Consumer or Landlord issue with water rates

clint_silver

this is either a consumer or renting issue so please move if wrong place, I thought maybe just this side of consumer affairs.

I have a rental property Im renting to tenants. I got the water application pack out to my residential house last night for the rental property. I called them up and said surely it should be going to rental property, they said to forward it to the tenants, no problem.

Now, I asked a few questions and found out that if the tenant doesn't register, the landlord then becomes liable. They said if they dont register then I have to make the case to water.ie to prove not only am I not living there and someone else IS by providing the tenants details.

Now not only is it not my duty to make them register but I cant be giving their details to water.ie (I have their PPS numbers for tax). Even if its potentially making me liable by not giving them. All Im comfortable doing is telling water.ie that Im not living there. its up to them after that.

How to proceed if it comes to it?
If I give water.ie their details then it becomes a LL/tenant issue and a data protection issue.
If I dont give the details then it becomes a consumer issue as water.ie come after me for the money and then a landlord/tenant issue as I got after the tenant.
More then likely the tenants will register as theyre quite decent but just in case, wondering what peoples views are.

Cabaal

Seems like a pretty crappy situation for landlords, I've nothing to suggest unfortunately but its an unfair situation for landlords without a doubt

weisses

Not a straightforward issue indeed

Maybe register it in your name and add the charge to the rent.

tricky one

BarryD

Messy alright as far as I can see - we have a child in student rental accomm, sharing with four others. Landlord has said they should register. It seems that one of them must register their names and then pay a proportion of the annual charge etc. But they'll all likely be gone from the property next May/ June and may well move somewhere else. Reads to me like Irish Water are creating a large amount of paperwork wrt these situations. Much simpler for the property owner to register, pay the bill and recoup whatever is fair from the tenants.

delahuntv

BarryD wrote: »

Messy alright as far as I can see - we have a child in student rental accomm, sharing with four others. Landlord has said they should register. It seems that one of them must register their names and then pay a proportion of the annual charge etc. But they'll all likely be gone from the property next May/ June and may well move somewhere else. Reads to me like Irish Water are creating a large amount of paperwork wrt these situations. Much simpler for the property owner to register, pay the bill and recoup whatever is fair from the tenants.

They should register the same way as the other utilities are registered and when they leave get a final bill and transfer it.

from what Irish Water were saying on radio yesterday, the meter itself keeps a record of the readings each month, so even if the van doesn't drive by til 15th December, the reading will be from 1st October - so the tenants won't be running the risk of paying for the new tenants bills is new tenant move in, but they do benefit for the household allowance.

If the landlord has to register, (and that can be done) no allowance applies, so the option is there, but the tenant pays extra.

So the choice is for the tenant - register in their own name and get their free allowances or have landlord register, no allowance and water added to the rental payment. (quite clever and beneficial to the landlord)

clint_silver

The esb play it perfectly, every rented property is registered as such. Bill switches to tenant after LL rings up at start of rental agreement and final reading is given at handover. LL is responsible for everything inbetween which is fair enough.
Tried, trusted, very little dispute that Ive ever heard of and none that Ive experienced over the years. Why have water.ie adopted any other approach?

Gonna take this up with them.

davo10

OP, I have rental properties just like you. I received the same letter from IW with PIN numbers for each property. The tenant contracts all have a clause about tenants responsibilities to pay for utilities at the property including electricity, phone etc. water is a utility now so I informed them all that they are required to register and pay. If they don't, it comes off the deposit.

slimjimmc

I think this is more suited to Accommodation & Property.

delahuntv

clint_silver wrote: »

The esb play it perfectly, every rented property is registered as such. Bill switches to tenant after LL rings up at start of rental agreement and final reading is given at handover. LL is responsible for everything inbetween which is fair enough.
Tried, trusted, very little dispute that Ive ever heard of and none that Ive experienced over the years. Why have water.ie adopted any other approach?

Gonna take this up with them.

Because the ESB don't give a free allowance. Water charge would revert to landlord once a tenant moves out, the exact same way ESB do it. With electricity the tenant also has a choice to go with energia, bord gais or airtricity.

With water, every rented property is also listed with landlord name - and it reverts to landlord name and unoccupied charge when tenants move out and no new ones move in. - So not that much different to ESB. But if tenants want their free allowance, it for them to register.

Landlord can ring on tenats behlf once LL has permission. AFAIK ESB also ask for PPS number for ID for tenant.

So choice is TOTALLY for landlord.

a. Bill landlord only, don't get free allowance.
b - give tenant details without tenant pps number. Tenant must pay but doesn't get free allowance.
c - give tenant detail with pps number - tenant will get free allowance and tenat will pay
d - let tenant ring and give their details and choose themselves whether to give pps number for free allowance or not.

The choice is entirely up to you and your tenant.

jaykayphd

Just been speaking with Irish Water myself. Their computer systems have been down all day so they could tell me very little. His advice was to threaten any non-paying tenants with a deduction from their deposit. He said that IW is different to the ESB of Bord Gais as they cannot cut the water off to non-paying tenants.

Its crazy that IW want the landlords to be their debt collectors.

delahuntv

jaykayphd wrote: »

Its crazy that IW want the landlords to be their debt collectors.

where does it say they are debt collectors? If tenant use electricity and the electricity account is in the landlord's name, the landlord pays.

Same with IW - If it is not in tenants name, then the LL will pay. if it is in tenants name, LL won't be responsible for the bills unless tenant does a runner. But that's the whole idea of a deposit, so that the bills attached to the property are paid and LL isn't left to pay.

For your own sake you should ensure that all utility bills are closed off and paid in full before returning a deposit, not just because Irish water say so. - That's how I did it in UK when I rented out a house there and that was the normal procedure.

emeldc

delahuntv wrote: »

where does it say they are debt collectors? If tenant use electricity and the electricity account is in the landlord's name, the landlord pays.

Same with IW - If it is not in tenants name, then the LL will pay. if it is in tenants name, LL won't be responsible for the bills unless tenant does a runner. But that's the whole idea of a deposit, so that the bills attached to the property are paid and LL isn't left to pay.

For your own sake you should ensure that all utility bills are closed off and paid in full before returning a deposit, not just because Irish water say so. - That's how I did it in UK when I rented out a house there and that was the normal procedure.

The normal utility bills are nothing to do with the landlord. They are the tenants responsibility. End of.

shruikan2553

delahuntv wrote: »

where does it say they are debt collectors? If tenant use electricity and the electricity account is in the landlord's name, the landlord pays.

Same with IW - If it is not in tenants name, then the LL will pay. if it is in tenants name, LL won't be responsible for the bills unless tenant does a runner. But that's the whole idea of a deposit, so that the bills attached to the property are paid and LL isn't left to pay.

For your own sake you should ensure that all utility bills are closed off and paid in full before returning a deposit, not just because Irish water say so. - That's how I did it in UK when I rented out a house there and that was the normal procedure.

If the previous tenant doesn't pay their bill with electric Ireland it is owed by the tenant only. I can come along, rent a place set up my account and pay my bills. It is the same for phone bills. The person who's bill it is owes the money. To expect the LL to cover it is treating them like debt collectors. Its not their debt.

emeldc

davo10 wrote: »

OP, I have rental properties just like you. I received the same letter from IW with PIN numbers for each property. The tenant contracts all have a clause about tenants responsibilities to pay for utilities at the property including electricity, phone etc. water is a utility now so I informed them all that they are required to register and pay. If they don't, it comes off the deposit.

Stopping money out of the deposit to cover bills should really only be done as a last resort. What if the tenant stays for two years or more. With the deposit all but wiped out the tenant would have nothing to lose and leave the house in sh1t.

Irish water have known about this issue for long enough and refused to deal with it. I'm fcuked if I'm paying for my tenants water. I'm sending back the pack with the tenants name on it with a note attached that I don't speak Polish. I'll let IW ask him to sign it.

on_my_oe

jaykayphd wrote: »

Its crazy that IW want the landlords to be their debt collectors.

I'd agree, but I'd also say that it's crazy that Revenue want tenants to be their debt collectors; if your landlord lives abroad and you're paying your rent directly to the landlords account, you are supposed to deduct 20% tax and transfer it to Revenue on behalf of your landlord. If the tenant doesn't they're liable for the tax owing. In reality, try doing that and your landlord will quickly punish you with a higher rent and/or notice to quit.

I could argue in the case of water bills landlords have a deposit to make deductions out of, but I know that both sides play games with deposits either making unjust deductions or using it as the last months rent.

My solution, whack a €10,000 minimum fine on unregistered rentals with property confiscation on the third offence making it more encouraging to register tenancies, then let PRTB data share with Irish Water and Revenue. That way the landlord isn't breaching data and we can pick up non tac compliant landlords in one swoop.

davo10

on_my_oe wrote: »

I'd agree, but I'd also say that it's crazy that Revenue want tenants to be their debt collectors; if your landlord lives abroad and you're paying your rent directly to the landlords account, you are supposed to deduct 20% tax and transfer it to Revenue on behalf of your landlord. If the tenant doesn't they're liable for the tax owing. In reality, try doing that and your landlord will quickly punish you with a higher rent and/or notice to quit.

I could argue in the case of water bills landlords have a deposit to make deductions out of, but I know that both sides play games with deposits either making unjust deductions or using it as the last months rent.

My solution, whack a €10,000 minimum fine on unregistered rentals with property confiscation on the third offence making it more encouraging to register tenancies, then let PRTB data share with Irish Water and Revenue. That way the landlord isn't breaching data and we can pick up non tac compliant landlords in one swoop.

Wow, and all OP asked was who is responsible for the water charge. The tenant is as it's a utility.

davo10

emeldc wrote: »

Stopping money out of the deposit to cover bills should really only be done as a last resort. What if the tenant stays for two years or more. With the deposit all but wiped out the tenant would have nothing to lose and leave the house in sh1t.

Irish water have known about this issue for long enough and refused to deal with it. I'm fcuked if I'm paying for my tenants water. I'm sending back the pack with the tenants name on it with a note attached that I don't speak Polish. I'll let IW ask him to sign it.

If the tenant doesn't register, then bill comes to LL's home address as the registered owner of the rental property. After the first bill, the ll can take whatever action is allowed, if it's in the tenants name and they don't pay, well IW have their PPS number so they can take appropriate action.

clint_silver

davo10 wrote: »

If the tenant doesn't register, then bill comes to LL's home address as the registered owner of the rental property. After the first bill, the ll can take whatever action is allowed, if it's in the tenants name and they don't pay, well IW have their PPS number so they can take appropriate action.

How do IW get the tenants PPS? Only way is if I give it. I dont care what the bill is, I'm not giving it to them. Data protection etc.

Like the electricity, my one and only interaction is to tell ESB I do own the house but I dont live there. someone else lives there. send the bill to the property with that persons name on it. if they dont pay it, you can do what you like with the bill but you dont send it to me, I have no liability for it as I didnt use any of the electricity from date X to date Y while the tenant was in the house.

What IW are saying is that if the tenant doesnt pay, I have to pay for their usage. And that aint happening. Obviously in unchartered territory but you can be damn sure in the next 3-4 years we'll see a court case where the LL was pursued by IW for the tenants bill.

The deposit is a non-runner. theyre good tenants, if they dont want to pay their utility bills, thats completely up to them. not their fault IW will come after me.

This all said, Im only talking scenarios here, Im pretty sure they will register.

Mc Kenzie

Im a tenant living in a landlord house. however people come and go here all the time. and i hope to go in the next 6 months. I for one am not registering mt details. as I know from a build up of old post in the house already of previous tenants that, if I register my details even after I leave no one will bother to put there details in replace of mine. And it will be on my name for god only knows how long even i

Mc Kenzie

Im a tenant living in a landlord house. however people come and go here all the time. and i hope to go in the next 6 months. I for one am not registering mt details. as I know from a build up of old post in the house already of previous tenants that, if I register my details even after I leave no one will bother to put there details in replace of mine. And it will be on my name for god only knows how long even after I leave.

I feel water is a right and the government in this country are using this as another excuse to scrape out of my wage every month if they dont already take enough with nothing in return.

I must say in the U.K you pay a considerable amount of tax HOWEVER you actually get FREE health care. Free doctors. Free prescription medication.
Free family planning. You actually see where your moneys going.

Will we ever see where our money is going in this country ..??

clint_silver

Mc Kenzie wrote: »

Im a tenant living in a landlord house. however people come and go here all the time. and i hope to go in the next 6 months. I for one am not registering mt details. as I know from a build up of old post in the house already of previous tenants that, if I register my details even after I leave no one will bother to put there details in replace of mine. And it will be on my name for god only knows how long even i

As a matter of interest then how do you or the other tenants intend paying for the water? not for a second implying you wont, its completely your own business whether you do or not, but if you have agreed, what is that agreement?

Having really just found this out, I'll be making it a condition when renting out in future that the tenant DOES register or if they dont want to register, the contract will state I can give IW the PPS and details if they ask me for them. whether they want to pay or not after that is their own business but IW wont be coming after me for the renters bill once they know the PPs of the person in there.

clint_silver

Mc Kenzie wrote: »

Im a tenant living in a landlord house. however people come and go here all the time. and i hope to go in the next 6 months. I for one am not registering mt details. as I know from a build up of old post in the house already of previous tenants that, if I register my details even after I leave no one will bother to put there details in replace of mine. And it will be on my name for god only knows how long even after I leave.

I feel water is a right and the government in this country are using this as another excuse to scrape out of my wage every month if they dont already take enough with nothing in return.

I must say in the U.K you pay a considerable amount of tax HOWEVER you actually get FREE health care. Free doctors. Free prescription medication.
Free family planning. You actually see where your moneys going.

Will we ever see where our money is going in this country ..??

you dont get free water though. Average bill is 550 a year over there (read that last week). Irish water are getting the money from the charge here, not the govt. -edited for clarity

as for the money you pay here in taxes? You can look up the dept of finance website and its there somewhere where all the money goes.

emeldc

Mc Kenzie wrote: »

Im a tenant living in a landlord house. however people come and go here all the time. and i hope to go in the next 6 months. I for one am not registering mt details. as I know from a build up of old post in the house already of previous tenants that, if I register my details even after I leave no one will bother to put there details in replace of mine. And it will be on my name for god only knows how long even after I leave.

I feel water is a right and the government in this country are using this as another excuse to scrape out of my wage every month if they dont already take enough with nothing in return.

I must say in the U.K you pay a considerable amount of tax HOWEVER you actually get FREE health care. Free doctors. Free prescription medication.
Free family planning. You actually see where your moneys going.

Will we ever see where our money is going in this country ..??

But when you leave, you just tell IW that you are moving out, just like you would with the ESB or Bord Gais, or do you intend not paying them either.

Gatling

clint_silver wrote: »

As a matter of interest then how do you or the other tenants intend paying for the water? not for a second implying you wont, its completely your own business whether you do or not, but if you have agreed, what is that agreement?

Having really just found this out, I'll be making it a condition when renting out in future that the tenant DOES register or if they dont want to register, the contract will state I can give IW the PPS and details if they ask me for them. whether they want to pay or not after that is their own business but IW wont be coming after me for the renters bill once they know the PPs of the person in there.

Will data protection and the PTRB allow you to pass on someone's pps numbers

davo10

clint_silver wrote: »

How do IW get the tenants PPS? Only way is if I give it. I dont care what the bill is, I'm not giving it to them. Data protection etc.

Read the post again. "If it's in the tenants name" ie the tenant registers and gives their own PPS, and then doesn't pay ........

Gatling

davo10 wrote: »

Read the post again. "If it's in the tenants name" ie the tenant registers and gives their own PPS, and then doesn't pay ........

That's there personal and private decisions to make

clint_silver

Gatling wrote: »

That's there personal and private decisions to make

yes, what Im proposing is that when tenants sign rental contract that there be a clause that allows me to give IW their PPS/details if they (the tenants) decide not to register. If they dont register and dont sign that contract then I cant give IW their details and Im then liable for their water charge but they then also dont get to move in.

They can still not pay, but IW now have confirmed details of the tenant that is there so Im in the clear. thats my understanding of it.

davo10

Gatling wrote: »

That's there personal and private decisions to make

Of course, and by registering the debt follows them and not the ll just like an electricity bill. Like an electricity sign up, soon enough a deposit will have to be paid to IW by tenants.

Gatling

clint_silver wrote: »

yes, what Im proposing is that when tenants sign rental contract that there be a clause that allows me to give IW their PPS/details if they (the tenants) decide not to register. If they dont register and dont sign that contract then I cant give IW their details and Im then liable for their water charge but they then also dont get to move in.

They can still not pay, but IW now have confirmed details of the tenant that is there so Im in the clear. thats my understanding of it.

You cannot do that under any law concerning data protection and privacy

Its already been stated publicly that landlords will not be held responsible for tenants not paying
,

At this rate you could possibly end up with several costly legal actions

Marcusm

Cabaal wrote: »

Seems like a pretty crappy situation for landlords, I've nothing to suggest unfortunately but its an unfair situation for landlords without a doubt

HArdly that difficult a situation, provide the details of the registered tenant to Irish Water. The pack will then be issued in their name and they will have to deal with it. Anything else is plainly silly.

Marcusm

clint_silver wrote: »

How do IW get the tenants PPS? Only way is if I give it. I dont care what the bill is, I'm not giving it to them. Data protection etc.

Why would you have a data protection issue? A data controller must collect and use information 9(including its disclosure) in accordance with the purpose for which it is collected. You have collected the data in connection witht he letting of the property and you would be disclosing that data in a manner consistent with your responsibilities. I've had landlords provide my details to electricity and gas suppliers in the past; why do you think this is different? Mountain out of molehill.