Pir & Table Lamp

danjo-xx

Is there any way to have an outside pir unit control a plug in table lamp.

not interested in wireless yokes to do this.:)

Par1

danjo-xx wrote: »

Is there any way to have an outside pir unit control a plug in table lamp.

not interested in wireless yokes to do this.:)

You can have an outside pir no problem then in the house you could have an additional socket solely that the pir activates. PIR's can give a lot of nuisance switching. If its for security you could use a plug in timer then plug the lamp into that and alternate the times accordingly.

2011

danjo-xx wrote: »

not interested in wireless yokes to do this.:)

Why?
This would be the most cost effective, neatest and easiest way to do it.

danjo-xx

2011 wrote: »

Why?
This would be the most cost effective, neatest and easiest way to do it.

A few years back bought one of theses http://www.wirelesslightingstore.com/garden-outdoor/remote-control-outdoor-pir-indoor-remote-socket.html

It was the only thing available, and a bugger to pair socket with pir. The pir eventually got wet and damp inside.

Are there any quality ones available these days that are reliable.

You can have an outside pir no problem then in the house you could have an additional socket solely that the pir activates. PIR's can give a lot of nuisance switching. If its for security you could use a plug in timer then plug the lamp into that and alternate the times accordingly.

yeah for security. I just like the idea of having a pir unit outside cos when it detects intruder light will come on inside kitchen as if someone has just walked in and people are still up.

Par1

Its personal choice really, if you do decide to get the wireless one then mount it in a position where its easily accessible to replace battery's. depending on how many times the PIR activates - the battery's may not last long.

Its a tricky decision but if i had the money and i could wire it discreetly then id choose that over wireless...good luck!

2011

Par1 wrote: »

Its personal choice really, if you do decide to get the wireless one then mount it in a position where its easily accessible to replace battery's. depending on how many times the PIR activates - the battery's may not last long.

A battery like this tends to last for over a year from my experience (using Stinel wireless PIR):



Wireless also gives you the option of easily moving the PIR to a more effective position and the possibility of adding additional devices if required at a future date (such as key fob,or more PIRs).

danjo-xx

External Pir Sensor.... to >>>>>> Plug in table Lamp... is this do-able at all, how could it be wired, would some intermediate box be required between socket and plug.

2011

danjo-xx wrote: »

External Pir Sensor.... to >>>>>> Plug in table Lamp... is this do-able at all, how could it be wired, would some intermediate box be required between socket and plug.

It is quite simple.

Fit a IMPULSER Receiver FE 8100 on the lead that feeds the lamp. This device will activate when it gets a signal from the IMPULSER Transmitter IS-FS 300 or a signal from a IMPULSER Transmitter wireless hand-held transmitter RC 400 or both.

danjo-xx

2011 wrote: »

It is quite simple.

Fit a IMPULSER Receiver FE 8100 on the lead that feeds the lamp. This device will activate when it gets a signal from the IMPULSER Transmitter IS-FS 300 or a signal from a IMPULSER Transmitter wireless hand-held transmitter RC 400 or both.

thanks 2011 but is there anyway to hard wire this instead of going the wireless route.

2011

danjo-xx wrote: »

thanks 2011 but is there anyway to hard wire this instead of going the wireless route.

Yes of course there is.
Simply get a PIR to switch a contractor that feeds the appropriate socket. The contractor should be rated for at least the same current as the MCB protecting the socket circuit. I am struggling to see the advantage though.

danjo-xx

2011 wrote: »

Yes of course there is.
Simply get a PIR to switch a contractor that feeds the appropriate socket..

you've lost be there, whats a contractor or did you mean contactor, either way I'm lost.:)

2011

danjo-xx wrote: »

you've lost be there, whats a contractor or did you mean contactor, either way I'm lost.:)

Cruse you iPhone 6 :mad::mad:

I mean:

Simply get a PIR to switch a contractor contactor that feeds the appropriate socket. The contractor contactor should be rated for at least the same current as the MCB protecting the socket circuit. I am struggling to see the advantage though.

Par1

2011 wrote: »

A battery like this tends to last for over a year from my experience (using Stinel wireless PIR):



Wireless also gives you the option of easily moving the PIR to a more effective position and the possibility of adding additional devices if required at a future date (such as key fob,or more PIRs).

I didnt realise they could last that long that's excellent performance, im a big fan of Steinel they are a quality brand.

Par1

2011 wrote: »

Cruse you iPhone 6 :mad::mad:

I mean:

Simply get a PIR to switch a contractor contactor that feeds the appropriate socket. The contractor contactor should be rated for at least the same current as the MCB protecting the socket circuit. I am struggling to see the advantage though.

Would you need a contactor?

2011

Par1 wrote: »

Would you need a contactor?

Yes, if you want to switch a socket circuit that is protected by a 16 or 20A MCB. Unless you can find a PIR that is rated for switching s current that large.

Par1

2011 wrote: »

Yes, if you want to switch a socket circuit that is protected by a 16 or 20A MCB. Unless you can find a PIR that is rated for switching s current that large.

The PIR can only draw its rated current, what has 16 or 20 amps got to do with PIR ? Hes running a table lamp max 100 watt lamp id imagine 2-2.5 amps max...no contactor needed in my opinion

2011

Par1 wrote: »

The PIR can only draw its rated current, what has 16 or 20 amps got to do with PIR ? Hes running a table lamp max 100 watt lamp id imagine 2-2.5 amps max...no contactor needed in my opinion

As I said in my last post:
It is required "if you want to switch a socket circuit that is protected by a 16 or 20A MCB. "

Are you suggesting that it is acceptable to protect a device that can switch less than 10 amps with a 20A MCB?

Have a look at 133 page 7 of ET101.

Par1

2011 wrote: »

As I said in my last post:
It is required "if you want to switch a socket circuit that is protected by a 16 or 20A MCB. "

Are you suggesting that it is acceptable to protect a device that can switch less than 10 amps with a 20A MCB?

Have a look at 133 page 7 of ET101.

Why would he want to switch a socket circuit? he never mentioned that he wants to mount a pir on a wall and plug the receiver into a socket..is that correct or have i mis understood the post?

The lamp is protected by the fuse in its plugtop and the socket and cable feeding it are protected by the MCB

What has 133 page 7 of ET101 got to do with plugging a table lamp into a socket. I dont have that to hand, please advise ...does it say use a contactor when you want to plug a plug into a socket?

2011

Par1 wrote: »

Why would he want to switch a socket circuit?

Because a hard wired PIR would be best as part of fixed wiring.
In my post I said "Yes, if you want to switch a socket circuit that is protected by a 16 or 20A MCB. Unless you can find a PIR that is rated for switching s current that large."

The lamp is protected by the fuse in its plugtop and the socket and cable feeding it are protected by the MCB

then you would be feeding a PIR in the garden from a plug. OK for a temporary job but not good practice for long term use.

What has 133 page 7 of ET101 got to do with plugging a table lamp into a socket.

133 is about the "Selection of electrical equipment".
Here is one applicable quote from this section:
"All electrical equipment shall be selected for the maximum sustained current (r.m.s. value for a.c.) which is has to carry in normal service."

In the case of a socket circuit protected by a 20A MCB that would be a 20A contact or a PIR that can switch 20A. I would consider feeding a mains voltage PIR on a permanent basis from a plug top as a bad practice and it would look pretty ugly.

However you are right, it could be done if you could live with it. I don't think a qualified electrician would be proud of it though

Par1

2011 wrote: »

Because a hard wired PIR would be best as part of fixed wiring.
In my post I said "Yes, if you want to switch a socket circuit that is protected by a 16 or 20A MCB. Unless you can find a PIR that is rated for switching s current that large."



then you would be feeding a PIR in the garden from a plug. OK for a temporary job but not good practice for long term use.



133 is about the "Selection of electrical equipment".
Here is one applicable quote from this section:
"All electrical equipment shall be selected for the maximum sustained current (r.m.s. value for a.c.) which is has to carry in normal service."

In the case of a socket circuit protected by a 20A MCB that would be a 20A contact or a PIR that can switch 20A. I would consider feeding a mains voltage PIR on a permanent basis from a plug top as a bad practice and it would look pretty ugly.

However you are right, it could be done if you could live with it. I don't think a qualified electrician would be proud of it though

Sorry i just dont understand why he would want a switch as he requires it to be automatic for when someone calls to the door and if hes not there or in bed they will think someone is home (All automatic)

He could fit a fused spurto the socket if permitted i.e type of socket circuit

The equipment is rated for the voltage 230 (ok) from what i can see and also the unit can only switch a load of 1 Kw resistive/Incan or 500w inductive so it will never draw 20 amps under normal conditons.

2011

Par1 wrote: »

He could fit a fused spurto the socket if permitted i.e type of socket circuit

Agreed, this would work.
There are many ways to skin a cat, but the PIR would not only be switching part of circuit so my answer would not apply.

However there are disadvantages to doing it this way such as:
1) If the OP wanted to transfer the PIR to switch a different circuit it would be very simple if the PIR was wired to a contactor in the distribution board.
2) Issues with volt drop would be increased. As the PIR is feeding a socket a 2.5 sq. cable (minimum size, depends on lenght of run) would have to be run to the PIR dramatically increasing cost.
3) ELV (12 or 24V) PIRs could not be used. These PIRs have many advantages such as far cheaper and more discreet cabling as well as the obvious safety concerns with mains voltage simply do not apply.


From a design perspective installing a contactor would be considered far better practice.

The equipment is rated for the voltage 230 (ok) from what i can see and also the unit can only switch a load of 1 Kw resistive/Incan or 500w inductive so it will never draw 20 amps under normal conditons.

How can you possibly guarantee that nobody will ever plug a 3kW load (such as a kettle) into that socket and destroy the PIR??

The maximum sustained current in the case of a circuit protected by a 20A MCB is 20A when switching the entire circuit (which is the case in the answer that I provided).

This is why a cooker circuit protected by a 40A MCB can not have a 20A isolation switch even if the load is only 10A.

Par1

2011 wrote: »

Agreed, this would work.
There are many ways to skin a cat, but the PIR would not only be switching part of circuit so my answer would not apply.

However there are disadvantages to doing it this way such as:
1) If the OP wanted to transfer the PIR to switch a different circuit it would be very simple if the PIR was wired to a contactor in the distribution board.
2) Issues with volt drop would be increased. As the PIR is feeding a socket a 2.5 sq. cable (minimum size, depends on lenght of run) would have to be run to the PIR dramatically increasing cost.
3) ELV (12 or 24V) PIRs could not be used. These PIRs have many advantages such as far cheaper and more discreet cabling as well as the obvious safety concerns with mains voltage simply do not apply.


From a design perspective installing a contactor would be considered far better practice.



How can you possibly guarantee that nobody will ever plug a 3kW load (such as a kettle) into that socket and destroy the PIR??

The maximum sustained current in the case of a circuit protected by a 20A MCB is 20A when switching the entire circuit (which is the case in the answer that I provided).

This is why a cooker circuit protected by a 40A MCB can not have a 20A isolation switch even if the load is only 10A.

Your getting off the topic here his original post stated one table lamp therefore we should best advise on that (1 lamp). He said the pir would be controlling 1 table lamp possible in the kitchen so for a run of 2.5 in a standard house to the kitchen - the volt drop is No issue atall. He mentioned nothing about ELV so therefore to keep costs to a minimum (for his 1 lamp) id advise a standard PIR and relavent acessories with no contactor (not needed).

You are getting completely off topic here by asking ' How can you possibly guarantee that nobody will ever plug a 3kW load (such as a kettle) into that socket and destroy the PIR??

Again he did not say he is going to plug a kettle in beside the lamp this is ridiculous to just assume that. If that were the case should we also just assume he is going to go down to Mcquillins and buy 25 welders and plug them into every socket in the house just in-case he decides to take up welding and might want to weld in every room in his house??.... if that were the case he would need a few more contactors.

Diversity has to be taken into account...along with common sense.

You also stated 'The maximum sustained current in the case of a circuit protected by a 20A MCB is 20A when switching the entire circuit (which is the case in the answer that I provided). ..Why is the main sw fuse only 63 amps if every circuit protected by a 20 amp MCB needs 20 amps? if we have 50 sockets have we now to ask esb for 1000amp supply just incase we need to switch our socket circuits or do we just wire in contactors like you suggest?

This topic is getting silly, lets move on as the guy has enough info to make a decision by now

2011

Par1 wrote: »

Your getting off the topic here his original post stated one table lamp therefore we should best advise on that (1 lamp).

The OP said "is there any way to have an outside pir unit control a plug in table lamp." A plug in table lamp requires a socket. Therefore all regulations that apply to sockets must be adhered to to comply with the regulations.

He said the pir would be controlling 1 table lamp possible in the kitchen so for a run of 2.5 in a standard house to the kitchen - the volt drop is No issue atall.

Agreed, the volt drop within the house is likely to be negligible. But when you add to this the volt drop of the cable run from the house to the PIR (somewhere in the garden) and back again it could be substantial. To comply with regulations volt drop must be taken into account when designing a circuit.

He mentioned nothing about ELV so therefore to keep costs to a minimum (for his 1 lamp) id advise a standard PIR and relavent acessories with no contactor (not needed).

I suggested the ELV for the reasons given, mainly cost, neatness and safety. I am assuming that the OP has limited electrical experience hence the suggestion.

You are getting completely off topic here by asking ' How can you possibly guarantee that nobody will ever plug a 3kW load (such as a kettle) into that socket and destroy the PIR??

It is not permitted to ignore regulations on the basis that you can predict what may be or may not be plugged into a socket.

If that were the case should we also just assume he is going to go down to Mcquillins and buy 25 welders and plug them into every socket in the house just in-case he decides to take up welding and might want to weld in every room in his house??.... if that were the case he would need a few more contactors.

If the regulations are adhered to this action these actions would not be dangerous. Besides contactors would change nothing in this example.

Diversity has to be taken into account...along with common sense.

Most non-technical people assume that when they see a 13A socket outlet they can insert a 13A plug into it. To them this is common sense. This is why there are regulations that clearly state what the minimum standards for socket circuits are.

Your suggestion is to ignore these regulations?

You also stated 'The maximum sustained current in the case of a circuit protected by a 20A MCB is 20A when switching the entire circuit (which is the case in the answer that I provided)..Why is the main sw fuse only 63 amps if every circuit protected by a 20 amp MCB needs 20 amps?

You are trying to use theory about diversity to justify ignoring section 133 of ET101. Diversity factors are applied to calculate demand, maximum import currents etc. From this design currents are calculated, protective devices selected from this the minimum rating of all switching devices can be selected (in that order). It is not used to derate switching device ratings. This is simply decide by observing the rating of the upstream protective device.

Here is a direct quotation of from this section that you have choose to ignore:
"All electrical equipment shall be selected for the maximum sustained current (r.m.s. value for a.c.) which is has to carry in normal service."

Please explain how you can justify ignoring this?

if we have 50 sockets have we now to ask esb for 1000amp supply just incase we need to switch our socket circuits or do we just wire in contactors like you suggest?

I suggest that when switching a current of up to 20A that the device that does the switching must be rated for the maximum possible current of 20A.
This is very basic stuff.

2011

Par1, I feel that you are taking my replies out of context.
My position is that a contactor would only be required if switching the entire circuit (rather than just the lamp).
I have already agreed with you (post 21) that if the lamp was fed from a spur outlet it would not be required.
So I agree that a contactor is avoidable, but my preference would be to switch an entire circuit and install one for the reasons given.

Par1

The OP said "is there any way to have an outside pir unit control a plug in table lamp." A plug in table lamp requires a socket. Therefore all regulations that apply to sockets must be adhered to to comply with the regulations.

Agreed


Agreed, the volt drop within the house is likely to be negligible. But when you add to this the volt drop of the cable run from the house to the PIR (somewhere in the garden) and back again it could be substantial. To comply with regulations volt drop must be taken into account when designing a circuit -

Agreed

I suggested the ELV for the reasons given, mainly cost, neatness and safety. I am assuming that the OP has limited electrical experience hence the suggestion -

He specifically asked for wired not wireless or ELV. So ELV or associated equipment (including Contactor) not asked for

It is not permitted to ignore regulations on the basis that you can predict what may be or may not be plugged into a socket -

The main socket is still rated at 20 amp, a flex and fused plugtop feeds PIR then returns into a specific trailing socket suited and rated for PIR setup.


If the regulations are adhered to this action these actions would not be dangerous. Besides contactors would change nothing in this example -

This example was used to illustrate the use of diversity factor

Most non-technical people assume that when they see a 13A socket outlet they can insert a 13A plug into it. To them this is common sense. This is why there are regulations that clearly state what the minimum standards for socket circuits are -

I have not ignored those regulations in any way


You are trying to use theory about diversity to justify ignoring section 133 of ET101. Here is a direct quotation of from this section that you have choose to ignore:
"All electrical equipment shall be selected for the maximum sustained current (r.m.s. value for a.c.) which is has to carry in normal service."
Please explain how you can justify ignoring this? -

Again i have not ignored this. il say it again The main socket is still rated at 20 amp, a flex and fused plugtop feeds PIR then returns into a specific trailing socket suited and rated for PIR setup.

I suggest that when switching a current of up to 20A that the device that does the switching must be rated for the maximum possible current of 20A.
This is very basic stuff -

Agreed.

2011

Par1 wrote: »

He specifically asked for wired not wireless or ELV. So ELV or associated equipment (including Contactor) not asked for

Incorrect, ELV and contactor was not ruled out only wireless was.

The main socket is still rated at 20 amp, a flex and fused plugtop feeds PIR then returns into a specific trailing socket suited and rated for PIR setup.

Which although a bit of a gunter would work & comply with the regulations as already acknowledged in post 21.

This example was used to illustrate the use of diversity factor

Diversity factor has noting to do with rating of switches, the upstream protective device does.

I have not ignored those regulations in any way

If you are suggesting using a PIR to switch a load when the upstream protective device is a 20A MCB then you are ignoring the regulation that I quoted.

If you are suggesting switching a load when the upstream protective device is a plug top fuse or spur outlet fuse (of say 3A) then I have already agreed that this would be inline with the regualtions (although not very professional).

Again i have not ignored this. il say it again The main socket is still rated at 20 amp, a flex and fused plugtop feeds PIR then returns into a specific trailing socket suited and rated for PIR setup.

I suggest that you read post 21 where I agree with you if it is wired in the way you suggest, then read post 16 where I clearly state that the contactor is only required for switching the entire circuit.

Par1

2011 wrote: »

Incorrect, ELV and contactor was not ruled out only wireless was.



Which although a bit of a gunter would work & comply with the regulations as already acknowledged in post 21.



Diversity factor has noting to do with rating of switches, the upstream protective device does.



If you are suggesting using a PIR to switch a load when the upstream protective device is a 20A MCB then you are ignoring the regulation that I quoted.

If you are suggesting switching a load when the upstream protective device is a plug top fuse or spur outlet fuse (of say 3A) then I have already agreed that this would be inline with the regualtions (although not very professional).



I suggest that you read post 21 where I agree with you if it is wired in the way you suggest, then read post 16 where I clearly state that the contactor is only required for switching the entire circuit.

All agreed with me...great posts thank you.

2011

Par1 wrote: »

All agreed with me...great posts thank you.

You are welcome

danjo-xx

thank god peace has broken out, thought i had started WW3 there:D

Par1

danjo-xx wrote: »

thank god peace has broken out, thought i had started WW3 there:D

Haha...not at all. Myself and 2011 were only throwing ideas and opinions to and from, hopefully people learned a bit about PIR's and table lamps from us !!

danjo-xx

I just wanted a simple answer, not a course in electronics:D

thanks lads.