Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

Johner

RQ2013 wrote: »

Deserves his start.... Has been quality for the last while

Is the Spain match on tv?

Yep, Sky Sports 5.

Larry Wildman

Terrible miss there from Rooney.

Lord TSC

Jeez, I'd hate to lose Mata but I'd worry for my health if we lost De Gea.

Only slight silver lining would be that, in a world where Suarez and Bale are going for such massive prices, and knowing how Real love to splash the cash on their new toys, I'd expect....oh, at least 150m for De Gea :pac:

SherlockWatson

Nuts102 wrote: »

I think you will find he drops so deep because of having such a poor midfield to provide service.

Dropping as deep as your corner flag to win the ball is a little bit different than dropping a bit deeper to get involved in the game.

Nuts102 wrote: »

Mata and Kagawa natural 10's also were forced to play way too deep and suffered.

There's a difference between playing deep and dropping as deep as your corner flag to win the ball back, which is ok as a Striker or No.9, but I'd prefer if my #10 wasn't wasted doing donkey work defensively.

Nuts102 wrote: »

For someone who is supposedly woefully out of position for counter's his goal and assist ratio is phenomenal. Can only imagine what it would be if he didn't track back.

That's because he spends the majority of his time playing as a Striker.

Are you actually trying to say that when he chases back to win the ball at the corner flag, that he isn't then out of position??


Also, I saw you previously say that I've let my dislike for Rooney cloud my judgement, this isn't true, I actually like Rooney and it sickens me to see the abuse he receives from England fans even when he bails them out in games like tonight.

Please don't change the facts to suit the narrative, I quite like Rooney, but he is not a great #10.

SherlockWatson

Must say I've enjoyed this International break so far, enjoyable games that i've seen so far.

thelad95

SherlockWatson wrote: »

Must say I've enjoyed this International break so far, enjoyable games that i've seen so far.

You are literally the first person in history to say that.

Liam O

SherlockWatson wrote: »

Dropping as deep as your corner flag to win the ball is a little bit different than dropping a bit deeper to get involved in the game.



There's a difference between playing deep and dropping as deep as your corner flag to win the ball back, which is ok as a Striker or No.9, but I'd prefer if my #10 wasn't wasted doing donkey work defensively.



That's because he spends the majority of his time playing as a Striker.

Are you actually trying to say that when he chases back to win the ball at the corner flag, that he isn't then out of position??


Also, I saw you previously say that I've let my dislike for Rooney cloud my judgement, this isn't true, I actually like Rooney and it sickens me to see the abuse he receives from England fans even when he bails them out in games like tonight.

Please don't change the facts to suit the narrative, I quite like Rooney, but he is not a great #10.

When you are playing with 2 strikers the person behind them can't be lazy imo. Coutinho struggled with it at Liverpool last season and Mata is yet to look his best when played this season. Rooney is rarely tracking back down the field these days at all I find but in terms of pressing opponents I don't think it's any contest between him and Mata. I don't like LVG's system one bit so far as I think there are better ones for the players at the club but as it is, as much as it annoys me, Rooney is better for the position than Mata.

I would however hope that Mata will take Herrera's spot but with difficult games coming up I'd doubt it.

SherlockWatson

thelad95 wrote: »

You are literally the first person in history to say that.

:pac:

Normally I agree but I've enjoyed this window, happy to let our players have time to come back from injury as well!

ElChe32

SherlockWatson wrote: »

Must say I've enjoyed this International break so far, enjoyable games that i've seen so far.

Timmyctc

thelad95 wrote: »

You are literally the first person in history to say that.

Haven't loads of people said its a well needed Intl. break because of all our injuries? I'm almost certain I read that on here as well as twitter and such.

RobertKK

Yeah the break suits United to get players back before we play the bigger names.
Once none get injured in the meantime.

SherlockWatson

ElChe32 wrote: »

Can't be arsed to go find a picture for you, so I'll just use your own as it suits.

Giggsy11

Liam O wrote: »

When you are playing with 2 strikers the person behind them can't be lazy imo. Coutinho struggled with it at Liverpool last season and Mata is yet to look his best when played this season. Rooney is rarely tracking back down the field these days at all I find but in terms of pressing opponents I don't think it's any contest between him and Mata. I don't like LVG's system one bit so far as I think there are better ones for the players at the club but as it is, as much as it annoys me, Rooney is better for the position than Mata.

I would however hope that Mata will take Herrera's spot but with difficult games coming up I'd doubt it.

End up playing with Mata, Rooney, Di Maria and Blind in the midfield?

Pro. F

SherlockWatson wrote: »

Dropping as deep as your corner flag to win the ball is a little bit different than dropping a bit deeper to get involved in the game.

There's a difference between playing deep and dropping as deep as your corner flag to win the ball back, which is ok as a Striker or No.9, but I'd prefer if my #10 wasn't wasted doing donkey work defensively.

That's because he spends the majority of his time playing as a Striker.

Are you actually trying to say that when he chases back to win the ball at the corner flag, that he isn't then out of position??

Also, I saw you previously say that I've let my dislike for Rooney cloud my judgement, this isn't true, I actually like Rooney and it sickens me to see the abuse he receives from England fans even when he bails them out in games like tonight.

Please don't change the facts to suit the narrative, I quite like Rooney, but he is not a great #10.

I agree that Rooney lacks the close control to make him a great 10 (although I think he might work really well in this particular system LVG is building), but I think the criticism of his positioning is wrong. I think if you compare how many times Rooney receives the ball in the final third that he beats Mata (and any other forward at United) consistently. And I doubt any other 10 you might want to bring to the club would out do him in that category.

thelad95

The international break did come at a good time for us, allowing some key players a 'free week' in their recovery from injury but has it been enjoyable? No.

Nalz

thelad95 wrote: »

The international break did come at a good time for us, allowing some key players a 'free week' in their recovery from injury but has it been enjoyable? No.

how many games did you watch? I kinda enjoyed it

alchemist33

Trilla wrote: »

how many games did you watch? I kinda enjoyed it

The spreading out of games is a good idea. It almost makes the international break an event.



Almost.

keane2097

Pro. F wrote: »

I agree that Rooney lacks the close control to make him a great 10 (although I think he might work really well in this particular system LVG is building), but I think the criticism of his positioning is wrong. I think if you compare how many times Rooney receives the ball in the final third that he beats Mata (and any other forward at United) consistently. And I doubt any other 10 you might want to bring to the club would out do him in that category.

I would guess that if you normalised those receiving the ball stats to take out instances of receiving the ball on the touchline the results might look a fair bit different.

Having said that, I haven't checked and probably won't so...

SherlockWatson

thelad95 wrote: »

The international break did come at a good time for us, allowing some key players a 'free week' in their recovery from injury but has it been enjoyable? No.

Sorry, you don't enjoy watching football clearly, my bad.

IvySlayer

United don't play until Monday

Giggsy11

IvySlayer wrote: »

United don't play until Monday

Good that our game is on monday. Would have missed if it was on weekend.

The Moldy Gowl

IvySlayer wrote: »

United don't play until Monday

Being so close to a Tuesday is giving me vertigo.

BloodBath

I don't get all the love for Mata in here. Rooney has been an absolute powerhouse for us so many times throughout his career. Mata has not had many great displays since he joined us.

You can blame this on Moyes or playing him out of position but even in his best position behind 2 strikers he's been pretty ineffective so far.

Not many touches, key passes or overall work in the games he's played. He's simply is not doing enough.

You can say oh a number 10 is all about the passing and it's ok if he's poor defensively but that's not true especially when we are playing 2 forwards and especially when he isn't doing enough in the area he's strongest in to make up for how weak he is in other areas.

Mata's dribbling is also very poor, he doesn't take on and beat players ever which is something you would expect from a good 10. His passing is the only good part of his game imo.

Van Gaal seems to be going with a diamond formation in midfield of which the 10 is the forward tip. That means the 10 has to track back and keep that shape with the midfield and to cover if any of the others leave gaping gaps while they push forward. He isn't free to just hang around up front like he would be with a single striker which is what would suit Mata best imo.

As usual we're trying to fit square pegs into round holes but if Mata was better in other areas it wouldn't be an issue. You can't build the team around 1 players strengths.

beno619

BloodBath wrote:

I don't get all the love for Mata in here. Rooney has been an absolute powerhouse for us so many times throughout his career. Mata has not had many great displays since he joined us.

Rooney has never been a great #10, Mata has at one time had a claim to being the best in the world in that position.

beno619

BloodBath wrote:

I don't get all the love for Mata in here. Rooney has been an absolute powerhouse for us so many times throughout his career. Mata has not had many great displays since he joined us.

Rooney has never been a great #10, Mata has at one time had a claim to being the best in the world in that position.

Billy86

Liam O wrote: »

I would however hope that Mata will take Herrera's spot but with difficult games coming up I'd doubt it.

You want Mata to play as a two way midfielder in place of possibly our best player not named Di Maria over the last 3 or so games?

BloodBath wrote: »

[Mata's] passing is the only good part of his game imo.

You forgot goalscoring. Since he got going in March he has averaged a goal every 108 minutes for us despite spending some time in wide areas. At that rate if he played 30 full games for us over the season he would wind up with 25 goals.

BloodBath

I'm not saying Rooney is amazing either. The reality is neither player is great for the role expected of them in that formation but Rooney has more to his game than Mata does which is why he gets selected ahead of him there.

Mata will get a couple more games to prove himself there at least but he will be back on the bench when Rooney returns from suspension. It's going to take a change in formation to fit both of them into the team.

I think Rooney could easily slot into Herreras position in midfield though as the RM and do an excellent job there but then Herrera get's left out. Rooney tends to loiter around these areas anyway. It's not a bad problem to have at least and with injuries/suspensions and more competitions they should all get decent game time.

You forgot goalscoring. Since he got going in March he has averaged a goal every 108 minutes for us despite spending some time in wide areas. At that rate if he played 30 full games for us over the season he would wind up with 25 goals.

That's not how it works, sorry.

irishfeen

SAF talking on MUTV now for the first time (I think) since he retired.... I hope we hear him talk about David Moyes..

Blue giant

beno619 wrote: »

Rooney has never been a great #10, Mata has at one time had a claim to being the best in the world in that position.

Wouldn't go as far as claiming he was the best in the world. Good certainly but would have never been the very best in the world.

Rayne Wooney

I don't think anyone who understands the point of the positions would argue that Mata isn't a far better number 10 than Rooney

The thing is Rooney's talent can see him score a ton of goals from any attacking position he plays so he's pretty much unplayable, you have to have him on the pitch somewhere, and his work rate is immense

Billy86

Seriously lads... Mata as a two way midfielder?

Sure we might as well try Rafael out as CB and Falcao at FB while we're at it.

irishfeen

"No doubt in my mind that LVG will sort things out [At United]" SAF

Mars Bar

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I don't think anyone who understands the point of the positions would argue that Mata isn't a far better number 10 than Rooney

The thing is Rooney's talent can see him score a ton of goals from any attacking position he plays so he's pretty much unplayable, you have to have him on the pitch somewhere, and his work rate is immense
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surely that would make him undroppable? Not unplayable!

irishfeen

"I got annoyed when we lost to Liverpool - didn't like that" SAF

Billy86

BloodBath wrote: »

That's not how it works, sorry.

You said he is only good at passing, nothing else. Yet at a goal every 108 minutes I am pretty sure he I has been our most prolific player since he got going in March, and scored 32 goals in two seasons playing for Chelsea playing as an AM/10, including 20 in his last season there.

Just admit you were wrong and get on with it.

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I don't think anyone who understands the point of the positions would argue that Mata isn't a far better number 10 than Rooney

The thing is Rooney's talent can see him score a ton of goals from any attacking position he plays so he's pretty much unplayable, you have to have him on the pitch somewhere, and his work rate is immense

Generally agree (although unplayable is be a bit much ) On the last several months firm I would have Falcao furthest up at our nominal '9', Mata at 10, and Rooney between them at a kind of 9.5. Plays to his strengths of doing a lot of things well, without putting pressure for him to be tied in as a 9/10, which the other two have the attributes to excel at more than him, and who are also more tactically astute to those spots imo, having played the majority of the careers there. I really don't know why LVG isn't doing it, since it plays to all three of their strengths (and RVP's if he is on for Falcao).

BloodBath

beno619 wrote: »

Rooney has never been a great #10, Mata has at one time had a claim to being the best in the world in that position.

Nobody get's a claim to that as long as Messi is playing in fairness.

Rayne Wooney

Mars Bar wrote: »

surely that would make him undroppable? Not unplayable!

I take it you don't watch any post-pre game Sky Sports

It's a Jamie Redknapp/Carragher-ism

Mars Bar

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I take it you don't watch any post-pre game Sky Sports

It's a Jamie Redknapp/Carragher-ism

No, I don't usually.

And people copy the misuse of the word?! Ugh

PhlegmyMoses

BloodBath wrote: »

Nobody get's a claim to that as long as Messi is playing in fairness.

I wouldn't call Messi a Number 10 in the classic sense of the term.

BloodBath

Billy86 wrote: »

You said he is only good at passing, nothing else. Yet at a goal every 108 minutes I am pretty sure he I has been our most prolific player since he got going in March, and scored 32 goals in two seasons playing for Chelsea playing as an AM/10, including 20 in his last season there.

Just admit you were wrong and get on with it.

Is he a better goal scorer than Rooney? Sorry no he's not, he's not that good at all and if you're going to base stats on such a short period of play then good for you.

I base my opinions on the games I watch which is all of them, not on some nonsense stat you pulled off the net based on a very short period of time.

If you want to use stats then Mata is only creating an average of a little over 1 chance per 90 mins so far this season which for a supposedly great number 10 playing with 2 great strikers in front of him is piss poor.

That's supposed to be the strongest area of his game and it simply is not good enough. He needs to improve if he wants first team football.

The Moldy Gowl

Billy86 wrote: »

You said he is only good at passing, nothing else. Yet at a goal every 108 minutes I am pretty sure he I has been our most prolific player since he got going in March, and scored 32 goals in two seasons playing for Chelsea playing as an AM/10, including 20 in his last season there.

Just admit you were wrong and get on with it.


Generally agree (although unplayable is be a bit much ) On the last several months firm I would have Falcao furthest up at our nominal '9', Mata at 10, and Rooney between them at a kind of 9.5. Plays to his strengths of doing a lot of things well, without putting pressure for him to be tied in as a 9/10, which the other two have the attributes to excel at more than him, and who are also more tactically astute to those spots imo, having played the majority of the careers there. I really don't know why LVG isn't doing it, since it plays to all three of their strengths (and RVP's if he is on for Falcao).

You said he will score 25 goals a season based off a stat. Then said he scored 32 in 2 seasons at Chelsea.

Then said he was wrong?

It's not how it works. Goals per minute is a stupid stat to base future performances off.

Now admit you used stats wrong and move on.

Liam O

Billy86 wrote: »

You want Mata to play as a two way midfielder in place of possibly our best player not named Di Maria over the last 3 or so games?

Herrera is injured so I want Mata there instead of a Fletcher or Anderson. Barca have no problem with Xavi or Rakitic or whoever in there and Mata takes up those positions anyway. Doesn't have Herrera's bite but given the attributes of all the players to replace him I think Mata matches them the closest.

The Moldy Gowl

Liam O wrote: »

Herrera is injured so I want Mata there instead of a Fletcher or Anderson. Barca have no problem with Xavi or Rakitic or whoever in there and Mata takes up those positions anyway. Doesn't have Herrera's bite but given the attributes of all the players to replace him I think Mata matches them the closest.

I would play Rooney there over mata. More rounded.

Would work against weaker teams or maybe in a few months when teams won't try to attack us.

beno619

The only reason were having the argument is because LVG won't hurry up and drop RVP.

Based on performance this season we should be lining up with.

Rooney Falcao
Mata

I don't think Rooney is a great CM option either, last time he played there we got lots of hollywood diagonal balls but not much else.

Larry Wildman

beno619 wrote: »

Rooney has never been a great #10, Mata has at one time had a claim to being the best in the world in that position.

When exactly was that time?

That's a wild statement.

In more disturbing news, the Indo are reporting a £25m move for David De Gea by Real Madrid. That's only a little over £7m more than we paid for him. Nonsense I hope although the fact that his girlfriend is Spanish and the Real Madrid factor are problems (notwithstanding his Atletico connection).

BloodBath

I wouldn't have Mata anywhere near central midfield. He has 0 defensive qualities. Rooney would be a far better choice.

beno619 wrote: »

The only reason were having the argument is because LVG won't hurry up and drop RVP.

Based on performance this season we should be lining up with.

Rooney Falcao
Mata

I don't think Rooney is a great CM option either, last time he played there we got lots of hollywood diagonal balls but not much else.

Rooney regularly plays in midfield areas. He spent the majority of last season around there trying to help our dire midfield make some progress up the field and was by far our best player last season as he has been multiple seasons.

beno619

Larry Wildman wrote: »

When exactly was that time?

That's a wild statement.

In more disturbing news, the Indo are reporting a £25m move for David De Gea by Real Madrid. That's only a little over £7m more than we paid for him. Nonsense I hope although the fact that his girlfriend is Spanish and the Real Madrid factor are problems (notwithstanding his Atletico connection).

The season he played a huge part making Chelsea European champions with 20 goals & 25+ assists.

beno619

BloodBath wrote: »

I wouldn't have Mata anywhere near central midfield. He has 0 defensive qualities. Rooney would be a far better choice.



Rooney regularly plays in midfield areas. He spent the majority of last season around there trying to help our dire midfield make some progress up the field and was by far our best player last season as he has been multiple seasons.

Playing in midfield areas doesn't make you a good midfielder, ie Stephen Gerrard.

Larry Wildman

beno619 wrote: »

The season he played a huge part making Chelsea European champions with 20 goals & 25+ assists.

The world's best is a little OTT in my view.

The Moldy Gowl

beno619 wrote: »

Playing in midfield areas doesn't make you a good midfielder, ie Stephen Gerrard.

You're just being hyperbolic and just backtracking now