Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

Billy86

BloodBath wrote: »

Is he a better goal scorer than Rooney? Sorry no he's not, he's not that good at all and if you're going to base stats on such a short period of play then good for you.

I base my opinions on the games I watch which is all of them, not on some nonsense stat you pulled off the net based on a very short period of time.

If you want to use stats then Mata is only creating an average of a little over 1 chance per 90 mins so far this season which for a supposedly great number 10 playing with 2 great strikers in front of him is piss poor.

That's supposed to be the strongest area of his game and it simply is not good enough.

You said Mata is not good at anything but passing. Just admit it you were talking nonsense.

I do love that you brought up chances creates, by the way... Mata has created 1.44 chances per 90 minutes this season. Rooney has created 0.89... as in Mata has been far more productive on that front. The last time Mata had a full season at 10, he finished with 3.12 chances created per game, which is far and above what Rooney has had this year, last season, or the one before that. Even last year for us, he had 2.42 chances created per game, again higher than Rooney this year, last year, or the year before. Oh and when he was struggling/out of favour at Chelsea last season? 3.27 chances created per game.

But back to the original point, you said Mata wasn't good at anything but passing. The longer it takes you to just drop it or admit you were wrong, the more foolish you look.

BloodBath

I'm talking about this season playing for us though, not previous seasons for Chelsea. So far he has not recreated that 1 amazing Chelsea season where as Rooney has proven himself for many seasons.

Rooney was outstanding last season despite playing very deep for a lot of it surrounded by crap players who underperformed. He looked to be our best midfielder last season. That's how versatile he is and why he's better than Mata.

He managed to come up with 17 league goals and 12 assists despite playing so deep a lot of the time and despite Van Persie been given the penalty duties.

He's got all the attributes to be a great midfielder. Long/Short passing, good ball retention, good physicality and work rate, decent tacking/interception and he actually battles for aerial balls and wins them most of the time unlike Mata who never ever goes for a header.

yabadabado

BloodBath wrote: »

.

He's got all the attributes to be a great midfielder. Long/Short passing, good ball retention, good physicality and work rate, decent tacking/interception and he actually battles for aerial balls and wins them most of the time unlike Mata who never ever goes for a header.

I really don't think he has ,he would do a job there if needed but will never be a great midfielder.

Larry Wildman

I've always thought that the best players to deploy in midfield are midfielders.

Thankfully our days of getting fellas who can "do a job" to play out of position appear to be over.

Rooney should be played up front alongside Falcao with Mata behind them.

BloodBath

I'd love to see Rooney get back to the form he was in the last time he was played up front for a whole season. He has kind of been screwed by being moved around so much but it has grown other aspects of his game. He would have smashed Sir Bobby's record already if he had been.

His obvious best natural ability is up front though and I would like to see him tested at least up front with Falcao and Mata behind.

It doesn't make sense playing all 3 of our forward options at the same time.

Billy86

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

You said he will score 25 goals a season based off a stat. Then said he scored 32 in 2 seasons at Chelsea.

Then said he was wrong?

It's not how it works. Goals per minute is a stupid stat to base future performances off.

Now admit you used stats wrong and move on.

He said Mata is not good at scoring goals. Yet Mata had 32 in 2 years for Chelsea including 20 in his last year there. He got off to a slow start for us with Moyes seemingly not knowing he wasn't a winger, but since his first goal he has been scoring at one every 108 minutes. Extrapolating it out was to show that that is pretty prolific, regardless of how you cut it.

Fact is, Mata is a good goalscorer from AM/10 spots.

PhlegmyMoses

Billy86 wrote: »

He said Mata is not good at scoring goals. Yet Mata had 32 in 2 years for Chelsea including 20 in his last year there. He got off to a slow start for us with Moyes seemingly not knowing he wasn't a winger, but since his first goal he has been scoring at one every 108 minutes. Extrapolating it out was to show that that is pretty prolific, regardless of how you cut it.

Fact is, Mata is a good goalscorer from AM/10 spots.

Mata has great goalscoring stats but I find him to be similar to Nani in this regard. Stats look great and capable of genius but it's the in between stuff that can let him down a bit, stuff during the transition where he can let the side down.

Loads of time to rectify this and if he continues to score and assist at the same rate he'll be a big asset. I'd just like to see him do a bit more during crucial phases of play.

Donnielighto

Ya, in fairness if you cant use stats to inform predictions then you're just saying gut wins. You need reasons to back them up and stats as raw data are pretty decent. Especially when they cover time under different coaches and in different teams.

Btw at least there is some effort being put into the mata case where rooney's case is being presented as an opinion and a bunch of vague statements or ones that are not being properly backed up.

This is the general vibe I'm getting in here atm.

Donnielighto

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Mata has great goalscoring stats but I find him to be similar to Nani in this regard. Stats look great and capable of genius but it's the in between stuff that can let him down a bit, stuff during the transition where he can let the side down.

Loads of time to rectify this and if he continues to score and assist at the same rate he'll be a big asset. I'd just like to see him do a bit more during crucial phases of play.

Nani, hope he comes back in good spirits and we play with 3 up front.

K4t

Why is Blind not playing in midfield for the Dutch? He's an average full back and quite slow too.

DM_7

Was the SAF interview discussed already?

Lots if interesting pieces in it but from the current team I was encouraged to hear SAF wanted Shaw when Shaw was only 16 and that he had scouted Herrera. Good to see United were getting players they put a lot of time watching.

SherlockWatson

BloodBath wrote: »

Nobody get's a claim to that as long as Messi is playing in fairness.

lol this isn't Football Manager, Messi is not a #10. (Unless you're being super anal, in which case, yes, he is a #10, as his jersey says so, but in a footballing context, no, just no)

Mars Bar wrote: »

No, I don't usually.

And people copy the misuse of the word?! Ugh

I think it's meant from the opposition defenders point of view though, that's how I always thought of it.

BloodBath wrote: »

Is he a better goal scorer than Rooney? Sorry no he's not, he's not that good at all and if you're going to base stats on such a short period of play then good for you.

So you're advocating that Rooney should be #10 because he's a better goalscorer than Mata??

That's the strikers job.

BloodBath wrote: »

I base my opinions on the games I watch which is all of them, not on some nonsense stat you pulled off the net based on a very short period of time.

Really? Well what games were you watching where Messi was the best #10 in the world??

BloodBath wrote: »

If you want to use stats then Mata is only creating an average of a little over 1 chance per 90 mins so far this season which for a supposedly great number 10 playing with 2 great strikers in front of him is piss poor.


That's supposed to be the strongest area of his game and it simply is not good enough. He needs to improve if he wants first team football.

The whole team has been playing poorly this season, if you were to also judge Rooney off those stats, he was creating less chances.

Whatsisname

Pretty sure we were linked with him at the end of the window, crazy stat

https://twitter.com/BBCSport/status/521766429650350080

kryogen

irishfeen wrote: »

SAF talking on MUTV now for the first time (I think) since he retired.... I hope we hear him talk about David Moyes..

It will be a puff piece, actually by this time I am sure it was. Nice safe questions probably all revolving around what he thinks about what has gone on at the club since he departed but mainly skipping the Moyes debacle and certainly nothing that would be potentially inflammatory.

I have recorded it so will most likely watch it some day to pass 30 minutes, but I wouldn't be expecting anything of note in it.

DM_7

Transcript is available

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/11160076/Sir-Alex-Ferguson-talks-with-Jim-Rosenthal-on-MUTV.html

irishfeen

kryogen wrote: »

It will be a puff piece, actually by this time I am sure it was. Nice safe questions probably all revolving around what he thinks about what has gone on at the club since he departed but mainly skipping the Moyes debacle and certainly nothing that would be potentially inflammatory.

I have recorded it so will most likely watch it some day to pass 30 minutes, but I wouldn't be expecting anything of note in it.

Its piss poor actually - Moyes wasn't even mentioned, way too nice and comfortable.

beno619

Gowlasauras Rex wrote:

You're just being hyperbolic and just backtracking now

Rooney is not a good midfielder imo. He's a top top forward though.

SherlockWatson

Iceland vs Netherlands on SS5 if anyone is interested in watching it.

Billy86

BloodBath wrote: »

I'm talking about this season playing for us though, not previous seasons for Chelsea. So far he has not recreated that 1 amazing Chelsea season where as Rooney has proven himself for many seasons.

Rooney was outstanding last season despite playing very deep for a lot of it surrounded by crap players who underperformed. He looked to be our best midfielder last season. That's how versatile he is and why he's better than Mata.

He managed to come up with 17 league goals and 12 assists despite playing so deep a lot of the time and despite Van Persie been given the penalty duties.

He's got all the attributes to be a great midfielder. Long/Short passing, good ball retention, good physicality and work rate, decent tacking/interception and he actually battles for aerial balls and wins them most of the time unlike Mata who never ever goes for a header.

Actually it was 2 of his 2.5 seasons at Chelsea, and he also looked class at Valencia before then.

Even last season when Mata was out of favour and out of position at Chelsea, then adapting to a new team and again out of position with us, he was creating more chances than Rooney. A #10s primary role is creating chances for those ahead of him and linking the attack together. Mata is simply the better player at this.

The Moldy Gowl

beno619 wrote: »

Rooney is not a good midfielder imo. He's a top top forward though.

Ugh.



Obviously.


Normally I would post a gif to sum up my feelings but you have upset me so much, I'm not gonna bother. You have broken me.

Headshot

Just goes to show how good LVG was as National Coach

The Moldy Gowl

Headshot wrote: »

Just goes to show how good LVG was as National Coach

Can we get a stat of his goals per minute to judge his potential future, please, carol.

The_Kew_Tour

Will United beat West Brom Lads?

Billy86

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Will United beat West Brom Lads?

Not with the spoofed and fraud we have in charge, sure with all the Dutch talent at his disposal this summer he couldn't even get to the final.

The Moldy Gowl

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Will United beat West Brom Lads?

No. We are going to lose and cry and fall out with eachother and mata is better than everyone based on stats and nothing else AND WHY ARE WE SHOUTING

beno619

Gowlasauras Rex wrote:

Ugh.

Have you actually tried to make a point or are you just moaning about other people's posts ?

The Moldy Gowl

beno619 wrote: »

Have you actually tried to make a point or are you just moaning about other people's posts ?

At the moment, I'm moaning about yours and cropping out half my post.

Pretty sure I have only moaned at yours tonight.

Is there a problem?

Nalz

65

beno619

Gowlasauras Rex wrote:

Is there a problem?

I'm not really sure where you stand on Mata vs Rooney because you've decided to change the subject.

homerjay2005

This "number 10" role has become the most annoying and over-analyised position in football at this stage.

People are giving it far too much reference especially at United - most clubs/coaches dont even use i and its generally a sky sports concept thats caught on.

Backstreet Moyes

homerjay2005 wrote: »

This "number 10" role has become the most annoying and over-analyised position in football at this stage.

People are giving it far too much reference especially at United - most clubs/coaches dont even use i and its generally a sky sports concept thats caught on.

How would you describe the role Mata and Kagawa played before joining United.

From what i seen it was playing between the cm and the striker which is known as the number 10 role.

Kerrydude1981

homerjay2005 wrote: »

This "number 10" role has become the most annoying and over-analyised position in football at this stage.

People are giving it far too much reference especially at United - most clubs/coaches dont even use i and its generally a sky sports concept thats caught on.

Ya,it does get thrown around a lot,

Another concept that never took off thank god was the "false 9"

The Moldy Gowl

beno619 wrote: »

I'm not really sure where you stand on Mata vs Rooney because you've decided to change the subject.

No I didn't. You started having a go at me and your arguement was stupid.

I like them both equally and I glad we have both.

kryogen

Seeing how poorly Netherlands are playing, and the 3 losses out of 4 games certainly doesn't mean that Van Gaal had them playing well above expectations, definitely didn't deserve much praise for the performance in the world cup, sure don't you know the Netherlands were in a world cup final in 2010?

kryogen

homerjay2005 wrote: »

This "number 10" role has become the most annoying and over-analyised position in football at this stage.

People are giving it far too much reference especially at United - most clubs/coaches dont even use i and its generally a sky sports concept thats caught on.

Its actually like you just hear some oul fella banging on about stuff in the pub and think its sounds deadly so you repeat it here.

beno619

I made a comment dismissing Rooney's capabilities as a midfielder and you responded with.

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

You're just being hyperbolic and just backtracking now

You failed to point out why Rooney would make a good midfielder or examples of when he has in the past.

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

No I didn't. You started having a go at me and your arguement was stupid.

I like them both equally and I glad we have both.

Well of course we both like them but the debate isnt over who's more popular it about who's more suited to starting at #10 in the current system.

homerjay2005

Nuts102 wrote: »

How would you describe the role Mata and Kagawa played before joining United.

From what i seen it was playing between the cm and the striker which is known as the number 10 role.

Mata/Kaawa are attacking midfielders, plain and simple.

the number 10 role has never been part of our DNA in the way people call it here- if you ever meet Ferguson ask him about false 9's or number 10's and see how far you get, in fact in his book he refers to kagawa as a midfielder and likewise nick powell, yet we have lads on here calling them number 10's.

Rooney and Mata are completely different players, im not sure why people keep comparing them. Rooney is a number 10 in the old fashioned style, playing just off a goal scoring striker (RVN, Saha, RVP) but is an out and out striker, not an attacking midfielder - they are completely different roles.

i would liken Matas role to that of lets say Silva at City. now Silva isnt a number 10 but he plays as an attacking midfielder behind Aguero and Dzeko for instance. Fernandinho and Toure do the holding, allowing Silva a free role.

when City are defending, he would be tasked with covering the left wing but the majority of his game is played drifting accross the entire midfield. thats what Mata should be doing, but he doesnt seem capable (or maybe isnt allowed to). the only reason it becomes Rooney V Mata is now due to Falcaos involvement, 4 into 3 positions wont go and there isnt much room for Mata in a 4-3-3 that requires speed - Rooney offers more of it than Mata so he is always going to be picked.

ive been doing my coaching badges for the past 2 years and have been mentored by a former United academy coach. i can be 100% sure that he has never once mentioned number 10 role to me in any session, discussion or analysis we have done. "playing in the hole" has been mentioned and would be more appropriate than this number 10 nonsense.

paulbok

kryogen wrote: »

Its actually like you just hear some oul fella banging on about stuff in the pub and think its sounds deadly so you repeat it here.

He plays as the no. 10.
He's the second striker
He plays off the main striker.
He plays in the hole.
He's the link between midfield and the striker.
He's the playmaker.


More or less the same guy, pick title as required.

Mitch Connor

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Mata/Kaawa are attacking midfielders, plain and simple.

the number 10 role has never been part of our DNA in the way people call it here- if you ever meet Ferguson ask him about false 9's or number 10's and see how far you get, in fact in his book he refers to kagawa as a midfielder and likewise nick powell, yet we have lads on here calling them number 10's.

Rooney and Mata are completely different players, im not sure why people keep comparing them. Rooney is a number 10 in the old fashioned style, playing just off a goal scoring striker (RVN, Saha, RVP) but is an out and out striker, not an attacking midfielder - they are completely different roles.

i would liken Matas role to that of lets say Silva at City. now Silva isnt a number 10 but he plays as an attacking midfielder behind Aguero and Dzeko for instance. Fernandinho and Toure do the holding, allowing Silva a free role.

when City are defending, he would be tasked with covering the left wing but the majority of his game is played drifting accross the entire midfield. thats what Mata should be doing, but he doesnt seem capable (or maybe isnt allowed to). the only reason it becomes Rooney V Mata is now due to Falcaos involvement, 4 into 3 positions wont go and there isnt much room for Mata in a 4-3-3 that requires speed - Rooney offers more of it than Mata so he is always going to be picked.

ive been doing my coaching badges for the past 2 years and have been mentored by a former United academy coach. i can be 100% sure that he has never once mentioned number 10 role to me in any session, discussion or analysis we have done. "playing in the hole" has been mentioned and would be more appropriate than this number 10 nonsense.

Not being part of our DNA is a ile of bollox, to be honest. United are a different prospect under LVG> playing with 3 at the back and wing backs was not part of our DNA, but we have done that a good bit under him.

Whether you like the term or not, or a former academy coach likes it or not isn't at all relevant.

The Number 10 role, and position, is well established in football - and if you look up the LVG tactics discussion I posted on here a while back you will see LVG himself talk about the number 10 and there responsibility to the side - so given LVG sees it as a role, and he is actually the United boss...

Will I Amnt

Number 10 or CAM... Who cares? It's still the same position, why bother arguing over the label?

We all know what position is being referred to when somebody says number 10.

homerjay2005

Mitch Connor wrote: »

The Number 10 role, and position, is well established in football

indeed, but in a completely different reference to what is being discussed on here. Denis Law was a "10", Rooney is a "10'". Juan Mata is not.

do City play with a 10? no they dont.
do Arsenal play with a 10? i dont think they do.
Real Madrid? again, they dont.
bayern? unless people call Mueller a 10, which he isnt, no they dont.

and so on and so on.

Mitch Connor wrote: »

and if you look up the LVG tactics discussion I posted on here a while back you will see LVG himself talk about the number 10 and there responsibility to the side - so given LVG sees it as a role, and he is actually the United boss...

you will hear LVG reference numbers for multiple difference positions, its just his way of talking. he also said in a recent interview that Rooney can play at 7, 11 9 or 10, but he prefers him at a 9 or 10.

Phil Jones was described as a 4 by him, Rojo as a 3 or a 5. these are just positions on the pitch, but on boards this number 10 position is treated as if its the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Mars Bar

I don't consider rooney a 10 in the current set up. A 10 is to be the player who links the attacking play around the box behind the striker (not a role he does as well as a 10 should imo), he's the creative outlet with little defensive duty. Rooney is behind the strikers because we have to fit them all in somewhere and his stamina and defensive work are very good. That works fine. Imo, his best position is out and out striker.

Lucas Hood

I can't actually believe what I am reading on here.

The Moldy Gowl

Lucas Hood wrote: »

I can't actually believe what I am reading on here.

What's up, buttercup

kryogen

Was there a poster here years ago called SeanSouth or something like that or am I just losing my mind? Chap from Limerick (naturally)

Martin Walker

Mars Bar wrote: »

I don't consider rooney a 10 in the current set up. A 10 is to be the player who links the attacking play around the box behind the striker (not a role he does as well as a 10 should imo), he's the creative outlet with little defensive duty. Rooney is behind the strikers because we have to fit them all in somewhere and his stamina and defensive work are very good. That works fine. Imo, his best position is out and out striker.

This.
Id wager that if he signed for Chelsea when they were looking at him hed be playing up top on his own.

The Moldy Gowl

kryogen wrote: »

Was there a poster here years ago called SeanSouth or something like that or am I just losing my mind? Chap from Limerick (naturally)

From garryowen?

The_Kew_Tour

Probably re reg 132 times by now (in joking, kinda)

kryogen

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

From garryowen?

Certainly wished he was anyway

Mr_Red

Does anyone have info on injury recovery within the Team?