Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

Backstreet Moyes

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I never said he was consistently like that up until a few weeks ago but yes he had some games where his simple passing was truly awful. That is unacceptable for me. The opening game against Swansea was particularly terrible.

There were calls to have him dropped from the England team not so long ago too, he was so bad for them.
I'm sure you will counter this with the "he's in a team playing poorly" argument too but again, I expect a lot more from a player in that bracket, just like Suarez dragging Liverpool and Sanchez dragging Arsenal it shouldn't be as big an excuse as it is.

See that is nonsense he was their best player in the qualifiers. They were calls to drop him because Sterling and Sturridge were lethal as a partnership for Liverpool.

They moved him to the left in the World Cup and he was still their best player.

Your Airbag

UTD planning Nani swap in order to land Carvalho

http://www.footballfancast.com/football-news/man-united-plan-nani-swap-to-land-24million-arsenal-target?

Mantis Toboggan

Wow, can't believe I'm agreeing with some people in this thread.

Rooney will always have his haters but despite being skeptical at the time I'm happy now that he is our captain.

Backstreet Moyes

Your Airbag wrote: »

UTD planning Nani swap in order to land Carvalho

http://www.footballfancast.com/football-news/man-united-plan-nani-swap-to-land-24million-arsenal-target?

I would be happy with that once we got Shaqiri.

bucketybuck

Pro. F wrote: »

Fergie fùcked Rooney all over the place in his last season

Fergie didn't fuck him about, he simply dropped him due to poor performance and he was right to do so, Rooney was gash for quite a while that season. When it came to the likes of the Madrid game that season I completely agreed with his decision to start Wellbeck ahead of Rooney, he was way off the pace at that time.

The Moldy Gowl

Buddy Holly wrote: »

Wow, can't believe I'm agreeing with some people in this thread.

Rooney will always have his haters but despite being skeptical at the time I'm happy now that he is our captain.

Even I agree with you on that

Backstreet Moyes

bucketybuck wrote: »

Fergie didn't fuck him about, he simply dropped him due to poor performance and he was right to do so, Rooney was gash for quite a while that season. When it came to the likes of the Madrid game that season I completely agreed with his decision to start Wellbeck ahead of Rooney, he was way off the pace at that time.

He was poor because he was playing on the left wing. Wellbeck started ahead of Rooney on the wing not up front against Madrid.

beno619

Nuts102 wrote: »

He was poor because he was playing on the left wing. Wellbeck started ahead of Rooney on the wing not up front against Madrid.

Yep the difference is Welbeck performed wherever he was asked to play, Rooney was not performing. Welbeck rightfully vindicated Fergie's selection by being excellent in both ties.

bucketybuck

Nuts102 wrote: »

He was poor because he was playing on the left wing. Wellbeck started ahead of Rooney on the wing not up front against Madrid.

He was poor fullstop. He was a senior player who had often played on the wing and knew the role, his performances were poor even if only compared to his own previous performances in that position.

Lucas Hood

Nuts102 wrote: »

He was poor because he was playing on the left wing. Wellbeck started ahead of Rooney on the wing not up front against Madrid.

Welbeck started in behind Van Persie. Pressing Alonso. Something he did very well.

kryogen

Welbeck sat on Alonso during that match and took him out of the game basically, he was excellent and then when we were countering his pace and ability to stretch the defence worked very well too. He performed his task unbelievably well that night

Rayne Wooney

I think Carvalho is a step up from Blind in that deeper midfield position but I wouldn't let Nani go unless we were getting another wide player in

Billy86

Nuts102 wrote: »

They moved him to the left in the World Cup and he was still their best player.

He played out wide for one game (Italy) and at the #10 spot for the other (Uruguay) - and to be fair Sterling played better in that Italy game than Rooney did vs Uruguay. Hodgson just bottled to pressure from the English media placing one player above the team, as they often do.

Pro. F

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I never said he was consistently like that up until a few weeks ago but yes he had some games where his simple passing was truly awful. That is unacceptable for me. The opening game against Swansea was particularly terrible.

You never said a lot of things, but it's been quite difficult to work out exactly what you have been saying because it's been a bit vague and changeable. First you were talking about how Rooney and Nani need six or seven games before they produce (which is not true) and how Young gets up to form quicker (also not true). Then you went on to this season, saying that Rooney only got up to form in the last few weeks (again not true), but you worded it talking about the form "his reputation is built on", as if you weren't claiming that he had been playing diabolically, just not as good as one of the best strikers in the league. But then you went straight back to talking about how Ashley Young doesn't look like he's forgotten how to play football, which would imply that you do think Rooney has been playing diabolically. All through that I asked you specific questions to clarify what you were talking about, but you failed to answer them.

So now you are saying that there have been some games where Rooney's passing has been unaceptably bad.

While I agree there have been some games where his touch and passing have been poor (Swansea and Sunderland, the first two games of the season, are the two I can think of), none of it has been so bad as to be unnaceptable to have happen a few times a season. There isn't a striker in the league who doesn't have off days like that, and most of even the best have more than Rooney. And I still don't see how those two games add up to Rooney only coming into form in the last couple of weeks like you claimed.

Will I Amnt wrote: »

There were calls to have him dropped from the England team not so long ago too, he was so bad for them.
I'm sure you will counter this with the "he's in a team playing poorly" argument too but again, I expect a lot more from a player in that bracket, just like Suarez dragging Liverpool and Sanchez dragging Arsenal it shouldn't be as big an excuse as it is.

There being calls for something to happen in the England team proves absolutely nothing. There were also many people saying that Gerrard playing in central midfield was a good idea. It's laughable to use mob opinion as proof of anything. Rooney was not playing badly for England when the critics were trying to pin all the blame on him.

I think you are conflating different arguments with your reference to Rooney playing in a poor team. Last season the fact that he was playing in a poor team was a good explanation for why he wasn't playing like one of the best in the league, there was no talk that he was playing shîte as if he couldn't do the basics like you are talking about today. In possession, Liverpool last season and Arsenal this season are nowhere near as bad as United were last season or England are in general, so there's no comparison to make with the argument about Rooney's play last season which was suffering for being in a shít team. He still managed 17 goals and 10 assists while playing behind RVP in a team playing awfully. That is a very respectable return.

kryogen

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

I think Carvalho is a step up from Blind in that deeper midfield position but I wouldn't let Nani go unless we were getting another wide player in

Carvalho would be wasted in that role really.

Giggsy11

kryogen wrote: »

Carvalho would be wasted in that role really.

He is a deep player.

Pro. F

bucketybuck wrote: »

Fergie didn't fuck him about, he simply dropped him due to poor performance and he was right to do so, Rooney was gash for quite a while that season. When it came to the likes of the Madrid game that season I completely agreed with his decision to start Wellbeck ahead of Rooney, he was way off the pace at that time.

Fergie played Rooney on the wing in the first leg against Real and he was poor, just like he has always struggled out there. Rooney is not a winger and he generally plays poorly when given that job, just like you would expect. Fergie playing him in positions where he struggles and constantly moving him about positions is exactly what I would call fûcking a player about.

bucketybuck

Pro. F wrote: »

Fergie played Rooney on the wing in the first leg against Real and he was poor, just like he has always struggled out there. Rooney is not a winger and he generally plays poorly when given that job, just like you would expect. Fergie playing him in positions where he struggles and constantly moving him about positions is exactly what I would call fûcking a player about.

This just isn't correct. Rooney was not asked to do anything he hadn't done before, he had often played and excelled in that role in 2008 for example. To say he has always struggled out there is not accurate, we would not have been so successful in Europe were it not for some excellent contributions from Rooney playing less central.

Al Capwned

Ferguson definitely f*cked Rooney over a lot over the years, especially so in the last year of his tenure as manager. There's no denying that imo.

Rooney is one of our best players when played in his favoured position, and this has been proven over the years. To ask him to do a job as a winger is always going to result in performances that are seen as sub standard by supporters. This will almost always result in said supporters geting on his back, and as said by a previous poster, the fact that he is an dislikeable character will exaggerate this.

Ferguson would certainly have been acutely aware of this. It is accepted that he didnt like him, and i wouldn't be surprised if his aim was to force him out in that way.

If Ferguson hadn't left when he did, Rooney wouldn't be a United player now.

Will I Amnt

Pro. F wrote: »

You never said a lot of things, but it's been quite difficult to work out exactly what you have been saying because it's been a bit vague and changeable. First you were talking about how Rooney and Nani need six or seven games before they produce (which is not true) and how Young gets up to form quicker (also not true). Then you went on to this season, saying that Rooney only got up to form in the last few weeks (again not true), but you worded it talking about the form "his reputation is built on", as if you weren't claiming that he had been playing diabolically, just not as good as one of the best strikers in the league. But then you went straight back to talking about how Ashley Young doesn't look like he's forgotten how to play football, which would imply that you do think Rooney has been playing diabolically. All through that I asked you specific questions to clarify what you were talking about, but you failed to answer them.

So now you are saying that there have been some games where Rooney's passing has been unaceptably bad.

While I agree there have been some games where his touch and passing have been poor (Swansea and Sunderland, the first two games of the season, are the two I can think of), none of it has been so bad as to be unnaceptable to have happen a few times a season. There isn't a striker in the league who doesn't have off days like that, and most of even the best have more than Rooney. And I still don't see how those two games add up to Rooney only coming into form in the last couple of weeks like you claimed.



There being calls for something to happen in the England team proves absolutely nothing. There were also many people saying that Gerrard playing in central midfield was a good idea. It's laughable to use mob opinion as proof of anything. Rooney was not playing badly for England when the critics were trying to pin all the blame on him.

I think you are conflating different arguments with your reference to Rooney playing in a poor team. Last season the fact that he was playing in a poor team was a good explanation for why he wasn't playing like one of the best in the league, there was no talk that he was playing shîte as if he couldn't do the basics like you are talking about today. In possession, Liverpool last season and Arsenal this season are nowhere near as bad as United were last season or England are in general, so there's no comparison to make with the argument about Rooney's play last season which was suffering for being in a shít team. He still managed 17 goals and 10 assists while playing behind RVP in a team playing awfully. That is a very respectable return.

He has only come into the form that he should be producing week in week out in the very recent past. Doing ok is not what I expect of somebody on his wages.

We are not going to agree anyway and I'll be dropping it here because I don't have the patience or will to argue through the night with you that others have.

Cantona's Collars

http://www.abc.es/realmadrid/noticias/20141123/abci-reus-real-madrid-201411212027.html

De Gea reported to be refusing to sign a new contract.I'm still dubious about him joining Real seeing as his club is Atletico.

Nalz

Al Capwned wrote: »

Rooney is one of our best players when played in his favoured position, and this has been proven over the years.

Right now, if everyone was played in their correct position, Roone is our best player... not just one of imo

Al Capwned

Trilla wrote: »

Right now, if everyone was played in their correct position, Roone is our best player... not just one of imo

I'm biased, but I'd say de Gea in that case....
But I get what you're saying.

bucketybuck

Al Capwned wrote: »

Ferguson definitely f*cked Rooney over a lot over the years, especially so in the last year of his tenure as manager. There's no denying that imo.

Rooney is one of our best players when played in his favoured position, and this has been proven over the years. To ask him to do a job as a winger is always going to result in performances that are seen as sub standard by supporters. This will almost always result in said supporters geting on his back, and as said by a previous poster, the fact that he is an dislikeable character will exaggerate this.

Ferguson would certainly have been acutely aware of this. It is accepted that he didnt like him, and i wouldn't be surprised if his aim was to force him out in that way.

If Ferguson hadn't left when he did, Rooney wouldn't be a United player now.

I just don't think "fucked over" is accurate, there was certainly a souring of that relationship but Rooney played his part in that every bit as much as Fergie did. Repeated transfer requests aside, do you think that Fergie would have dropped a performing Wayne Rooney for the Madrid game? I very much doubt it. Fergie didn't drop him because he wanted to fuck him over, he dropped him because he was way off the pace and it showed.

That he wasn't getting his preferred position is a side issue for me. Rooney showed in the past he is well able to perform out there, that he wasn't doing so suggests his poor form was down to him sulking rather than him struggling to understand the role.

Rayne Wooney

Sadly I think he could go if we don't make CL this year

Timing couldn't be better for him, replacing Casillas at Spain's best club when he wants to stake a claim to be Spanish number 1

Nalz

Al Capwned wrote: »

I'm biased, but I'd say de Gea in that case....
But I get what you're saying.

keeper obviously excluded

irishfeen

I'd be devastated if DeGea left us

homerjay2005

Rojo back in training apparently. Evans played this week for reserves.

with 3 league games in 8 days coming up, that is great news to we could have 3 center backs available, plus Mcnair of course.

kryogen

Giggsy11 wrote: »

He is a deep player.

I know nothing of his thinking

I think the simplest way I can describe what I am saying is that to me he is a similar style of player to Patrick Viera, he is defensively sound of course, and reads the game well, but he is also technically quite good and carries the ball well, he rarely loses it and uses his body and commanding presence very well.

He has a good first touch and a nice burst of pace, his positioning is a strength and he presses opponents very well and I feel he will go on to be so much more then just a shield for the defence. He is becoming more comfortable venturing forward while not becoming a liability to his team by leaving them unbalanced

adox

Rooney wasnt ****ed about by Ferguson. It was his ability that Ferguson trusted and thats why he played him out wide in a lot of the big games. And the reason he was played out there was the same reason that Valencia got so much game time on the other wing - the centre of midfield.

Ferguson just didnt trust the players he had in that position, no matter who the duo were and compensated with workhorses on the wings to give extra cover.

even when Giggs was still playing and a serious first team option, it was rare that he and Nani started on either wing because of the bloody midfield. I always thought that Valencia was played as the safe option to help supplement the poor midfield.

Pro. F

Will I Amnt wrote: »

He has only come into the form that he should be producing week in week out in the very recent past. Doing ok is not what I expect of somebody on his wages.

Now you are changing your argument onto whether or not he justifies his wages. That's a complete shift from your original nonsense claim that he takes six or seven games before he starts producing.

Rooney and Di Maria have been our two best outfield players this season. Di Maria has only done okay as well, when you take all the games into consideration. But you are trying to pretend that Rooney has somehow been not as good as the rest of the team.

Will I Amnt wrote: »

We are not going to agree anyway and I'll be dropping it here because I don't have the patience or will to argue through the night with you that others have.

Thank goodness. Pinning you down to one clear argument is tiring.

Pro. F

bucketybuck wrote: »

This just isn't correct. Rooney was not asked to do anything he hadn't done before, he had often played and excelled in that role in 2008 for example. To say he has always struggled out there is not accurate, we would not have been so successful in Europe were it not for some excellent contributions from Rooney playing less central.

Rooney never excelled on the wing. He never had the skills or speed to beat his man and so was very limited in what he could do when United had possession. He was only ever a hard working, but limited winger doing a job in a defensive team when he played out there.

I agree that his work rate on the wing dropped over the years, but that's hardly surprising since he was so unsuited to the position.

adox wrote: »

Rooney wasnt ****ed about by Ferguson. It was his ability that Ferguson trusted and thats why he played him out wide in a lot of the big games. And the reason he was played out there was the same reason that Valencia got so much game time on the other wing - the centre of midfield.

Ferguson just didnt trust the players he had in that position, no matter who the duo were and compensated with workhorses on the wings to give extra cover.

even when Giggs was still playing and a serious first team option, it was rare that he and Nani started on either wing because of the bloody midfield. I always thought that Valencia was played as the safe option to help supplement the poor midfield.

The fact that Fergie needed Rooney to cover the poor midfield that he had put together doesn't mean that it wasn't fúcking Rooney about by constantly changing his position.

And it wasn't just playing Rooney on the wing in big games that season. He played Rooney in CM and on the wing in games big and small.

irishfeen

irishfeen wrote: »

I'd be devastated if DeGea left us

Me too

Only positive would be that we could demand a massive fee for him and Madrid would pay it.

Cantona's Collars

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Me too

Only positive would be that we could demand a massive fee for him and Madrid would pay it.

Good news,Sports Witness saying the story is just a rehash of old news.They are a great BS filter.

TheFullDuck

just saw wilshere is out for 3 months. some could say karma eh?

Crimson King

TheFullDuck wrote: »

just saw wilshere is out for 3 months. some could say karma eh?

He might be a d*ck but wouldn't wish him injured

UnitedIrishman

M!Ck^ wrote: »

Me too

Only positive would be that we could demand a massive fee for him and Madrid would pay it.

Won't get a massive fee if he only has 12 months left on his contract when they bid. I'm sure those dealing with his contract will have an idea of whether he's angling for a high wage or just flat out wants to leave. Hopefully it is all sorted before the new year anyways.

Cantona's Collars

Crimson King wrote: »

He might be a d*ck but wouldn't wish him injured

I think he's just played 95 games due to various injuries since he made his senior debut.For a guy who tries to portray the hard man image that is pitiful.

Whatsisname

Wilshere's ankles are made of weetabix

Will I Amnt

Pro. F wrote: »

Pinning you down to one clear argument is tiring.

Likewise your one-eyed stubbornness on almost every player you argue for or against on here. Everybody is stupid except you seems to be the recurring theme...
I've equated Rooney's performances with his salary all along, it's the reason I'm as harsh on him as I am, I can still acknowledge he's a fantastic player when he is playing at his level.

Vic Vinegar

zerks wrote: »

I think he's just played 95 games due to various injuries since he made his senior debut.For a guy who tries to portray the hard man image that is pitiful.

You think wrong, it's over 160 appearances. Still not great though.

Mantis Toboggan

Surely De Gea wouldn't join Real. He's Athletico true and true. He'd be haunted in that city.

MaxPower89

Whatsisname wrote: »

Wilshere's ankles are made of weetabix

Could have been cast iron and that tackle would have coused serious damage. Horrific.

Pro. F

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Likewise your one-eyed stubbornness on almost every player you argue for or against on here. Everybody is stupid except you seems to be the recurring theme...

And you have your mind changed regularly when you are arguing about a player on here do you?

You are just changing your focus from the subject of the discussion to who you are arguing with because you are losing the argument.

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I've equated Rooney's performances with his salary all along, it's the reason I'm as harsh on him as I am, I can still acknowledge he's a fantastic player when he is playing at his level.

You didn't mention Rooney's wages once in your first two posts of the discussion.

Of course you can acknowledge that he is a fantastic player when he is at his level, you just try to paint a picture where he is out of form more often than most footballers, when in fact the opposite is the case.

Lord TSC

Vermealan out for the best of the season. Bullet dodged there....

lordgoat

TheFullDuck wrote: »

just saw wilshere is out for 3 months. some could say karma eh?

karma? for what?

MaxPower89 wrote: »

Could have been cast iron and that tackle would have coused serious damage. Horrific.

I disagree if his ankles were made of cast iron they would not have taken any damage.

Donnielighto

Pro. F wrote: »

And you have your mind changed regularly when you are arguing about a player on here do you?

You are just changing your focus from the subject of the discussion to who you are arguing with because you are losing the argument.



You didn't mention Rooney's wages once in your first two posts of the discussion.

Of course you can acknowledge that he is a fantastic player when he is at his level, you just try to paint a picture where he is out of form more often than most footballers, when in fact the opposite is the case.

While I think you're right on the Rooney thing you have to acknowledge that when arguing a point you give less credit to counterpoints than most relative to the rest of your posts. This might be because you feel you've already considered it but it can come across as argumentative or arrogant.

This is despite that fact I generally agree btw.

xtal191

Are UTD on tv this weekend?

irishfeen

xtal191 wrote: »

Are UTD on tv this weekend?

Yep..




Just not in Ireland/UK :mad: ... but where there is a will there is a way

madcabbage

I bet the ESPN Caribbean commentary would be great craic.