Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

bangkok

GavRedKing wrote: »

Robben was always very quick, the fact hes now faster than he ever was is a bit.....suspicious IMO.

where is the proof of this? is it just that he is a better player now that you think he is also faster?

Donnielighto

GavRedKing wrote: »

I was onyl replying to what was said previous.

Post that started it off, a genuine question and reasoned one.




Followed by a post of poor humour, at best.



Now, I 100% believe clubs will and have gained advantages through illegal methods, football is to big and to lucrative to suggest its squeaky clean.

It wasn't a post of poor humour at best, that would be your cack handed response dismissing what looks to be a rising issue in the game.

I'm not saying it is btw, but it would be one logical explanation. Attitudes in England would I presume be more against that than other countries so for arsenal and united having had two long serving managers would have meant it would have been harder for someone else to introduce that to those clubs. Roman's lack of patience, his own interfering and the lack of managerial stability would have allowed pressure for improved results to manifest as breaking the rules wrt PEDs.


In case you missed it this wasn't a post of humour btw.

Pro. F

GavRedKing wrote: »

I was onyl replying to what was said previous.

Post that started it off, a genuine question and reasoned one.

Followed by a post of poor humour, at best.

Now, I 100% believe clubs will and have gained advantages through illegal methods, football is to big and to lucrative to suggest its squeaky clean.

Maybe we are just talking at cross purposes. If you agree that there's a likelihood that some clubs will abstain from doping even if others are getting a benefit from it, then that's all that I'm saying.

SherlockWatson

Donnielighto wrote: »

It wasn't a post of poor humour at best, that would be your cack handed response dismissing what looks to be a rising issue in the game.

I'm not saying it is btw, but it would be one logical explanation. Attitudes in England would I presume be more against that than other countries so for arsenal and united having had two long serving managers would have meant it would have been harder for someone else to introduce that to those clubs. Roman's lack of patience, his own interfering and the lack of managerial stability would have allowed pressure for improved results to manifest as breaking the rules wrt PEDs.


In case you missed it this wasn't a post of humour btw.

It's not exactly far fetched it's something that Jose brought with him from Spain.

Mitch Connor

I reckon there is a degree of PED use at every top club, including United. The money involved at this level is too great to think every advantage won't be looked for.

A friend always likes to point out the Juve/United games in the 90's. We regularly got a lesson, then from 97 or 98 we started physically dominating top sides, running them into the ground with a high tempo game. Juve are well known to have been involved in doping during this time. Maybe they were getting caught and cycled off, maybe United started playing the same game.

Now, what i believe each club may be involved in might not be technically illegal - they may be using new drugs or methods not banned - I would say that every top club is walking a very thin line.

Donnielighto

SherlockWatson wrote: »

It's not exactly far fetched it's something that Jose brought with him from Spain.

Maybe, I just think utd and arsenal are less likely due to older managers there long term , saf still being at the club and a figurehead.

GavRedKing

Mitch Connor wrote: »

What proof are people using to back this fact up?

Serious question? Is there prolonged statistical analysis showing he is consistently quicker now?

He is still very quick - obviously - but is he quicker? I don't know. If he is, it could be down to doing specialised training over the course of the last decade or so to improve a key component of his game. I'm not saying he has been doing specialised training, but it is more likely (imo) than doing drugs.

According to FIFA statistcs Arjan Robben cloacked up a speed of 37kph which
makes him the fastest player in the world cup history.

His previous best was in Bayern Munich shirt when he reached 30 kph speed

Its possible that through different coaching and training techniques his speed has improved without any use of PEDs, of course it is.

Trond

Liam O wrote: »

Demoted? How?

Well given that Carrick was selected as the main central defender (in the centre of the three) and Evans was put on the right which is probably his weakest side of the three.

Shows LVG has more faith in Carrick in the centre ahead of Evans which given their respective experience a centre backs you'd expect Evans to be our "senior" centre back.

GavRedKing

SherlockWatson wrote: »

It's not exactly far fetched it's something that Jose brought with him from Spain.

Hes brought the wrong stuff so with him so, it must have been kept for Ancellotti.

RayCun

According to FIFA statistcs Arjan Robben cloacked up a speed of 37kph which
makes him the fastest player in the world cup history.

His previous best was in Bayern Munich shirt when he reached 30 kph speed

GavRedKing wrote: »

Its possible that through different coaching and training techniques his speed has improved without any use of PEDs, of course it is.

Those FIFA statistics are a nonsense though. 37kph over what distance? And how accurate are their measurements? Bolt peaks at 44kmh for a 20m split, I very much doubt Robben gets near that - but he might have a 5m burst that is damn fast.


oh, and those statistics quoted? not right
actual FIFA statistics say Robben's top speed in the world cup was 32.2 km/h, outside the top 20 fastest players.

they also say the fastest players included 30 year old Junior Diaz, 29 year old Ron Vlaar, and lazy-ass Mario Balotelli, so you'll know to take those statistics with a couple of lorry-loads of salt

bucketybuck

Mitch Connor wrote: »

A friend always likes to point out the Juve/United games in the 90's. We regularly got a lesson, then from 97 or 98 we started physically dominating top sides, running them into the ground with a high tempo game. Juve are well known to have been involved in doping during this time. Maybe they were getting caught and cycled off, maybe United started playing the same game.

You don't need PED's to explain that though. In the few seasons before 97/98 I felt we were always too intimidated in Europe, too cautious tactically as well as struggling with the foreigner rules. We got lessons from the likes of Juve because we let them do it.

From around 97/98 you just start to see Fergie get more confident in Europe, we had been there a few seasons and were only now starting to believe that we were as good as the big European teams. We stopped being so cautious and were prepared to play our normal high tempo game, and the results followed.

The only PED we were on in the late nineties was self-belief.

Liam O

Trond wrote: »

Well given that Carrick was selected as the main central defender (in the centre of the three) and Evans was put on the right which is probably his weakest side of the three.

Shows LVG has more faith in Carrick in the centre ahead of Evans which given their respective experience a centre backs you'd expect Evans to be our "senior" centre back.

LVG had Vlaar as the center player in his 3 in the WC and he was probably the worst on the ball of the 3 at the back anyway. Evans was on the left on Sunday and started his first game back at a reasonable level of fitness. When he's fit he plays this season though it'll be interesting the next game if both Rojo and Jones are fit though with Shaw still out Rojo can cover LB for the moment anyway I guess.

Will I Amnt

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I reckon there is a degree of PED use at every top club, including United. The money involved at this level is too great to think every advantage won't be looked for.

A friend always likes to point out the Juve/United games in the 90's. We regularly got a lesson, then from 97 or 98 we started physically dominating top sides, running them into the ground with a high tempo game. Juve are well known to have been involved in doping during this time. Maybe they were getting caught and cycled off, maybe United started playing the same game.

Now, what i believe each club may be involved in might not be technically illegal - they may be using new drugs or methods not banned - I would say that every top club is walking a very thin line.

I think we would have heard about it by now; Keane for one wouldn't miss an opportunity like that to sell a few more books.

kryogen

bangkok wrote: »

how do you make that out he was lightning fast at Chelsea?

It was tested and thrown up on some panel, probably sky, not too long ago. Last season or the one before Id say

bangkok

bucketybuck wrote: »

You don't need PED's to explain that though. In the few seasons before 97/98 I felt we were always too intimidated in Europe, too cautious tactically as well as struggling with the foreigner rules. We got lessons from the likes of Juve because we let them do it.

From around 97/98 you just start to see Fergie get more confident in Europe, we had been there a few seasons and were only now starting to believe that we were as good as the big European teams. We stopped being so cautious and were prepared to play our normal high tempo game, and the results followed.

The only PED we were on in the late nineties was self-belief.

wouldn't say that now, Italian football had the strongest league in Europe, the likes of AC Milan, Juventus, Samdoria all very strong, then the money dried up and players left Italy and now its a long way off any team in Italy winning a European cup.

added in the fact that most Italian teams were using PED as well

Maximus Alexander

It wouldn't be particularly unusual for an athlete to be at their fastest at 29 / 30. I don't understand why this is a discussion.

Trond

Liam O wrote: »

LVG had Vlaar as the center player in his 3 in the WC and he was probably the worst on the ball of the 3 at the back anyway. Evans was on the left on Sunday and started his first game back at a reasonable level of fitness. When he's fit he plays this season though it'll be interesting the next game if both Rojo and Jones are fit though with Shaw still out Rojo can cover LB for the moment anyway I guess.

Yea I suppose we'll see. We actually have a shed load of options when they're all fit. Its actually very difficult to predict what his first choice back four might be.

The way I see it is he'll either sacrifice one of Smalling, Jones or Evans and buy another experienced centre back ala Godin or he'll leave it and see how good they are with an actual functioning midfield onfront of them.

I think having Blind and Carrick fit and available will provide much protection than they've been use to. Then there's the Strootman transfer as well.

Interesting times ahead.....

Billy86

GavRedKing wrote: »

Hopefully, although it wouldnt explain why all the top clubs just dont employ such easy to disguise tactics or else they do and the PEDs being used arent good enough which harks back to a poor medicial department.

Barcelona's team of unathletic, injury prone midgets developed strangely superhuman stamina (over periods of 60+ games with a tiny core squad) a number of years back while getting over most of their injury woes, only for it all to begin slipping apart right around the time that several Spanish doctors were implicated in the Lance Armstrong scandal...

Just saying, you know.

Lukker- wrote: »

Plenty of rumours about Bayern doping as far back as LVG. The likes of Robben, who is faster in his 30's now than he ever was at Chelsea at 23.

It's all unknown at this point, until football actually acknowledges the issue any talk is just pure speculation.

That's going to be difficult when you've got situations like Spanish judges ordering all blood samples related to athletes other than cyclists found at said doctors' premises to be destroyed without testing, and when some of these doctors (Fuentes, I believe) claim to have received death threats about if they ever exposed anything.

Again, just saying.

UnitedIrishman

Football would absolutely break in half if anything about that Barcelona team ever came out. They pretty much dominated football and were the apple of Michel Platini's eye. Not unlikely to think that they'd ensure nothing was ever brought to light.

Allegedly.

bangkok

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

Football would absolutely break in half if anything about that Barcelona team ever came out. They pretty much dominated football and were the apple of Michel Platini's eye. Not unlikely to think that they'd ensure nothing was ever brought to light.

Allegedly.

I will never forget this..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PENQDQ52SOY

I don't like Chelsea but couldn't believe how Barcelona got away with this. So blatant, they clearly had the ref paid off.

Winston Payne

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I think we would have heard about it by now; Keane for one wouldn't miss an opportunity like that to sell a few more books.

And ruin the only thing he has left? He'd be pushing the nuke on his own playing days there too.

Billy86

Not United related, but just with all the PEDs/cover up talk... SSN ticker is showing Michel Garcia has just resigned from the FIFA ethics committee. I wonder what dirt they dug up on him, or what threats were made because it's 100% definitely one or the other.

IrishIrish

Billy86 wrote: »

Not United related, but just with all the PEDs/cover up talk... SSN ticker is showing Michel Garcia has just resigned from the FIFA ethics committee. I wonder what dirt they dug up on him, or what threats were made because it's 100% definitely one or the other.

It really isn't. They rejected his appeal yesterday so it's hardly a surprise he would resign.

If anything 'its 100% definite' he has dirt on them.

Rayne Wooney

Lukker- wrote: »

Chelsea's lack of injuries has very little to do with luck. IMO there is something very wrong at United that can't be blamed on bad luck, more likely a poor medical department mixed with bad management of injuries and possibly something to do with training methods.

Your not the only club mind, Arsenal have been shocking for a while. You could perhaps say one season they were unlucky, but 5 or 6 concurrent seasons? You have to start looking at conditions. Chelsea haven't had a major injury crisis in the last 3 seasons and I don't thin that's down to luck,

I just find it hard to believe that a multi billion dollar business that relies on the fitness of it's employees would neglect or not be up to date with current methods

Trond

Billy86

IrishIrish wrote: »

It really isn't. They rejected his appeal yesterday so it's hardly a surprise he would resign.

If anything 'its 100% definite' he has dirt on them.

I hadn't actually seen that yesterday, which would explain his resigning (I thought he had done so while it was still awaiting a decision). But that's my point - he definitely does have tonnes of dirt on them, hopefully he is able to take this to a higher court of some description because FIFA are more openly corrupt than some despot dictatorships at this point. I wouldn't hold my breath though, since they are also more powerful (politically and financially) than most actual countries which is a little scary, to be honest. Hate to say it, but I think I might actually be happy if a bomb went off at one of their high council type meetings and killed the lot of them (just the guys at the top, that is).

Anyway, that's my rant for the night. :pac:

MagicMarker

Air Crash Investigations on National Geographic channel now is based on the Munich Disaster.

DrPhilG

Billy86 wrote: »

I think I might actually be happy if a bomb went off at one of their high council type meetings and killed the lot of them (just the guys at the top, that is).

You'd better hope that doesn't happen now, guess who'd be the top suspect...

Billy86

DrPhilG wrote: »

You'd better hope that doesn't happen now, guess who'd be the top suspect...

I'll just rob a few banks, pay some visits to the bottom 100 or so countries in FIFA, exchange brown envelopes for votes, get elected FIFA president, and openly make jokes about it all a few weeks later. Sorted.

The_Kew_Tour

From West Germany in 1954 to current Barca side drugs and football have been linked.

Read some great articles and stories but most are afraid to mention names for obvious reasons.

glued

Lukker- wrote: »

Chelsea's lack of injuries has very little to do with luck. IMO there is something very wrong at United that can't be blamed on bad luck, more likely a poor medical department mixed with bad management of injuries and possibly something to do with training methods.

Your not the only club mind, Arsenal have been shocking for a while. You could perhaps say one season they were unlucky, but 5 or 6 concurrent seasons? You have to start looking at conditions. Chelsea haven't had a major injury crisis in the last 3 seasons and I don't thin that's down to luck,

What a load of nonsense. Do you realise the variables that are play?

Simplicity leads people to draw the daftest of explanations. Over the past three seasons United have had three different managers and three different coaches. Chelsea have had the same fitness coach for a number of years. Consistency.

If the training methods were as bad and the training staff were as negligent as you suggest then wouldn't there be a lot more injuries? You do realise there is a very random nature to some injuries? Surely if what you're suggesting is true then there would be consistency to the nature of the injury? ie MCL/ACL etc. If van Gaal was running the players to hard then you would imagine there would be more hamstring injuries. If the training pitch was crap you would think there would be more ankle/foot injuries.

sReq | uTeK

Pro. F wrote: »

I'd love to see Mata playing number 10 behind Rooney and ahead of a four man midfield. He is a fantastic player, but he just isn't suited to these narrow formations that LVG has been trying to make work.

Imo, this front six:

Val/Young - Herrera - Carrick - Di Maria
Mata
Rooney

...would score a lot more goals and be more solid defensively than the formations with more strikers that LVG has been using.

how do you figure we would score more goals? What's it based on, your finger in the air ?

Trond

Di Maria won Argentinian player of year. 1st time in 8 years Messi didnt win it!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/angel-di-maria-crowned-argentina-4829799

Headshot

Trond wrote: »

Di Maria won Argentinian player of year. 1st time in 8 years Messi didnt win it!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/angel-di-maria-crowned-argentina-4829799

Rightfully so

He was immense, if was fit for the WC Final , Argentina would of won it

TheDoc

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

From West Germany in 1954 to current Barca side drugs and football have been linked.

Read some great articles and stories but most are afraid to mention names for obvious reasons.

The Spanish doctor who assisted lance armstrong in his doping, in court stated he was hired by Guardiola and utilised his techniques on the Barca squad.

The judge immediately broke for recess and came back to advise there should be no mention of other athletes, clubs or sports and that the court should disregard the comments made.

OBviously, as you imagine, twitterland went balistic, but of course nothing would be asked of Barcelona, to answer questions.

Same doctor I believe that worked with Guardiola as a player on obscure/questionable blood fusion techniques that had him under investigation.

I'm sure it will all come out in about 40 years. And we can sit comfy in the knowledge we should have won three CL's instead of 1 in that period.

Pro. F

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

how do you figure we would score more goals? What's it based on, your finger in the air ?

Oh look, it's my stalker. I already explained my reasoning in a subsequent post.

The_Kew_Tour

TheDoc wrote: »

The Spanish doctor who assisted lance armstrong in his doping, in court stated he was hired by Guardiola and utilised his techniques on the Barca squad.

The judge immediately broke for recess and came back to advise there should be no mention of other athletes, clubs or sports and that the court should disregard the comments made.

OBviously, as you imagine, twitterland went balistic, but of course nothing would be asked of Barcelona, to answer questions.

Same doctor I believe that worked with Guardiola as a player on obscure/questionable blood fusion techniques that had him under investigation.

I'm sure it will all come out in about 40 years. And we can sit comfy in the knowledge we should have won three CL's instead of 1 in that period.

Fuentes was a name on many peoples lips for some time.

The first time I got interested in doping in football was from few guys I worked with from Spain about 8 years back now

Cycling was the hot topic then.

Lance Armstrong was right about one thing , cycling is far from the dirtiest sport out there.

For now we can only speculate, but you can also notice tell tale signs even from players who retire and either A. Get old looking quickly B. Get bloated once they retire.

Of course its not always the case but you get the signs.

Sadly, I think the truth is bit away yet.

I'm great admirer of Paul Kimmage and his work. Love see him tackle football and I know he knows names and teams involved.

At present Rugby and doping in that is coming to main topic. Some don't like it, but the truth is coming around slowly. I mean there is one Irish rugby player who has all the hallmarks of steroid abuser.

Its not as hard to find as some think.

Getting the real proof is the thing.

Unless somebody really speaks out football and doping is long way from being clean, but you never know.

sReq | uTeK

Pro. F wrote: »

Oh look, it's my stalker. I already explained my reasoning in a subsequent post.

Your stalker who posts once a week if at all. Feel free to check the last time I've quoted you. Id wager its a month + serious stalker material, but yea I will call you out the tripe you continually post just for ****s n giggles.

Nalz

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Your stalker who posts once a week if at all. Feel free to check the last time I've quoted you. Id wager its a month + serious stalker material, but yea I will call you out the tripe you continually post just for ****s n giggles.

Hi!!

Billy86

TheDoc wrote: »

The Spanish doctor who assisted lance armstrong in his doping, in court stated he was hired by Guardiola and utilised his techniques on the Barca squad.

The judge immediately broke for recess and came back to advise there should be no mention of other athletes, clubs or sports and that the court should disregard the comments made.

OBviously, as you imagine, twitterland went balistic, but of course nothing would be asked of Barcelona, to answer questions.

Same doctor I believe that worked with Guardiola as a player on obscure/questionable blood fusion techniques that had him under investigation.

I'm sure it will all come out in about 40 years. And we can sit comfy in the knowledge we should have won three CL's instead of 1 in that period.

Wasn't that Jorge Fuentes? I'm quite sure that a medical facility of his got raided in relation to the cycling scandal and (going completely off memory here) they found about 200 total blood bags for EPO transfusions and the like, only about 60 of which were related to cyclists. The judge in the case (I am assuming same one) ordered not only that the 140-odd non cycling ones not be tested but also ordered they be destroyed before any attempts to even identify whose blood they were could be made - it's amazing how no higher bodies stepped in, to be honest. Considering how badly Spain were hit by the GFC a few years back, and their international successes (as well as Barca) which would have likely proved a huge boost to national morale as well as helping the economy, the Tinfoilhatist in me wouldn't be surprised if this went very high up, beyond sporting bodies.

UnitedIrishman

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I'm great admirer of Paul Kimmage and his work. Love see him tackle football and I know he knows names and teams involved.

At present Rugby and doping in that is coming to main topic. Some don't like it, but the truth is coming around slowly. I mean there is one Irish rugby player who has all the hallmarks of steroid abuser.

I've read a lot of Kimmage's books and David Walsh's too but he's really doing himself no favours with the rugby allegations right now. When he was writing about cycling he had genuine and founded stuff to write on - using team names etc. But now he's just vaguely thrown it out there going 'rugby is awash with drugs'. By not doing some proper investigation stuff or without a whistleblower of any kind he's ruining his own reputation by just lazily throwing out the accusation about modern rugby. (I'm aware his initial point was about a team from 2007 and their use of a certain personal doctor).

The_Kew_Tour

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

I've read a lot of Kimmage's books and David Walsh's too but he's really doing himself no favours with the rugby allegations right now. When he was writing about cycling he had genuine and founded stuff to write on - using team names etc. But now he's just vaguely thrown it out there going 'rugby is awash with drugs'. By not doing some proper investigation stuff or without a whistleblower of any kind he's ruining his own reputation by just lazily throwing out the accusation about modern rugby. (I'm aware his initial point was about a team from 2007 and their use of a certain personal doctor).

It depends what side of fence you are on.

Laurent Benezech account of teams and players doping should be real eye opener.

Here is a man who played last highest level and a very renowned player in France.

Kimmage knows names and teams, you can be sure of that. For legal reasons he is static, for now.

Brian Carney the former Munster and Wigan warriors player did great piece on drugs in Sport a while back. Will link it here if can find it.

Pro. F

sReq | uTeK wrote: »

Your stalker who posts once a week if at all. Feel free to check the last time I've quoted you. Id wager its a month + serious stalker material, but yea I will call you out the tripe you continually post just for ****s n giggles.

The last time you quoted me you got a yellow for continuing to be obnoxious after the mod had asked you to stop. Now you are back with the same type of shìte again. Deny it if you want, but you clearly have a thing for me.

The_Kew_Tour

https://m.facebook.com/offtheball/posts/412891168802402

Here is the Brian Carney interview. Its best I could find. Hope it works.

Sorry if going waaayyy off topic

Hank Scorpio

Keano and TC23 must not be the best of buds :pac:

Hococop

Billy86 wrote: »

Wasn't that Jorge Fuentes? I'm quite sure that a medical facility of his got raided in relation to the cycling scandal and (going completely off memory here) they found about 200 total blood bags for EPO transfusions and the like, only about 60 of which were related to cyclists. The judge in the case (I am assuming same one) ordered not only that the 140-odd non cycling ones not be tested but also ordered they be destroyed before any attempts to even identify whose blood they were could be made - it's amazing how no higher bodies stepped in, to be honest. Considering how badly Spain were hit by the GFC a few years back, and their international successes (as well as Barca) which would have likely proved a huge boost to national morale as well as helping the economy, the Tinfoilhatist in me wouldn't be surprised if this went very high up, beyond sporting bodies.

Interesting but if it eventually came out that most of the Spanish and barca team were guilty of this what would happen?, fines, ban the country from competing in international football for a few years or stripped of their titles (European, world cup, LA liga, cl etc)?

Rayne Wooney

The thing about PEDs is if the most successful club was doing them and with the massive money involved in football, other big clubs would surely raise some questions unless they also were doing them. I doubt if Madrid had suspicions of Barca they wouldn't try and expose it unless they would implicate themselves.

The only thing is I've never seen a United team that have pressed so relentlessly that have led to me wondering about strange endurance levels.

Ulysses Gaze

nuxxx wrote: »

Keano and TC23 must not be the best of buds :pac:

If that is true then Keane is a complete lunatic.

kryogen

nuxxx wrote: »

Keano and TC23 must not be the best of buds :pac:

I love the good old media sensationalism too in fairness, if there is any truth to it whatsoever, he could have gone round his house, like a lunatic swinging from a can of Harp screaming for Cleverley to come out and fight him, or he could have called round, to talk about some rumours he had heard and see what Cleverley had to say.

With Keane it will always be written one way of course.

It smells like another non story though, shame though, if he did head in there like a raving lunatic I imagine it would have been a hilarious sight to watch TC23 **** all over himself.

Cantona's Collars

He called round for a bit of a kickabout in the garden but as usual TC23 went missing.