Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

Cantona's Collars

kryogen wrote: »

Carrick is over his injury, but he is a long way from being sharp enough to slot straight back in, so it will be a case of slow reintroduction to the squad. I feel he will still be an important player for us over the season. We need someone who can come in and take the sting out of a game.

FYP,it's nice to have a squad rather than Carrick & the clown show we've had.

bangkok

zerks wrote: »

I can imagine LVG's reaction when he sees Carrick time & again doing just like Valencia did here.

I don't think you will see carrick doing much of that to be honest. He is one of our players that passes forward most of the time and the stats are there to prove it

Pro. F

zerks wrote: »

A lot of blaming our midfield for the shambles against Leicester,remember a lot of our problems stemmed from direct balls over our defence that they seemed incapable of defending.This is nothing new,I remember Liverpool doing the same against us.We were opened up time & again by Sunday League style long balls.

The back four were very disorganised that game, no doubt. But the midfield were also rubbish at holding onto the ball when we were under pressure. It's been the same all season, other than Di Maria shaping the game by beating multiple opponents on his own, the midfield has been muck at controlling the game. Blind has been the biggest culprit in that.

MagicMarker

bangkok wrote: »

I don't think you will see carrick doing much of that to be honest. He is one of our players that passes forward most of the time and the stats are there to prove it

I think you'll find stats prove most players pass forward most of the time.

Pro. F

kryogen wrote: »

Carrick is over his injury, but he is a long way from being sharp enough to slot straight back in, so it will be a case of slow reintroduction to the team. I feel he will still be an important player for us over the season. We need someone who can come in and take the sting out of a game.

Pity we spent all that money and didn't buy a central midfielder who could have been clearly better than Carrick, sting removal and all.

kryogen

Pro. F wrote: »

The back four were very disorganised that game, no doubt. But the midfield were also rubbish at holding onto the ball when we were under pressure. It's been the same all season, other than Di Maria shaping the game by beating multiple opponents on his own, the midfield has been muck at controlling the game. Blind has been the biggest culprit in that.

Yeah, well, he is still twice the player TC23 is!!!!

*Runs and takes cover

keane2097

There aren't really any midfields that don't struggle when opposition press them in a concerted way high up the pitch.

Cantona's Collars

kryogen wrote: »

Yeah, well, he is still twice the player TC23 is!!!!

*Runs and takes cover

Jaysus,even "Turn back Tony" played better in midfield than TC23.

bangkok

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/22081499

akelly02

Nuts102 wrote: »

How has Blind proven to be better in that position. The only game i could say he done well was QPR which was no test.

WE conceded 5 against Leicester, we got overrun in the second half against West Ham, Blind was good the first half against Everton when he was given time and space he was poor in the second half when they pressed more.

Carrick's positioning and covering the back 4 is far superior imo. Also their is a big difference in what Carrick played with and what Blind played with. Carrick had Anderson, Giggs, Cleverley etc to show for the ball.

Blind has had Herrera and Di Maria looking for the ball a fair difference in the quality of midfielder showing for the ball.

Carrick has a good passing range we signed him for his ability playing further up the field. Fergie moved him deeper protecting the back 4 and keeping it simple and he has been very good at it.

Ok, Keep a good eye on Carricks 'Positioning' etc over the next few months, its nowhere near the level of Blind, he doesnt tackle at all, never mind as well as Blind, and he's as slow as the Titanic. IMO there isnt one thing Carrick can do that Blind cant do better.

akelly02

bangkok wrote: »

I don't think you will see carrick doing much of that to be honest. He is one of our players that passes forward most of the time and the stats are there to prove it

That is definately not true, our biggest culprit alongside TC23

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

There aren't really any midfields that don't struggle when opposition press them in a concerted way high up the pitch.

There are plenty who can overcome it and help their teams play out from the back even when being pressed. Carrick definitely isn't able to and Blind looks like he's the same.

kryogen

Pro. F wrote: »

Pity we spent all that money and didn't buy a central midfielder who could have been clearly better than Carrick, sting removal and all.

From listening to Van Gaal he feels Carrick is an important player for the club and was very upset to be without him to injury...I like our midfield the way it is shaping up, what Carrick can bring to the party is experience at seeing games out which we have sorely been lacking. Hopefully he will provide the calming influence, Van Gaal has often had limited players, like Gustavo and Van Bommel that he rates highly for certain roles

My take on it is that he understands, naturally, all the problems in the team are not going to be solved with one window, or player, and I think he has his eye on Strootman simply because he seems to rate him so highly but needs to see how he returns from his injury I guess. The options of Hererra, Blind, Di Maria, Carrick, Fellaini etc are maybe enough in his mind, enough combinations there for him to work with until he makes a decision regarding Strootman or whether we will have to go for someone else?

Obviously the midfield has not been solved, and was not going to be in one window, but it is a damn sight better then it has been for a while and I am happy with the progress, the more the likes of Blind and Hererra play together and play for the club the better they should get (in theory!) and a midfield that is greater then the sum of its parts with a strong understanding will always be important to a team looking to challenge at the highest levels of the game.

Carrick is not a guaranteed first choice anymore, that is a good thing isn't it? He may not have been replaced like for like, though you could argue Blind will grow into that role given time, but the midfield itself has improved over the summer and as long as improvements continue to be made there I will be happy. Van Gaal has said himself many times, he is not a short term coach, he is always thinking long term and I like what he has done so far so am more then happy to see what he has in mind for the next year or so also. Phasing out Carrick and adding more quality to compliment the players already brought in and emerging is an exciting prospect.

duffman13

It is a big possibility that Carrick and Blind could be player together for the Chelsea game, potentially with Herrera, with Di Maria on one wing and Rooney on the other. I think that set up gives us a fighting chance against Chelsea to nick something.

Actually is Rooney still suspended for Chelsea?

kryogen

akelly02 wrote: »

Ok, Keep a good eye on Carricks 'Positioning' etc over the next few months, its nowhere near the level of Blind, he doesnt tackle at all, never mind as well as Blind, and he's as slow as the Titanic. IMO there isnt one thing Carrick can do that Blind cant do better.

He reads the game better, he shields the back four better. Two things off the top of my head

SherlockWatson

akelly02 wrote: »

Ok, Keep a good eye on Carricks 'Positioning' etc over the next few months, its nowhere near the level of Blind, he doesnt tackle at all, never mind as well as Blind, and he's as slow as the Titanic. IMO there isnt one thing Carrick can do that Blind cant do better.

Clueless, Carrick is an excellent reader of the game and his positioning is fantastic, criminally underrated by United fans.

bangkok

akelly02 wrote: »

Ok, Keep a good eye on Carricks 'Positioning' etc over the next few months, its nowhere near the level of Blind, he doesnt tackle at all, never mind as well as Blind, and he's as slow as the Titanic. IMO there isnt one thing Carrick can do that Blind cant do better.

id say you have seen blind play a total of 5-6 full games and yet you think carrick isn't near his "standard"

to say carrick doesn't tackle I presume you are taking the p1ss or have barely seen him play?

bangkok

http://therepublikofmancunia.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Carrick-stats-comparison1.jpg

homerjay2005

keane2097 wrote: »

There aren't really any midfields that don't struggle when opposition press them in a concerted way high up the pitch.

exactly and this is something that a huge portion of football fans and managers, fail to realise. looks at the jobs Welbeck and Park did for example against Madrid and Milan in the champions league games.

give a top player space and they will wreck havoc but if you have a player who is disciplined and fit enough to get close to them, there is not alot they can do. a huge part of why we were so poor last season, is that teams sat back and left our midfield have the ball, but mostly around half way. our midfield then had no impact on the game further up the pitch, as they didnt have the space (or ability) to break through the oppositions pressing game.

its a very simple tactic in football that constantly gets overlooked.

Pro. F

kryogen wrote: »

From listening to Van Gaal he feels Carrick is an important player for the club and was very upset to be without him to injury...I like our midfield the way it is shaping up, what Carrick can bring to the party is experience at seeing games out which we have sorely been lacking. Hopefully he will provide the calming influence, Van Gaal has often had limited players, like Gustavo and Van Bommel that he rates highly for certain roles

My take on it is that he understands, naturally, all the problems in the team are not going to be solved with one window, or player, and I think he has his eye on Strootman simply because he seems to rate him so highly but needs to see how he returns from his injury I guess. The options of Hererra, Blind, Di Maria, Carrick, Fellaini etc are maybe enough in his mind, enough combinations there for him to work with until he makes a decision regarding Strootman or whether we will have to go for someone else?

Obviously the midfield has not been solved, and was not going to be in one window, but it is a damn sight better then it has been for a while and I am happy with the progress, the more the likes of Blind and Hererra play together and play for the club the better they should get (in theory!) and a midfield that is greater then the sum of its parts with a strong understanding will always be important to a team looking to challenge at the highest levels of the game.

Carrick is not a guaranteed first choice anymore, that is a good thing isn't it? He may not have been replaced like for like, though you could argue Blind will grow into that role given time, but the midfield itself has improved over the summer and as long as improvements continue to be made there I will be happy. Van Gaal has said himself many times, he is not a short term coach, he is always thinking long term and I like what he has done so far so am more then happy to see what he has in mind for the next year or so also. Phasing out Carrick and adding more quality to compliment the players already brought in and emerging is an exciting prospect.

Van Gaal's previous use of players like Gustavo and Van Bommel does indicate that he likes these sorts of do-a-job CMs all right. Blind looks like another one in the mold and Carrick wrote the book on it. Even Strootman - who has some other amazing additional skills, like his shooting and athleticism - is lacking when it comes to the bread-and-butter close control and short passing CM job, but that wouldn't stop LVG loving him.

Maybe Van Gaal feels he needs CMs with these defensive qualities to implement a particular game plan, like a high pressing game or something. Or maybe he ends up needing them because he has problems organising defences for the highest level.

I'm certainly willing to be patient, but the manager still has it all to prove at the club. He has spent shît loads of money and talked a lot. Currently the midfield and defence aren't nearly as effective as they were during Fergie's last season, and I wouldn't be holding up anybody - the new manager or the new DCM - for praise for having fixed anything yet.

advertsfox

bangkok wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/22081499

Good stats posted on the BBC:

Spazdarn

kryogen wrote: »

He reads the game better, he shields the back four better. Two things off the top of my head

Carrick was the shield in front of the defence last season, how did that go?

I'm not ready to claim Blind is a better player, as we don't have enough examples to really judge, but he's more mobile, he's quicker to the tackle, and he's not as prone to passing backwards and sideways when under pressure.

No benefit in passing it backwards, when we've a defence that poor.

Pro. F

Spazdarn wrote: »

Carrick was the shield in front of the defence last season, how did that go?

United had the fifth best record in the league for goals conceded, one place better than the previous season. Of all the things you could criticise Carrick for, protecting the back four is definitely not one.

Spazdarn

Pro. F wrote: »

United had the fifth best record in the league for goals conceded, one place better than the previous season. Of all the things you could criticise Carrick for, protecting the back four is definitely not one.

Fair point,

But the underlying point still stands, Carrick should be phased out, considering his age. Any remnants of that underperforming midfield (I include Fletcher and Anderson too) need to be marginalized and replaced with better quality players. We need more than players who do a job, Carrick does have qualities to offer. I just want our midfielders to offer more.

Blind is young and new to the team, so you can't really compare the two yet.

Pro. F

Spazdarn wrote: »

Fair point,

But the underlying point still stands, Carrick should be phased out, considering his age. Any remnants of that underperforming midfield (I include Fletcher and Anderson too) need to be marginalized and replaced with better quality players. We need more than players who do a job, Carrick does have qualities to offer. I just want our midfielders to offer more.

Blind is young and new to the team, so you can't really compare the two yet.

Blind has been meh so far. He might go on to prove himself, but you are jumping the gun saying that he's so much better than Carrick when in possession. He hasn't shown that at all yet.

Nolars

This will prob be Carricks last season hes getting on now and LVG will bring in Strootman or someone so his playing time will be very limited.

Spazdarn

Pro. F wrote: »

Blind has been meh so far. He might go on to prove himself, but you are jumping the gun saying that he's so much better than Carrick when in possession. He hasn't shown that at all yet.

I don't really agree I've been happy enough with how he has performed to be honest.

If the team is getting overrun, it's not the responsibility of only Blind to alleviate that. The rest of the team have to put in a shift too.

Pro. F

Spazdarn wrote: »

I don't really agree I've been happy enough with how he has performed to be honest.

If the team is getting overrun, it's not the responsibility of only Blind to alleviate that. The rest of the team have to put in a shift too.

It's not only one player's responsibility indeed. I would say that Hererra needs to become more disciplined in his use of the ball too. But Blind is clearly the weakest link in that midfield when the team is in possession and he has shown no signs of being better than Carrick in that regard.

advertsfox

Fellaini forgot to take off his Juan Mata backpack in training today :P

TheDoc

I personally like Blind. And think he does nice things.

He seems a very calm prescense and from a lot of good things we do it starts with him. He's played a lot of direct balls into the final third accurately and bar some hiccups I thought he has done well.

He's also done well in his defensive duties and seems to sniff out danger via interceptions pretty well.

I think he will kick on as he gets more games. He's not a physical presence but more of a game reader and that takes some games to understand the flow of how things work in a new league. I'd be pretty dissapointed to be honest seeing him being removed for Carrick. I think our Midfield seems more fluid and dynamic with him at the base.

RayCun

Spazdarn wrote: »

If the team is getting overrun, it's not the responsibility of only Blind to alleviate that. The rest of the team have to put in a shift too.

Which is also true of Carrick when he was playing that same position

Spazdarn

TheDoc wrote: »

I personally like Blind. And think he does nice things.

He seems a very calm prescense and from a lot of good things we do it starts with him. He's played a lot of direct balls into the final third accurately and bar some hiccups I thought he has done well.

He's also done well in his defensive duties and seems to sniff out danger via interceptions pretty well.

I think he will kick on as he gets more games. He's not a physical presence but more of a game reader and that takes some games to understand the flow of how things work in a new league. I'd be pretty dissapointed to be honest seeing him being removed for Carrick. I think our Midfield seems more fluid and dynamic with him at the base.

Yeah we're transitioning between defence and attack much quicker, our attacking play was dire last season, really laboured...

Spazdarn

RayCun wrote: »

Which is also true of Carrick when he was playing that same position

Carrick would have had better defenders behind him.

Mitch Connor

TheDoc wrote: »

I think our Midfield seems more fluid and dynamic with him at the base.

Possibly this is the case - but there is also a good chance having Di Maria and Herrera to pass to (or Di Maria and... err... Valencia) is making it more mobile. Maybe the same formation with Fellaini and Cleverley as the other two midfielders would see it as stagnant as we saw last season with Carrick.

Our full backs are also much more part of the attack than they were under Moyes, so that will aid the midfield distribution and mobility.

A lot of changes in both tactics and personel since Carrick was in our midfield, so I think it would be very unfair to say the improvements are down to him being replaced - without having seen him have a proper shot in the same circumstances as Blind.

I think Moyes' was incredibly defensive in his style last season, which inhibited Carrick, Cleverley, Rafael and Evra, as well as others. I'd like to see how Carrick does with better players and a more offensive mindset to the side.

RayCun

Spazdarn wrote: »

Carrick would have had better defenders behind him.

True, which explains why there weren't too many goals conceded.
But (for all that I like Blind) he would have been painfully exposed playing regularly alongside Cleverley and Fellaini, and Carrick would have looked much better last year playing with Di Maria and Herrera.

Billy86

TheDoc wrote: »

I'd be pretty dissapointed to be honest seeing him being removed for Carrick. I think our Midfield seems more fluid and dynamic with him at the base.

To be fair though... Herrera/Di Maria vs Fletcher/Anderson/Fellaini.

irishfeen

https://twitter.com/ManUtd/status/523126326119899136

Some good news!

Whatsisname

Moyes has given Dan Roan of the BBC an interview.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/29662220

MagicIRL

Top professional. Didn't like his style of play at United but as a man I've nothing bad to say about him. Would love to see him return to the game.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29662220

TheDoc

If anything has come out of the star of LVG reign is that probably Moyes has been a little vindicated and rightly so.

He went into the club and the initial delusion was he was provided a top team that would be competitive for years.

Its worth remembering that everytime. As stated by Gill before Moyes was announced...and then Woodward in his board address around January.

The scramble for players last summer was because the club did not expect to have to make signings and Moyes indicated the squad was not first for purpose.

I think its really important to remember that. CB,LB,DM,Striker ,CM. What Moyes indicated to the club needed sorting out.

He has a lot of ready made excuses to be fair to him he's kept quiet and gone about his business. A lot of managers would be in the papers every week making excuses etc. Moyes has been pretty amicable in what was IMO a pretty rubbish way we went about sacking him...

Nalz

irishfeen wrote: »

https://twitter.com/ManUtd/status/523126326119899136

Some good news!

Who's the four?

Jones, Valencia, McNair, Lingard ?????

Lord TSC

TheDoc wrote: »

He has a lot of ready made excuses to be fair to him he's kept quiet and gone about his business. A lot of managers would be in the papers every week making excuses etc. Moyes has been pretty amicable in what was IMO a pretty rubbish way we went about sacking him...

He's had to be quiet and patient imo. He was toxic when he lost the United job, a job which had been widely advertised as a "job for life, we don't sack our managers". Had he come out mouthing about what happened, if he'd been in the papers like that not being amicable, he'd have made himself even more undesirable.

By staying quite, he maintained the status of being "a nice guy" and not brought more criticism of his ability (via retorts, etc) on top of himself. By staying out of the limelight, he's not had the pundits further examining his abilities, which means he'll get a bigger job easier.

Billy86

Now let's be honest about Moyes - yes there were definitely holes in the squad, but at the same time he did have Vidic and Ferdinand at CB on top of Evans, so was not exactly in dire straits there. Up front he could not complain with RVP, Rooney, Hernandez and Welbeck. LB with Evra well past it, the wide spots, and CM he was in a bad spot with... but in the same breath, many reports said he went with Fellaini over Herrera in the end because he had seen more of Fellaini. That was one of the worst signings the club has made in a long, long, long time and was entirely down to him - Herrera would not have made all the difference but is obviously a massive upgrade. At LB, we could have had Coentrao who Madrid were basically trying to throw at us on loan, but again missed out because of Moyes blind insistence on chasing Leighton Baines which also led to Fellaini costing us more (and who also would not have been good enough for a top team, in my estimation).

On the pitch, he had some major flaws also. Even though our midfield was weak, he had no idea (or at least no interest) when it came to using our best player there in Carrick correctly, who had been the best DM in the league the year prior. He got a guy who was never a great athlete but was as good as anyone in the league positionally at CM, and tried to get him to turn into a workhorse along with whoever partnered him. He then made this worse by insisting upon a deep defensive line and out forwards/wingers typically staying quite high up the pitch.

And yes, he was left with poor wide players in Young/Valencia as well as the eternal question mark that is/was Nani (and I will fully credit him with getting Januzaj going)... but he did nothing to combat this. He just insisted on "get wide and cross" over and over and over and over. Even when we got a top end #10 in Mata he still persisted for a long time in playing like this, trying to turn him into a winger which he was never going to work as in that system. Of course the height of this (and the real tipping point for a lot of United fan I know) was bragging about breaking the league record for crosses in a home game with Fulham, when it wasn't having much effect at all (one of their CBs commented how it played right into their hands since he had played in the Conference for a good while, if I recall) and would up in a 2-2 draw at home to the bottom club in the league.

And that was the real issue with Moyes... he had no idea what to do when we took a lead. Some tried to label it as "just unlucky" but the fact is whenever we went up a goal you could guarantee that we would just throw 8 men behind the ball and desperately try to cling on for dear life rather than doing what we always did, which was keeping to what had got us ahead and looking to expand our lead. It didn't matter who we were playing against, top 4 quality side, midtable team, relegation fodder... once we had a lead with 20-25 minutes left his game plan was similar to what a newly promoted team would do against the league champions. Even though we held on (just barely, and in large part thanks to DDG if I recall) the Olympiakos game was the height of this, and again was a tipping point for many.

Don't get me wrong, he seems a very decent fella, I wish him the best moving forward and he has proven to be a good manager in the mid table type of range - Newcastle for example may do well to pick him up if Pardew gets the sack. Bit that is about his ceiling, he proved to be completely out of his depth on a number of levels and simply just not up to the task.

The Moldy Gowl

You have a few sensationalist things there Billy.


Nonetheless, Moyes, Schmoyes.

Nalz

Trilla wrote: »

Who's the four?

Jones, Valencia, McNair, Lingard ?????

Fumpy bumpy!

Your Airbag

Guys I've been traveling through Eastern Europe this past week with another to go and haven't got a sniff of news. Its hard to get a good wifi connection in a Sarajevo hostel

I'd appreciate it if someone filled me in on any important news I may have missed.

Liam O

If Herrera is still out play both Blind and Carrick imo. Just not Carrick and Fellaini again please. I don't know my internal anger could handle it

Vic Vinegar

Your Airbag wrote: »

Guys I've been traveling through Eastern Europe this past week with another to go and haven't got a sniff of news. Its hard to get a good wifi connection in a Sarajevo hostel

I'd appreciate it if someone filled me in on any important news I may have missed.

Not much happening man, it's a little quiet due to the International break.

Injuries are easing though.

bucketybuck

TheDoc wrote: »

He went into the club and the initial delusion was he was provided a top team that would be competitive for years.

This simply isn't true.

I weep to remember the millions of words written lamenting the state of our team and especially our midfield in the summer of Moyes arrival.

Liam O

Moyes biggest failing was his misuse of Kagawa early in the season, especially when Rooney and RVP were injured. Could have made all the difference in those games where the team looked panicked and unable to hold possession in the middle.