Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

31-12-2014 3:46pm

Thoughts on the match tomorrow? Going to be another really tough game for Utd tomorrow, tbh I can see Stoke nicking it or a draw being most likely. Good thing is Utd haven't conceded more than one goal in a game for ages now, but at times away from home for me Utd just don't look like scoring goals.

31-12-2014 3:49pm

SherlockWatson wrote: »

As do twát and çunt but people can still act as both.

What about 'axe wound', that's one from where I come from?

RobertKK · 31-12-2014 4:28pm

Bryson Delightful Ruler wrote: »

Thoughts on the match tomorrow? Going to be another really tough game for Utd tomorrow, tbh I can see Stoke nicking it or a draw being most likely. Good thing is Utd haven't conceded more than one goal in a game for ages now, but at times away from home for me Utd just don't look like scoring goals.

Stoke at home is always a tough game as you say, combining with our away form...a draw or a win.
Hopefully Begovic is not on top form like Hugo Lloris was the last day, United need to be far more clinical in finishing off chances too.
The stats though are far more positive for United away to Stoke than they are with Spurs away.
We lost there under Moyes last season, but before that we had three wins and a draw.

I will go for a win by one goal.

Headshot · 31-12-2014 4:38pm

I have a bad feeling about the Stoke game. They'll have 11 men behind the ball and kicking the opposition

Backstreet Moyes · 31-12-2014 4:49pm

Spazdarn wrote: »

No he does.

Except your talking sh!te he averages a yellow every 4.5 games. No need make up things to back up your story.

Kerrydude1981 · 31-12-2014 4:49pm

Headshot wrote: »

I have a bad feeling about the Stoke game. They'll have 11 men behind the ball and kicking the opposition

Charlie Adam going around acting the hard man.

Backstreet Moyes · 31-12-2014 4:50pm

Headshot wrote: »

I have a bad feeling about the Stoke game. They'll have 11 men behind the ball and kicking the opposition

Have you watched Stoke in recent years. They don't put 11 men behind the ball they scored 4 against arsenal and attacked Chelsea.

Also besides Adam they don't hack down players that much these days.

Backstreet Moyes · 31-12-2014 4:52pm

Billy86 wrote: »

That's the thing though, he's not really all that great defensively and as a result Everton have never asked him to defend much for them. As we have seen with Valencia/Young, Louis wants his fullbacks to be good defensively or else he whips out the 3-5-2.

Not saying I wouldn't be happy to get him (though my main issue would be his transfer fee) but he sometimes gets overrated a lot on boards.

Like i said Coleman is a bit overrated. He has shown for Ireland when his main job is to defend that he is nothing special at defending. He also has a fairly good strike rate for own goals.

Himself and Rafael are both great going forward but Rafael can;t stay fit so i would be happy with Coleman.

31-12-2014 4:58pm

Headshot wrote: »

I have a bad feeling about the Stoke game. They'll have 11 men behind the ball and kicking the opposition

I don't think that's fair at all, they try to play a bit of football these days. Obviously that is constrained somewhat by the quality of their players, but they aren't an ultra-defensive team anymore.

Billy86 · 31-12-2014 5:20pm

Nuts102 wrote: »

Like i said Coleman is a bit overrated. He has shown for Ireland when his main job is to defend that he is nothing special at defending. He also has a fairly good strike rate for own goals.

Himself and Rafael are both great going forward but Rafael can;t stay fit so i would be happy with Coleman.

Yeah the fitness issue has become a major one at this point, just have to chuckle though when I see some people claim Coleman is this unbelievable player without holes in his game while also claiming Rafael is some kind of liability who (in terms of ability, not fitness) is not up to it. Wouldn't doubt for a second with many of them that if Coleman were Brazilian and Rafael Irish that their opinions wouldn't be the same.

Personally I would have RB maybe third on the list of priorities behind CM and CB. We do need extra there of course, but I would take a top end CM and CB with a good RB to compete for the spot over Coleman, and top class CM/CB and the other CM/CB being more of a Blind/Rojo type signing, if that makes sense?

phenom · 31-12-2014 5:30pm

Bryson Delightful Ruler wrote: »

I don't think that's fair at all, they try to play a bit of football these days. Obviously that is constrained somewhat by the quality of their players, but they aren't an ultra-defensive team anymore.

I can't see it being any other way other than a defensive style of play with counter attacking their game plan, we have a strong attacking line , one of the best in the league, our problems is our defence and at that we still haven't seen our strongest defence line yet with the players we have due to injuries.

Without question I would be looking for United to buy a quality holding midfielder in January ,

Right Turn Clyde · 31-12-2014 5:36pm

Headshot wrote: »

I have a bad feeling about the Stoke game. They'll have 11 men behind the ball and kicking the opposition

Very lazy. You obviously haven't seen Stoke play lately. Fair enough, they're not an attacking force, but they're not the Stoke of old, and Mark Hughes will fancy having a go at United's makeshift defence.

Spazdarn · 31-12-2014 5:44pm

Nuts102 wrote: »

Except your talking sh!te he averages a yellow every 4.5 games. No need make up things to back up your story.

That's more than enough for the amount of minutes he spends on the pitch!!

Will I Amnt · 31-12-2014 5:45pm

Right Turn Clyde wrote: »

Very lazy. You obviously haven't seen Stoke play lately. Fair enough, they're not an attacking force, but they're not the Stoke of old, and Mark Hughes will fancy having a go at United's makeshift defence.

I don't care what way Stoke play, a team with possibly Shawcross, Adam, Huth, N'Zonzi and Bardsley in it is one to be concerned about.

Pro. F · 31-12-2014 5:48pm

Kirby wrote: »

Wonder if Pro.F is watching the game. The "best DM in the league" is getting the run around at the moment.

First of all, I didn't say that Britton is the best DM, I said that he has been the best DM over the last few years. Whether he gets back to that level, returning from half a season off with a knee injury at his age, remains to be seen.

On the game on Monday, yes I was watching it. Britton played well even though he was having to do so much work covering for Shelvey's lazy ass. Maybe if you had paid more attention, instead of posting on boards during the game, you would have seen that for yourself.

Vic Vinegar · 31-12-2014 5:53pm

phenom wrote: »

Without question I would be looking for United to buy a quality holding midfielder in January ,

We have two already. I'd be wanting us to sign a box to box type if we were signing a midfielder.

RB and CB has to be priority though IMO.

The Moldy Gowl · 31-12-2014 5:53pm

Spazdarn wrote: »

That's more than enough for the amount of minutes he spends on the pitch!!

But that stat is per minutes on the pitch?

He is hardly getting yellows when he isn't playing.

Right Turn Clyde · 31-12-2014 5:55pm

Will I Amnt wrote: »

I don't care what way Stoke play, a team with possibly Shawcross, Adam, Huth, N'Zonzi and Bardsley in it is one to be concerned about.

Every team in the league has players that we should be concerned about, but that doesn't justify attributing to them a style of play that is not theirs. Stoke City, at this moment in time, are not an overtly defensive team, especially when facing the so-called 'big teams'.

FutureGuy · 31-12-2014 5:57pm

I love Rafael but Coleman is a better player by a considerable distance. Sorry.

If we're shelling 30 for Shaw, an equivalent figure for Coleman would be the least we can expect.

Lucas Hood · 31-12-2014 5:59pm

FutureGuy wrote: »

I love Rafael but Coleman is a better player by a considerable distance. Sorry.

If we're shelling 30 for Shaw, an equivalent figure for Coleman would be the least we can expect.

Shaw is homegrown that always adds on extra.

RasTa · 31-12-2014 6:00pm

Pro. F wrote: »

First of all, I didn't say that Britton is the best DM, I said that he has been the best DM over the last few years. Whether he gets back to that level, returning from half a season off with a knee injury at his age, remains to be seen.

On the game on Monday, yes I was watching it. Britton played well even though he was having to do so much work covering for Shelvey's lazy ass. Maybe if you had paid more attention, instead of posting on boards during the game, you would have seen that for yourself.

I watched that game to see what he was like and was actually impressed at his passing ability, probably the best on the pitch at moving the ball.

However as a DM it's a big no no, went missing for 2 of Liverpools goals and generally awful at the defensive side. No surprise he was hauled off after 65mins.

The Moldy Gowl · 31-12-2014 6:01pm

Lucas Hood wrote: »

Shaw is homegrown that always adds on extra.

What about Coleman.

Don't know much about his club history

beno619 · 31-12-2014 6:01pm

FutureGuy wrote: »

I love Rafael but Coleman is a better player by a considerable distance. Sorry.

If we're shelling 30 for Shaw, an equivalent figure for Coleman would be the least we can expect.

He really isn't though.

Coleman's only advantage over Rafa is his fitness.

Will I Amnt · 31-12-2014 6:02pm

Right Turn Clyde wrote: »

Every team in the league has players that we should be concerned about, but that doesn't justify attributing to them a style of play that is not theirs. Stoke City, at this moment in time, are not an overtly defensive team, especially when facing the so-called 'big teams'.

I was just commenting on the "kicking players" part. Stoke have hard and aggressive players and United have a ridiculous amount of injury prone players. It's not a good mix.

phenom · 31-12-2014 6:04pm

Bombleswizzum wrote: »

We have two already. I'd be wanting us to sign a box to box type if we were signing a midfielder.

RB and CB has to be priority though IMO.

Our defence this season has been a make shift of young players and midfielders dropping back to fill in the central role, and wing backs,

Rafael Jones rojo shaw is a good back line when fully fit what we would need is good cover for the positions when there is injuries , I can't see van gaal replacing these.

In all honesty with players returning for injury and our form being decent the last few games i can't see any big signing in January .

Lucas Hood · 31-12-2014 6:05pm

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

What about Coleman.

Don't know much about his club history

He moved to Everton at 20/21.
They've to be trained in England for 3 years before their 21st birthday to be counted as homegrown afaik.

Pro. F · 31-12-2014 6:06pm

RasTa wrote: »

I watched that game to see what he was like and was actually impressed at his passing ability, probably the best on the pitch at moving the ball.

However as a DM it's a big no no, went missing for 2 of Liverpools goals and generally awful at the defensive side. No surprise he was hauled off after 65mins.

He's only recently back from a serious knee injury, that's the reason he was taken off after an hour. It's been the same in each game since his return.

He wasn't at fault for any of the Liverpool goals. He was the only CM properly getting back into a defensive position for a lot of the game, that's why he was having to cover so much ground.

Billy86 · 31-12-2014 6:07pm

beno619 wrote: »

He really isn't though.

Coleman's only advantage over Rafa is his fitness.

His final ball going forward, too. But on the flipside, Rafael has consistently been above him in almost all defensive statistics in recent years - because Coleman simply isn't asked to defend much. People overlook this for some reason, and even with Everton doing very poorly defensively this year still continue to just ignore it. It's odd.

The £30mn for Shaw argument completely ignores Shaw being homegrown as mentioned, but much more obviously that Shaw is a full seven years younger than Coleman. That's a big, big difference in and of itself.

Pro. F · 31-12-2014 6:16pm

Billy86 wrote: »

His final ball going forward, too. But on the flipside, Rafael has consistently been above him in almost all defensive statistics in recent years - because Coleman simply isn't asked to defend much. People overlook this for some reason, and even with Everton doing very poorly defensively this year still continue to just ignore it. It's odd.

The £30mn for Shaw argument completely ignores Shaw being homegrown as mentioned, but much more obviously that Shaw is a full seven years younger than Coleman. That's a big, big difference in and of itself.

Defensive "statistics" are a worthless way of judging defenders. Most good defending means that the player avoids anything that results in a stat being recorded. If you watch Coleman play you can see he's a very good defender, even if he is now playing in a poorly organised team.

Not that I would be advocating spending huge money on any right-back. Just because we overspent on Shaw, doesn't justify doing it again now imo.

Dayum · 31-12-2014 6:19pm

A lot here are being blinded by romanticism regarding Coleman and all because of the simple fact that he's Irish.

I get it.

But in reality neither Coleman nor Rafael are up to scratch.

The Moldy Gowl · 31-12-2014 6:39pm

Dayum wrote: »

A lot here are being blinded by romanticism regarding Coleman and all because of the simple fact that he's Irish.

I get it.

But in reality neither Coleman nor Rafael are up to scratch.

Aside from that.

Rafael when fit and on form is fantastic right back

duffman13 · 31-12-2014 6:43pm

Dayum wrote: »

A lot here are being blinded by romanticism regarding Coleman and all because of the simple fact that he's Irish.

I get it.

But in reality neither Coleman nor Rafael are up to scratch.

Who us up to scratch in your opinion? Both are better options than Valencia. In the league it's Zabeleta, Ivanovic and maybe Clyne ahead of the rest.

But Coleman managed to be and in the PFA team of the year so he must be somewhat up to scratch. As a matter of fact I think a lot of Irish are now talking him down because he is Irish and is now beginning to get some acclaim.

Liam O · 31-12-2014 6:44pm

Dayum wrote: »

A lot here are being blinded by romanticism regarding Coleman and all because of the simple fact that he's Irish.

I get it.

But in reality neither Coleman nor Rafael are up to scratch.

Ha!

Billy86 · 31-12-2014 6:49pm

Pro. F wrote: »

Defensive "statistics" are a worthless way of judging defenders. Most good defending means that the player avoids anything that results in a stat being recorded. If you watch Coleman play you can see he's a very good defender, even if he is now playing in a poorly organised team.

Not that I would be advocating spending huge money on any right-back. Just because we overspent on Shaw, doesn't justify doing it again now imo.

I'm not saying he's a bad defender just not as fantastic as some here seem to make out, I am saying he is not asked to do as much defensively at Everton as Rafael has been with us. His primary role is often as an outlet for them to move the ball forward and quickly, and he is extremely good at it - but a worry there would be how that would translate to opponents sitting deeper against us than they do his current team.

Likewise though, it's not signing him I would have any issue with, it's the price tag that would come with him - if they wanted £25mn (if I recall? We dodged a bullet there!) for Baines who only knows how much they would be looking for, for Coleman who is not only better but younger too.

Pro. F · 31-12-2014 7:03pm

Billy86 wrote: »

I'm not saying he's a bad defender just not as fantastic as some here seem to make out, I am saying he is not asked to do as much defensively at Everton as Rafael has been with us. His primary role is often as an outlet for them to move the ball forward and quickly, and he is extremely good at it - but a worry there would be how that would translate to opponents sitting deeper against us than they do his current team.

Likewise though, it's not signing him I would have any issue with, it's the price tag that would come with him - if they wanted £25mn (if I recall? We dodged a bullet there!) for Baines who only knows how much they would be looking for, for Coleman who is not only better but younger too.

He's an excellent full-back, both defensively and going forward. The only legitimate concern about signing him would be price imo.

Billy86 · 31-12-2014 7:15pm

Pro. F wrote: »

He's an excellent full-back, both defensively and going forward. The only legitimate concern about signing him would be price imo.

Having watched him for both Everton and Ireland, he definitely is excellent going forward but it's hyperbolic to say he is defensively as well. He's good defensively, but not in the league of a younger Ashley Cole or Lahm who were excellent defensively.

Pro. F · 31-12-2014 7:23pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Having watched him for both Everton and Ireland, he definitely is excellent going forward but it's hyperbolic to say he is defensively as well. He's good defensively, but not in the league of a younger Ashley Cole or Lahm who were excellent defensively.

Semantic hair splitting.

Billy86 · 31-12-2014 7:26pm

Pro. F wrote: »

Semantic hair splitting.

Nope, just pointing out that calling Coleman excellent defensively is indeed hyperbolic and/or setting the bar of excellence to low.

Pro. F · 31-12-2014 7:34pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Nope, just pointing out that calling Coleman excellent defensively is indeed hyperbolic and/or setting the bar of excellence to low.

And saying you have to be as good as Cole or Lahm in their prime to be called excellent is setting the bar too high.

RasTa · 31-12-2014 7:35pm

Pro. F wrote: »

He wasn't at fault for any of the Liverpool goals. He was the only CM properly getting back into a defensive position for a lot of the game, that's why he was having to cover so much ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb2V8rh3Els

Scroll to 5.18, although Shelvey is also useless but he losses his man way too easy. I don't think he is a DM

Billy86 · 31-12-2014 7:36pm

Pro. F wrote: »

And saying you have to be as good as Cole or Lahm in their prime to be called excellent is setting the bar too high.

Zabaleta and Ivanovic would set a lower benchmark, and again both are comfortably better defensively than Coleman.

Pro. F · 31-12-2014 7:39pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Zabaleta and Ivanovic would set a lower benchmark, and again both are comfortably better defensively than Coleman.

No they aren't. They just have better managers who organise their teams properly.

hufpc8w3adnk65 · 31-12-2014 7:44pm

Pro. F wrote: »

No they aren't. They just have better managers who organise their teams properly.

So LVG is unorignised??
Right.........

Billy86 · 31-12-2014 7:45pm

Pro. F wrote: »

No they aren't. They just have better managers who organise their teams properly.

Yes they are, and that is why two separate managers have both had Coleman's defensive responsibilities (where he is good but not excellent) limited in comparison to his attacking ones (where he is excellent), and why Ivanovic and Zabaleta have both looked defensively superior under multiple managers.

mewe · 31-12-2014 7:55pm

I'd be delighted if we got Coleman. We need another RB and he's up there for me.

He'd be a more intelligent defender than Raf for me but with the two of them we'd have two very good options for RB.

Pro. F · 31-12-2014 8:04pm

RasTa wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb2V8rh3Els

Scroll to 5.18, although Shelvey is also useless but he losses his man way too easy. I don't think he is a DM

The first problem with that goal was Shelvey pushing up field and then not getting back quick enough, leaving Britton to cover too much space. Then Fernandez didn't tuck in behind Williams when he came out to the ball, if he had he would have been in the area where Lallana received the one-two. Then Shelvey stopped dead instead of chasing Lallana who was running off the back of Britton, although Shelvey probably wouldn't have gotten there, he still should have been trying. Britton didn't do anything wrong on that goal.

SherlockWatson · 31-12-2014 8:05pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Nope, just pointing out that calling Coleman excellent defensively is indeed hyperbolic and/or setting the bar of excellence to low.

Hyperbolic implies it's not meant to be taken seriously, you're looking for over exaggerated.

Pro. F · 31-12-2014 8:08pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Yes they are, and that is why two separate managers have both had Coleman's defensive responsibilities (where he is good but not excellent) limited in comparison to his attacking ones (where he is excellent), and why Ivanovic and Zabaleta have both looked defensively superior under multiple managers.

Coleman had full defensive responsibilities under Moyes. Ivanavic and Zabaleta didn't look defensively superior to Coleman at that time. Martinez's management prevents his players from looking good defensively.

PhlegmyMoses · 31-12-2014 8:09pm

I'm with Pro F here (not on the Britton stuff). Coleman is playing under a manager that has consistently struggled to set up a defence. Martinez' Wigan were fecking awful at the back and Everton are headed that way.

Pro. F · 31-12-2014 8:13pm

MrMac84 wrote: »

So LVG is unorignised??
Right.........

I was talking about Coleman, not any United player. But I wouldn't be too convinced of LVG's defensive organisational abilities just yet myself.

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

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