Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

Giggsy11

Some stat.. No wonder we are defensively very shaky. Continuity is very important to build defensively solid team.

Only one center-back pairing has completed 90 minutes twice this season for Manchester United - McNair & Rojo.

The Moldy Gowl

bangkok wrote: »

59m di maria cant even clear the first man with a corner. shocking. need to get rvp back on corners asap

If you bothered to check, I explained this yesterday.
But sure go ahead and complain. A professional footballer can't kick a ball. Yeah. Ok. My nana could do better and is faster than rvp

kryogen

In fairness your nana has an olympic gold medal in the 100m sprint iirc

The Moldy Gowl

kryogen wrote: »

In fairness your nana has an olympic gold medal in the 100m sprint iirc

Champion of the over 70s for the last 20 years. The coughing and spluttering gets her over the line. Celebrates by cooking me an apple pie

bangkok

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

If you bothered to check, I explained this yesterday.
But sure go ahead and complain. A professional footballer can't kick a ball. Yeah. Ok. My nana could do better and is faster than rvp

didn't see it. Could you copy and paste it back and I will see what you said?

before you show me as well, there is no excusing it either. its a dead ball, he has time to take it, centre backs have got forward, there is no way he should be hitting the first man. Never

The Moldy Gowl

bangkok wrote: »

didn't see it. Could you copy and paste it back and I will see what you said?

before you show me as well, there is no excusing it either. its a dead ball, he has time to take it, centre backs have got forward, there is no way he should be hitting the first man. Never

Naw. It wa after one of larrys meltdowns.

bangkok

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Naw. It wa after one of larrys meltdowns.

but you surely agree di maria has to be taken off corners?

The Moldy Gowl

bangkok wrote: »

but you surely agree di maria has to be taken off corners?

I'm sure there is a reason he is taken them. It's all very easy to have a knee jerk reaction to these kinda things.

I like to put my trust in the people training day in day out with coaches and set pieces are set up for a reason. Blind faith some might call it, but its really not.

Do I start shouting at someone in macdonalds calling them a spoofer because I have no idea what their job actually is, sure, I can make a burger at home, just like I can kick a ball. Once you take the knee jerky stuff and emotion out of it, you can trust the staff know what they are doing.

Larry Wildman

Nuts102 wrote: »

Well the first thing to be positive about yesterday was we didn't get hammered

That's how low we've sunk...we're Manchester United for f..k sake. People are being brainwashed and nowhere is it more evident than in this thread.

Not getting a hiding and Maruoane Fellaini running around fouling people aren't things to get excited about.

We are tolerating mediocrity.

Van Gaal should be sacked and a team should be built around De Gea, Shaw, Blind, Di Maria and Rooney. Everyone else is just mediocrity personified (excluding Falcao who we're yet to really see).

adox

Di Maria has shown that he is excellent with a dead ball. His free kicks have been fantastic in general and his corners for the most part have been fine.

Sure he hit two or three in a row yesterday that didnt clear the first man, and that is disappointing, but in no way should it be a deciding factor on whether he takes them or not.

Too much knee jerking going on and also lazy arguments of "oh so everything is great then is it?" which I dont think anyone has claimed.

The club was at rock bottom at the end of last season. A new proven manager is in charge, has invested heavily in the team. Hell half the starting line up these days are new players so there is of course going to be a bedding in time. The injuries have been horrendous, especially at the back and that just cant be underestimated in the effect it is having.

Despite all that there are positive signs and the style of play is already a million miles better than last year. There is an obvious style that Utd are trying to play and more importantly the players look like they believe in it and are commited to the cause.

I still think it was a mistake not to buy another CB in the summer and perhaps another CM, although Fellaini has really stepped up the last few games.
I predicted we would finish 5th at best this season because of the lack of additions at the back but I have revised that now and think we have a realistic shout for the top four. The league has been very poor so far this season, well at least from the top 4 contenders so Utd will most likely be there or there abouts.

There was never going to be a quick fix after the debacle of last year. Anyone who expected Utd to just hit the ground running again and challenge for top stop was deluded. Patience and perspective are whats needed. No one like to see Utd lose and no one is happy with the points haul so far but at the same time those two factors cant be let cloud people judgement.

Mitch Connor

Larry Wildman wrote: »

That's how low we've sunk...we're Manchester United for f..k sake. People are being brainwashed and nowhere is it more evident than in this thread.

Not getting a hiding and Maruoane Fellaini running around fouling people aren't things to get excited about.

We are tolerating mediocrity.

Van Gaal should be sacked and a team should be built around De Gea, Shaw, Blind, Di Maria and Rooney. Everyone else is just mediocrity personified (excluding Falcao who we're yet to really see).

So who are we going to get in over LVG that will be better able to build a side around those players - without doing anything to change the defensive and midfield issues we have, which imo only new players can solve - cause clearly you feel LVG is the problem and not the defence that is made of glass and ineptness.

Lord TSC

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Van Gaal should be sacked.

Sacked after 12 or so games? Really? THAT's the United way now, is it? Don't accept mediocrity but sack a manager after a dozen games?

The_Kew_Tour

Football fans are spoilts brats.

they expect to run before they can walk.

its fine to have ambiton its another thing to be unrealistic and expect a magic wand to fix things overnight.

if people cant see the improvment of displays compared to last season they were watching a different team.

A stuipid challenge changed everything yesterday.

and its going to new low when Di Maria is being singled out.

Past30Now

bangkok wrote: »

59m di maria cant even clear the first man with a corner. shocking. need to get rvp back on corners asap

I have heard this said about many footballers over the years and it really is nonsense. When Di Maria/ RVP/ Rooney/ Giggs/ Beckham/ Ronaldo/ Irwin/ Blackmore/ anyone else who has taken corners for United in the last thirty years hits the first man, they do so by missing their target by 6 to 12 inches. My 12 year old could take ten corners and miss the first man 9 times but that is of no use as he is just lobbing the ball in to the penalty area, the goalkeeper/centrehalf will always be favourite to clear the ball. Di Maria etc are trying to whip the ball in at speed, so that the forward player coming onto the ball has the advantage.

MagicIRL

I'm bowing out of the thread again for a few weeks. The place is mad. G'luck.

Backstreet Moyes

Larry Wildman wrote: »

That's how low we've sunk...we're Manchester United for f..k sake. People are being brainwashed and nowhere is it more evident than in this thread.

Not getting a hiding and Maruoane Fellaini running around fouling people aren't things to get excited about.

We are tolerating mediocrity.

Van Gaal should be sacked and a team should be built around De Gea, Shaw, Blind, Di Maria and Rooney. Everyone else is just mediocrity personified (excluding Falcao who we're yet to really see).

Why exactly do you include Blind yet dismiss Fellaini.

Fellaini is proven in the league and with Belgium and has performed better than Blind this season.

The Moldy Gowl

Past30Now wrote: »

I have heard this said about many footballers over the years and it really is nonsense. When Di Maria/ RVP/ Rooney/ Giggs/ Beckham/ Ronaldo/ Irwin/ Blackmore/ anyone else who has taken corners for United in the last thirty years hits the first man, they do so by missing their target by 6 to 12 inches. My 12 year old could take ten corners and miss the first man 9 times but that is of no use as he is just lobbing the ball in to the penalty area, the goalkeeper/centrehalf will always be favourite to clear the ball. Di Maria etc are trying to whip the ball in at speed, so that the forward player coming onto the ball has the advantage.

Thank you!!!

Just behind the first defender and in front of the second is where they are aiming. The first defender is obviously going to attack the ball. Realistically he should be winning that ball all the time.

kstand

Second away game of the season where a moment (or two) of idiocy from a defender has cost us the game.

There are positives though - a draw with Chelsea last week and were comfortable enough most of the time up to the sending off. A draw was on the cards yesterday too. Thought Shaw had an excellent game and apart from a few stray passes early on, so did Rooney. We need a performance and result now against Palace, hopefully with Falcao back as well. Thought Carrick looked very assured on the ball at the back, some lovely slick passes out of defence.

paulbok

Leroy42 wrote: »

Fellani, well he was back to his best from last year. Lots of running around, nearly making it and being clumsy to give away frees and what should have been penalties. He also, unforgivably pulled out of a number of tackles. He gave the ball away in the move that lead to Smalling having his brainfart and he pulled out of a tackle which lead directly to the goal. 1.5 decent performaces and then back to his normal standard.

He can't win with you can he?

ArmaniJeanss

bangkok wrote: »

there is no excusing it either. its a dead ball, he has time to take it, centre backs have got forward, there is no way he should be hitting the first man. Never

This is all just wrong.
In order to ping in the perfect corner you have to just barely clear the first defender, and margin of error means you will often fail to clear him.
Takers who always clear the first man are putting in deep, less pacy corners to the back post - these can be good as well but are much more easily defended.

Maximus Alexander

Di Maria's free kicks are definitely better than his corners, but United's corners have been pretty abysmal for a good while now. They miss the mark a lot of the time and when they do go into the right area nobody gets on to them. I'm not convinced it was any better with RVP taking them and he's probably better off in the box given that he's reasonably tall, good with his head and a goalscorer.

ericzeking

I want something more from my relationship with United...I don't just want the shift around the back of the bike shed that is a win at the weekend no matter the cost....I want something deep and meaningful!!!!!!!

I want something I can be invested in....I like LVG, I like his style, his antics in press conferences, the style of play looks promising, his accent is cool too...obviously!

I also liked Moyes though and I wanted him to do well as he had that underdog feeling about him, a guy getting his chance.

Fergie too, despite his success he always created that underdog feeling, we were chasing Liverpools domestic record, we tended to be up against it in Europe and struggled for long enough...that was something you could buy into, and feel strongly about.

We've already lost lots of that now with the latest cash splurge, we're pretty much City or Chelsea playing in Red these days...if we go down the route of sacking managers willy nilly as some would have it then I could see myself going down the route of enthusiastic observer rather than fan.

It's not just about winning and gloating to your mates at work on a Monday is it?

Spazdarn

I like Rafael but he's an accident waiting to happen, Smalling I've never thought was up to it. It may seen knee jerky but I've been saying it long enough, Smalling needs to be sold... he's not good enough regarding of his mindless stupidity yesterday.

We're started to get a run of games that we lose but come away with them with excuses, if we hadn't had those injuries, if we hadn't gotten the red card, if we hadn't....

I'm sick of playing reasonably well and then suffering from this individual errors, January I'd like to see more of the same, go balls out with the spending and bring in multiple defenders in January.

I'd even sell Smalling in this window if it meant making sure he never got near the team again. I'm much more confident when Paddy McNair is playing, and that's saying something..

Giggsy11

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Di Maria's free kicks are definitely better than his corners, but United's corners have been pretty abysmal for a good while now. They miss the mark a lot of the time and when they do go into the right area nobody gets on to them. I'm not convinced it was any better with RVP taking them and he's probably better off in the box given that he's reasonably tall, good with his head and a goalscorer.

When RVP and Rooney took inswinging corners we scored most goals from corner kicks. Evans, Evra scored around 10 goals combined.

thelad95

Out of interest what's the average age on this thread? A lot of people (I won't mention names) talk and react like 12 year olds on here and it's really tiring to be honest. I only post here sporadically but view this thread on a daily basis. I think I'm going to unfollow for a few weeks and hopefully by then either some people will have copped on or the necessary bans will have been handed out.

ericzeking

Spazdarn wrote: »

I like Rafael but he's an accident waiting to happen, Smalling I've never thought was up to it. It may seen knee jerky but I've been saying it long enough, Smalling needs to be sold... he's not good enough regarding of his mindless stupidity yesterday.

We're started to get a run of games that we lose but come away with them with excuses, if we hadn't had those injuries, if we hadn't gotten the red card, if we hadn't....

I'm sick of playing reasonably well and then suffering from this individual errors, January I'd like to see more of the same, go balls out with the spending and bring in multiple defenders in January.

I'd even sell Smalling in this window if it meant making sure he never got near the team again. I'm much more confident when Paddy McNair is playing, and that's saying something..

Why sell a Centre half when we're lucky to have two fit ones for any particular game?

Kirby

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

This is all just wrong.
In order to ping in the perfect corner you have to just barely clear the first defender, and margin of error means you will often fail to clear him.
Takers who always clear the first man are putting in deep, less pacy corners to the back post - these can be good as well but are much more easily defended.

Past30Now wrote: »

My 12 year old could take ten corners and miss the first man 9 times but that is of no use as he is just lobbing the ball in to the penalty area, the goalkeeper/centrehalf will always be favourite to clear the ball. Di Maria etc are trying to whip the ball in at speed, so that the forward player coming onto the ball has the advantage.

Sorry I don't agree. They are poor corners. A corner that requires near perfect execution is a bad option in the first place. You are talking about the perfect corner but a corner doesn't need to be perfect.....just like a finish doesn't need to be perfect. For every Oscar beauty there is a victor moses bundle. Both are goals.

We take the point that he's only missing slightly by hitting the first man......that he's aiming there at pace to be dangerous and if he miss hits it slightly, the first man clears it.

But the bigger point is that if he aims near post and gets it wrong, there is zero chance of a goal. If it's aimed in the middle and he gets it wrong and it drops short or goes long, a United player can still get on the end of it.

It's the equivalent of the Ronaldo/Alex/Roberto Carlos power technique at free kicks. When they get it right, its brilliant but there is so little margin for error. The whipped Beckham style or instep Drogba style might be more likely to be saved, but it's going to be on target a lot more.....which means a higher chance of actually scoring. You have no chance of scoring when it hits row Z.

Yes, the floaty corners that your 12 year old could hit in favours the defender.....but the key is in the word. It favours the defender....meaning an attacker has a chance. There is still a chance that your own player can get on the end of it. There is zero chance of that happening when the first man clears it away.

Di Maria did it three times in a row yesterday and it was shocking.

The Moldy Gowl

thelad95 wrote: »

Out of interest what's the average age on this thread? A lot of people (I won't mention names) talk and react like 12 year olds on here and it's really tiring to be honest. I only post here sporadically but view this thread on a daily basis. I think I'm going to unfollow for a few weeks and hopefully by then either some people will have copped on or the necessary bans will have been handed out.

You know that buzzing from electrical pylons? That's me. Can't put an age on that.

bangkok

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Di Maria's free kicks are definitely better than his corners, but United's corners have been pretty abysmal for a good while now. They miss the mark a lot of the time and when they do go into the right area nobody gets on to them. I'm not convinced it was any better with RVP taking them and he's probably better off in the box given that he's reasonably tall, good with his head and a goalscorer.

yes his free kicks are top quality, best in the league at putting them in the danger zone. Corners are shocking, this thing that he barely has to beat the first man is nonsense. you can beat the first man easily and still put in a dangerous ball. Look at gerrards corner deliveries for Liverpool, all quality

keane2097

Kirby wrote: »

Sorry I don't agree. They are poor corners. A corner that requires near perfect execution is a bad option in the first place.

We take the point that he's only missing slightly by hitting the first man......that he's aiming there at pace to be dangerous and if he miss hits it slightly, the first man clears it.

But the bigger point is that if he aims near post and gets it wrong, there is zero chance of a goal. If it's aimed in the middle and he gets it wrong and it drops short or goes long, a United player can still get on the end of it.

It's the equivalent of the Ronaldo/Alex/Roberto Carlos power technique at free kicks. When they get it right, its brilliant but there is so little margin for error. The whipped Beckham style or instep Drogba style might be more likely to be saved, but it's going to be on target a lot more.....which means a higher chance of actually scoring. You have no chance of scoring when it hits row Z.

Yes, the floaty corners that your 12 year old could hit in favours the defender.....but the key is in the word. It favours the defender....meaning an attacker has a chance. There is still a chance that your own player can get on the end of it. There is zero chance of that happening when the first man clears it away.

Di Maria did it three times in a row yesterday and it was shocking.

This is a fairly poor attempt at statistics.

It's trivially easy to return the argument - since you've based yours on stuff you made up - that the increased chance of scoring from the Di Maria style "just over the head" corners that work more than equals the chance of scoring from the "safe well over the head" style you are advocating.

In fact, I would be willing to make up that you score 100 times as many goals from the first type of corners.

Kirby

Er, sorry? I'm not talking about statistics. I'm talking about football and logic. I haven't made anything up. I'm not comparing driven versus floated as a statistical analysis or used any figures whatsoever. I have no idea what you are talking about.

A floated ball into the box that is easy to perform can lead to a goal. A ball cleared by the first man can not. That is not statistical analysis. It's just a fact.

Giggsy11

I for one am not really worried about this season. Every game we are improving, shame we don't have points to show for that.

We have a midfield that won't **** bricks when playing against big teams. Down to 10 but still we were close to getting a point against City.

Injuries to defensive players is very worrying thing as we can't improve defensively without same 4 players getting run of games. Hopefully this gets sorted or injury prone players are moved to sign better players.

Also one big positive is we can make valid arguments for Fellaini to start in the midfield and we have Herrera on the bench. Our midfield options looks lot better now and even better as Carrick is back.

Hopefully Rooney and Falcao starts the next game.

keane2097

Kirby wrote: »

Er, sorry? I'm not talking about statistics. I'm talking about football and logic. I haven't made anything up. I'm not comparing driven versus floated as a statistical analysis or used any figures whatsoever. I have no idea what you are talking about.

A floated ball into the box that is easy to perform can lead to a goal. A ball cleared by the first man can not. That is not statistical analysis. It's just a fact.

Do you seriously think that's good logic?

Maximus Alexander

Kirby wrote: »

Er, sorry? I'm not talking about statistics. I'm talking about football and logic. I haven't made anything up. I'm not comparing driven versus floated as a statistical analysis or used any figures whatsoever.

A floated ball into the box that is easy to perform can lead to a goal. A ball cleared by the first man can not. That is not statistical analysis. It's just a fact.

And ignoring statistical analysis (which is not what the coaching team will be doing) makes it pointless.

If, for example, they've assessed that 1 in 20 floated balls leads to a goal, but 2 in 10 successful driven balls will, with 50% being cleared by the first man, then statistically the second option is better.

I would expect a club at United's level perform this kind of statistical analysis. If they don't, they should.

Rayne Wooney

Looks like Mata's playing time will be limited

It will be interesting to see if Van Gaal sticks with 433 or goes back to the diamond with two up front

I'd like to see Mata behind Rooney and Falcao at Palace

keane2097

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

And ignoring statistical analysis (which is not what the coaching team will be doing) makes it pointless.

If, for example, they've assessed that 1 in 20 floated balls leads to a goal, but 2 in 10 successful driven balls will, with 50% being cleared by the first man, then statistically the second option is better.

I would expect a club at United's level perform this kind of statistical analysis. If they don't, they should.

This level of explanation surely wasn't required. Kirby obv taking the piss - he has to be.

Maximus Alexander

keane2097 wrote: »

This level of explanation surely wasn't required. Kirby obv taking the piss - he has to be.

Maybe, but I like to go with the benefit of the doubt.

jaykay74

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Van Gaal should be sacked

stupid

Kirby

keane2097 wrote: »

Do you seriously think that's good logic?

Comments like that lead me to believe you don't really have a good enough grasp of logic to discuss this properly.

There is no such thing as "good logic". Something is either logical or it isn't.

Leroy42

paulbok wrote: »

He can't win with you can he?

He can't win? There is no excuse for pulling out of a tackle. None. That is precisely what is is there to do, a midfield enforcer. He is not there for his silky skills, or speed.

I don't mind his clumseness, Peter Crouch was always considered clumsy but scored a good amount of goals. But looking clumsy and giving stupid frees away are two different things.

i really cannot believe that any Man Utd fan thinks that Fellani played well yesterday. He may have done alright most of the time, but he cost us on two clear occassions and should have been pulled up for at least one penalty.

Games are usually decided on a small number of moments (as this game was ultimately by two, the Smalling 'tackle' and Aguerro getting the goal).

It pointless being decent for 89 mins if you lose your man in the 90th and they score.

No doubt the style of football is better than last year, and I have no doubt that this team will get better and am confident of a top 4, but to try to say that yesterday was a good performance is nothing but Red tinted glasses.

keane2097

Kirby wrote: »

Comments like that lead me to believe you don't really have a good enough grasp of logic to discuss this properly.

There is no such thing as "good logic". Something is either logical or it isn't.

Check mate I suppose.

I don't know if you are the type to throw a dig and slink away when a post of yours is shown to be pretty stupid, I suppose we'll have a look now.

Kirby

You've revealed the actual issue at hand here with that comment. "Thrown a dig and slink away".

I'm trying to discuss the best way to take a corner and how I don't believe the option Di Maria went for is the right one...............you are valiantly leaping to the defense of a United player and taking on the evil poster who would dare criticise him.

That there is the problem in threads such as these.

Will I Amnt

I said yesterday that Di Maria reminded me of Nani on an off day, the corners were a big factor in that opinion.
Nani was the same, trying to hit the perfect out swinger with pace, quite often it won't beat the first man and it's frustrating as f*ck but what use is a floated corner when you have Kompany, Yaya, Demichelis and Fernando there to gobble them up? Fellaini was the only one that stood a chance.
It was the logical choice in this instance.

keane2097

Kirby wrote: »

You've revealed the actual issue at hand here with that comment. "Thrown a dig". That there is the problem in threads such as this.

I'm trying to discuss the best way to take a corner and how I don't believe the option Di Maria went for is the right one...............you are valiantly leaping to the defense of a United player and taking on the evil poster who would dare criticise him.

I was talking about your comment that you don't think Im smrt enuf to discuss logic because I said "good logic" instead of taking the time to rework the sentence to describe your faulty logic about corners as faulty logic.

I don't support United, and don't actually know which type of corner would ultimately lead to more goals, but I know a lolbad argument when I see one.

I do suspect soccer teams have people who expend more mental energy on the question than "no chance of goal is worse than some chance of goal" with a sample size of one.

Timmyctc

Jesus lads. Is this debate over two mi**** corners? Little to be at :pac:

ronjo

Can I just ask as an outsider what is the feelings towards the Glaziers now?

I know they took out a lot of cash and put up the prices but in the last year or so they have spent a not so small fortune. Are they getting more popular at all for this?

Will I Amnt

ronjo wrote: »

Can I just ask as an outsider what is the feelings towards the Glaziers now?

I know they took out a lot of cash and put up the prices but in the last year or so they have spent a not so small fortune. Are they getting more popular at all for this?

They'll never be liked, just hated more/less depending on the current situation.

Nalz

Is Smalling (obviously), Jones, Evans, Blackett, Rojo and Rafael all out of the Crystal Palace game?

Atlas_IRL

Timmyctc wrote: »

Jesus lads. Is this debate over two mi**** corners? Little to be at :pac:

His corners have been very poor in most cases. In contrast, I dont believe that strikers should take corners but Rooney's corners were amazing when he was taking them for a while.

ronjo

Will I Amnt wrote: »

They'll never be liked, just hated more/less depending on the current situation.

Are the hated less now the have spent a lot?