Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

kryogen

The half way point is the first decent comparison point really, but even at that its stupid.

Di Matteo had a great win ratio after his first 21 games at Chelsea, over 60%, Avram Grant had a 67% win ratio over his 54 games losing just 5 in that time. Is he a top manager because of that? Klopp is a regular name to pop up on peoples hit lists as United manager, two time German manager of the year, led an unfancied side to a CL final recently, is he now a poor manager due to his Dortmund side being, I think, off the bottom of the table on goal difference alone?

Where we finish at the end of the season will tell you whether it has been a good campaign or not. That is the only points total that makes a blind bit of difference. Anything else is just having a ****

Larry Wildman

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

If we had own against Leicester and gotten a win against west brom, this 'meltdown' and justifying it's not a meltdown would never have happened. We would be probably be giving us a chance of winning the league.

I don't think we will ever see 2 those games again so the people freaking out need to understand that. 2 games at the very start of his job and for 6 other players, combine those 6 with the other regular 5 players and it's a brand new team. No wonder they lost against those 2 teams.

There is so many variables to those 2 games. Himself and moyes should not be judged on their first 10 games. From 10 to 20 we will see what is happening.

Fair play to you for engaging in reasoned debate.

However, I've an issue with your argument - You're suggesting that we judge Van Gaal based on things that haven't happened. The only objective measure is results - And with the biggest spend in the history of the club, we've seen the worst results since 1986.

How was Mourinho able to take over Chelsea the first time, integrate a load of new players and win the league at a canter? Pellegrini did the same.

Will I Amnt

Larry Wildman wrote: »

How was Mourinho able to take over Chelsea the first time, integrate a load of new players and win the league at a canter? Pellegrini did the same.

Why couldn't Mourinho do it last year? van Gaal has done that very same thing at other clubs. Guess what? Things don't always go to plan straight away.

Larry Wildman

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Why couldn't Mourinho do it last year? van Gaal has done that very same thing at other clubs. Guess what? Things don't always go to plan straight away.

Mourinho mounted a credible title challenge last season.

Van Gaal has spent north of £100m and presided over our worst start to a season since 1986.

Whatsisname

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Van Gaal has spent north of £100m and presided over our worst start to a season since 1986.

Larry Wildman wrote: »

And with the biggest spend in the history of the club, we've seen the worst results since 1986.

Larry Wildman wrote: »

This is our worst start to a season since 1986. And that's with just the league to focus on and a relatively easy run of games to kick off.

Say that again?

Will I Amnt

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Mourinho mounted a credible title challenge last season.

Van Gaal has spent north of £100m and presided over our worst start to a season since 1986.

Chelsea were poor last season, it was a poor league tbh. He took over a team that finished 3rd and over the course of a full season finished up 3rd.

adox

I honestly don't think that some people realise the damage that was done last season and the state the club was in at the end of the season, and there has been huge changes again since then.


Calling for Van Gaals head at this early stage is beyond ludicrous and this is coming from someone who was calling for Moyes head at this stage last season.

Bridge93

adox wrote: »

I honestly don't think that some people realise the damage that was done last season and the state the club was in at the end of the season, and there has been huge changes again since then.


Calling for Van Gaals head at this early stage is beyond ludicrous and this is coming from someone who was calling for Moyes head at this stage last season.

Well calling for Moyes' head at this stage last year was equally stupid. Managers deserve more than 10 games.

Headshot

Bridge93 wrote: »

Well calling for Moyes' head at this stage last year was equally stupid. Managers deserve more than 10 games.

Not really.

You dont call for the head of a WC manager that has a pedigree to prove it

adox

Bridge93 wrote: »

Well calling for Moyes' head at this stage last year was equally stupid. Managers deserve more than 10 games.

Well that's where I disagree. Different times, different circumstances. Utd wouldn't have so far to climb back up if Moyes had been removed sooner.

Anyway not trying to rehash the Moyes debate, was just trying to give some context when commenting on the calls for Van Gaals head.

Bridge93

Headshot wrote: »

Not really.

You dont call for the head of a WC manager that has a pedigree to prove it

Yes really, you'd swear Moyes lost his first 10 games. He had a poorish start but not so bad he deserved headhunting in early November, and the majority of the thread at the time agrees with this.

Bridge93

adox wrote: »

Well that's where I disagree. Different times, different circumstances. Utd wouldn't have so far to climb back up if Moyes had been removed sooner.

Anyway not trying to rehash the Moyes debate, was just trying to give some context when commenting on the calls for Van Gaals head.

Sooner maybe, but 10 games is ridiculous especially after all he was following, left with and what Ferguson told the fans.

Headshot

I ****ing despise the Moyes defenders

I cant get my head around how anyone can defend this manager that has destroyed this team

Im done talking about him. Giving me ulcer thinking about the rubbish last season

Bridge93

Headshot wrote: »

I ****ing despise the Moyes defenders

I cant get my head around how anyone can defend this manager that has destroyed this team

Im done talking about him. Giving me ulcer thinking about the rubbish last season

If youre willing to calm down and read the posts you'll see I'm not defending Moyes, I'm defending the idea that managers deserve more than 2 and a half months to prove themselves. Much the same as Van Gaal should be and those calling for his sacking need a looking at.

Rayne Wooney

The damage began long before Moyes tbh

Van Gaal will get the team playing at a more than acceptable standard eventually, it's insane talking about him being sacked after 10 games

Mantis Toboggan

Headshot wrote: »

I ****ing despise the Moyes defenders

I cant get my head around how anyone can defend this manager that has destroyed this team

Im done talking about him. Giving me ulcer thinking about the rubbish last season

Same could be said about the LVG defenders. People need to open their eyes to reality.

No manager should be above criticism, especially if the team is under-performing.

kryogen

Buddy Holly wrote: »

Same could be said about the LVG defenders. People need to open their eyes to reality.

No manager should be above criticism, especially if the team is under-performing.

Criticism, grand, can you clarify your position on the questions that follow please?

You think Van Gaal should be sacked?
You think we are playing worse then last season?
You think there is no improvement weekly in our performances?
You think managers have a magic wand?

Billy86

kryogen wrote: »

You think managers have a magic wand?

Can we get Luca Toni to answer this? :pac:

kryogen

Billy86 wrote: »

Can we get Luca Toni to answer this? :pac:

He can answer after the other lad I suppose, or the simple request can just be ignored. Wouldn't be anything new

Mantis Toboggan

kryogen wrote: »

Criticism, grand, can you clarify your position on the questions that follow please?

You think Van Gaal should be sacked? Sacked - nope. criticised? Absolutely

You think we are playing worse then last season? Given the amount of money spent we should be playing better.

You think there is no improvement weekly in our performances? Not particularly, I think the formation changes from 352 to 41212 and 433 have seen us perform better as a unit

You think managers have a magic wand? Fergie had Seriously, this man is supposed to have a golden Penis, so maybe it's time he dropped the trousers.

Think this pretty much sums up my opinion.

kryogen

You haven't answered whether you think we are playing worse then last season, but thanks.

Now, we agree he should not be sacked, great, he has been criticised for certain decisions. Check.
As I said, you didn't answer the next one, but its pretty obvious to everyone we are certainly not playing worse then last year.
You agree with me that there has been an improvement weekly in our performances. Check
You do not think managers have a magic wand. Check

You don't exactly differ much from the crowd there, from reading your posts I would have thought differently.

aligator_am

adox wrote: »

I honestly don't think that some people realise the damage that was done last season and the state the club was in at the end of the season, and there has been huge changes again since then.


Calling for Van Gaals head at this early stage is beyond ludicrous and this is coming from someone who was calling for Moyes head at this stage last season.

I've not read the full thread but genuine question, who's calling for LVG's head? (I don't doubt you on it, just wondering if it was in here)

I think there's been underlying issues with the squad for the past 2 or 3 years, Moyes inherited that and it was likely too much for him, but I think LVG has taken it by the horns and is dealing with it.

I know he loves to bang on about his philosophy but I think he's taking us in the right direction, it's probable that this season is a write off (I hope I'm wrong about that) but I think he's building for the next season or two.

We'll see what happens in the January transfer window.

Liam O

Headshot wrote: »

I ****ing despise the Moyes defenders

I cant get my head around how anyone can defend this manager that has destroyed this team

Im done talking about him. Giving me ulcer thinking about the rubbish last season

Destroyed a team that remained the exact same except for an extra CM when he left? Right. Edit:forgot about Mata here actually, so add a WC attacking player there too.

He hardly made them forget to play football. The league got significantly better in last year's Summer window and Moyes did the same as LVG and took stock of the players but when it came to crunch time Woodward didn't get the players like he did for LVG for some reason or another. United have half as many points as Chelsea with a quarter of the season gone after spending £100m more than he did in the Summer, who's been the best player over the last 3 games? Moyes only signing.

I think Woodward went looking for a quick fix from the moment he sacked Moyes and that was the wrong approach imo and if Gill had stayed I don't think it would have happened. There is no good cover on the wings or in defense and instead of trying to provide some continuity both the fans and the upper management did exactly what Fergie warned them not to. Moyes was in a far better position to make a judgment on players than LVG but wasn't given a chance with player's rising up in the way they did and the management bowing to it. Sets a good precedent right?

I wonder if United held on to beat Bayern would Moyes have kept his job? Those games showed what the team was capable of producing and instead of giving the manager some backing they rip up the team again and expect it to turn out better. I'm not sold on the current approach at all tbh, and Di Maria and Falcao are players I've only dreamed of having at United in the past. I don't know what it was but something felt really off about ignoring defense while bringing them in.

Mantis Toboggan

kryogen wrote: »

You haven't answered whether you think we are playing worse then last season, but thanks.

Now, we agree he should not be sacked, great, he has been criticised for certain decisions. Check.
As I said, you didn't answer the next one, but its pretty obvious to everyone we are certainly not playing worse then last year.
You agree with me that there has been an improvement weekly in our performances. Check
You do not think managers have a magic wand. Check

You don't exactly differ much from the crowd there, from reading your posts I would have thought differently.

Well supposedly we have much better players than last season (remember the board never backed Moyes in the transfer market) so in that respect we are playing better. I still reckon we signed the wrong players over the summer/spent too much on these players (50k per day for Falcao...) and letting some players leave cheaply (wellbeck) together with poor decisions (new contracts for Valencia and Nani) All in just a very disgruntled United fan and i've been to OT twice already this season to watch drivel.

Lukker-

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Chelsea were poor last season, it was a poor league tbh. He took over a team that finished 3rd and over the course of a full season finished up 3rd.

Wouldn't really say that. Beat the top 4 home and away. If they had a top striker against the smaller teams they'd have walked the league.

ShooterSF

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Mourinho mounted a credible title challenge last season.

Van Gaal has spent north of £100m and presided over our worst start to a season since 1986.

This time last season Mourinho's Chelsea were 2 points worse off than the season before. If anything the team was in regression (using a similar argument of yours earlier re Moyes v LVG)

NIMAN

I'm not a Utd fan, but as a neutral I see LVG being given a lot more time simply due to the fact of who he is.

Plus, they will throw whatever money he asks for at him to buy more players, simply because of who he is.

But if you let me spend what LVG has spent or will spend over the next year or two, I would make Utd a good team again. It won't necessarily mean he's a genius. He's a genius if he turns them around on a limited budget and with tactics, but not by spending hundreds of millions of pounds.

Billy86

Liam O wrote: »

Destroyed a team that remained the exact same except for an extra CM when he left? Right. Edit:forgot about Mata here actually, so add a WC attacking player there too.

Yeah, it's not like we lost the four most experienced leaders on our team or anything, including our captain who even came out and said he would have stayed if he knew Moyes was gone if I recall...

I'm not getting back into the one millionth debate on if Moyes was going to magically turn around the team falling off a cliff from when he came in, but forget beating Bayern... we didn't really even deserve to be there, just got lucky RVP had an amazing game and DDG saved the day. Against Olympiakos.

Blatter

Only 10 games gone. The first three were a bit of a mess, completely different lineups and system (three at the back - which was a disaster) to what we've seen over the last few weeks.

I reckon if we were to play the first three games again over the next three weeks (Swansea (h), Sunderland, Burnley (a)), you would see the team pick up 7-9 points, not the 2 that we actually got.

The side right now, although far from perfect, is much more settled. Performances are getting better and the players/manager are clearly all pulling in the same direction, which is a major difference between now and this time last year under Moyes.

The Moldy Gowl

Buddy Holly wrote: »

Well supposedly we have much better players than last season (remember the board never backed Moyes in the transfer market) so in that respect we are playing better. I still reckon we signed the wrong players over the summer/spent too much on these players (50k per day for Falcao...) and letting some players leave cheaply (wellbeck) together with poor decisions (new contracts for Valencia and Nani) All in just a very disgruntled United fan and i've been to OT twice already this season to watch drivel.

Hahahaha 50 000 a day. Lol.

Pighead

kryogen wrote: »

Meh, its Arsenal. Always confident when we play them.

Indeed. Read the other day that the last 14 games between the sides have seen Man Utd W 10 D3 L1. That's a pretty dominant record against a supposed rival.

The Moldy Gowl

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Fair play to you for engaging in reasoned debate.

However, I've an issue with your argument - You're suggesting that we judge Van Gaal based on things that haven't happened. The only objective measure is results - And with the biggest spend in the history of the club, we've seen the worst results since 1986.

How was Mourinho able to take over Chelsea the first time, integrate a load of new players and win the league at a canter? Pellegrini did the same.

I do enjoy your posts, apart from the naive thinking I don't let them get to me like other people.

But yes. Like it's been said, we can't judge him on 10 games. If you don't know why then just leave and go watch
People play FIFA.

Come back in 10 games time, that would be a fair time frame.

Liam O

Billy86 wrote: »

Yeah, it's not like we lost the four most experienced leaders on our team or anything, including our captain who even came out and said he would have stayed if he knew Moyes was gone if I recall...

I'm not getting back into the one millionth debate on if Moyes was going to magically turn around the team falling off a cliff from when he came in, but forget beating Bayern... we didn't really even deserve to be there, just got lucky RVP had an amazing game and DDG saved the day. Against Olympiakos.

Moyes didn't get rid of Rio and Evra, not much use they were last season in helping to get him sacked. Hardly blame him for Giggs considering he's still there and Vidic was always going to leave in fairness. Olympiakos are no slouches at home and if anything it shoukd be a plus that he got the team through, until they played Madrid United fot closer than anyone to knocking out Bayern over 2 seasons, on another day DDG saves the shot right after Evra's goal or the aforementioned leaders actually lead the team and United go through.

kryogen

Pighead wrote: »

Indeed. Read the other day that the last 14 games between the sides have seen Man Utd W 10 D3 L1. That's a pretty dominant record against a supposed rival.

I did a quick check in case I needed to back my point up with stats earlier, we have a pretty incredible record v Arsenal in recent times in all honesty, considering they have always been one of the traditional big four, and before that the main rival.

Since 03....Away from home, played 12, won 3 drawn 6 lost 3. The last 4 years carry that trends, played 4 won 1 lost 1 drew 2

At home since 03, played 11, won 8 drew 2 lost 1.

A serious record against them, the only game they won in that time at OT was in 06 and last time at Emirates was 2011.

Anyways, combined total the last 23 meetings has seen United win 11 of the games and lose just 4. I fear nothing from Arsenal. Sure they could turn up and do a number on United, they could on anyone on their day. More often then not they don't though, certainly not against United.

The Moldy Gowl

Stats are for chumps. Let's fire everyone abd play the mascots. Bitches love kids

Mantis Toboggan

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Hahahaha 50 000 a day. Lol.

Aye, 350k per week. Savage money.

kryogen

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Stats are for chumps. Let's fire everyone abd play the mascots. Bitches love kids

Ah they have their uses, can support a variety of points of view depending on what way you want to twist them. Us having nothing to fear from Arsenal needs no stat to back it up, this team has just put it up to the two best teams in the country. Arsenal must be respected, but not feared.

Also, I prefer the phrase, stats are for losers, The final score is for winners.

The Moldy Gowl

kryogen wrote: »

Ah they have their uses, can support a variety of points of view depending on what way you want to twist them. Us having nothing to fear from Arsenal needs no stat to back it up, this team has just put it up to the two best teams in the country. Arsenal must be respected, but not feared.

Also, I prefer the phrase, stats are for losers, The final score is for winners.

Stats are great for twisting. I did sociology in college. Grab some numbers, make assumptions.

Larry Wildman

Whatsisname wrote: »

Say that again?

Now you're being disingenuous.

A different point was made each time.

You're deploying a rather cute tactic - Accuse someone of not responding, even when they do. Then ask them different questions which have similar answers and accuse them of repeating themself.

I was dealing with different issues - Moyes, Mourinho etc.

Larry Wildman

ShooterSF wrote: »

This time last season Mourinho's Chelsea were 2 points worse off than the season before. If anything the team was in regression (using a similar argument of yours earlier re Moyes v LVG)

But Van Gaal has spent the GDP of a small country to get worse results...

Larry Wildman

Larry Wildman wrote: »

But Van Gaal has spent the GDP of a small country to get worse results...

that chelsea team had far far more money pumped into it before jose ever got there its not a comparable argument

Leroy42

Right, we seem to be going round in circles here.

Larry, we get it, you are not happy with LVG and the job he has done. You think that given the money he spent and the reputation he has we should now be top of the league and everything back to SAF glory days.

Others appear to be of the view that SAF left a stagnate squad, lacking in quality and that Moyes suffered from that but also appeared not to have the ability to handle the required changes.

Time was proved correct on Moyes, as the performances on the pitch continued to deteriorate and he continued to look and sound like a man out of his depth.

Time will also prove the facts on LVG. At the present time the team is no doubt playing better football, the laughing stock we became under Moyes has gone, if unfortunatley the fear of us still is missing.

We spent huge amounts of money in the summer. But this must be seen against what was essentially no spend the previous summer. Yes we signed Fellani, but effectively that was just a waste of 27m. He is a utility player at best. A panic buy. So LVG was faced with having to rejuvinate a squad that last signed a player in RVP. We needed to get the big signings to stem the tide of us disappearing from the mindset of top players, a la Liverpool. We signed Mata in Jan, but again, that was really just a marque signing, something to try to stem the tide of criticism coming from the stands. Number 10 wasn't the problem.

Pool finished 2nd last year and felt they could then get the players they had missed out on for years as they had CL. But the top players all choose other clubs. Sanchez choose Arsenal. We got ADM and Falcao. That is the point of the big signings. Yes, in terms of the team itself, the money may have been better spent more players of the standard of Shawcross, Milner etc. Decent players. But not marque signings that show the rest of the world where you stand as a club.

We were in grave danger of slipping out of the top teir, we needed to rebrand after the Moyes debacle. LVG was a big part of that, ADM and Falcao also.

I don't think anybody here is happy with how many points we have. Clearly people would prefer if we had won all the games. But it is churlish, and I am the 1st to criticise, to not acknowledge that things are looking far better than last year. We are moving in the right direction, but have some serious problems to deal with in order to get there.

adox

aligator_am wrote: »

I've not read the full thread but genuine question, who's calling for LVG's head? (I don't doubt you on it, just wondering if it was in here)

Larry Wildman has called for him to be sacked on here.

Larry Wildman wrote: »

That's how low we've sunk...we're Manchester United for f..k sake. People are being brainwashed and nowhere is it more evident than in this thread.

Not getting a hiding and Maruoane Fellaini running around fouling people aren't things to get excited about.

We are tolerating mediocrity.

Van Gaal should be sacked and a team should be built around De Gea, Shaw, Blind, Di Maria and Rooney. Everyone else is just mediocrity personified (excluding Falcao who we're yet to really see).

RobertKK

David Moyes likely to be announced as the new Real Sociedad manager.

Moyes was not 100% the fault for last season. Vidic had turned his mind to elsewhere, Rio was leading a revolt against him and Woodward repaid that loyalty by telling him in front of his team mates he would not be staying at the club, RVP was against the manager while injured a lot of the time and it was he who won us the league two years ago for us with vital goals, Rooney injured, Evra playing badly, Rafael injured.

It was the 'it's not Alex Ferguson' we can take liberties by some players. Van Gaal was clever and cleared out a load of players, which made them aware their position was not comfortable, imagine if Moyes had done that, the fans would be crying 'why are you breaking up a title winning team?'

The football under Moyes was uninspiring and subs were too defensive. I think he had the right idea with who he wanted brought in, we had Kroos lined up but seems Kroos and Van Gaal don't mix well.

Moyes is a good manager but was not the right manager for United.
Van Gaal had the experience and authority to manage a club like United, and make tough decisions.
The football is positive, the points total is not good but the signs are this is changing. Played the expected top two and the combined score is United 1- 2 Chelsea/City, this showed things are improving and that is with 10 men for most of one game.

November and December will say a lot for how we are progressing. I believe better times are ahead as the team continues to integrate more and more, we did sign half a new team.

The Moldy Gowl

The money should have been spent on players like shawcross and Milner. Ah here, we aren't Liverpool.

Now that would be accepting mediocrity.

Giggsy11

RobertKK wrote: »

David Moyes likely to be announced as the new Real Sociedad manager.

Moyes was not 100% the fault for last season. Vidic had turned his mind to elsewhere, Rio was leading a revolt against him and Woodward repaid that loyalty by telling him in front of his team mates he would not be staying at the club, RVP was against the manager while injured a lot of the time and it was he who won us the league two years ago for us with vital goals, Rooney injured, Evra playing badly, Rafael injured.

It was the 'it's not Alex Ferguson' we can take liberties by some players. Van Gaal was clever and cleared out a load of players, which made them aware their position was not comfortable, imagine if Moyes had done that, the fans would be crying 'why are you breaking up a title winning team?'

The football under Moyes was uninspiring and subs were too defensive. I think he had the right idea with who he wanted brought in, we had Kroos lined up but seems Kroos and Van Gaal don't mix well.

Moyes is a good manager but was not the right manager for United.
Van Gaal had the experience and authority to manage a club like United, and make tough decisions.
The football is positive, the points total is not good but the signs are this is changing. Played the expected top two and the combined score is United 1- 2 Chelsea/City, this showed things are improving and that is with 10 men for most of one game.

November and December will say a lot for how we are progressing. I believe better times are ahead as the team continues to integrate more and more, we did sign half a new team.

It's all Moyes fault that players didn't buy his working methods.

If Van Gaal tried to sell any of the players last season questions would have been asked, since he is doing this season after a disastrous season people can see the players are past it.

kryogen

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

The money should have been spent on players like shawcross and Milner. Ah here, we aren't Liverpool.

Now that would be accepting mediocrity.

I reckon Lee Cattermole could go a long way to solving all our problems, yes, all of them.

Giggsy11

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

The money should have been spent on players like shawcross and Milner. Ah here, we aren't Liverpool.

Now that would be accepting mediocrity.

Milner would have been very good addition also Shawcross would have made our defense better than it is.

Also we have first refusal for Shawcross, whatever that means.

TheDoc

I understand peoples disappointment but I wouldn't be overly critical of LVG.

The defensive injuries and individual errors have been absolutely slaughtering so far this season. I can see noticable improvements week on week with what he is doing. Don't forget that normally we would have midweek CL to be getting players playing more, and new players integrating. We don't have that this year.

It's been rough for him to settle on a first 11, although I think he has a fair idea, injuries and suspensions arn't helping that.

I can't even remember my pre-season thoughts, feels like a lifetime ago. But at this point I'd be happily content with 4th, and then go into next season looking to mount a challenge.

We definitely need to address that CB situation. I'd happily shift Smalling out and and bring a high profile CB in.

TheDoc

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

The money should have been spent on players like shawcross and Milner. Ah here, we aren't Liverpool.

Now that would be accepting mediocrity.

I'm a big fan of Milner, he's shockingly unappreciated and is a really, really good player. He has been one of City's best performers this season. His expulsion to the wings is to England and Citys own detriment.