Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

The Moldy Gowl

I clicked into the sky sports app and ended up on the results.

First 7 games, we won 1.

Then beat west ham, Everton, then drew with west brom. Then Chelsea and man city. We played well at times in all those games, getting consistently better.
I

I'm confident this trend can continue. There is the simple proof that yes there is progress being mad. Albeit a small sample size.

Larry Wildman

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

I clicked into the sky sports app and ended up on the results.

First 7 games, we won 1.

Then beat west ham, Everton, then drew with west brom. Then Chelsea and man city. We played well at times in all those games, getting consistently better.
I

I'm confident this trend can continue. There is the simple proof that yes there is progress being mad. Albeit a small sample size.

But that's 7 points from a possible 15 which is 53 points over a season (i.e. awful)?

DM_7

Does anyone know if United game is on Premier League live/today fm on saturday?

223vmax

Larry Wildman wrote: »

But that's 7 points from a possible 15 which is 53 points over a season (i.e. awful)?

Now your view is purely hypothetical.

ericzeking

223vmax wrote: »

You really have no idea. Go and support City.

I think it's a bit incredulous for any United fan to say something like this after the vast majority turned on last years manager after less than 10 months. Now maybe you were in the minority who didn't and I apologise if you were.

In other news, its being reported on eurosport that rojo could be out for 3 months...dunno if that was covered here.

I reckon we'll see quite a bit of Carrick at CB, I wouldn't be surprised if LVG sees that as a semi permanent position for him judging by the way he has the defence playing.

Antibac

DM_7 wrote: »

Does anyone know if United game is on Premier League live/today fm on saturday?

Yea it is. Liverpool Chelsea on before it

DM_7

Antibac wrote: »

Yea it is. Liverpool Chelsea on before it

Thank you

I can now make sure I at least hear the game

Nalz

Larry Wildman wrote: »

But that's 7 points from a possible 15 which is 53 points over a season (i.e. awful)?

If you're a mathematician that is getting closer to the formula but still not getting the conclusion\result means not continuous failure but in fact strong progression

Mars Bar

For the amount of appearances Hernandez is making at Real, he might as well have stayed with us.

223vmax

Yes I would have given Moyes 18 months in the job. I'd of possibly anticipated 1 year without CL but not 2. So if by this Xmas no improvement show the door. Man U manager is massive boots to fill, don't under estimate the task. Being the biggest club in the world has its drawbacks

I said that here a while ago. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=89203500

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

Whatever about poor organisation and not enough midfeild cover but that wasn't the part of your post I bolded. You said your against giving LVG money to buy defenders if the poor form conitunes. Thats just plain wrong and silly.

You shouldn't ignore parts of my argument just because you chose not to bold them. The poor organisation of the midfield and back-line show that there are issues beyond injuries and a supposed lack of quality.

Your Airbag wrote: »

Yes there should have been a CB and RB bought but as you said earlier about the MF if the preformances were good its not an issue. LVG isn't a miracle worker, he can't forsee things not working. To say he shouldnt spend to correct things is plain wrong.

Your "youv'e made you bed now lie in it" attitude would have us continue the defensive horror show and possibly cost us foruth again. That would be setting out to purposely harm the team and club.

Thank god everyone else is logical enough to do the exact opposite because its plain and simple we need CB's.

I mentioned the oppositon fans and pundits to point how whenever UTD are talked about and analysed our defense its mentioned and how top heavy we are in atttack. You say you don't care what they think, well you should. Everyone is talking about it becuase its glaringly obvious its our major problem and has become priority no.1 for us to fix in January.

To say you don't want to give LVG the chance to fix this in January, the chance to correct his mistake of not buying CBs in the summer, to continue as we are is completely non-sensical. Thankfully nobody at the club would even entertain the idea of doing something so stupid and wreckless.

We could get some good defenders with EPL experiece without spending a forutune. We should and will. Your idea about doing otherwise is simply wrong no matter how you look at it.

The manager didn't need to be a miracle worker to foresee that we would need more than one right-back at the club (I'm not pushed about him only buying one CB, it was reasonable to stick with what he had for a while). Even with the defensive injuries we have, the manager wouldn't need to be a miracle worker to get the team better organised on the pitch. The performances that LVG has been producing with this team, with injuries taken into account as mitigation, are not acceptable.

Buying new centre-backs would make things better. Better management (strategy, transfers in other positions during the summer, choice of formation etc) and coaching (team shape when defending) would also make things better. If LVG can't up his game between now and January on the coaching front then he shouldn't be trusted to do better than last summer on the transfers and strategy front.

Soldie

Funny the guff United supporters got from certain Liverpool fans about 'celebrating' our home draw against Chelsea. And now we have the same fans fawning over a loss against Real Madrid. Go figure.

ElChe32

#MakeUsFaff #WeFaffAgain

J. Marston

Soldie wrote: »

Funny the guff United supporters got from certain Liverpool fans about 'celebrating' our home draw against Chelsea. And now we have the same fans fawning faffing over a loss against Real Madrid. Go figure.

Faffed....sorry, fixed.

Al Capwned

From a van Gaal biography.
Sound familiar??

Talk of sacking him is just being controversial for the sake of it imo.....

kryogen

The Faffening Part Deux

Will I Amnt

Some were laughing at us for being happy with the performance in a 1-0 loss only the other day.

Mantis Toboggan

Al Capwned wrote: »

From a van Gaal biography.
Sound familiar??

Talk of sacking him is just being controversial for the sake of it imo.....

Didn't he win the league that year?

I'm sure if he can repeat the league victory this season then we'll all be happy!!

Liam McPoyle

Soldie wrote: »

Funny the guff United supporters got from certain Liverpool fans about 'celebrating' our home draw against Chelsea. And now we have the same fans fawning over a loss against Real Madrid. Go figure.

Ya but we spent more in the summer, innit bruv.

The Moldy Gowl

Larry Wildman wrote: »

But that's 7 points from a possible 15 which is 53 points over a season (i.e. awful)?

Look at it with open eyes. Can you not see the start of an improving trend?

The.start.

It's not subjective. That's objective

Hank Scorpio

Not worried here, performances have been steadily improving. When Moyes was in charge it was the 4 "easy" games either in December or after xmas that the performances just got steadily worse. When that happened everyone knew he wasn't up to it and things wouldn't improve. All people wanted last season was signs of improvement but things just got progressively worse. No doubt in my mind we`ll finish top 4 this season

Mars Bar

Mars Bar wrote: »

For the amount of appearances Hernandez is making at Real, he might as well have stayed with us.

He always was going to be a bench warmer at Madrid. Only possible reason is a chance to get a sub appearance in the CL.

kryogen

Maybe he just felt he needed a change of scenery, get a bit of sun on his face

The Moldy Gowl

He is just bringing ''Christy'' home with him

Will I Amnt

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Some were laughing at us for being happy with the performance in a 1-0 loss only the other day.

Well they shouldn't have been. The performances are what's keeping me upbeat about the current situation.
We are clearly showing gradual signs of improvement. And the football we are playing is much easier watch. Things were always going to get worse before they got better. If smalling wasn't sent off we could have been talking about another positive result.
Then in comparison to last year it was so frustrating watching every game we played.

Larry Wildman

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

He is just bringing ''Christy'' home with him

Christy just sounds weird...funny but weird

PhlegmyMoses

Of course Van Gaal should be given the money to buy in his kind of defenders. A rebuild doesn't end during one window. You don't get everything you want in 2 months.

The defence is definitely disorganised at the moment. But we haven't had any sort of continuity, have a brand new manager trying different systems and the personnel is probably not what is required, I'm sure we all can admit.

If you are willing to appoint a manager, you have to be willing to back his vision. Especially if you spend a fortune backing him to buy improvements for midfield and attack.

plasteritup

Lads what time do coaches leave Manchester on Sunday mornings for hollyhead ferry do ye know?

PhlegmyMoses

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Of course Van Gaal should be given the money to buy in his kind of defenders. A rebuild doesn't end during one window. You don't get everything you want in 2 months.

The defence is definitely disorganised at the moment. But we haven't had any sort of continuity, have a brand new manager trying different systems and the personnel is probably not what is required, I'm sure we all can admit.

If you are willing to appoint a manager, you have to be willing to back his vision. Especially if you spend a fortune backing him to buy improvements for midfield and attack.

Add to that the unreal bad luck with defensive injuries.

ericzeking

"Christy" angled to leave us for a number of years and used us in numerous contract negotiations, he was a great player for us and all and I think he showed a lot of class when he came back last year but I think that the adulation directed towards him, as a player for a rival club is cringe worthy at times.

Then you have Rooney who is vilified by many supporters for using the available tools to get the best possible deal for himself yet he still plays and gives us 100% for us.

Mind boggling stuff.

glued

Blatter wrote: »

I wonder if he will still want to bring in Vidal/Strootman with Fellaini coming good. I get the feeling he will always play either one of Carrick/Blind in the holding role (although could be wrong on that). We are sorted at #10 with Rooney and Mata being first and second choice and Felliani/Herrera are good options for the last spot.

Would he play Strootman or Vidal instead of Carrick/Blind? Wouldn't they be a bit wasted in that holding role seeing as they do a lot of their good work in the final third?

Did LVG use Strootman as the deepest CM for Holland or did he always play him in a box to box role with de Jong protecting?

Strootman had multiple roles in that Dutch side. He was always the most versatile and he could be as defensive as attacking and as box-to-box as refined. As you can imagine he over the course of a qualifying campaign he had many different roles due to injuries, suspensions and tactics. Typically he plays in front of the holding or defensive player but behind the most attacking of the trio in the middle.

Backstreet Moyes

plasteritup wrote: »

Lads what time do coaches leave Manchester on Sunday mornings for hollyhead ferry do ye know?

Left at 8 last week when i went to the Chelsea game got their at half 11.

kryogen

ericzeking wrote: »

"Christy" angled to leave us for a number of years and used us in numerous contract negotiations, he was a great player for us and all and I think he showed a lot of class when he came back last year but I think that the adulation directed towards him, as a player for a rival club is cringe worthy at times.

Then you have Rooney who is vilified by many supporters for using the available tools to get the best possible deal for himself yet he still plays and gives us 100% for us.

Mind boggling stuff.

Plenty of the Ronaldo stuff is tongue in cheek, but honestly if you can't understand the soft spot a lot of people have for a player who came to United as a spotty 17 year old and grew to be the best player in the world in his time at the club, who will now certainly go down as one of the best of all time, not only that but will legitimately be in the discussion for the GOAT....well I just don't understand that really.

Ronaldo has signed one contract extension in his time at Madrid, he didn't use us in numerous contract negotiations, and as you say, he has shown nothing but love and class for the club, the clubs greatest manager, and the fans since he left. He is certainly worthy of affection from the support.

There is also a difference in the conduct of both players in relation to transfers/transfer requests/reasons etc but I do not want to get into all that, no point.

Ronaldo will always be remembered fondly by the supporters, there is nothing wrong with that at all.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

You shouldn't ignore parts of my argument just because you chose not to bold them. The poor organisation of the midfield and back-line show that there are issues beyond injuries and a supposed lack of quality.



The manager didn't need to be a miracle worker to foresee that we would need more than one right-back at the club (I'm not pushed about him only buying one CB, it was reasonable to stick with what he had for a while). Even with the defensive injuries we have, the manager wouldn't need to be a miracle worker to get the team better organised on the pitch. The performances that LVG has been producing with this team, with injuries taken into account as mitigation, are not acceptable.

Buying new centre-backs would make things better. Better management (strategy, transfers in other positions during the summer, choice of formation etc) and coaching (team shape when defending) would also make things better. If LVG can't up his game between now and January on the coaching front then he shouldn't be trusted to do better than last summer on the transfers and strategy front.

I should when its an attempt to move the goal posts, as your fond of calling others out on, away from a bizzare point. For the record I read all of your post and subsequent posts.

I had little problem with your points on MF etc as we all know we need new defenders and there is still work to do in MF.

As I said before it was the one, bizzare and non senisical, point of not wanting to give LVG money to buy CBs in January given our defensive crisis that I pointed out. I find it hard to believe a UTD fan would want us not to buy in January, not to give LVG money to correct our weak points and his errors, not unless that fan had a spitefull approach to UTD and wanted us to be weak and play badly.


There is nothing about that point that makes sense, or is even romotely close to being a good idea or logical.

Its a ridicuoulsy bad opion to hold.

You avoided the question earlier about what your plan would be instead of giving LVG money in January. So I'll ask again. What do we do? not give LVG the cash and watch the goals continue to leak, costing us points and league positions and just sit back and watch our defense fall further apart, purposely hampering him so we can sack him at the end of the season? Or is it to sack LVG and get who exactly in in January, giving LVG half a season at the helm?

kryogen

Oh, to whoever was telling me Arsenal are looking very impressive, did you watch the game tonight? Arsenal will be Arsenal

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

I should when its an attempt to move the goal posts, as your fond of calling others out on, away from a bizzare point. For the record I read all of your post and subsequent posts.

I had little problem with your points on MF etc as we all know we need new defenders and there is still work to do in MF.

As I said before it was the one, bizzare and non senisical, point of not wanting to give LVG money to buy CBs in January given our defensive crisis that I pointed out. I find it hard to believe a UTD fan would want us not to buy in January, not to give LVG money to correct our weak points and his errors, not unless that fan had a spitefull approach to UTD and wanted us to be weak and play badly.


There is nothing about that point that makes sense, or is even romotely close to being a good idea or logical.

Its a ridicuoulsy bad opion to hold.

You avoided the question earlier about what your plan would be instead of giving LVG money in January. So I'll ask again. What do we do? not give LVG the cash and watch the goals continue to leak, costing us points and league positions and just sit back and watch our defense fall further apart, purposely hampering him so we can sack him at the end of the season? Or is it to sack LVG and get who exactly in in January, giving LVG half a season at the helm?

Lol, talking about poor defensive organisation in the back-line and midfield and the poor transfer work is not moving the goal posts in an argument about LVG's share of the blame for defensive problems in the team. Those points are fundamental to the argument I am making and I brought them up in my original post.

I can understand why you would think my argument is bizarre and nonsensical when you insist on ignoring the details of what I am saying. But then you shouldn't be doing that.

I didn't ignore your question about what my plan would be. It was already clearly outlined in my first post on the topic. As to who we would hire if it came to sacking LVG at or near the end of the season, I don't have any particular idea at the moment. If a suitable candidate really couldn't be found then we could choose to keep him on at that stage.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

Lol, talking about poor defensive organisation in the back-line and midfield and the poor transfer work is not moving the goal posts in an argument about LVG's share of the blame for defensive problems in the team. Those points are fundamental to the argument I am making and I brought them up in my original post.

I can understand why you would think my argument is bizarre and nonsensical when you insist on ignoring the details of what I am saying. But then you shouldn't be doing that.

I didn't ignore your question about what my plan would be. It was already clearly outlined in my first post on the topic. As to who we would hire if it came to sacking LVG at or near the end of the season, I don't have any particular idea at the moment. If a suitable candidate really couldn't be found then we could choose to keep him on at that stage.

Thats not what the argument is about, thats what you now want it to be about.

Your point was not wanting to give LVG money in January to buy defenders. Thats what its about not matter how you try to change it and that point/idea or whatever is bizzare and completely wrong on every level.

Nothing about that idea would make sense for our season or the club as a whole.

Your Airbag

Di Maria features heavy in this video of skills from the world cup. He has amazingly quick feet and takes a lot of touches in a few seconds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Sx8Bbd50g8

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

Thats not what the argument is about, thats what you now want it to be about.

Your point was not wanting to give LVG money in January to buy defenders. Thats what its about not matter how you try to change it and that point/idea or whatever is bizzare and completely wrong on every level.

Nothing about that idea would make sense for our season or the club as a whole.

Here's the relevant bit from my first post on the topic again:

Pro. F wrote: »

It was still a strong squad that LVG inherited and he was given buckets of money to spend. His indecision on formation, poor transfer work and poor organisation of the defence are all on him. The defensive injuries give him a bit of an excuse, but not enough. If LVG doesn't make huge strides with the team before January then I would be against giving him any more money to spend in that window; then look at sacking him if he still hasn't got it going towards the end of the season. Let him prove that he can get this group playing to their ability, never mind his CV at this stage. Only then will he deserve to keep the job and spend the budget.

I've bolded the relevant parts of my argument that you are ignoring. As you can see, from the start I made explicit reference to how he shares in the blame for the current defensive issues.

There is no shifting of the goal posts, my argument is simply more nuanced then you are willing to deal with.

plasteritup

Nuts102 wrote: »

Left at 8 last week when i went to the Chelsea game got their at half 11.

Cheers man,going ferry route this weekend.

Liam O

kryogen wrote: »

Oh, to whoever was telling me Arsenal are looking very impressive, did you watch the game tonight? Arsenal will be Arsenal

Doesn't mean they are going to repeat that in a week and a half, they're in as much transition as United but coping with it better. Walcott is someone I'm scared shítless of, hopefully he won't be fit enough to start.

As far as my complaints about LVG, we are where we are now with him and the future will get better. I'd have preferred Moyes to stay on but LVG is a world class coach who will hopefully make some big improvements to the structure of the club while here. Hopefully he signs a few younger players in the next transfer windows but I'd worry about how much is going to be stumped up if the CL isn't made. It's not a given that Southampton will fall off and with Sanchez Arsenal can win any game, heck even Spurs are a potential threat until totally proven otherwise. The players stepped up against the 2 big teams but now they have to produce a consistent run of victories with a makeshift defense. Easier said than done with Arsenal the game after next.

I just hope we're not back here this time next year with a different manager again if LVG finishes outside the top 4.

Billy86

kryogen wrote: »

Oh, to whoever was telling me Arsenal are looking very impressive, did you watch the game tonight? Arsenal will be Arsenal

B*awards cost me on a 6/1 treble (Dortmund, Atlético, them all -1)... hmph.



As for defensive players in January I definitely am in favour... BUT it can be an infamously difficult time to pick up players in at times, so if it winds up a case of buying defenders for the sake of buying them (like Shawcoss would be, and like some believe Rojo was) I really would rather not. Smalling needs to be gone at this stage and McNair really could do with 12-18 months on loan (hopefully his appearances help him get interest from a newly promoted or bottom half club in January or next summer). Hopefully Woodward is at work getting things quietly ready like Gill was doing in winter 2005,re. Evra/Vidic so we can just pick them up early on without hassle, but if he cannot do so then I would rather wait to get the right players rather than just getting any players for the sake of saying we signed someone.

Mitch Connor

Billy86 wrote: »

B*awards cost me on a 6/1 treble (Dortmund, Atlético, them all -1)... hmph.



As for defensive players in January I definitely am in favour... BUT it can be an infamously difficult time to pick up players in at times, so if it winds up a case of buying defenders for the sake of buying them (like Shawcoss would be, and like some believe Rojo was) I really would rather not. Smalling needs to be gone at this stage and McNair really could do with 12-18 months on loan (hopefully his appearances help him get interest from a newly promoted or bottom half club in January or next summer). Hopefully Woodward is at work getting things quietly ready like Gill was doing in winter 2005,re. Evra/Vidic so we can just pick them up early on without hassle, but if he cannot do so then I would rather wait to get the right players rather than just getting any players for the sake of saying we signed someone.

For me, the big problem is the alck of top class, and available centre backs. who the feck is there?

Hummels is clearly a target for United but i would see no hope of signing him in January. Who else is there? The fact United and Barcelona were fighting over Vermaelen in the summer speaks volumes imo.

Obviously there are still some very good centre backs around, but players like Verane (SP) and Silva aren't going to be sold by the clubs willingly so they aren't viable targets imo. There are increasing rumours of a transfer chase between United and some other clubs for Pique. Would certainly cover the 'ball playing' part of LVGs cb attribute desires, but i've never been convinced about his actual defensive game, I don't think it is as good as the hype would have us believe - and has been masked somewhat by the fact Spain and Barcelona generally have had the ball for 80 of the 90 minutes in most the games he has played up until fairly recently.

Despite spurning him in the summer, and seemingly every window since time began I can see us being linked with Garay again, as we have been in the last week or so

Shawcross and Vlaar will be mentioned a lot and while i think both would be good squad additions I would be very annoyed if either were considered the anwer to our issues. Sure, they would help the situation and Vlaar would at least bring some leadership to the backline but I don't think either are or will be top class.

Billy86

To be fair, DDG in goals with Rooney, RVP, Hernandez, Mata, Kagawa and Welbeck in the attacking spots is a strong unit to inherit.

In defence and midfield, Rafael, Smalling, Buttner, Evra, Fletcher, Anderson, Fellaini, Cleverley, Young, Valencia, Januzaj and Nani, are not. Not to say every player there is awful, but outside of Rafael and an in form Nani, there's really not a tonne of quality in there. Evra added leadership but was comfortably past his best and didn't seem to want to rotate with Shaw during the year.

Jones, Evans and Carrick are positive additions to that bunch, but all deserve to have an asterisk beside them from all the time they have missed.

Billy86

Mitch Connor wrote: »

For me, the big problem is the alck of top class, and available centre backs. who the feck is there?

<snip>

Personally I think Shawcoss would not fit in at all at a top club, hard to put my finger on why exactly but I just think it's a lack of nuance and rounded news to his game. Vlaar I wouldn't be totally opposed to as a stop gap as he and LVG are familiar so he could slot in quickly and LVG got more out of him than anyone else has. But I wouldn't want us to go over 6mn or so, and I figure Villa might want more than that since they were making so much noise over extortionate fees in the summer with how important they viewed him.

Agree completely in Pique, if we got the 352 to work he might have been interesting to look at as the central CB or sweeper for a bargain type price but I'm not a big fan of his actual defending either. And Varane, etc are off limits.

Outside of Hummels there are still a good few options I like. I'm on the bus to the airport at the minute so they're not all springing to mind, but Subotic I feel could be a great Vidic type replacement, Howedes could also be a very good signing and gives plenty of leadership. PSG are not exactly a selling club but a cheeky bid for Marquinhos might not be a bad call since he is now behind Silva and Luiz (but we would need to act before they find out how terrible Luiz is!) and if LVG gets rid of one of Jones/Evans along with Smalling (who I am now just assuming is gone already) I wouldn't be totally opposed to getting two younger guys 'on the cusp' like Inigo Martinez and De Vrij (who I always rated far, far higher than Martins Indi who I personally just don't think is very good). But one of the first three would be right up the top of my list. Diego Godin would also be good and would fit the Premiership very well but turns 29 on Feb and I reckon would have a fair bit of adjusting to do - not a good mix with a likely very high price tag.

In a Football Manager universe I would just throw everything we can at Dortmund for both Hummels and Subsonic though, obviously. Both turn 26 in November so have a good 7 years of their best left, have played together brilliantly for years, and are e pertence at the very highest levels for quite some time. I would happily pay up to 70mn or even a little more for that duo... but it's still completely unrealistic for Dortmund to sell us both of them, sadly.

Will I Amnt

The state of the defence
I was admiring Coloccini there the weekend... He would walk into that back line at this moment in time.

Nunu

Bring back John O'Shea...I'm serious.

Mr_Red

Nunu wrote: »

Bring back John O'Shea...I'm serious.

He Wont come back

Hes earning a Legend Status at Sunderland

kryogen

Varane is one of the players we were genuinely in for and missed out on over the last few years, and one that still annoys me! Who knows, he may not have made the same progress if he had come to United, but he is already so good so young

Maximus Alexander

That Sergio Ramos lad wouldn't be a bad shout at right back now that Madrid and United are trading players. Could loan them Smalling in return.