Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

Billy86

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

That Sergio Ramos lad wouldn't be a bad shout at right back now that Madrid and United are trading players. Could loan them Smalling in return.

Defensively speaking, it wouldn't be much of an upgrade.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

Here's the relevant bit from my first post on the topic again:


I've bolded the relevant parts of my argument that you are ignoring. As you can see, from the start I made explicit reference to how he shares in the blame for the current defensive issues.

There is no shifting of the goal posts, my argument is simply more nuanced then you are willing to deal with.

There was no need to re-bold those points. I read them the first time around and had little problem with them. As I said numerous times now I had no problem with those points.

Your point of not wanting to give LVG cash to buy CBs in January on the other hand is a terrible and non-sensical one and it stands on its own merits as a point, a very bad one.

Not wanting yo give LVG cash in January is aside from form and team style and is placing financial restrictions on the manager and would damage our season and team. Its a rubbish idea.

I have an issue with that and nothing else. You trying to bring other points from your posts into it is understandable. I'd be trying to move the goal posts to after saying something so silly.

Will I Amnt

Billy86 wrote: »

Defensively speaking, it wouldn't be much of an upgrade.

Ramos is so underrated. He can be rash, cynical and fairly dirty at times but the man has pretty much everything, his tackling is a thing of beauty.

Maximus Alexander

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Ramos is so underrated. He can be rash, cynical and fairly dirty at times but the man has pretty much everything, his tackling is a thing of beauty.

Agree - he makes tackling look so hilariously easy that it almost makes it look like I could do it.

Your Airbag

We scouted 28yr old Argentine midfielder Enzo Perez when he played for Benfica the other night.

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/man-united-sent-a-scout-to-benfica-v-monaco-to-watch-e30m-enzo-perez-a-bola/

The lads were at a unicef bash last night. Time for the WAG and fashion critics to unload

bangkok

ericzeking wrote: »

"Christy" angled to leave us for a number of years and used us in numerous contract negotiations, he was a great player for us and all and I think he showed a lot of class when he came back last year but I think that the adulation directed towards him, as a player for a rival club is cringe worthy at times.

Then you have Rooney who is vilified by many supporters for using the available tools to get the best possible deal for himself yet he still plays and gives us 100% for us.

Mind boggling stuff.

You forgot to add that Rooney also wanted to join Man City..:rolleyes:

RasTa

Rachel looking the best as always

ericzeking

bangkok wrote: »

You forgot to add that Rooney also wanted to join Man City..:rolleyes:

Would you go way outta that...

Where did he ever say he specifically wanted to join City?

He wanted a pay rise, so he threatened to leave to get what he felt he was worth in the market. City were the big dogs pay wise at the time so the media were drawing conclusions. Even if it were true, so what? He's still actually at the club and he gives 100%.

People do this type of thing in all walks of life.

The other lad wanted to go (nothing against that) and went yet he is still probably more revered than Rooney, that is the point I was making.

FWIW, I do actually like Ronaldo.

bangkok

ericzeking wrote: »

Would you go way outta that...

Where did he ever say he specifically wanted to join City?

He wanted a pay rise, so he threatened to leave to get what he felt he was worth in the market. City were the big dogs pay wise at the time so the media were drawing conclusions. Even if it were true, so what? He's still actually at the club and he gives 100%.

People do this type of thing in all walks of life.

The other lad wanted to go (nothing against that) and went yet he is still probably more revered than Rooney, that is the point I was making.

FWIW, I do actually like Ronaldo.

do you think he was going to come out and say specifically he wanted to join city?! every man and his dog in Manchester knew his agent had talks with city and that was the move he was pushing for. Coleens sister was very sick at the time and has since passed away and that was the reason behind not leaving Manchester.


Fair enough Ronaldo left, but he went to Madrid and it was his dream to play there as it would be for most players from south America/Portugal/spain.

Rooney questioned the club saying they "cannot match his ambitions" and I think that's why there are still and will always be sour grapes towards rooney. He didn't exactly handle himself well off the pitch either, coming back over weight, smoking and grannygate!!

The_Kew_Tour

Paul Scholes >Liverpool fans.

Your Airbag

bangkok wrote: »

You forgot to add that Rooney also wanted to join Man City..:rolleyes:

The exact opposite in fact

"Everyone is saying that I was definitely going to Manchester City," said Rooney.
"Believe me, if I had gone it wouldn't have been in England."

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/wayne-rooney-says-he-was-never-going-to-join-manchester-city-6540553.html

The Moldy Gowl

Smallish should be grounded for a week with no phone or internet or tv.
He should be forced to read this thread printed on comic sans for the last year.

The Moldy Gowl

Your Airbag wrote: »

The exact opposite in fact



http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/wayne-rooney-says-he-was-never-going-to-join-manchester-city-6540553.html

My point from yesterday of that no one knows anything about transfers and the media and trusted journalists are just propaganda machines. People are very fast to believe anything negative, then disregard everything else.

bangkok

Your Airbag wrote: »

The exact opposite in fact



http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/wayne-rooney-says-he-was-never-going-to-join-manchester-city-6540553.html

easy to say that after the event.

sky88

bangkok wrote: »

do you think he was going to come out and say specifically he wanted to join city?! every man and his dog in Manchester knew his agent had talks with city and that was the move he was pushing for. Coleens sister was very sick at the time and has since passed away and that was the reason behind not leaving Manchester.


Fair enough Ronaldo left, but he went to Madrid and it was his dream to play there as it would be for most players from south America/Portugal/spain.

Rooney questioned the club saying they "cannot match his ambitions" and I think that's why there are still and will always be sour grapes towards rooney. He didn't exactly handle himself well off the pitch either, coming back over weight, smoking and grannygate!!

To be honest i think Rooney had a point with the transfer not being up to united standards as were seeing from last year and bits from this season that some of the transfer around that time were not good enough but i still think Rooney went about this in the wrong way. Its also no different to the reason RVP joined us from Arsenal because he felt the they were lacking ambition.

The Moldy Gowl

bangkok wrote: »

easy to say that after the event.

Easy to believe he is lying too. Easy to believe he isn't lying.

Putting your faith in the media to report a sports story is a mugs game, all based off hear say and how people want to be perceived.
How many times has a club/player said they aren't doing something, then go and do it.


What does the media owe them, that they should tell them their business or plans?
Loyal fans me hole, they owe the fans nothing. Look at Fellaini,Torres too, or any player that makes a mistakes. Getting cursed out of it for making a mistake.

Your Airbag

bangkok wrote: »

easy to say that after the event.

Even easier to say he wanted to join City just to attack him when there was no indication he wanted to join them. City showed interest and the papers ran with it and some people choose to believe the tabloids speculation or not. Rooney can't control who shows interest in him or what the papers say. You can control what you believe from the tabloids or not.

I have no doubt he would have not joined City had he left.

DM_7

For United new centre backs are needed because of thw number of injuries. Smalling and Jones need to improve a lot on the ball or could be replaced.

I don't see Van Gaal buying any defenders that are not very good in possession.


Not sure what that mens for Centre Half but I wonder if Clyne will be a target again like when he was at palace?

bangkok

Your Airbag wrote: »

Even easier to say he wanted to join City just to attack him when there was no indication he wanted to join them. City showed interest and the papers ran with it and some people choose to believe the tabloids speculation or not. Rooney can't control who shows interest in him or what the papers say. You can control what you believe from the tabloids or not.

I have no doubt he would have not joined City had he left.

it wasn't just the papers at the time, it was well known around the city that the deal could be done but whether united would have sold to city is another issue. stories like this do leak whether the club like it or not as there is so many different people involved.

different point but just look at the press they knew 2 days before the game that gerrard would not be starting last night and they were proven right as someone in the club be it the gerrard himself or someone close to him told someone in the press he wasn't starting

Kerrydude1981

Is that Anderson between Mata and DDG??

Has his head shrunk?

Mata surely chanced his arm with Rachel Riley

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

There was no need to re-bold those points. I read them the first time around and had little problem with them. As I said numerous times now I had no problem with those points.

Your point of not wanting to give LVG cash to buy CBs in January on the other hand is a terrible and non-sensical one and it stands on its own merits as a point, a very bad one.

Not wanting yo give LVG cash in January is aside from form and team style and is placing financial restrictions on the manager and would damage our season and team. Its a rubbish idea.

I have an issue with that and nothing else. You trying to bring other points from your posts into it is understandable. I'd be trying to move the goal posts to after saying something so silly.

No, it is not a point that stands on its own merits. Like I said earlier, I can understand why you would think my argument is bizarre/nonsensical/rubbish/stupid/silly (you have been going on haven't you) if you insist on ignoring the details of the reasoning behind it. But you shouldn't ignore the details, they're fundamental to my argument.

And again lol at claiming that I'm moving the goal posts by supporting my argument with the reasoning that I put forward in the first post on the topic.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

No, it is not a point that stands on its own merits. Like I said earlier, I can understand why you would think my argument is bizarre/nonsensical/rubbish/stupid/silly (you have been going on haven't you) if you insist on ignoring the details of the reasoning behind it. But you shouldn't ignore the details, they're fundamental to my argument.

And again lol at claiming that I'm moving the goal posts by supporting my argument with the reasoning that I put forward in the first post on the topic.

You mentioned the MF and poor defensive displays which I agreed with. I haven't ignored your points but the fact still remains that you want to financially restrict our managers attempt to rebuild.

So in that aspect yes, its aside from training and tactics displays etc. Its a financial restriction on our transfers you'd like to see.

So lets get this straight. Your wish is that if the poor displays continue that you want to stop our manager buying CBs in January and we continue with our limping defense until the end of the season. This and this only I have a problem with. It would kill us.

That's like something an Pool fan would wish on us. We are in dire need of CBs and you want to stop us buying them?

Its a bizarre idea and can't imagine one other UTD fan would share such a ridiculous opinion.

Soldie

Your Airbag wrote: »

The lads were at a unicef bash last night. Time for the WAG and fashion critics to unload

Smalling should be forced to watch Paddy McNair and Luke Shaw have at it after what he did last weekend.

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

You mentioned the MF and poor defensive displays which I agreed with. I haven't ignored your points but the fact still remains that you want to financially restrict our managers attempt to rebuild.

So in that aspect yes, its aside from training and tactics displays etc. Its a financial restriction on our transfers you'd like to see.

So lets get this straight. Your wish is that if the poor displays continue that you want to stop our manager buying CBs in January and we continue with our limping defense until the end of the season. This and this only I have a problem with. It would kill us.

That's like something an Pool fan would wish on us. We are in dire need of CBs and you want to stop us buying them?

Its a bizarre idea and can't imagine one other UTD fan would share such a ridiculous opinion.

I am not yet convinced by LVG as a manager for this club. He spent a shít load of money poorly in the summer, he has been poor at setting up a functioning strategy for the team (ie how formation, transfers and tactics work together) and, even taking injuries into consideration, he has been poor at organising the team defensively (ie half of his coaching job).

In order to achieve long term success I think we shouldn't just allow a manager to spend all of the budget because he has an impressive CV. So far he has not proven himself up to the job. If he proves that he can organise a defence before January then let him fire away on the transfers. If he has not proven himself at that point then give him another half season to do so. The quality of defenders and injury problems we have are not as bad as the displays being put in. LVG needs to prove himself a better manager before I would trust him with the remaining budget.

I would be perfectly happy to go another season without CL football in order to ensure that we have the right man for the job, before we allow him to spend all of our money.

You disagree with that. Good. Tell me again how you think it's a stupid/rubbish/bizarre/silly/vindictive/weird/bad idea. I didn't get your point the first seven times you made it.

homerjay2005

Billy86 wrote: »

Defensively speaking, it wouldn't be much of an upgrade.

ah come off it, at this stage any player who can stay fit and/or complete games for a couple of weeks is an upgrade.

the sad thing is, almost everybody with half a brain knew that our defensive options were not good enough taking into account the last few years worth of injury problems. its a right mess the club left it get to, defenders should have been lined up and signed since May.

Liam O

Pro. F wrote: »

I am not yet convinced by LVG as a manager for this club. He spent a shít load of money poorly in the summer, he has been poor at setting up a functioning strategy for the team (ie how formation, transfers and tactics work together) and, even taking injuries into consideration, he has been poor at organising the team defensively (ie half of his coaching job).

In order to achieve long term success I think we shouldn't just allow a manager to spend all of the budget because he has an impressive CV. So far he has not proven himself up to the job. If he proves that he can organise a defence before January then let him fire away on the transfers. If he has not proven himself at that point then give him another half season to do so. The quality of defenders and injury problems we have are not as bad as the displays being put in. LVG needs to prove himself a better manager before I would trust him with the remaining budget.

I would be perfectly happy to go another season without CL football in order to ensure that we have the right man for the job, before we allow him to spend all of our money.

You disagree with that. Good. Tell me again how you think it's a stupid/rubbish/bizarre/silly/vindictive/weird/bad idea. I didn't get your point the first seven times you made it.

Sacking LVG would be the absolute worst thing that the club could do in the near future. He managed to organise Vlaar, Martins-Indi and De Vrij in the Summer, albeit playing ultra conservative.

I think he was slightly forced into getting the marquee players, not that I'm overly complaining about Di Maria and Falcao. If you look at it I'd say Blind and Rojo were the only 2 signings this summer you could totally attribute to him and I'm happy with both of them, shame Rojo is out for a bit now as I think he has a lot of skill on the ball and tackling from what I've seen so far, I think he'll be great and Blind was good value for money.

I think he'll do quite well if given time and money to fix the issues, I still feel however more issues would have been solved if Moyes was given the same money this summer.

bangkok

homerjay2005 wrote: »

ah come off it, at this stage any player who can stay fit and/or complete games for a couple of weeks is an upgrade.

the sad thing is, almost everybody with half a brain knew that our defensive options were not good enough taking into account the last few years worth of injury problems. its a right mess the club left it get to, defenders should have been lined up and signed since May.

its not just our club that has defensive problems...

look at some of the biggest clubs around Europe at the moment

Barcelona, still have a centre midfielder playing centre back

Arsenal, enough said

Liverpool awful defence at the moment

Chelsea are only a couple of injuries away from a defensive crisis.

Dortmund, in relegation at the moment 2nd from bottom. defence in bits

Man city, anything happens to Kompany and they are in trouble.

There is a genuine lack of top class centre halves available in todays market

Pro. F

Liam O wrote: »

Sacking LVG would be the absolute worst thing that the club could do in the near future. He managed to organise Vlaar, Martins-Indi and De Vrij in the Summer, albeit playing ultra conservative.

I think he was slightly forced into getting the marquee players, not that I'm overly complaining about Di Maria and Falcao. If you look at it I'd say Blind and Rojo were the only 2 signings this summer you could totally attribute to him and I'm happy with both of them, shame Rojo is out for a bit now as I think he has a lot of skill on the ball and tackling from what I've seen so far, I think he'll be great and Blind was good value for money.

I think he'll do quite well if given time and money to fix the issues, I still feel however more issues would have been solved if Moyes was given the same money this summer.

For all we know it was one of his assistants that got that defensive shape working for Holland. Plus, a World Cup - being a knock-out competition, with all the variance that entails - is not as true a test as a league season.

I certainly don't agree with you that things would have been fixed if Moyes had been kept on and given the budget to spend and I'm yet to be convinced by Van Gaal. At least there is plenty of time and opportunity for the current manager to prove himself, so I'm happy to wait and I am hopeful.

Liam O

Pro. F wrote: »

For all we know it was one of his assistants that got that defensive shape working for Holland. Plus, a World Cup - being a knock-out competition, with all the variance that entails - is not as true a test as a league season.

I certainly don't agree with you that things would have been fixed if Moyes had been kept on and given the budget to spend and I'm yet to be convinced by Van Gaal. At least there is plenty of time and opportunity for the current manager to prove himself, so I'm happy to wait and I am hopeful.

How much did it cost for Moyes to assemble the back 4 be did at Everton? Peanuts compared to what United had to spend. He was never given a chance to play how he really wanted to play.

Pro. F

Liam O wrote: »

How much did it cost for Moyes to assemble the back 4 be did at Everton? Peanuts compared to what United had to spend. He was never given a chance to play how he really wanted to play.

He was given a strong squad and £65m to spend and he produced turgid football and a 7th place finish. He was given a great chance and lots of time and he wasn't up to the task.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

1. I am not yet convinced by LVG as a manager for this club. He spent a shít load of money poorly in the summer, he has been poor at setting up a functioning strategy for the team (ie how formation, transfers and tactics work together) and, even taking injuries into consideration, he has been poor at organising the team defensively (ie half of his coaching job).

In order to achieve long term success I think we shouldn't just allow a manager to spend all of the budget because he has an impressive CV. So far he has not proven himself up to the job. If he proves that he can organise a defence before January then let him fire away on the transfers. If he has not proven himself at that point then give him another half season to do so.2. The quality of defenders and injury problems we have are not as bad as the displays being put in. LVG needs to prove himself a better manager before I would trust him with the remaining budget.

I would be perfectly happy to go another season without CL football in order to ensure that we have the right man for the job, before we allow him to spend all of our money.

You disagree with that. Good. Tell me again how you think it's a stupid/rubbish/bizarre/silly/vindictive/weird/bad idea. I didn't get your point the first seven times you made it.

1. He's had months and is trying to rebuild. This takes time. Progress hasn't been amazing but its a tougher job than what Moyes had on his hands.

2. Its pretty even. Its an injury crisis in defense I can't think of another team coming close too. 10 different CB pairings with McNair and Rojo being our most paired at close to two full games speaks volumes. UTD have always been built on solid defensive CB pairings. Bruce/ Pallister, Vidic/Rio. We play our best with a consistent two, injury has robbed us of any chance of doing so. We have had a defender in from the reserves and then another from the reservs to replace him when he got a red card.

Another season without UCL football? It would be a very bad and would restrict further spending for another manager.

If you insist I'll say it again. Not allowing LVG to buy CBs would be the worst possible thing we could do. It would make no sense. Our defense is in tatters, we have a good attack and things could really click with a good defense. We are 4 points of fourth. Why you would want to hamper improvement and progress with the chance there in January is beyond me.

Our priority no.1 in January should be to buy one CB minimum. What your suggesting would be suicidal for our season. You have given some very weak and flakey reasons to try justify your point, none of which are a good idea.

keane2097

Pro. F wrote: »

He was given a strong squad and £65m to spend and he produced turgid football and a 7th place finish. He was given a great chance and lots of time and he wasn't up to the task.

Surely the strong squad thing is becoming more flimsy with every passing week?

12 months on Ferdinand and Vidic are both clearly finished (not that there was much doubt), I don't think anyone argues Evra was long since finished. Rafael always injured. Jones, Evans, Smalling all at various stages along the always injured/not good enough axes.

Young, Valencia, Cleverley all not up to it. Carrick good but injured a lot IIRC? Fletcher completely finished. Fellaini good but injured a lot.

Good strikers, good goalie.

The defence was terrible, the midfield was terrible at best and worse because of injury.

Moyes didn't do a good job in his own right, but it's time to drop this idea that he had all the tools he needed at his disposal, since it's now very obvious that the squad was in bits.

This is also why LVG has started slowly obviously - a root and branch reorganisation has been needed, and he's trying to do that in the face of constantly having to reshuffle all positions on the pitch and adjust formation to account for wildly fluctuating availability of senior players in key positions. On top of that, the players we probably all agreed deserved a chance to step into senior roles at the start of the season are all looking like they aren't good enough or reliable enough.

The "You don't seem to be able to get these terrible and/or always injured defenders to play well so we're not going to let you get better and/or more reliable defenders" seems like a laughable line of reasoning and I've been reading it for two days trying to be charitable with it at this stage.

Cantona's Collars

Jamie Jackson saying we aren't signing anyone in January,going by his record that means we'll see 2 or 3 players joining the club.

bangkok

Pro. F wrote: »

He was given a strong squad and £65m to spend and he produced turgid football and a 7th place finish. He was given a great chance and lots of time and he wasn't up to the task.

easy way to put it but moyes wasn't backed in the summer when it was clear he wanted some players and they were never signed for him and you cant say he gave them a 7th place finish when he was sacked with 4 games to go. He didn't even get 1 full season

UnitedIrishman

Pro. F wrote: »

For all we know it was one of his assistants that got that defensive shape working for Holland. Plus, a World Cup - being a knock-out competition, with all the variance that entails - is not as true a test as a league season.

I certainly don't agree with you that things would have been fixed if Moyes had been kept on and given the budget to spend and I'm yet to be convinced by Van Gaal. At least there is plenty of time and opportunity for the current manager to prove himself, so I'm happy to wait and I am hopeful.

Time will tell but I definitely think it is a bit unfair to judge his ability to coach us defensively yet or his abilty to get our positioning right. For the vast majority of the season so far we've had a number of first choice defenders missing from training - so instead of coaching a group together, he's had to try use whatever players that are there. Then you get a player back and you have to try get 3 weeks work into him to bring him up to speed with the rest of the defence.

With the Dutch team at the World Cup, he had 5 weeks or so pre-tournament where they worked intensively as a group on their shape and their positioning without any injuries. And by all accounts it is Van Gaal himself that coaches the positional/shape aspect of his teams personally.

Already we're seeing our defence being more responsible for the iniation of attacks rather than just defending. We rarely kick the ball long upfield from kick outs and our backs have a lot of possession waiting for gaps to appear in midfield rather than rushing it forward.

Just a question on something said earlier in the thread, you say that you wouldn't be giving LvG money in January to invest in defence (he said he's not going to invest in Jan as it is) - why would you be adverse to giving him money unless you were basically saying that you aren't confident of him as manager?

Edit: nevermind, scratch that last question.. just seen your post that your not convinced of him. I know its an opinion if course but I find that odd.

Your Airbag

keane2097 wrote: »

Surely the strong squad thing is becoming more flimsy with every passing week?

12 months on Ferdinand and Vidic are both clearly finished (not that there was much doubt), I don't think anyone argues Evra was long since finished. Rafael always injured. Jones, Evans, Smalling all at various stages along the always injured/not good enough axes.

Young, Valencia, Cleverley all not up to it. Carrick good but injured a lot IIRC? Fletcher completely finished. Fellaini good but injured a lot.

Good strikers, good goalie.

The defence was terrible, the midfield was terrible at best and worse because of injury.

Moyes didn't do a good job in his own right, but it's time to drop this idea that he had all the tools he needed at his disposal, since it's now very obvious that the squad was in bits.

This is also why LVG has started slowly obviously - a root and branch reorganisation has been needed, and he's trying to do that in the face of constantly having to reshuffle all positions on the pitch and adjust formation to account for wildly fluctuating availability of senior players in key positions. On top of that, the players we probably all agreed deserved a chance to step into senior roles at the start of the season are all looking like they aren't good enough or reliable enough.

The "You don't seem to be able to get these terrible and/or always injured defenders to play well so we're not going to let you get better and/or more reliable defenders" seems like a laughable line of reasoning and I've been reading it for two days trying to be charitable with it at this stage.

Spot on

Anyone who is till of the opinion that Moyes had a title winning squad and turned them into midtable team is clearly wrong.

Yes he got his tactics wrong but there were many more factors at play

Fergie got the last drop out of some of those players and even under him players like Evra and Cleverly were clearly done at UTD standard.

When you look back Moyes was doomed from the start in many ways. Had he had an amazing transfer window maybe he could have done better so there is much he did wrong but that squad was past it in many areas.

For LVG starting off we lost Rio, Vidic, Evra, Cleverly, Giggs, Nani, Buttner and Chico. Carrick and Fletch pretty much thus far also.

Thats a huge gutting for a team two go through. Our squad has been through huge changes these past two summers which is why this is probably the toughest job LVG has ever had. I think he said as much himself.

Comparing this to Moyes time or LVGs world cup experince is pointless. The situations are very different.

bangkok

".good to see Carrick back. Best English defensive midfielder of his generation."

rio Ferdinand tweet the other day.... at least players and some fans realise how good he is

Mitch Connor

bangkok wrote: »

".good to see Carrick back. Best English defensive midfielder of his generation."

rio Ferdinand tweet the other day.... at least players and some fans realise how good he is

If it is true - and people will argue it all day long... - who is his competition for the role?

Barry? Huddlestone? Cattermole? England aren't exactly blessed with defensive midfielders for the last decade or so. England have had some very good midfielders - Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes the best - but in terms of actual defensive midfielders there are very few to compare him to.

keane2097

Your Airbag wrote: »

Fergie got the last drop out of some of those players and even under him players like Evra and Cleverly were clearly done at UTD standard.

It's not my first time saying this but there seems to be a huge disconnect between people saying Ferguson was the best manager of all time but who don't seem to think him being the manager had any effect on the performances of his players.

If that squad was in great shape in 2012 or whenever it was then what was his great achievement in winning the EPL when all the other teams were in fall apart mode?

Ferguson was amazing, the reason being he was able to get league winning form out of a plainly dodgy squad.

Your Airbag

keane2097 wrote: »

It's not my first time saying this but there seems to be a huge disconnect between people saying Ferguson was the best manager of all time but who don't seem to think him being the manager had any effect on the performances of his players.

If that squad was in great shape in 2012 or whenever it was then what was his great achievement in winning the EPL when all the other teams were in fall apart mode?

Ferguson was amazing, the reason being he was able to get league winning form out of a plainly dodgy squad.

This

Whatever he said to motivate them, however he trained them or whatever his match day routine was he worked wonders in that last season. A lot of people feel City and Chelsea blew it themselves also so the 12 point margin flattered us but Fergie had us in contention.

I don't know if I'd go as far as to call it a plainly dodgy squad as there were some class players there but is was an aging squad with numerous problem areas and lets not forget there were many shockingly poor displays under Fergie for a couple of seasons but Fergie was able to get them up for a fight and to raise their game for the big matches time and time again. He's probably the best motivator sports has ever seen.

bangkok

Mitch Connor wrote: »

If it is true - and people will argue it all day long... - who is his competition for the role?

Barry? Huddlestone? Cattermole? England aren't exactly blessed with defensive midfielders for the last decade or so. England have had some very good midfielders - Gerrard, Lampard, Scholes the best - but in terms of actual defensive midfielders there are very few to compare him to.

that was his whole point though wasn't it... they tried players there, the likes of gerrard in the defensive role, lampard, wilshere, rodwell, you could argue Hargreaves and his point being Carrick was better than all of those in that position..

bangkok

Your Airbag wrote: »

This

Whatever he said to motivate them, however he trained them or whatever his match day routine was he worked wonders in that last season. A lot of people feel City and Chelsea blew it themselves also so the 12 point margin flattered us but Fergie had us in contention.

I don't know if I'd go as far as to call it a plainly dodgy squad as there were some class players there but is was an aging squad with numerous problem areas and lets not forget there were many shockingly poor displays under Fergie for a couple of seasons but Fergie was able to get them up for a fight and to raise their game for the big matches time and time again. He's probably the best motivator sports has ever seen.

yes he was magic, his team talks were legendary, revered all over the world.

Mitch Connor

bangkok wrote: »

that was his whole point though wasn't it... they tried players there, the likes of gerrard in the defensive role, lampard, wilshere, rodwell, you could argue Hargreaves and his point being Carrick was better than all of those in that position..

Forgot about Hargreaves. Reckon if he hadn't been fecked by injuries he'd have been the better DM than Carrick. BUt yeah, the rest of them were or are poor fits in the DM role, which Carrick suits the best. Really though, calling him the best DM of his generation is damning him with feint praise.

Would be like calling Paul Robinson the best keeper of his generation, and comparing him to Kirkland and Ben Foster or something like that.

keane2097

bangkok wrote: »

yes he was magic, his team talks were legendary, revered all over the world.

The question which comes out of that notion is of course do we think Moyes - and by extension LVG - needed the same players a year older, or better players to achieve the same results?

Maximus Alexander

keane2097 wrote: »

The question which comes out of that notion is of course do we think Moyes - and by extension LVG - needed the same players a year older, or better players to achieve the same results?

I said it last year, but it's relevant to this discussion: I'm not convinced there's a manager in the game who could have inherited that squad from Ferguson and, with virtually no changes, challenged for the title.

I've no doubt that there are managers who could have placed higher than Moyes, but that's as far as I'd go.

Soccernomics has a great statistical analysis of the correlation between wage totals and league performances and it showed that in general, regardless of who is in charge, the quality of the squad (indicated by what they're paid) is an excellent predictor of final league position.

There were a couple of notable exceptions to this rule, the most impressive being Alex Ferguson who consistently over-performed. He wasn't a normal manager and we were all painfully aware of the shortcomings in the squad while he was in charge, so I find it really hard to understand why people are then surprised when his successors fall well short of his achievements.

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

1. He's had months and is trying to rebuild. This takes time. Progress hasn't been amazing but its a tougher job than what Moyes had on his hands.

I'm certainly not going to waste time arguing about the question of whether it was a harder job than Moyes'.

It does indeed take time. That is why I'm not calling for him to be sacked.

Your Airbag wrote: »

2. Its pretty even. Its an injury crisis in defense I can't think of another team coming close too. 10 different CB pairings with McNair and Rojo being our most paired at close to two full games speaks volumes. UTD have always been built on solid defensive CB pairings. Bruce/ Pallister, Vidic/Rio. We play our best with a consistent two, injury has robbed us of any chance of doing so. We have had a defender in from the reserves and then another from the reservs to replace him when he got a red card.

Yes it's true that consistent starts together is important for a defence to get organised. I haven't denied that. LVG's poor strategy with formations and transfers, leading to chopping and changing of formation, tactics and players and what appears to be poor defensive coaching has exacerbated the defensive problems caused by injuries imo. You don't agree that it has been as much of a factor as I think. I'm okay with you not agreeing.

Your Airbag wrote: »

Another season without UCL football? It would be very bad and would restrict further spending for another manager.

It would also be very bad for the club to allow a manager to spend so much money purely based on his impressive CV. LVG has already spent something like £120m and he made a balls of it. He has also been poor enough at getting the best out of the players available to him. I'd like to see him improve that aspect at least before I give him even more money to spend.

I think what would be best for ensuring long term success is to actually view the job he is doing before we let him spend more money. He has plenty of time before January to prove himself.

Unfortunately the Glazers might not be able to plan for the long term, because their financial mismanagement of the club and the possible need for CL football right now. But their finances are murky and it's hard to know what is going on in that regard at any particular time, so when we're talking about the football I'm going to focus on what's needed for long term, sustainable success.

Your Airbag wrote: »

If you insist I'll say it again. Not allowing LVG to buy CBs would be the worst possible thing we could do. It would make no sense. Our defense is in tatters, we have a good attack and things could really click with a good defense. We are 4 points of fourth. Why you would want to hamper improvement and progress with the chance there in January is beyond me.

Our priority no.1 in January should be to buy one CB minimum. What your suggesting would be suicidal for our season. You have given some very weak and flakey reasons to try justify your point, none of which are a good idea.

You don't agree with me. I got that the first time you said it. But go on and tell me again.

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

I'm certainly not going to waste time arguing about the question of whether it was a harder job than Moyes'.

It does indeed take time. That is why I'm not calling for him to be sacked.



Yes it's true that consistent starts together is important for a defence to get organised. I haven't denied that. LVG's poor strategy with formations and transfers, leading to chopping and changing of formation, tactics and players and what appears to be poor defensive coaching has exacerbated the defensive problems caused by injuries imo. You don't agree that it has been as much of a factor as I think. I'm okay with you not agreeing.



It would also be very bad for the club to allow a manager to spend so much money purely based on his impressive CV. LVG has already spent something like £120m and he made a balls of it. He has also been poor enough at getting the best out of the players available to him. I'd like to see him improve that aspect at least before I give him even more money to spend.

I think what would be best for ensuring long term success is to actually view the job he is doing before we let him spend more money. He has plenty of time before January to prove himself.

Unfortunately the Glazers might not be able to plan for the long term, because their financial mismanagement of the club and the possible need for CL football right now. But their finances are murky and it's hard to know what is going on in that regard at any particular time, so when we're talking about the football I'm going to focus on what's needed for long term, sustainable success.



You don't agree with me. I got that the first time you said it. But go on and tell me again.

LVG has been in the job how many months? He hasn't made a balls of the season yet, thus far it hasn't been what we expected but it doesn't mean he can't turn it around.

We are only four points off fourth place. That's not a mountain. In the new year when the teams around us have busy schedules we can move on up the table.

Its imperative we sort out our defense in January and who knows what we an achieve.

You suggest not to allow LVG to do this and not to give us as a club the best chance this season. I doubt you'll find another person who thinks this is a good idea.

Pro. F

keane2097 wrote: »

Surely the strong squad thing is becoming more flimsy with every passing week?

12 months on Ferdinand and Vidic are both clearly finished (not that there was much doubt), I don't think anyone argues Evra was long since finished. Rafael always injured. Jones, Evans, Smalling all at various stages along the always injured/not good enough axes.

Young, Valencia, Cleverley all not up to it. Carrick good but injured a lot IIRC? Fletcher completely finished. Fellaini good but injured a lot.

Good strikers, good goalie.

The defence was terrible, the midfield was terrible at best and worse because of injury.

Moyes didn't do a good job in his own right, but it's time to drop this idea that he had all the tools he needed at his disposal, since it's now very obvious that the squad was in bits.

Ferguson was great, but he didn't win a league with a squad deserving of finishing 7th.

I don't think the squad was as lacking in quality or held back by injury as you are making out. Things weren't easy, but they were not that bad and with the £64m Moyes had to spend he certainly had enough to improve the the weak areas, but instead he wasted it.

keane2097 wrote: »

This is also why LVG has started slowly obviously - a root and branch reorganisation has been needed, and he's trying to do that in the face of constantly having to reshuffle all positions on the pitch and adjust formation to account for wildly fluctuating availability of senior players in key positions. On top of that, the players we probably all agreed deserved a chance to step into senior roles at the start of the season are all looking like they aren't good enough or reliable enough.

The fact that LVG made such a balls of his transfer dealings and choosing formations has been a very big reason for him having to constantly reshuffle all positions and formations.

I don't agree that those players (Jones, Smalling, Evans and Rafael I assume you are talking about) are looking like they aren't good enough at this stage. I'd like to see them working for a manager that doesn't change the formation every second game and can implement sound defensive organisation for a month or two before I make a final judgement. Although their injury issues might finish their chances in the long run regardless.

keane2097 wrote: »

The "You don't seem to be able to get these terrible and/or always injured defenders to play well so we're not going to let you get better and/or more reliable defenders" seems like a laughable line of reasoning and I've been reading it for two days trying to be charitable with it at this stage.

I don't think the quality and injuries have been as bad as you do. And I think it is laughable to think that we should allow this manager to spend even more money after the balls of a job he made of it in the summer, unless he starts to show something more on the pitch.

However I do apologise that you have had to read so much of this argument. I never expected many (or any) fans to agree with me, but unfortunately it was Your Airbag who decided to argue the point and that never works out well.

keane2097

Pro. F wrote: »

However I do apologise that you have had to read so much of this argument. I never expected many (or any) fans to agree with me, but unfortunately it was Your Airbag who decided to argue the point and that never works out well.

Not complaining about having to read it in the least, just saying I've been chewing it over/giving it a chance and still think it doesn't make sense.

It's good to have the odd day or two worth of posting that isn't morons arguing with trolls.

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

LVG has been in the job how many months? He hasn't made a balls of the season yet, thus far it hasn't been what we expected but it doesn't mean he can't turn it around.

We are only four points off fourth place. That's not a mountain. In the new year when the teams around us have busy schedules we can move on up the table.

Its imperative we sort out our defense in January and who knows what we an achieve.

I didn't say that LVG has made a balls of the season. Obviously I think there is a possibility that he could still turn it around, that's why that possibility is a part of the argument I put forward.

Your Airbag wrote: »

You suggest not to allow LVG to do this and not to give us as a club the best chance this season. I doubt you'll find another person who thinks this is a good idea.

I could not give a flying fúck if nobody agrees with me.

But go on and tell me again how you don't agree with me. I love reading the same shít from you over and over again.