Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

kryogen

It was a goal though right?

The Moldy Gowl

wanna fight about it? No mods around to break us up. We can have a PL gif battle and break all the copyrights.

Mitch Connor

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

http://gfycat.com/RelievedSoupyBoaconstrictor

This about sums up why Rooney should start ahead of Mata, for tight matches.

Mata would have controlled the ball as it came down at the start of that clip and played a poetically beautiful pass to a United player.

glued

kryogen wrote: »

Pretty simple really, I don't like his public persona. I suppose, what you might take from this experience is that assumption is the mother of all **** ups? (As you obviously haven't already learnt it from Steven Seagal films)

Now to move the goal posts back to your original statement-

Finally, no, I am not foolish enough to doubt Rooneys ability as a footballer, it is very obvious for everyone to see. Anybody who thinks he is rubbish, and hasn't done it for 3 years now is simply incorrect.

I would have a kind of morbid curiosity actually as to how someone could genuinely reach that conclusion.

The only poor assumption that I made was where I thought you might actually attempt to respond to the initial post without trying to be a poor comedian.

Also nobody is doubting Rooney's ability as a footballer. However, he has under performed regularly since 2011/12 albeit with good games in between but overall his performances haven't been great. He's not the same player at all.

Mitch Connor

My biggest issue with Rooney is looking at the kid we bought and the player we now have. the kid was better. Faster, hungrier, more of a threat. This Rooney isn't the driving force he should be, and also, far too often, his passing and control (especially control) let him down when they really shouldn't.

The_Kew_Tour

I dont know.

I think Rooney still has hunger and the drive. He is obviously more mature now and his passing IMO is still very good, in fact its much better then younger years.

His control is something that IMO has always been a shaky point of his.

Bar 1 poor long pass Sunday I thought he played well.

To put it quite simple, when Rooney plays United play better.(most of time)

Larry Wildman

Mitch Connor wrote: »

My biggest issue with Rooney is looking at the kid we bought and the player we now have. the kid was better. Faster, hungrier, more of a threat. This Rooney isn't the driving force he should be, and also, far too often, his passing and control (especially control) let him down when they really shouldn't.

Spot on.

He's still a superb player but the freak of nature who we bought from Everton is sadly gone.

Lifestyle and a genetic propensity to be overweight are the problem in my humble opinion.

Irishcrx

kryogen wrote: »

Anyone who doesn't consider him one of the best in the world is not really worth paying much attention to in fairness.

He is one of the best in the world no doubt. It's shocking that he isn't Spain's number 1 at this stage , he is streets ahead of Casillas right now. I don't say that just because he is a Utd player I say it because it's obvious in most peoples eyes bar the Spanish national team.

Irishcrx

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Spot on.

He's still a superb player but the freak of nature who we bought from Everton is sadly gone.

Lifestyle and a genetic propensity to be overweight are the problem in my humble opinion.

He's a very different player from the one we bought from Everton and there's a couple of thing's that have led to it.

Hunger - Yes , Rooney is still a hungry player but he's not the hungry player that he was. When he came to Utd he had something to prove , he was fearless , reckless some would say but I really think a Rooney with a fire in his belly is the better player, the player that will take on defenders and look to shoot from well outside the box or closely inside. Ferguson changed him as a player for the good for the most part but other parts of his game were lost over time.

Position - He has always been switched around at Utd , not allowed to play as an out and out striker he was switched between the wing's , up front , midfield. For the good of the team yes , but his best position was playing as a striker not so sure about that now.

Fitness - His fitness and weight have been up and down through the years. While the likes of Ronaldo/Bale went on to be top top athletes and players Rooney fell short of this mark once he 'made it' at Utd he didn't have the drive to push himself the extra mile like those lads.

Touch - Kind of ties into everything really , he doesn't have bad control or first touch by a long shot but it isn't what you expect of a world class player and it has dropped off the past few seasons to the point where at times it is sloppy. As said this is part of everything , he has lost a yard of pace , rarely takes on a defender anymore, loose passing is becoming more evident and that sideways ball he looks for over the top is obvious now and being cut out. Your compare his touch to RVP/Falcao/Di Maria and that's what it has to be compared to it's not as good.

He's still a very good player , but is in decline no doubt and IMO shouldn't be earning 300,000k pounds a week at Utd.

Backstreet Moyes

Mitch Connor wrote: »

My biggest issue with Rooney is looking at the kid we bought and the player we now have. the kid was better. Faster, hungrier, more of a threat. This Rooney isn't the driving force he should be, and also, far too often, his passing and control (especially control) let him down when they really shouldn't.

Rooney has put the club before him so much that he never turned into the player he could have been. He has played in cm on the wings and behind the striker when he is best as a striker. In what 10+ years he has played 2 seasons as a striker up top yet he will still soon be the clubs record goalscorer of all time.

Backstreet Moyes

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Mata would have controlled the ball as it came down at the start of that clip and played a poetically beautiful pass to a United player.

Maybe if he was in a Chelsea jersey he might have.

bangkok

Mitch Connor wrote: »

My biggest issue with Rooney is looking at the kid we bought and the player we now have. the kid was better. Faster, hungrier, more of a threat. This Rooney isn't the driving force he should be, and also, far too often, his passing and control (especially control) let him down when they really shouldn't.

maybe because that was 10 years ago??

You wouldn't say messi was the same player he was either from 5-7 years ago, he has definitely gone back as well.

It happens, players get older and start to lose what they once had

Mitch Connor

bangkok wrote: »

maybe because that was 10 years ago??

You wouldn't say messi was the same player he was either from 5-7 years ago, he has definitely gone back as well.

It happens, players get older and start to lose what they once had

Messi still runs at people, still scores from range etc, is still a danger every time he gets the ball.

Messi is a different player to the one that first appeared at Barca - but he is a better player in all aspects, imo.

Ronaldo is different to years back too - he is also better.

Rooney is not, imo.

Also, imo, that is down to both him and United (Fergie).

Larry Wildman

Being played on the wing and sacrificed in favour of Ronaldo definitely stifled his development.

He has been a great player for United though. He probably should have been greater but perhaps then Ronaldo and 2008 etc wouldn't have happened?

He should have respected his body more though - The professionalism of Bale and Ronaldo would have seen him achieve more.

Backstreet Moyes

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Being played on the wing and sacrificed in favour of Ronaldo definitely stifled his development.

He has been a great player for United though. He probably should have been greater but perhaps then Ronaldo and 2008 etc wouldn't have happened?

He should have respected his body more though - The professionalism of Bale and Ronaldo would have seen him achieve more.

Just my personal opinion if Rooney had been playing up top in his time at United he would already have smashed the goalscoring record. If he had the lifestyle of Ronaldo and Bale as you said he could have been one of the very best.

eamondunphy

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Messi still runs at people, still scores from range etc, is still a danger every time he gets the ball.

Messi is a different player to the one that first appeared at Barca - but he is a better player in all aspects, imo.

Ronaldo is different to years back too - he is also better.

Rooney is not, imo.

Also, imo, that is down to both him and United (Fergie).

Yup, barring major injuries, the vast majority of players are better in their late 20s compared to the late teens

Ordinary man

Lvg should show rooney a video of his run against city when he burst forward and tell him to keep repeating that. It's too long since i saw him even attempt that. When he was younger he could power past/though defenders but he cut it out over the years.

Lord TSC

Ordinary man wrote: »

Lvg should show rooney a video of his run against city when he burst forward and tell him to keep repeating that. It's too long since i saw him even attempt that. When he was younger he could power past/though defenders but he cut it out over the years.

Really don't like Rooney as a player tbh, but that run did give me chills....

homerjay2005

i really do find it baffling the amount of people that still question Rooney, i guess part of this is down to the obsession some people have with Juan Mata and the mad notion that he should be picked before Rooney.

bangkok

Ordinary man wrote: »

Lvg should show rooney a video of his run against city when he burst forward and tell him to keep repeating that. It's too long since i saw him even attempt that. When he was younger he could power past/though defenders but he cut it out over the years.

was his first touch in that run to take it past 2 city players not just bad ball control as well? it was where I seen it from

Mitch Connor

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i really do find it baffling the amount of people that still question Rooney, i guess part of this is down to the obsession some people have with Juan Mata and the mad notion that he should be picked before Rooney.

based on team performances this season I will happily admit Rooney should start ahead of him - Mata simply hasn't performed as he should for us.

However, that doesn't change or impact my opinion on Rooney. He is not a bad player, he is a very good one - but he is not world class. he is not worth being the highest paid player in England and he has not fulfilled the potential he had when he broke through.

Ordinary man

Lord TSC wrote: »

Really don't like Rooney as a player tbh, but that run did give me chills....

Rooney even with all the stupid things he has done is still probably my favourite current player. When the games are tough he tries harder instead of hiding. No other player would have chased back to stop yaya the last day. If half the team had the same intensity and passion to their game, united would not be rolling over as easily as they have done in the last 2 seasons

duffman13

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i really do find it baffling the amount of people that still question Rooney, i guess part of this is down to the obsession some people have with Juan Mata and the mad notion that he should be picked before Rooney.

Mata - Really likeable guy

Rooney - not so much

Chico and Welbeck were really popular players for united but were never gonna be starters for united.

People let there personal opinion cloud what's in front of them. Mata has a better first touch and is great player. Rooney works harder for the team and offers more to the all around game than Mata. Rooney has absolutely done my nut in at times but we look a lot better with Rooney at 10 than Mata.

Mr Alan

Lord TSC wrote: »

Really don't like Rooney as a player tbh, but that run did give me chills....

He beat 1 player?

Maximus Alexander

Mr Alan wrote: »

He beat 1 player?

That's why he used 'run', singular.

homerjay2005

Mitch Connor wrote: »

based on team performances this season I will happily admit Rooney should start ahead of him - Mata simply hasn't performed as he should for us.

However, that doesn't change or impact my opinion on Rooney. He is not a bad player, he is a very good one - but he is not world class. he is not worth being the highest paid player in England and he has not fulfilled the potential he had when he broke through.

he is about to become our highest ever goal scorer.
he is about to become Englands leading goal scorer.
he is our club captain and iconic figure.
he has helped the club win 5 premier leagues, get to 3 CL finals and 4 other major honours.

is he worth 300k a week based on performances? hell no.

however, you can be damn sure that for every penny wayne rooney is paid by the club, he brings in multiples of that back in.

and the reality is also, that we dont actually pay him the 300k directly in salary, the majority of his last pay increase comes through endorsements and bonus.

i get the Rooney hate from some people in terms of his previous issues, however to question his ability and importance to the team (or more so focus on his wages as the barometer he should be measured by)is extremely annoying.

Lord TSC

homerjay2005 wrote: »

i really do find it baffling the amount of people that still question Rooney, i guess part of this is down to the obsession some people have with Juan Mata and the mad notion that he should be picked before Rooney.

I was for Mata over Rooney a few weeks back, but please let's not put arguments into people's mouths; that time has passed.

Right now, my belief would be that I'd like to see a proper world class #10 or CM player brought in instead of shoe-horning Rooney into those roles. My desire to see a different player in over Rooney has nothing to do with Mata....

Spazdarn

I think Mata is better served in his position, it can be argued that Rooney can do equally as good a job, but I pine for the days where Rooney was an out and out striker. He's far more mobile than RVP, (Falcao can't really judge atm). I'd love Rooney to play off RVP higher up the pitch.

The midfield is in an awful lot better shape than it's been in for a good while, let the tracking back to defence for them.

homerjay2005

as regards this "number 10"debate, Rooney is a striker/center forward first and foremost and that is where he should be played.

compairing him to Mata is completely useless when the reality is if Rooney was at Chelsea, City, Bayern he would be played up top and left do what he does best, score goals.

the real debate about Mata V Rooney should be that we are playing two strikers, sometimes 3 in our team and Rooney is being played out of position to accommodate those other players.

keane2097

I think Mata has been pretty good lately. It's a different role when he's in there compared to Rooney, they're both good players.

Pro. F

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

http://gfycat.com/RelievedSoupyBoaconstrictor

This about sums up why Rooney should start ahead of Mata, for tight matches.

I don't think his superior defending is the key issue right now. I think his movement off the ball is so good when the team have possession that he is available to receive far more often than Mata and that's what's really important. He covers so much ground when his teammates have the ball and it's intelligent movement, so he's always in the right place at the right time to help keep possession moving. For a player whose fitness is so often questioned he puts most other forwards to shame in terms of workrate.

Ordinary man

I'd like to see

---

blind

---

herrera- fellaini- di maria

---

mata

---

---

rooney

---

Pack the midfield and let the fb provide width. Herrera and di maria can go wide into space and rooney's movement would create space for others.

Pro. F

Ordinary man wrote: »

I'd like to see

---

blind

---

herrera- fellaini- di maria

---

mata

---

---

rooney

---

Pack the midfield and let the fb provide width. Herrera and di maria can go wide into space and rooney's movement would create space for others.

You'd also have an effective defensive shape ( 442) that all the players comfortably slot into. And Hererra's workrate on one wing would give Di Maria more licence to wander on the other, with the rest of the midfield shifting across if needed. Also Rooney and Mata seem like good foils for each other. They'd score a shīttonne.

But we have RVP and Falcao to be accommodated so this is probably never going to happen.

adox

Mata has been a huge disappointment and I dont know if he will ever be a success at Utd.

adox

Mr Alan wrote: »

He beat 1 player?

2

Mitch Connor

Pro. F wrote: »

I don't think his superior defending is the key issue right now. I think his movement off the ball is so good when the team have possession that he is available to receive far more often than Mata and that's what's really important. He covers so much ground when his teammates have the ball and it's intelligent movement, so he's always in the right place at the right time to help keep possession moving. For a player whose fitness is so often questioned he puts most other forwards to shame in terms of workrate.

He puts himself in position to get the ball a lot, yeah. But i am unconvinced that is always a good thing.

Quite often, imo, he works back too far, drops too deep, goes too wide that he gets the ball and has no one to play a constructive pass to because HE is supposed to be the player in the more attacking position ready to receive the pass.

His workrate can be fantastic, but I would question whether it is as intelligent as you describe, or more so over enthusiasm to get on the ball in areas he is ultimately ineffective in.

Also, on a general note - fitness can only ever be assessed relative to what it is you require. By footballing standards a weight lifter would not be fit, but they are fit for the actions required of them. Rooney being capable of running 12km or whatever in a game is of little use, really, if he does that in 70mins and is gassed in the last 20 - or if a high percentage of that running was aimless and unproductive. I'm not sure if all the running he does is required or smart.

In Rooneys case, his fitness might be considered less of an issue if he was quicker to get up to speed after any real lay off or period away from football (for off-season or injury). Remember us having to send him to America to get fit after returning to pre-season fat? He looked AWFUL that pre-season and the injury he picked up was probably a blessing in disguise at the time; giving him a change to regain the fitness he should not have lost in such a way.

homerjay2005

adox wrote: »

Mata has been a huge disappointment and I dont know if he will ever be a success at Utd.

Gary Neville said in January that Mata was "not a United player" and he has been proven right so far you could say.

our club has always played two strikers and thats something that you cannot change in the space of a season or two by bringing in players like Kagawa and/or Mata.

its why i really dont have much time for the number 10 debate or role at the club, as logic shows that we just dont know how to accommodate or play that role apart from a typical 5 man midfield that Fergie used to love.

Mr Alan

adox wrote: »

2

Only one player challenged him iirc.

Only reason is at the time I thought "that was class", then when they showed the replay I realised he didn't really do anything other than beat 1 player.

Mitch Connor

Pro. F wrote: »

You'd also have an effective defensive shape ( 442) that all the players comfortably slot into. And Hererra's workrate on one wing would give Di Maria more licence to wander on the other, with the rest of the midfield shifting across if needed. Also Rooney and Mata seem like good foils for each other. They'd score a shīttonne.

But we have RVP and Falcao to be accommodated so this is probably never going to happen.

Personally I would drop RVP, and Mata - giving Wilson/Falcao a chance to show what they can do.

---

Blind
-Herrera--Di Maria

---

Rooney
-Wilson---Falcao.

Wilson would give us better workrate up top in defensive work, imo, than RVP and a more direct running/pacey option that we lack having sold Welbeck.

That midfield trio with Mata/Rooney in the 10 role looked promising.

Obviously at the moment giving Falcao a chance is proving annoyingly difficult. A lot of whispers that Wilson could be starting against Palace instead of RVP this weekend, but no word on Falcao so don't know if we will be dropping RVP and just continuing with the 433 rather than going back to the 41212

Mitch Connor

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Gary Neville said in January that Mata was "not a United player" and he has been proven right so far you could say.

our club has always played two strikers and thats something that you cannot change in the space of a season or two by bringing in players like Kagawa and/or Mata.

its why i really dont have much time for the number 10 debate or role at the club, as logic shows that we just dont know how to accommodate or play that role apart from a typical 5 man midfield that Fergie used to love.

No, it hasn't - on the basis that the formation in days go by were completely different to what we see now. 442, as we know it, is more a product of the Fergie years than a tradition from year dot.

Also, I find the crux of your argument to be BS, to be honest.

'We' don't know how to use a number 10? We have a manager in charge who has used a number 10 quite a bit over his 20 year managerial career. He just might have an idea how to use on. Whether Moyes, Fergie or Mike Phelan did is utterly irrelevant at this stage.

History may show we have not previously been able to accomodate a number 10, but logic doesn't show we can't make use of one now.

DM_7

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Gary Neville said in January that Mata was "not a United player" and he has been proven right so far you could say.

our club has always played two strikers and thats something that you cannot change in the space of a season or two by bringing in players like Kagawa and/or Mata.

its why i really dont have much time for the number 10 debate or role at the club, as logic shows that we just dont know how to accommodate or play that role apart from a typical 5 man midfield that Fergie used to love.

United brought in 7 first team players, a new manager, coaching staff so the idea the club plays a certain way or needs to play a certain way makes little sense now. Sure it made sense last season when Moyes took over and had the same squad with Fellaini then Mata added. What happened before means little if the people are, in the majority, different people used to other ways of playing.

Pro. F

Mitch Connor wrote: »

He puts himself in position to get the ball a lot, yeah. But i am unconvinced that is always a good thing.

Quite often, imo, he works back too far, drops too deep, goes too wide that he gets the ball and has no one to play a constructive pass to because HE is supposed to be the player in the more attacking position ready to receive the pass.

His workrate can be fantastic, but I would question whether it is as intelligent as you describe, or more so over enthusiasm to get on the ball in areas he is ultimately ineffective in.

Also, on a general note - fitness can only ever be assessed relative to what it is you require. By footballing standards a weight lifter would not be fit, but they are fit for the actions required of them. Rooney being capable of running 12km or whatever in a game is of little use, really, if he does that in 70mins and is gassed in the last 20 - or if a high percentage of that running was aimless and unproductive. I'm not sure if all the running he does is required or smart.

In Rooneys case, his fitness might be considered less of an issue if he was quicker to get up to speed after any real lay off or period away from football (for off-season or injury). Remember us having to send him to America to get fit after returning to pre-season fat? He looked AWFUL that pre-season and the injury he picked up was probably a blessing in disguise at the time; giving him a change to regain the fitness he should not have lost in such a way.

Have a look at his touches on the chalkboard websites. Rooney gets on the ball in the final third more often than any of our other forwards and there's no bias towards him receiving it on the wing any more than the others either. And he doesn't gas early. That higher amount of involvement in the game doesn't come about by chance or enthusiasm, it comes from hard work and intelligent movement.

Yes he has the odd bad game (no more than others), yes he's slow to get back up to speed some times and yes he had to go to America to get fit once. He still has a far higher workrate than any of our other forwards and one that sets him apart from most.

DM_7

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Personally I would drop RVP, and Mata - giving Wilson/Falcao a chance to show what they can do.

---

Blind
-Herrera--Di Maria

---

Rooney
-Wilson---Falcao.

Wilson would give us better workrate up top in defensive work, imo, than RVP and a more direct running/pacey option that we lack having sold Welbeck.

That midfield trio with Mata/Rooney in the 10 role looked promising.

Obviously at the moment giving Falcao a chance is proving annoyingly difficult. A lot of whispers that Wilson could be starting against Palace instead of RVP this weekend, but no word on Falcao so don't know if we will be dropping RVP and just continuing with the 433 rather than going back to the 41212

Assuming Falcao is not fit to start, I would like to see Wilson instead of Januzaj on Saturday over the 4-3-3 from last two games. Keep RVP in the team as the player that can hold the ball and have Wilson, DI Maria, Rooney running off of him or use Wilsons energy/pace to get out to the wider areas around the box and leave room for RVP to make his smart runs in the box and Rooney coming from deeper positions.

---

Blind
-Herrera--Di Maria

---

Rooney
-Wilson

---

RVP.

Mitch Connor

DM_7 wrote: »

Assuming Falcao is not fit to start, I would like to see Wilson instead of Januzaj on Saturday over the 4-3-3 from last two games. Keep RVP in the team as the player that can hold the ball and have Wilson, DI Maria, Rooney running off of him or use Wilsons energy/pace to get out to the wider areas around the box and leave room for RVP to make his smart runs in the box and Rooney coming from deeper positions.

---

Blind
-Herrera--Di Maria

---

Rooney
-Wilson

---

RVP.

Wilson would be wasted kept wide. that kid is INSANE in the box, his predatory skills in the box are what will, hopefully, set him apart as a top talent. Quick feet, positional intelligence and a clinical finisher.

Ordinary man

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Personally I would drop RVP, and Mata - giving Wilson/Falcao a chance to show what they can do.

---

Blind
-Herrera--Di Maria

---

Rooney
-Wilson---Falcao.

Wilson would give us better workrate up top in defensive work, imo, than RVP and a more direct running/pacey option that we lack having sold Welbeck.

That midfield trio with Mata/Rooney in the 10 role looked promising.

Obviously at the moment giving Falcao a chance is proving annoyingly difficult. A lot of whispers that Wilson could be starting against Palace instead of RVP this weekend, but no word on Falcao so don't know if we will be dropping RVP and just continuing with the 433 rather than going back to the 41212

You want to drop fellaini -one of the few in form players atm?

Mitch Connor

Ordinary man wrote: »

You want to drop fellaini -one of the few in form players atm?

Yes, because I think Herrera is a better player than him. Fellaini has done well, but his forward passing isn't to the standard I feel required and I would hope his physicality isn't needed all the time. I think Herrera offers great work rate and is far better on the ball.

Will I Amnt

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Gary Neville said in January that Mata was "not a United player" and he has been proven right so far you could say.

our club has always played two strikers and thats something that you cannot change in the space of a season or two by bringing in players like Kagawa and/or Mata.

its why i really dont have much time for the number 10 debate or role at the club, as logic shows that we just dont know how to accommodate or play that role apart from a typical 5 man midfield that Fergie used to love.

The system played is down to the manager not the name of the club.

Your Airbag

Rooney is superior to Mata in almost every aspect imo. Rooney is still our most important player and should start ahead of Mata when possible.

What G.Nev said was right. Mata is not a typical UTD player. I'd say his days at UTD could be numbered.

I have nothing against Mata but he is a very uninspiring name to see on the team sheet these days. He doesn't track back and do as much as the defensive stuff as he should.

So he must be there for the threat of defense spliitting passes and superior passing but we haven't seen much of that. Could we honestly say he has out passed Rooney or been amazing in that category?

We lose so much as a team when Rooneys out that Mata will be used very rarely when possible.

One thing people were worried about but LVG got 100% right is the elevation of Rooney to captain and their relationship. The press were running with the they won't get along stories but LVG realised straight away how important Rooney is to UTD and made him a focal point of the team and Rooney looks as good as ever for it.

v3ttel

Enjoyed this article about Nani, mainly because it line-ups with my own conclusions about him.

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/9551787/champions-league-manchester-united-winger-nani-impressing-in-lisbon-during-his-loan-spell-with-sporting

Spazdarn

I don't know how you could justify dropping RVP for Wilson, Wilson has showed promise but don't think there's enough minutes on the pitch to prove he'd offer more.

In saying this, I am about to hypocritically suggest Rooney and Falcao up front! (Knowing Falcao hasn't played all that much either)

Just feel both are extremely mobile, and having Mata and Di Maria feeding either would bare fruit...