Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

kryogen

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Are you really that confident that it's the club's fault? What evidence do you have? And please don't say the volume of injuries as this by itself doesn't prove anything. Correlation does not equal causation.

Aye, Arsenal have a shocking injury record also.

Billy86

homerjay2005 wrote: »

there is nothing unprecedented about Jones, Rafael, Evans and Smalling AND BLACKETT AND CARRICK AND SHAW AND ROJO AND MCNAIR being injured (and you could say all at once either for that matter), when its been happening since they all joined the club.

You forgot some.

K4t

Al Capwned wrote: »

Are we now considered a mid-table club in your mind?
Not a chance mate.

Yes, we most certainly are unless we achieve top 4 this season.

Adamocovic wrote: »

I see a lot of talk about Pique wanting to leave Barcelona. Would it be worth a punt to try bring him back?

No. He gets found out regularly at Barca and is more of a luxury defender to have rather than one you would want to rebuild a defence.

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Jim Jones also believed in what he was doing. I have no faith in Van Gaal whatsoever because I base my opinion on what I see - A fortune spent on players and more toxic results than David Moyes managed.

Understood, nevertheless he deserves just as much as a chance as Moyes was given. And there has been improvement in the play, just not enough to justify the transfers yet.

irishfeen

homerjay2005 wrote: »

there is nothing unprecedented about Jones, Rafael, Evans and Smalling being injured (and you could say all at once either for that matter), when its been happening since they all joined the club.

most realistic fans knew this was going to happen yet it seemed that nobody within the club planned adequately for it during the summer. theres fundamental issues with the fitness and injury prevention set up at the club and its been there for 6 years now - its about time that it was sorted once and for all but it looks like the club just dont know how.

You can throw Rojo into that aswell, you are right that during the summer we should have strengthened but I'm sure the club and LVG imagined that they would get injuries but nothing to this extent and we were solid enough during pre season.

As you say there must be something wrong, just look at Chelsea - almost without fail they will have at least the 3 first team players at the back fit while we are just lucky to have 3 fit for a few games in the entire season. You cannot win the PL or go near with the defence we had yesterday.

PhlegmyMoses

Right now, 5 of the 7 injuries we have are impact based, rather than musculature in nature. Hard to see what the club can do about this.

Cantona's Collars

Very poignant piece on Sky now about the footballers who took part in WWI.

The first player ever to score at Old Trafford fought in WWI,took part in a night raid & was never seen again.

irishfeen

zerks wrote: »

Very poignant piece on Sky now about the footballers who took part in WWI.

The first player ever to score at Old Trafford fought in WWI,took part in a night raid & was never seen again.

Don't take this the wrong way zerks but politics have absolutely no place in sport, for some reason Sky and other broadcasters seem to be pushing an agenda year on year.

homerjay2005

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Are you really that confident that it's the club's fault?

yes.

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

What evidence do you have? And please don't say the volume of injuries as this by itself doesn't prove anything. Correlation does not equal causation.

injury crisis after injury crisis is plenty of evidence, no matter how little you want to make of it. once every now and then is normal, but this has been happening since 2009 almost every year.

injuries happen, but we are at 35 since July and vast majority of them are tears or strains. go to any sports clinics, or speak to any decent physio, S & C coach etc etc and they will tell you that repeated injuries like this means that the medical set up is failing. in fact i did a S & C course about 3 years ago and the lad that was giving it said that if your players are getting injured, then you are failing at your job.

anyway, this has been discussed to the death before and people like yourself seem to believe there is nothing that can be done. i hope that LVG will sort it by getting the right people recruited (and apparently one new person has already come in as he is shocked at whats going on).

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Right now, 5 of the 7 injuries we have are impact based, rather than musculature in nature. Hard to see what the club can do about this.

ah thats ok so, only the 30 muscle related injuries so since August....be grand. of the current 7 injuries, only 2 of them happened while playing. not sure how you can say Rafael, Jones, young were impact injuries as you dont know how they happened. Falcao "got a kick" apparently.

Cantona's Collars

irishfeen wrote: »

Don't take this the wrong way zerks but politics have absolutely no place in sport, for some reason Sky and other broadcasters seem to be pushing an agenda year on year.

I just take it at face value considering it's the 100th anniversary.It's just a nice touch that lads who lined out for their clubs and went & died in WWI are remembered.
I don't bother worrying about any political agenda that may be behind it.

Cantona's Collars

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Right now, 5 of the 7 injuries we have are impact based, rather than musculature in nature. Hard to see what the club can do about this.

Get Phil Jones to train on his own.

Cantona's Collars

Hazard moving to Madrid could happen & that may see Bale heading to United:

http://www.le10sport.com/football/mercato/mercato-psg-chelsea-real-madrid-que-doit-faire-eden-hazard-170410

Lukker-

zerks wrote: »

Hazard moving to Madrid could happen & that may see Bale heading to United:

http://www.le10sport.com/football/mercato/mercato-psg-chelsea-real-madrid-que-doit-faire-eden-hazard-170410

I'd hazard a guess that Chelsea would be smarter than selling one of their best players and indirectly strengthening one of their rivals.

Cantona's Collars

Lukker- wrote: »

I'd hazard a guess that Chelsea would be smarter than selling one of their best players and indirectly strengthening one of their rivals.

I reckon Jose would be a bit better at spending £100 million than a couple of other clubs who got high fees for their star players.

Larry Wildman

Nuts102 wrote: »

Nobody he makes up things to go on a ramble all the time.

Not really - I just did a quick scan back over the pages and could see five references to us getting the 3 points. At home. To Crystal Palace.

As for the question raised around the timing of Van Gaal's sacking, it would make sense to wait until the end of the season to pass judgement. If we don't make at least fourth, then he should be sacked. Having said that, my view is that Van Gaal is the wrong man for the job. And every day that's given to the wrong man is a day less down the line for the right man. We were promised another Fergie but what we've been given based on results and cash outlay is another Christian Gross.

Larry Wildman

And just to try and provide a solution, rather than just highlight the problem, I would appoint Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane as my management ticket.

I would task them with rebuilding the club based on the philosophies of Clough and Ferguson.

The Moldy Gowl

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Not really - I just did a quick scan back over the pages and could see five references to us getting the 3 points. At home. To Crystal Palace.

As for the question raised around the timing of Van Gaal's sacking, it would make sense to wait until the end of the season to pass judgement. If we don't make at least fourth, then he should be sacked. Having said that, my view is that Van Gaal is the wrong man for the job. And every day that's given to the wrong man is a day less down the line for the right man. We were promised another Fergie but what we've been given based on results and cash outlay is another Christian Gross.

Probably because we played. Crystal. Palace. At. Home. And. Won.

Absolutely nothing wrong with saying it was a good three points, it was expected. But with Liverpool and man city dropping 2 points, it made a satisfactory 3 points a good three points.

Just because they are crystal palace dosent mean you should show them no respect. They are professional players in the top tier, not headless chickens.

The Moldy Gowl

Larry Wildman wrote: »

And just to try and provide a solution, rather than just highlight the problem, I would appoint Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane as my management ticket.

I would task them with rebuilding the club based on the philosophies of Clough and Ferguson.

Hahahahahaha Jesus ****ing marouane Christ.

There isn't enough gifs in the world for this.

bucketybuck

kryogen wrote: »

yet the style of play is better, the possession play is better, the team is starting to function better as a unit, both going forward and defensively. The progression is there to be seen and like last season when points followed performance, points will follow performance this season

Is it though? Is it really?

Because that horrendous points total didn't come from nowhere, the majority of our players are horribly out of form and playing like ****e. Mata comes in for three games and was rubbish, RVP has been rubbish, Rooney is offering little creatively, Jan has been rubbish, Di Maria is completely off the boil, Shaw has been rubbish until very recently, Rojo average until injured, and gods knows what Falcao would be like if he ever got on the field.

Thats why we talk about blind faith. People keep saying that we are progressing but in fact our extremely expensive squad of players are actually just playing shite. We have two midfielders playing at least passably well, so why is our superstar forward line misfiring so badly?

Cantona's Collars

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Hahahahahaha Jesus ****ing marouane Christ.

There isn't enough gifs in the world for this.

This might do:

Mars Bar

Larry Wildman wrote: »

And just to try and provide a solution, rather than just highlight the problem, I would appoint Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane as my management ticket.

I would task them with rebuilding the club based on the philosophies of Clough and Ferguson.

You have got to be ****ting me?

Robson99

MrMac84 wrote: »

You spelled Rooney wrong

No I didn't. We look very stale and one paced. Its time too shake it up a bit starting with Rooney and Rvp

hufpc8w3adnk65

Mars Bar wrote: »

You have got to be ****ting me?

x2

bad2dabone

Larry Wildman wrote: »

And just to try and provide a solution, rather than just highlight the problem, I would appoint Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane as my management ticket.

I would task them with rebuilding the club based on the philosophies of Clough and Ferguson.

Brilliant, I'd love to see that trainwreck

The Moldy Gowl

zerks wrote: »

This might do:

Let me have my coffee and I'll find one.

Larry Wildman

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Probably because we played. Crystal. Palace. At. Home. And. Won.

Absolutely nothing wrong with saying it was a good three points, it was expected. But with Liverpool and man city dropping 2 points, it made a satisfactory 3 points a good three points.

Just because they are crystal palace dosent mean you should show them no respect. They are professional players in the top tier, not headless chickens.

Dude, getting 3 points in a game that you should win when your rivals drop points in much tougher games is just par (i.e. what should happen, happening).

It's more logical to look at our draw with Chelsea and Liverpool's loss to Chelsea and say "we're plus one".

PhlegmyMoses

Mars Bar wrote: »

You have got to be ****ting me?

Of course he is. Everyone that reads this thread semi-regularly can see that.

PhlegmyMoses

homerjay2005 wrote: »

yes.



injury crisis after injury crisis is plenty of evidence, no matter how little you want to make of it. once every now and then is normal, but this has been happening since 2009 almost every year.

injuries happen, but we are at 35 since July and vast majority of them are tears or strains. go to any sports clinics, or speak to any decent physio, S & C coach etc etc and they will tell you that repeated injuries like this means that the medical set up is failing. in fact i did a S & C course about 3 years ago and the lad that was giving it said that if your players are getting injured, then you are failing at your job.

anyway, this has been discussed to the death before and people like yourself seem to believe there is nothing that can be done. i hope that LVG will sort it by getting the right people recruited (and apparently one new person has already come in as he is shocked at whats going on).



ah thats ok so, only the 30 muscle related injuries so since August....be grand. of the current 7 injuries, only 2 of them happened while playing. not sure how you can say Rafael, Jones, young were impact injuries as you dont know how they happened. Falcao "got a kick" apparently.

So basically, our number of injuries means that there is a problem within the club, some physio who you did a course with said so and the fact that a new guy was brought in suggests that LVG was "shocked at the state of things". So what you're saying is, this is your own personal opinion and you have little to no concrete evidence. Which is what I said. No problem with personal opinions at all, my post just asked if you had any evidence, which you don't.

Also, what are these 30 muscular injuries? Looking at Physio Room, I can't tell the difference between a lot of them. Both Jones and Falcao are down as the exact same taxonomy, which is vague at best. And we were told that Falcao took a kick that caused this.

ericzeking

Speaking of Clough...did ye see Fantasy football club this week? Des Walker was on and had some gems of stories about him, hilarious stuff.

The Moldy Gowl

Larry Wildman wrote: »

Dude, getting 3 points in a game that you should win when your rivals drop points in much tougher games is just par (i.e. what should happen, happening).

It's more logical to look at our draw with Chelsea and Liverpool's loss to Chelsea and say "we're plus one".

You're view is so backwards and niaive, it makes me sad.

You discrediting any win over a team below is just stupid. Disrespecting lower teams in the leauge is stupid. No team is ever gauranteed a win and if every top team or player had that attitude they wouldn't win many games.

bucketybuck

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

So basically, our number of injuries means that there is a problem within the club, some physio who you did a course with said so and the fact that a new guy was brought in suggests that LVG was "shocked at the state of things". So what you're saying is, this is your own personal opinion and you have little to no concrete evidence. Which is what I said. No problem with personal opinions at all, my post just asked if you had any evidence, which you don't.

Sorry, but you simply cannot look at our injury record over the last five years and not come to the conclusion that something is wrong somewhere. Pretending otherwise is just head in the sand stuff.

PhlegmyMoses

bucketybuck wrote: »

Sorry, but you simply cannot look at our injury record over the last five years and not come to the conclusion that something is wrong somewhere. Pretending otherwise is just head in the sand stuff.

Tell me what is wrong then. Something concrete. I'm happy to listen to something that isn't supposition based on volume, which is a fallacy.

Vic Vinegar

I really wish people would stop feeding the madness. He obviously gets a kick out of saying stupid sh1te cos people talk to him then. It's incredibly sad.

ericzeking

Talent and quality wise I believe Rafael, Jones, Smalling and Evans are United quality however they are all injury and suspension prone. It is going to be interesting to see how LVG plays the situation out long term, it may come to pass that we will just have to cut our losses on one or two of them and buy some more reliable players.

If we just had some continuity and reliability at the back we'd have some chance with the attackers we have. We don't necessarily need world beaters just the same 4 on a weekly basis.

I don't think the club is at fault for the injury crisis...some people get injured more than others, they're human beings not machines...we just have most of our more injury prone players at the back.

If it was a systematic thing then surely a long serving player like, say Rooney would have a terrible injury record...he doesn't

Adamocovic

Larry Wildman wrote: »

And just to try and provide a solution, rather than just highlight the problem, I would appoint Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane as my management ticket.

I would task them with rebuilding the club based on the philosophies of Clough and Ferguson.

kryogen

bucketybuck wrote: »

Is it though? Is it really?

Because that horrendous points total didn't come from nowhere

I just want to deal with this point.

Yes it is improving, and it is also showing in the points, the last 6 games we have won 3 (West Ham, Everton and Palace) we have drawn 2 (West Brom and Chelsea) and we have lost 1 (City)

So that is 11 points from 18 with a considerably tougher schedule, Everton, West Brom away (only lost once at home) Chelsea and City, not to mention a riding high West Ham.

The first 5 games of the season we won 1 (QP****ingR), drew 2 and lost 2

Return of 5 points from 15.

If you can't spot an improvement from the opening series of games to the latest thats really your own problem. The team has been playing better and has been picking up more points. That is improvement and it has happened against tougher opponents.

So yes, it is improving, and the horrendous points total comes from the awful start to the season rather then a continuing trend of ****ty performance and ****ty results.

ericzeking

Larry is wild...like really wild... but both Keane and O'Neill have been mentioned for the United job in the past.

#justsaying
#inlvgwetrust

kryogen

Mars Bar wrote: »

You have got to be ****ting me?

No, I'm sure its a genuine opinion. Of course MON and Keane have a better track record sure, a better pedigree, they are doing very well with Villa also, the form team in the league you could say.

Bollix, everyone who reads the thread knows exactly what that post is for.

Will I Amnt

O'Neill and Keane could be a big help in getting Cattermole with their Sunderland connections.

Bridge93

kryogen wrote: »

I just want to deal with this point.

Yes it is improving, and it is also showing in the points, the last 6 games we have won 3 (West Ham, Everton and Palace) we have drawn 2 (West Brom and Chelsea) and we have lost 1 (City)

So that is 11 points from 18 with a considerably tougher schedule, Everton, West Brom away (only lost once at home) Chelsea and City, not to mention a riding high West Ham.

The first 5 games of the season we won 1 (QP****ingR), drew 2 and lost 2

Return of 5 points from 15.

If you can't spot an improvement from the opening series of games to the latest thats really your own problem. The team has been playing better and has been picking up more points. That is improvement and it has happened against tougher opponents.

So yes, it is improving, and the horrendous points total comes from the awful start to the season rather then a continuing trend of ****ty performance and ****ty results.

West Brom have also only won one home league game which was Burnley. Everton have only won 2 away games one of which was West Brom the other actually Burnley. Everton were also quite depleted at OT.
But I do agree things are improving, stats though can be fixed to suit anyones argument as Larry is showing.

J. Marston

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Hahahahahaha Jesus ****ing marouane Christ.

There isn't enough gifs in the world for this.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't try.

Larry Wildman wrote: »

And just to try and provide a solution, rather than just highlight the problem, I would appoint Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane as my management ticket.

I would task them with rebuilding the club based on the philosophies of Clough and Ferguson.

bucketybuck

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Tell me what is wrong then. Something concrete. I'm happy to listen to something that isn't supposition based on volume, which is a fallacy.

I don't work for the club, you aren't making any sort of point by asking me to provide evidence of what the support staff are doing whether it be right or wrong. There is no possible way for me to provide that concrete evidence, as everybody knows full well so your request is rather pointless.

The fact still remains, if you look at our injury record and wish to just shrug your shoulders and claim coincidence then thats your look out, but it is rather myopic.

Billy86

There, we're done. Now let's all just get on with our lives and pretend this never happened.

kryogen

Bridge93 wrote: »

West Brom have also only won one home league game which was Burnley. Everton have only won 2 away games one of which was West Brom the other actually Burnley. Everton were also quite depleted at OT.
But I do agree things are improving, stats though can be fixed to suit anyones argument as Larry is showing.

West Brom only winning one doesn't show that it was any easier to beat them though They had still only been beaten there once.

Your main point, that stats can be manipulated to suit a lot of things I agree with in principle, but it is a pretty simple way to prove that things are actually improving in relation to points, and you use your eyes to see that overall team performance is improved.

kryogen

bucketybuck wrote: »

I don't work for the club, you aren't making any sort of point by asking me to provide evidence of what the support staff are doing whether it be right or wrong. There is no possible way for me to provide that concrete evidence, as everybody knows full well so your request is rather pointless.

The fact still remains, if you look at our injury record and wish to just shrug your shoulders and claim coincidence then thats your look out, but it is rather myopic.

You could throw up some comparisons to other clubs in England and Europe to support or dispel the argument though.

Bridge93

kryogen wrote: »

West Brom only winning one doesn't show that it was any easier to beat them though They had still only been beaten there once.

Your main point, that stats can be manipulated to suit a lot of things I agree with in principle, but it is a pretty simple way to prove that things are actually improving in relation to points, and you use your eyes to see that overall team performance is improved.

Well they had only played 3 home games when Utd arrived. Beat Burnley, drew with sunderland and lost to Everton. Drawn with Palace since and lost to Newcastle. Poor results against average enough teams.
Thats what Im thinking. Those calling for Van Gaal based on the numbers need to use their eyes.

Adamocovic

Billy86 wrote: »

There, we're done. Now let's all just get on with our lives and pretend this never happened.

I just want to add



Ok I'm done.

kryogen

Bridge93 wrote: »

Thats what Im thinking. Those calling for Van Gaal based on the numbers need to use their eyes.

To my knowledge there is no genuine poster actually calling for his head, and criticism is fine, I would defend a lot of things, but he is deserving of criticism of course, he has not been perfect. There are two sides and both have valid arguments. Anyone calling for him to be sacked right now is best just ignored, you cannot reason with everyone.

Edit: To answer your edit, that they had only played 3 before us is irrelevant, their home form over the course of the season will show how strong they will prove to be there

PhlegmyMoses

bucketybuck wrote: »

I don't work for the club, you aren't making any sort of point by asking me to provide evidence of what the support staff are doing whether it be right or wrong. There is no possible way for me to provide that concrete evidence, as everybody knows full well so your request is rather pointless.

The fact still remains, if you look at our injury record and wish to just shrug your shoulders and claim coincidence then thats your look out, but it is rather myopic.

Actually, I am neutral in this. I have no real opinion either way because the only fact we have is that a decent amount of our players get injured. You are possibly right, but you are also possibly wrong. You have done no research into this past looking at the volume of injuries and you have made a judgement on the situation nonetheless. Pointing at numbers and trying to discredit what I'm saying as being myopic or that there is no other possible viewpoint is a ridiculous way to continue a discussion and is the very definition of myopia.

PhlegmyMoses

kryogen wrote: »

You could throw up some comparisons to other clubs in England and Europe to support or dispel the argument though.

And even then, all that would tell us is that our players get injured more than some but less than others. It still doesn't give us any real insight into why this might be.

It's fine to hold an opinion based on little more than supposition. Just don't try to argue that such an opinion has any real merit with any sort of confidence.

The Moldy Gowl

Larry, why would keane and o Neil be a better fit than lvg?

Your thing about lvg is that he is a spoofer, but what makes the other 2, not spoofers?

I'm interested in your madness and wish to subscribe to it.