Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

shadowcomplex

beno619 wrote: »

I dont disagree about poor management but these players were found out badly at the World Cup, making poor individual mistake.

Rooney has had good periods and poor periods for England, Sterling has mostly been good. Id put Sturridge in the second tier of top forwards in world football with Benzema & Higuain ect like Coleman, still have a bit to prove.

Benzema is a first tier top forward

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

Your struggling here and making points by twisting logic.

Its 514m they could have used to serivce there own interests or to line there own pockets. They have taken money out already for their own needs as you already pointed out. Money from UTD revenue, the club they own so yes they are helping us buy players with cash they could refuse us or divert elsewhere.

Trying to say they had no claim or ownership on the 514m biased against them of the highest order. Its their club, their debt, their revenue to use as they want. You are quick to point out when they take money out of the clun revenue for their own use but try to say them taking club revenue and using it on transfers is as good as them not spending their own cash when it could easily be just for that.

They used 514m to buy us players that won us titles. Trying to spin it as if they had nothing invested in that chunk of cash is bs.

You'll say and old thing contradicting yourself to make a point. Thats laughable.

There are restrictions on the money they can take from the club under the debt covenants, and the bond prospectus outlines how club revenue will be spent so they have to follow that and can't just take it out for themselves instead.

I did not spin it as if they had nothing invested in that transfer kitty. It being their company obviously means they have invested in it. I said they did not spend that money, a company they invested in spent that money. That is quite different.

beno619

keane2097 wrote: »

Coleman is miles ahead of Rafael in every aspect. Better attacker, better defender, more reliable, bigger, faster, stronger, whatever you're having. If you could only have one or the other in your squad you would be an outright fool to pick Rafael.

Hyperbole is the use of exaggeration as a rhetorical device or figure of speech. It may be used to evoke strong feelings or to create a strong impression, but is not meant to be taken literally.

Hyperboles are comparisons, like similes and metaphors, but are extravagant and even ridiculous

Yeah so..

CR 7

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Any of you reckon there's any truth to the following rumours doing the rounds

• De Gea rejects new contract and wants Real Madrid switch
• Vidic could return to United
• Herrera could be sold in January
• Real Madrid prepared to let Bale join ManUtd but want Di Maria and Cash in Return

De Gea

Varane Ramos
Pepe Vidic

Herrera Cruise

Di Maria Cash Ronaldo

Chicharito

beno619

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Benzema is a first tier top forward

You very rarely here his name mentioned in those conversations, its certainly debatable.

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

No im fairly sure it does in fact mean he's proven, whether Coleman has had a chance or not. Im not sure how anyone could argue that at Rafael is not more proven and has more top level experience

You are talking about a handful of games against Madrid, Barca and Bayern. Rafael has not done near enough in those games to prove that he is someohow better than Coleman.

beno619 wrote: »

I dont disagree about poor management but these players were found out badly at the World Cup, making poor individual mistake.

Sample size. If those players really weren't up to the standard required in international football then they'd also come up short when playing in the PL, a higher standard of competition.

beno619 wrote: »

Rooney has had good periods and poor periods for England, Sterling has mostly been good. Id put Sturridge in the second tier of top forwards in world football with Benzema & Higuain ect like Coleman, still have a bit to prove.

If you are putting Coleman in the same tier of quality as Benzema, Sturridge and Higuain then I agree. How you think Rafael rates higher than them though still baffles me.

The Moldy Gowl

shadowcomplex wrote: »

your a dope

Why? For not putting thought into reducukous rumours?

Did you just make them up?

Billy86

I was vocally against us going so heavily for Baines last season, and to be honest I wouldn't go breaking the bank for Coleman either - but he is far better than Baines. Both he and Rafael are very good players and given the option for a straight swap, no strings attached, I would consider it. But in the next two windows we need to focus on our CBs and depth in midfield most of all... and I would not spend the money required for Coleman when he is two years older than Rafael and not really much better or much worse. That said, if Rafael got ran over by a joyriding tractor tomorrow, he would definitely be one of the first names I would want on a shortlist of replacements.

Man Utd fans have an awful habit of wanting to scapegoat certain players for whatever reason, often without much basis (see: Rio Ferdinand's first few years here) - Welbeck, Carrick and Rafael being the most recent examples of this. I guess it's better than being deluded that every player is a world beater that Arsenal fans tend to be more prone to, though. Still, there is a strange habit of gladly ignoring anything and everything positive they do and trying to hammer on endlessly over any little mistakes they make. The fact is Rafael was poor last season (as was almost everyone), and his injury issues continue to be a worry, but when healthy he has largely been very good this season and in his first few years he also showed a lot of promise. There certainly are not a lot of RBs in the world I would take over him, factoring in age, current ability and potential.

Just took a quick look on Squawka and so far this season per 90 minutes Rafael is doing better on tackles won, interceptions, blocks and clearances made. Rafael has been fouled more while they are about neck and neck on fouls committed (Coleman making 0.56 per games, Rafael 0.52) and pass completion (87% for Coleman, 86% for Rafael). Both are on one assist, Coleman has 2 goals, and is creating more chances per game and key passes, while Rafael is ahead on both forwards and backwards passes made per game. Also for anyone bringing up our defensive issues this year, Everton have conceded the 5th most goals in the league so far this season.

Looking at last season also Rafael was ahead once again in tackles won, interceptions, blocks and clearances made. He made more fouls per 90 minutes than Coleman but again was getting fouled more/drawing more fouls himself. Coleman was more accurate passing the ball, but he was passing backwards more than Rafael, and Rafael was passing forwards more than he was. Of course Coleman had six goals to Rafael's 0 (although he had over twice the number of minutes playing) and more key passes and chances created per match (though not by as wide a margin as some might think), while they had the same number of assists per 90 minutes.

TLDR; there's really not a whole lot between them. Rafael has done more defensively in the last year and a bit, while Coleman has done more going forward and would appear to be given more licence to attack in Martinez's set up.

kryogen

Have you actually looked into the Glazers, their other business interests, practices, sports teams, what fans think of them?

Your Airbag wrote: »

I've heard a couple of posters say the Glazers don't give a **** about the club only their money lately.

This seems to follow the sterotype that every top dog in a suit just cares about the bottom line and not the people.

I have worked with a few of business men who deal with high figure sums and hiring and firing and this view that they are all cold and uncaring is just a sterotype. Sure they are some guys like that but in general business men do care and want success for themeselves, the company and employess.

Its a very biased view to think that the Glazers don't care about the club and team and have no emotinal connection to the on pitch success.

They have spent £514m on players since taking over. Fergie said they were always great to go too. Fergie is not one to hold back. They respected his opinion and appointed Moyes on his request even though it turned out to be a mistake and they may have had other options in mind. They respected the managers wishes.

I don't buy this opinion that they don't give a toss aslong as they cash in. Do you honestly think they don't care that the team is doing badly? that they don't get the same buzz from a good preformace or goal? that they have little emotional connection to the club, the club their father took over and steered towards success before he died?

If anything they have a big emotional investment. I don't think for a second that if things were going badly on the pitch and the fans were unhappy but the cash was flowing in that they would'nt care.

beno619

Pro. F wrote: »

You are talking about a handful of games against Madrid, Barca and Bayern. Rafael has not done near enough in those games to prove that he is someohow better than Coleman.

Yet Coleman having one great season where he happened to scores a few goals. While also never playing the standard of opposition in big games and occasions that Rafa has somehow makes him better ?

Like I said Coleman is the one with everything to prove not Rafa. Its a huge bias based on his nationality because I certainly havnt been given any decent evidence/reasons for this belief.

Sample size. If those players really weren't up to the standard required in international football then they'd also come up short when playing in the PL, a higher standard of competition.

There are plenty of good players in the PL doesnt mean thier good enough for United and for a lot of them their ceiling is Everton/Spurs and there's no shame in that.

If you are putting Coleman in the same tier of quality as Benzema, Sturridge and Higuain then I agree. How you think Rafael rates higher than them though still baffles me.

I believe on his day he's one of the best in the world and Coleman is a level below. Quite simple.

I really like Coleman btw and hope he gets a chance to prove himself at a top club, ive just taken of the rose tinted glasses. Coleman is undeniably less injury prone than Rafa :pac:

kryogen

beno619 wrote: »

You very rarely here his name mentioned in those conversations, its certainly debatable.

Benzema suffers from being at a club with someone like Ronaldo really, he is top class and has been for a while now, he had an iffy spell after his initial burst on to the scene but he is a fantastic player imo

edgecutter

I don't know why there is even a discussion on Coleman and Rafael here. I love Rafael, but he simply can't be relied upon to stay injury free through the entire season. We need a new right back at the club that can avoid the picking up niggling injuries.

beno619

Billy86 wrote: »

TLDR; there's really not a whole lot between them. Rafael has done more defensively in the last year and a bit, while Coleman has done more going forward and would appear to be given more licence to attack in Martinez's set up.

Great post.

I've given reasons why I think Rafa is better but I think you've covered the whole topic nicely.

beno619

kryogen wrote: »

Benzema suffers from being at a club with someone like Ronaldo really, he is top class and has been for a while now, he had an iffy spell after his initial burst on to the scene but he is a fantastic player imo

Wonderful player,hasn't really shown up in big games enough in my opinion.
When the chips are down would you take him over RVP(fit), Rooney, Aguero, Falcao(fit) ?

I think Zlatan is an even bigger waste of genius but that another conversation all together

adox

shadowcomplex wrote: »

Any of you reckon there's any truth to the following rumours doing the rounds

• De Gea rejects new contract and wants Real Madrid switch
• Vidic could return to United
• Herrera could be sold in January
• Real Madrid prepared to let Bale join ManUtd but want Di Maria and Cash in Return

No.
No.
No.
No.

Genuine question, where are these rumours doing the rounds?
They all sound ridiculous.

Liam McPoyle

adox wrote: »

No.
No.
No.
No.

Genuine question, where are these rumours doing the rounds?
They all sound ridiculous.

Planet shadowcomplex.

Where nothing is as it seems.

Lord TSC

Business Cat wrote: »

Planet shadowcomplex.

Where nothing is as it seems.

Guys, shadowcomplex can't defend himself here cause he's picked up a yellow and subsequent ban. Move on and drop it.

Liam O

I don't think it can be overestimated how much better United would have been last season and this season with Coleman in the team every week. Now that there is quality at LB and in the centre of midfield RB is the weakest position in the entire squad. 1 natural player there and he's injured over half the time. The amount of extra points won with him over Smalling or Jones last season would have been quite high imo.

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

Yet Coleman having one great season where he happened to scores a few goals. While also never playing the standard of opposition in big games and occasions that Rafa has somehow makes him better ?

Like I said Coleman is the one with everything to prove not Rafa. Its a huge bias based on his nationality because I certainly havnt been given any decent evidence/reasons for this belief.

I think you're quite wrong with the one season reference. Coleman has been doing it at Everton for a few years now.

Coleman's performances against the top PL teams shows just as much as Rafael's handful of appearances against the few top non PL teams.

Anyway all this talk of what the two have proven is a red hearing. If we can't judge a player's ability by watching him play against the top EPL teams then we are just unable to judge players.

beno619 wrote: »

There are plenty of good players in the PL doesnt mean thier good enough for United and for a lot of them their ceiling is Everton/Spurs and there's no shame in that.

I believe on his day he's one of the best in the world and Coleman is a level below. Quite simple.

I really like Coleman btw and hope he gets a chance to prove himself at a top club, ive just taken of the rose tinted glasses. Coleman is undeniably less injury prone than Rafa

Another unnecessary restriction on judging players. Now we can't judge a player unless he's playing at a top club.

If we were to judge players like you are proposing then we would be just counting up the games they have played for and against whatever standard of team.

beno619

Pro. F wrote: »

I think you're quite wrong with the one season reference. Coleman has been doing it at Everton for a few years now.

Coleman's performances against the top PL teams shows just as much as Rafael's handful of appearances against the few top non PL teams.

Anyway all this talk of what the two have proven is a red hearing. If we can't judge a player's ability by watching him play against the top EPL teams then we are just unable to judge players.

He's done no more than Rafa in the PL with regards to the top teams but is also proven in the CL.]

Of course we can judge players but im trying to provide facts to back up my argument, your argument seems highly opinionated. Lots of players make the jump to a top club and fail so as of yet Coleman has everything to prove.

Another unnecessary restriction on judging players. Now we can't judge a player unless he's playing at a top club.

If we were to judge players like you are proposing then we would be just counting up the games they have played for and against whatever standard of team.

Nope we can judge him but playing for Everton vs United is a completely different beast as you well know.

You believe Coleman is better, facts and Rafa's trophy cabinet say different.

RobertKK

I just want to say I read the rumours that shadowcomplex mentioned.

De Gea looks destined to join Real Madrid at some stage, just hopefully not anytime soon.
I can't see Vidic returning.
I read that LVG doesn't believe Herrera is right for the team, how true, I don't know.
We are getting linked a lot with Bale, maybe due to the talk that United is suppose to have bid for him last year and with Isco playing so well, I don't believe the Di Maria bit that some have put with that story but Gareth Bale ...yes, it is possible but don't think so in January.

The thing is one would have been seen as a bit deluded if they said Falcao and Di Maria would be playing for United this season.
So at this stage, who knows.

kryogen

Why do you think a player with strong Atletico connections would be destined for Real?

I am not saying it won't happen, just wouldn't say he is destined to end up there or anything

IncognitoMan

Barcelona is the club i have always been most fearful of coming looking for De Gea but hopefully Ter Stegen does well for them and we should have no problem.

Vic Vinegar

kryogen wrote: »

Why do you think a player with strong Atletico connections would be destined for Real?

I am not saying it won't happen, just wouldn't say he is destined to end up there or anything

True, he's a hero in Atletico's fans eyes. He seems like a loyal type and is more likely to end up going back there instead of Real Madrid imo.

His agent is having a bit of a tiff with Real too is he not? that could have an effect also.

beno619

Bombleswizzum wrote:

His agent is having a bit of a tiff with Real too is he not? that could have an effect also.

I'd like to know more about this ?

I really wish the club would hurry up and sort out his contract !

Your Airbag

Pro. F wrote: »

There are restrictions on the money they can take from the club under the debt covenants, and the bond prospectus outlines how club revenue will be spent so they have to follow that and can't just take it out for themselves instead.

I did not spin it as if they had nothing invested in that transfer kitty. It being their company obviously means they have invested in it. I said they did not spend that money, a company they invested in spent that money. That is quite different.

You quite clearly did try to spin it that way. See below

Pro. F wrote: »

Re bold: The Glazers have not spent a penny on players. All player purchases, wages and club investments have been paid for with club revenue.

"Not spent a penny on players" is quite a definitvie spin.

514M is a lot spent that could have been filtered elsewhere overtime.

As usual though you'd rather back peddle on your original point, drag an argument out and get the last word in time and time again rather then admit your mistake but its there for all to see.

jebus84

beno619 wrote: »

I'd like to know more about this ?

Jorge Mendes is his agent and things arnt the best their over di maria and falcao not joining

Will I Amnt

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Who's better, Rafael or Coleman?

Where would we finish in the league with this team?

Dea Gayo
Coleman - Pikachu - Joe 90 - M Bison
Captain Planet
Mozart - Tarzan - Jonny Vegas
Hitler - Ray D'Arcy

I thought this was so funny I tried to explain it to the girlfriend, she laughed!

The Moldy Gowl

Those rumours are a load of bollox.

Herrera was kept out of the team by Fellaini- he must be moving.

Bale/di Maria- would be so stupid. Only linked because he is British.

De gea- media thinks any player who is spainish wants to go back to Spain. Same as bale. Also he hurt his finger so making up a story to report along with the finger to Make the piece newsworthy.

jebus84

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Those rumours are a load of bollox.

Herrera was kept out of the team by Fellaini- he must be moving.

Bale/di Maria- would be so stupid. Only linked because he is British.

De gea- media thinks any player who is spainish wants to go back to Spain. Same as bale. Also he hurt his finger so making up a story to report along with the finger to Make the piece newsworthy.

Always a slow news week during internationals

Cantona's Collars

Sunday paper gossip: Moyes wants to sign Young,Atletico want Mata.

LVG has sent scouts to watch Anderson Talisca and is looking at Fabian Schar,Villa are looking for a replacement for Vlaar who they expect to join us.

Pro. F

Your Airbag wrote: »

You quite clearly did try to spin it that way. See below

"Not spent a penny on players" is quite a definitvie spin.

514M is a lot spent that could have been filtered elsewhere overtime.

Investing in a company and then allowing the company to keep conducting business is not the same thing as spending your own money on the business' purchases.

Your Airbag wrote: »

As usual though you'd rather back peddle on your original point, drag an argument out and get the last word in time and time again rather then admit your mistake but its there for all to see.

I really am the root of all evil.

Hococop

zerks wrote: »

Sunday paper gossip: Moyes wants to sign Young,Atletico want Mata.

LVG has sent scouts to watch Anderson Talisca and is looking at Fabian Schar,Villa are looking for a replacement for Vlaar who they expect to join us.

These reports are somewhat believable but I'd still be wary

Headshot

Pro. F wrote: »

I really am the root of all evil.

That's the first step in the road to recovery, being honest with yourself.

So proud of you Pro lol

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

He's done no more than Rafa in the PL with regards to the top teams but is also proven in the CL.

Of course we can judge players but im trying to provide facts to back up my argument, your argument seems highly opinionated. Lots of players make the jump to a top club and fail so as of yet Coleman has everything to prove.

Nope we can judge him but playing for Everton vs United is a completely different beast as you well know.

You believe Coleman is better, facts and Rafa's trophy cabinet say different.

By your logic it would be impossible to ever say that a player at Everton was better than a player starting for United because the Everton player has not yet proven he can do it at United. That is bollocks.

You have used non facts to back up your argument. Number of tackles, blocks and interceptions does not tell you who is the better defender. There's no stat to tell you how many times the defender averted danger through reading of the game or good positioning.

Trophies won is also a stupid argument for obvious reasons.

The Moldy Gowl

Found out where the herrara moving story was from

The sport bible. They mention his injury then say he has been on the bench and failed to impress and will leave for 19 million.

Jaysus, why do people even believe click bait stuff like that.

Backstreet Moyes

Pro. F wrote: »

By your logic it would be impossible to ever say that a player at Everton was better than a player starting for United because the Everton player has not yet proven he can do it at United. That is bollocks.

You have used non facts to back up your argument. Number of tackles, blocks and interceptions does not tell you who is the better defender. There's no stat to tell you how many times the defender averted danger through reading of the game or good positioning.

Trophies won is also a stupid argument for obvious reasons.

The trophies part i agree with. Have you stats on the other things you mentioned that would be interesting.

I am not getting involved in an argument. I think Coleman is overrated not a patch on Ivanovic or Zabaleta and Rafael is made of glass.

Liam O

Nuts102 wrote: »

The trophies part i agree with. Have you stats on the other things you mentioned that would be interesting.

I am not getting involved in an argument. I think Coleman is overrated not a patch on Ivanovic or Zabaleta and Rafael is made of glass.

Coleman who scores more and assists more than all 3 of them is the overrated one? Not sure I follow the logic. He was excellent defensively last night too. I always thought Zabaleta would be a better DM than RB and Ivanovic isn't even the best RB at Chelsea imo.

beno619

Pro. F wrote:

You have used non facts to back up your argument. Number of tackles, blocks and interceptions does not tell you who is the better defender. There's no stat to tell you how many times the defender averted danger through reading of the game or good positioning.

All you've done is shout down facts and dismiss the only really applicable criteria to judge two simalar players on.

You still haven't put up any decent points pro Coleman apart from the fact you prefer him.

What has Coleman done to prove he's better that Rafa ?

Nalz

beno619 wrote: »

What has Coleman done to prove he's better that Rafa ?

Sounder defensively
More goals
More assists

Me thinks ...

Deiseboy01

Trilla wrote: »

Sounder defensively
More goals
More assists

Me thinks ...

Less likely to get sent off.

Can play five games in a row without needing to be rebuilt.

homerjay2005

Thornley and Strudwick have been pulled from the England medical team by Van Gaal as of this week.

Another sign hopefully that the massive shakeup thats needed in our fitness department is finally happening.

beno619

Trilla wrote:

Sounder defensively More goals More assists

Rafa is better defensively according to stats posted yesterday.
Both on one a assist I beleive this season as well.
One freak season of goal scoring doesn't quite cut it if you ask me.

Deiseboy01 wrote:

Less likely to get sent off.

Can you draw up some stats to prove this or is it typical nonsense you hear about Rafa based on a sending off 4 years ago ?

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

All you've done is shout down facts and dismiss the only really applicable criteria to judge two simalar players on.

You still haven't put up any decent points pro Coleman apart from the fact you prefer him.

What has Coleman done to prove he's better that Rafa ?

Watching them play is the only really applicable criteria to form an opinion on which player is better. Your "facts" are the weakest and most tangential imformation we have for comparing two defenders.

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

Can you draw up some stats to prove this or is it typical nonsense you hear about Rafa based on a sending off 4 years ago ?

That's something that is recorded. Rafael has more cards than Coleman in all three seasons available on Squawka.

beno619

Pro. F wrote:

Watching them play is the only really applicable criteria to form an opinion on which player is better. Your "facts" are the weakest and most tangential imformation we have for comparing two defenders.

Nope, that's just an opinion mate. Facts and stats can strengthen an argument which you have failed to do.

Pro. F wrote:

That's something that is recorded. Rafael has more cards than Coleman in all three seasons available on Squawka.

Yep Rafa one sending off in that period, "loose cannon".

Adamocovic

On the whole Rafael/Coleman thing going on here it really does depend on the individuals opinion. Obviously Coleman being names in SkySports team of the year and PFA player of the year along with Evertons supporters and players of the year would suggest that a lot of people rank him higher than Rafael.

Honestly though that it just opinion based. Personally I prefer Coleman, since his 2010/2011 season I really wanted him to join us, quick player with skill and defensively good too. Can make the odd mistake but most do. It is hard to take into account stats when comparing defenders, goals conceded and cards depend a lot on how the rest of the team does, it is probably better just to compare their style of play.

Rafael is good going forward too but I suppose my biggest concern on him is he has averaged something like 14/15 games a season in the league for us since joining and Coleman on the other hand 21 games a season. I know it may not seem much of a difference but 6-7 games difference without your first choice RB can be a big thing. This season alone I think Coleman has played 5 more games than him. I know injuries are hard to predict and Rafael could prove me wrong but he does have a history of picking up knocks. In his favour though he is the younger of the two and if he stays fit could get into some good form.

Pro. F

beno619 wrote: »

Nope, that's just an opinion mate. Facts and stats can strengthen an argument which you have failed to do.

Indeed they can. But as I've pointed out, the defensive stats avaialable do not tell half the picture of a defender's game, and if you were to go on which teams they play for you would never be able to spot a better player playing for a smaller club.

beno619 wrote: »

Yep Rafa one sending off in that period, "loose cannon".

So are yellow cards not important now?

Adamocovic

Back to more United talk is it expected that Jones, Evans, Falcao and Rafael are all going to be fit by next weekend?

beno619

Pro. F wrote:

Indeed they can. But as I've pointed out, the defensive stats avaialable do not tell half the picture of a defender's game, and if you were to go on which teams they play for you would never be able to spot a better player playing for a smaller club.

So basically it's just opinion which makes this back and forward pointless.

Pro. F wrote:

So are yellow cards not important now?

Not when the argument being put forward that one player is a walking red card, defenders will always pick up yellows.