Renting and water charges

Graham

Gatling wrote: »

No its not saying its scare mongering just to totally dismiss it is wrong ,personally i believe it wouldn't take much discussion with the powers that be to allow it in the future

Regardless of what you personally believe, it is complete scare mongering. There is no legislation to support this and there has been no suggestion that it's going to happen.

davo10

Gatling wrote: »

So those whom are most vulnerable can be directly targeted regardless of if they choose to or not to sign up ,

Only those who do not pay are targeted by all service providers, again that includes electricity and phone. You do not have to sign up if you do not want to, but if you don't, you don't get your allowance, the bill still comes to your home if you own it and landlords will deduct it from your deposit if you are a tenant.

You can argue about the social injustice if having to pay for water, and the injustice of those with low income having to pay, but the fact is that it is a utility that each user has control over, we are all responsible for the amount we use and as it is metered, we are consequently responsible for paying for that amount. We are not the only country to have water charges, in fact if I heard correctly on one of the prime time programmes, we are one of the few that don't.

Dark Phoenix

I rent the house I live in and the pack came to the house. I don;t mind paying the charges however I don't agree with irish water having my PPSN - especially since when I went to renew my driver licence recently the place refused to let me until i provided proof of the PPSN that was already on my licence. So how can the govt treat this information as so important and confidential one minute and then just expect it to be given to a third party for water charges? If I choose to move house I dont want to be worried that i will still be charged for this house afetrwards because irish water have my PPSN attached to it!

Anyone know what happens if I fill in the form without PPS, send in it with my bank details etc? also do you have to pay by direct debit or can you have them invoice you and pay it after by a payment method of choice?

Graham

Dark Phoenix wrote: »

Anyone know what happens if I fill in the form without PPS?

You won't receive your allowance so your water bill will be almost twice what it otherwise would have been.

Gatling

Graham wrote: »

You won't receive your allowance so your water bill will be almost twice what it otherwise would have been.

that's not exactly true ,where does it say that you will pay twice the cost

davo10

Gatling wrote: »

that's not exactly true ,where does it say that you will pay twice the cost

If you don't sign up, you don't get the allowance, therefore you pay from the first drop used.

delahuntv

Gatling wrote: »

that's not exactly true ,where does it say that you will pay twice the cost

It doesn't. You don;t pay twice the cost, you just pay for every drop you use.

I really don't see the issue of pps numbers at all. The Indo and its hysterical headlines and the usual opposition are making people think its an issue.

You give your pps number to so many people over the years for various things - landlords, employers, banks, social welfare etc etc.

Where's the issue?

If you want 30,000 litres of free water and waste water, give the pps number, if you don't, then don't give it. It really is as simple as that. The choice is entirely yours.

Gatling

davo10 wrote: »

If you don't sign up, you don't get the allowance, therefore you pay from the first drop used.

Not correct either ,

The allowences are only given to those who pay there bills in a timely manner ,

Which i get the feeling that from that statement that those who fall behind or get into arrears could well looses there allowence either way

Graham

Gatling wrote: »

Not correct either ,

The allowences are only given to those who pay there bills in a timely manner ,

Which i get the feeling that from that statement that those who fall behind or get into arrears could well looses there allowence either way

Source?

pc7

As a landlord I find it ridiculous that if my tenant won't give me their details to register (or won't register themselves) that I am then liable for any charges. I've emailed IW to get more information on this.

Gatling

Graham wrote: »

Source?

I'll link when I get to a desk

Paulownia

I just sent the pack on to the tenant, I assumed that the tenant was supposed to fill it in , not me!
It is a utility like any other. my tenants do not expect me to fill the oil tank or pay the phone bill.
i'm a bit mystified as to why people did not want to give their pps numbers, I filled it in on the form for my own home. I have another house with a well and a septic tank , they did not require a pps number with that application.
You need a pps number to buy post office bonds now, why should it be a secret?

pc7

Paulownia wrote: »

I just sent the pack on to the tenant, I assumed that the tenant was supposed to fill it in , not me!
It is a utility like any other. my tenants do not expect me to fill the oil tank or pay the phone bill.
?

I would ask them to confirm or show you the registration confirmation as if they don't register you will be billed and liable.

sunshine and showers

The LL should be sending the pack on to their tenant to fill in. Also, there is no big "secret" around PPSNs and landlords. OP, your LL should already have your PPS numbers to have registered you with the PRTB.

I tend to agree with other posters - your PPSN is only a number to another person. The same way someone finding out your bank account number is of absolutely no benefit to them.

Gatling

Graham wrote: »

Source?

Sorry for the delay .from the citizen advice website

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/water_services/water_charges.html

Scroll to Question K and Answer K .

davo10

Gatling wrote: »

Not correct either ,

The allowences are only given to those who pay there bills in a timely manner ,

Which i get the feeling that from that statement that those who fall behind or get into arrears could well looses there allowence either way

I think you are putting the cart before the ass. You get your initial yearly allowance when you sign up and thereafter each year if you pay in time. If you don't pay on time, it would seem they don't give you your allowance in the second year and charge you for all water used. The answer for question K also refers the reader to question C.

Another good reason to pay and on time.

Graham

Gatling wrote: »

Sorry for the delay .from the citizen advice website

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/environment/water_services/water_charges.html

Scroll to Question K and Answer K .

Your original statement is half right

The allowances are given to everyone who is entitled and who has properly registered.

The allowances can be withdrawn if a customer fails to adhere to the standard payment terms or payment arrangement plans.

18. As per the Government’s 2014 Water Charges Policy Direction to the CER, Water Allowances will apply for Domestic Customers who pay their charges in a timely manner. Water Allowances will therefore apply to Customers who adhere to Irish Water’s payment terms, payment arrangements plans or dunning process as the case may be.

The Dunning process refers to the collections process, whereby the utility communicates with customers who have fallen behind in paying their bills. The degree of dunning that a utility may resort to depends on several factors, including the amount of the debt and the length of time for which the payment is overdue.

ABajaninCork

davo10 wrote: »

I think you are putting the cart before the ass. You get your initial yearly allowance when you sign up and thereafter each year if you pay in time. If you don't pay on time, it would seem they don't give you your allowance in the second year and charge you for all water used. The answer for question K also refers the reader to question C.

Another good reason to pay and on time.

Not quite. I was on the phone to IW this evening to clear up the confusion around the pack sent to us. The pack was in fact for our landlord for his own house. We, as his tenants never received one. So we registered over the phone. All done very quickly, once the initial confusion was cleared up.

One of the questions I asked was this: I want to pay the bill weekly at the PO when I collect my dole, in the same way as I pay for the TV Licence, gas, electric and bins. I was told that if I didn't want to set up a DD or give my credit/debit card details (Which I don't, ta :P), I could present the bill at the PO for scanning and pay it that way.

Victor

Gatling wrote: »

Another thing to think about for those that are unemployed or are disability or illness benefits , IW will go directly to social welfare to get your details and sign you up regardless thanks to legislation signed last year

I would like you to point to this legislation.

Moderator

Victor

Dark Phoenix wrote: »

I rent the house I live in and the pack came to the house. I don;t mind paying the charges however I don't agree with irish water having my PPSN - especially since when I went to renew my driver licence recently the place refused to let me until i provided proof of the PPSN that was already on my licence. So how can the govt treat this information as so important and confidential one minute and then just expect it to be given to a third party for water charges?

That 'third party' is an arm of government that is receiving government funds on your behalf.

If I choose to move house I dont want to be worried that i will still be charged for this house afetrwards because irish water have my PPSN attached to it!

Then keep your details up to date.

Anyone know what happens if I fill in the form without PPS, send in it with my bank details etc?

You won't get an allowance. In fairness, this is to stop people with multiple properties from scamming the state.

also do you have to pay by direct debit or can you have them invoice you and pay it after by a payment method of choice?

I get the impression that exact payment details are yet to be decided.

Gatling

Victor wrote: »

I would like you to point to this legislation.

Moderator

I believe and what I was told directly by IW the social welfare and pensions bill of 2014 .

MadDog76

m'lady wrote: »

As stated in my OP the landlord has received the pack- I have received nothing. So am I right to assume this pack she received is actually for me then?

The pack should have arrived at the house/apartment you reside in addressed to either yourself, your LL or the "occupant" ........ either way it's intend recipient is you.

I don't understand why your LL is approaching you about this issue at all

Grandpa Hassan

MadDog76 wrote: »

The pack should have arrived at the house/apartment you reside in addressed to either yourself, your LL or the "occupant" ........ either way it's intend recipient is you.

I don't understand why your LL is approaching you about this issue at all

I think because LLs are worried the tenants won't register (they'll do the return to sender thing that so many people on here are going to do) and despite what anyone says, it will ultimately end up with the LL.

MadDog76

Victor wrote: »

That 'third party' is an arm of government that is receiving government funds on your behalf.

Then keep your details up to date.

You won't get an allowance. In fairness, this is to stop people with multiple properties from scamming the state.

I get the impression that exact payment details are yet to be decided.

The payment methods are made very clear in the pack ........

willbur

HI I sent emails to Irish water , asking about this and if there was a simple way to sort it out , see below


From:
house
Sent: 29 September 2014 21:06
To: Irish Water Customer Service
Subject: Irish Water Online Contact Form



Category:
General enquiries
Title: Mr
First name: B
Last name: S
Email address: house
Telephone: 0861111111
Address:
Town: Milltown
County: Dublin
Message: Hi , we have received you form in the post , and it requires only 1 pps no , even as there are 4 adults over 25 in the house, and no children under 25, We would like to have the bill in the name of all the adults , as this house is rented and no 1 person wants to be the sole account holder, as he/she would feel that they would be libel for all the costs, ,our electric/gas/household waste/ are in 4 names as well, hope this can be sorted regards b

From: Apply@water.ie
To: house
Subject: Thank You For Your Email Regarding Multiple Account Holders–Customer Id:9573130588
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 12:58:51 +0000

Dear Mr S,

Thank you for your email regarding Multiple Account Holders.

Each household is entitled to household allowances which is secured by using one adult PPSN number. Only one allowances is applied per property.

One adult PPSN is required for this allowance and is to ensure that there is no multiple applications for allowances per household.

More then one name can be added to the account. However it is the person who PPSN is provided who is liable for all charges at the premise.

To add multiple names to your account please contact the Irish Water Application line on the telephone number below with each account holder present to have them added.

Apologies for any inconvenience caused.

If you have any further queries you can visit our Questions and Answers section here, alternatively you can reach us by using the contact details below.




From:
B S
Sent: 29 September 2014 15:36
To: Apply
Subject: RE: Thank You For Your Email Regarding Multiple Account Holders–Customer Id:111111111

HI thanks for your email , will you require the 4 adults pps no , so that they can be added to the account, and will the 4adults be libel for the account , equally or will it just be the first named , if this is the case , we will have a problem , as I have said not 1 of the tenants will take sole responsibility for the account , so you will have to find a way to solve this , collectively we have no issue paying but will only do so as a group account, regards b

　
From: apply
To: house
Subject: Thank You For Your Email Regarding Multiple Account Holders–Customer Id:111111111
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 15:29:06 +0000

Dear Mr S

Thank you for your email regarding Multiple Account Holders.

As stated in previous emails, we only require one adults PPSN. We can add all 4 adults to the account. The tenants will need to call us up so we can add them each to the account.

If you have any further queries you can visit our Questions and Answers section here, alternatively you can reach us by using the contact details below.

Yours sincerely,
<mod snip>

　



From:
B S
Sent: 30 September 2014 17.56
To: Apply
Subject: RE: Thank You For Your Email Regarding Multiple Account Holders–Customer Id:111111111

Hi none of the tenants are willing to be the first name with there pps no as we all feel that the first on the list will be deemed the sole responsible account holder, and we are not willing to do this , please can you email me a form where we all can declare our joint responsibility for the account and provide you with the 4 pps no and there signed declaration in no particular order , we will not just put in 1 name and contact you by phone to add the rest, it will have to be done at the same time, on the form, regards b

ps taking information over the phone could cause a problem , as you will have no way of verifying that the person who gives you a pps no is the owner of that no,

　

From: Apply@water.ie
To: house
Subject: Thank You For Your Email Regarding Multiple Account Holders–Customer Id:11111111
Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2014 09:53:48 +0000

Dear Mr S

Thank you for your reply regarding Multiple Account Holders.

Our information has been updated and I can now confirm with you that we can have multiple people liable for the bill on the account of the premise.

We will still only require 1 PPS Number and we can then add the other tenants names to the account and make them financially responsible also. The Person who decides to apply with their PPS Number will be down as the ‘Main Customer’ and the bill will be in their name. However all 4 people will still be responsible to pay the bill



From:
B S
Sent: 02 October 2014 18:21
To: Apply
Subject: RE: Thank You For Your Email Regarding Multiple Account Holders–Customer Id:1111111111

HI thanks for the reply , but you have not addressed the issue none of us wish to be " the main customer " we all want our names on the account
as the Main group account holders, from the get-go not added at a later date with not 1 person having the account only in his or her name , the same way you would have a limit company do, its quite simple to do , other service suppliers to us have done this for us, again regards b

　

Apply 07/10/2014

To: house

Dear Mr S

Thank you for your reply regarding Multiple Account Holders.

I have double checked with my supervisors and unfortunately, the policy as it stands is that only one person can apply with their PPS Number for the allowances and that they will be the main customer. We can still add the other names to the account as previously stated.

Sincerest Apologies for the inconvenience.Yours sincerely,

<mod snip>




　

The_Morrigan

Folks if you're going to post emails from Irish Water...do not leave in the staff names.

sunshine and showers

MadDog76 wrote: »

The pack should have arrived at the house/apartment you reside in addressed to either yourself, your LL or the "occupant" ........ either way it's intend recipient is you.

I don't understand why your LL is approaching you about this issue at all

No, the pack can arrive at the LL's residence because they are the registered owner of the house. They forward it to tenants. It happened with my LL.

By the way, I know someone who owns a property who spoke directly to IW to have this point clarified: the tenant is responsible for payment of water charges, not the LL. The tenant will be the one held liable for arrears.

Both of these points are confirmed here: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/landlords-not-liable-for-tenants-water-bills-1.1944634

MadDog76

sunshine and showers wrote: »

No, the pack can arrive at the LL's residence because they are the registered owner of the house. They forward it to tenants. It happened with my LL.

By the way, I know someone who owns a property who spoke directly to IW to have this point clarified: the tenant is responsible for payment of water charges, not the LL. The tenant will be the one held liable for arrears.

Both of these points are confirmed here: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/landlords-not-liable-for-tenants-water-bills-1.1944634

LL's also receive letters just in case one of their properties is vacant, however every individual household will receive their own pack which means that if a LL has a Tenant living in one of his/her properties he/she has no need to approach his/her Tenant about filling out the application form or forwarding a pack to his/her Tenant ............ so I still don't understand why the Op's LL approached him at all

Gatling

MadDog76 wrote: »

so I still don't understand why the Op's LL approached him at all

Lack of coherent information i think ,
And a total lack of understanding from LLs as to what there role in this is

MadDog76

Gatling wrote: »

Lack of coherent information i think ,
And a total lack of understanding from LLs as to what there role in this is

Must be I guess .........