Do you consider yourself european?

jimgoose

karma_ wrote: »

And you call then Yanks? I'm sure they love that.

Go on then, enlighten us all to the similarities?

They love what I tell them to love. They like me, that's why they call me a weird Mick bastuhd with the usual potato fetish. Go from sea to shining sea and all you'll find is moderately conservatve folk of Dutch, German, Scandinavian, British and Irish descent. To me, it feels just like South Tipp only with more space and bigger cars.

karma_

jimgoose wrote: »

They love what I tell them to love. They like me, that's why they call me a weird Mick bastuhd with the usual potato fetish. Go from sea to shining sea and all you'll find is moderately conservatve folk of Dutch, German, Scandinavian, British and Irish descent. To me, it feels just like South Tipp only with more space and bigger cars.

I got on with pretty much the same with all the Americans I became friends with, I think the world of them still, but I can't ignore that huge cultural difference that exists between us.

DeadHand

The Corinthian wrote: »

Not a very good argument really.

Sports, no; the emphasis on sports is quite different between Dublin and non-Dublin - a Dublin lad is far more likely to be playing Rugby that the lad from Leitrim.

And food, please - I suppose Supermacs is big in Dublin?

As to rituals growing up, I can attest to them not being the same having gone to school down the country and coming from Dublin. How many Dubs will have experienced harvest festivals, 'hops' or hare coursing?

You've missed my point entirely.

My point wasn't that the culture in Leitrim was just the same as in Dublin, it was that the cultural differences between Dublin and Leitrim would be less dramatic than those between Dublin and Southern Italy. The poster I was replying to claimed they would be equally alien to each other.

And in the hypothetical I presented it's perfectly possible that any combination of alliance form between Ciro, Seamus (the Leitrim lad is now Seamus) and Damo, all three get on like a house on fire or all three despise each other irrationally. My point was that having grown up in cultures far from identical yet more similar to each others than to Ciro's, all other factors being equal, it was more likely the Irish lads would click with greater ease.

Ok, the language I used may have been too absolute but I stand by the argument.

You seem to have a cliched, slightly contempteous take on Irish ruralites. Supermacs? Really? Are you going to tell me Black Americans all love fried chicken next? That Dubs all eat batter burgers?

A 'hop'? A harvest festival? When did you go to school down the country? The 1930s?

Also, hare coursing is firmly a minority pursuit even well beyond the pale. I'd wager a robust majority of country dwellers have never attended a coursing event.

By "rituals" I meant more First Holy Communions, Confirmations, family funerals, christenings, weddings, sporting events, exams, debs, concerts, festivals, driving tests, etc. Not that they wouldn't have any and all those things in Southern Italy, just that Irish people, urban and rural, would be more likely to have had broadly more similar experiences of these events than our beloved Ciro.

It was unfair of you to choose either ridiculously antiquated, long extinct events or a relatively tiny, controversial, arguably barbaric pursuit and hold them up as common rural rituals (they clearly aren't) instead of the many more benign, positive or modern ones you could have thought up.

jimgoose

karma_ wrote: »

I got on with pretty much the same with all the Americans I became friends with, I think the world of them still, but I can't ignore that huge cultural difference that exists between us.

Mmm. Didn't notice it myself, chief. Still, a vast and verdant land, wha'?

karma_

jimgoose wrote: »

Mmm. Didn't notice it myself, chief. Still, a vast and verdant land, wha'?

A vast, verdant and culturally different land indeed.

jimgoose

karma_ wrote: »

A vast, verdant and culturally different land indeed.

To be sure. From NYC to East Texas. ; )

Kev_2012

Yes. Born in England to Irish parents, grew up in Ireland.

Limerickman first, then Irishman, then European

The Corinthian

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We have more in common with the countries we formally colonized. Sorry if that offends you...

We? Last I checked the England, and later the UK, colonised what became the USA and had already lost it by the time we became part of the UK. Both the US and Ireland speak English because we were both colonized by the same people.

Call a spade a spade, there are similarities between somewhere like the US and Ireland, which are inherited from our former rulers; common law, somewhat simelar educational systems (at third level, less so below), some residual attachment to the Imperial measuring system, Victorian attitudes twoards sex and, most importantly, English.

But the claim you made that we're closer to them culturally than to other Europeans, not that we have something in common and so far you've not exactly made much effort to prove your point.

For example, I can point out to you that many of our attitudes and cultural perspectives are much closer to mainland Europe than the US.

Our politics, and definitions of left and right, liberal and conservative, and essentially European and bare little similarity to American politics where their 'liberals' would often hold positions on a par with our conservatives.

Many American attitudes are completely alien to us; specifically in areas such as religion or gun control. There too we are much closer to Europe.

Americans are far more 'optimistic' less interested in looking back at history than us Europeans; it's a large reason why they are noted for their 'can do' attitude while we are accused of being stuck in the past ("Old Europe).

We believe in socialized health. And a social safety net. Like other Europeans. Attitudes to this are, as we saw with opposition to Obamacare, less positive in the US.

And that's off the top of my head.

Of course, if you're a monoglot, I can understand how a nation that speaks the only language you speak might seem more familiar, but seeming is not the same thing as being so.

TheBeardedLady

Been in Spain 5 years so have a grasp of the lingo now at this stage and it's only when you do get it down do you realise how much we've in common. Funny, the Spanish I've asked this question don't see themselves as European either yet in Ireland, we'd view them as being one of the "main" European countries and an integral part of this continent.

I've a lot of American family and have spent a good bit of time there, though haven't lived bar the J1 for three months and apart from the language, I feel we're very different. I think the language barriers between European countries creates a bit of a distance and we're more similar than we think and the shared language between the US and Ireland gives the impression that we've more in common than we really do.

fleet_admiral

I did. Now im becoming more and more Euro skeptic

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I disagree culturally, politically, socially and psychologically we have far more in common with the US and Canada than France and Germany. Especially Canada.

Do you get sexually aroused when you see a red coat?

bb1234567

bnt wrote: »

I'm "European" in my drinking habits: occasional drinks with food, no drinking to get drunk. The way you do it here in Ireland - explicitly planning to get "locked" - is not "European".

I think youre confusing all europeans with posh middle aged women eating their al fresco dinner in the french riviera. If my european friends from germany, ukraine, hungary and spain are anything to go by (aged 18-21) then europeans drink a lot, and getting drunk is just as big a part of a night out as it is in ireland

Drakares

bnt wrote: »

I'm "European" in my drinking habits: occasional drinks with food, no drinking to get drunk. The way you do it here in Ireland - explicitly planning to get "locked" - is not "European".

Having been in several European countries, I have to say that this is absolutely nonsense.

bb1234567

No I dont really think of myself as european. I identify more as a westerner because we are english speaking, like I think we are more like america, uk, australia and nz than mainland europe.

Heikki

Yes for sure.

GotTheTshirt

Only when the Ryder cup is on.

crannglas

What is European exactly? Loads of countries in Europe just not in EU. Majority of those countries hate the other and would as someone put it gouge out each others eye balls if not economically tied. Every one of them are of different cultural ways and mannerisms. My friend told me from poland, when theygo home now it is a culture shock for them how rude people are to them in shops and likes. No smile no please or thank you. She said,she forgot she wasn't in Ireland and said how are you to shop girl. She gave her a dirty look apparently ignored her. Lol She believes as does many of my friends from other countries we are most polite. Ireland isn't even in Europe geographically. The only thing European about Ireland is they say we are in EU. Nothing else. Ask a polish person do you feel european . Nine times out of ten they will say no chance. As for myself,no I feel Irish and never European. Irish is my heritage identity and proud to say I am Irish and rave about our lovely albeit dysfunctional family of miscreants

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

Do you get sexually aroused when you see a red coat?

Depends on who is wearing it.

Do you get sexually aroused by asking stupid questions?

crannglas

bb1234567 wrote: »

I think youre confusing all europeans with posh middle aged women eating their al fresco dinner in the french riviera. If my european friends from germany, ukraine, hungary and spain are anything to go by (aged 18-21) then europeans drink a lot, and getting drunk is just as big a part oof a night out as it is in ireland

Of course they do. Its just not media beaten into the country because they can blame the tourists lol All the polish I know who worked on construction sites bought beer on way to work and drank it for their lunches. But someone no doubt will blame drunken loud Irish for this bad influence. Lol

Jussnot Fairmann

Definitely see myself as more 'british-isles'-ian than European. Got feck all in common with anyone from the continental mainland

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Depends on who is wearing it.

Do you get sexually aroused by asking stupid questions?

You don't even try. It's all very well you having one opinion but to jump around essentially saying the exact same thing post after post and thanking other posts of the exact same nature - without even trying to tell us why you think your opinion is relevant.

Hell, if it was a hit and run post I'd understand but you stuck around repeating yourself like a parrot.

Iwasfrozen

karma_ wrote: »

You don't even try. It's all very well you having one opinion but to jump around essentially saying the exact same thing post after post and thanking other posts of the exact same nature - without even trying to tell us why you think your opinion is relevant.

Hell, if it was a hit and run post I'd understand but you stuck around repeating yourself like a parrot.

Hush I'm going to extrapolate my point but not on my phone. You're taking this very serious.

Lapin

oceanman wrote: »

No, even though our dumbass leaders sold us out to Europe, I still consider myself Irish.

Are you sure you're not a 13 year old Californian ?

karma_

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Hush I'm going to extrapolate my point but not on my phone. You're taking this very serious.

AH is serious business!!

Censorsh!t

Added a poll so people can battle it out with clearer results

MRnotlob606

European is an eclectic term. There's no one size fits all definition - that's why there's so much discussion on it. Though you cannot deny the fact that Ireland is European nation due the fact we share some of the common characteristics as other European countries ie. Membership of the EU, traditionally christian country etc.

Although yet again, this is a pretty standard definition and not necessarily true, for example, Norway and Switzerland are European countries but are not members of EU and Albania is a Muslim majority country.

KungPao

Absolutely not.

I am West British.

crannglas

Censorsh!t wrote: »

Added a poll so people can battle it out with clearer results

Worms cans open. You really out did yourself on this one, they will be at each others throats soon lol

The Corinthian

bb1234567 wrote: »

No I dont really think of myself as european. I identify more as a westerner because we are english speaking, like I think we are more like america, uk, australia and nz than mainland europe.

Hmmm... you don't actually know what the term 'Westerner' actually means, do you?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Hush I'm going to extrapolate my point but not on my phone. You're taking this very serious.

Go easy on him, he's not as used to your usual MO of coming out with spurious arguments then running for cover when someone points out they're built on sand or falsehoods, as some of us are.

Nodin

Censorsh!t wrote: »

Added a poll so people can battle it out with clearer results

And its your fault I clicked on the wrong option.

crannglas

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

European is an eclectic term. There's no one size fits all definition - that's why there's so much discussion on it. Though you cannot deny the fact that Ireland is European nation due the fact we share some of the common characteristics as other European countries ie. Membership of the EU, traditionally christian country etc.

Although yet again, this is a pretty standard definition and not necessarily true, for example, Norway and Switzerland are European countries but are not members of EU and Albania is a Muslim majority country.

Yeah Norway was smart enough to stay out of the collective. Albania would be on paper partly Muslim country majority atheists if you know their history and previously majority Catholics. They are however die hard nationalists. Norwegians are very much different to Switzerland as are we to them. Only simalarities I believe most of our countries have we are all very nationalistic lol

tayto lover

Irish first.
A wee bit European shure didn't I help to bail out their banks.

The Corinthian

crannglas wrote: »

Yeah Norway was smart enough to stay out of the collective.

Norway stays out because it does not make sense for Norway to join. Same goes for Switzerland. This may change in the future or it may not. But I really don't understand why some seem to think that what works for Norway will work for Ireland or vice versa, which is what your statement essentially says.

Only simalarities I believe most of our countries have we are all very nationalistic

Swiss sense of nationalism would put any Irishman's to shame.

c_man

Jussnot Fairmann wrote: »

Definitely see myself as more 'british-isles'-ian than European. Got feck all in common with anyone from the continental mainland

Ah now, I reckon there's a few lads among the 400 million or so that you'd share interests with.

Iwasfrozen

The Corinthian wrote: »

We? Last I checked the England, and later the UK, colonised what became the USA and had already lost it by the time we became part of the UK. Both the US and Ireland speak English because we were both colonized by the same people.

Call a spade a spade, there are similarities between somewhere like the US and Ireland, which are inherited from our former rulers; common law, somewhat simelar educational systems (at third level, less so below), some residual attachment to the Imperial measuring system, Victorian attitudes twoards sex and, most importantly, English.

But the claim you made that we're closer to them culturally than to other Europeans, not that we have something in common and so far you've not exactly made much effort to prove your point.

For example, I can point out to you that many of our attitudes and cultural perspectives are much closer to mainland Europe than the US.

Our politics, and definitions of left and right, liberal and conservative, and essentially European and bare little similarity to American politics where their 'liberals' would often hold positions on a par with our conservatives.

Many American attitudes are completely alien to us; specifically in areas such as religion or gun control. There too we are much closer to Europe.

Americans are far more 'optimistic' less interested in looking back at history than us Europeans; it's a large reason why they are noted for their 'can do' attitude while we are accused of being stuck in the past ("Old Europe).

We believe in socialized health. And a social safety net. Like other Europeans. Attitudes to this are, as we saw with opposition to Obamacare, less positive in the US.

And that's off the top of my head.

Of course, if you're a monoglot, I can understand how a nation that speaks the only language you speak might seem more familiar, but seeming is not the same thing as being so.

The United Kingdom were our mutual rulers but the Irish made up a large percentage of the people who colonized what is now the United States, Canada, Australia and New Zealand. A large proportion of people in these countries are descended from Irish people. So yes, while these lands were not under our political hegemony the argument can't really be made that we didn't colonize them. We certainly did.

All those things you listed are true but I feel you're glossing over similarities that are extremely important. For example our use of the English language is more than a coincidence, it represents a shared heritage and cultural union. When American media is consumed on the continent it must either first be converted to the countries national language, in which case it looses a lot of its meaning, or it is kept in English but broadcast to a much smaller audience. As a result Ireland is much more susceptible to American media than other non-English speaking countries would be.

Secondly our use of Common Law. A countries system of law is obviously a very important facet in the lives of its citizens. In Ireland, the United States and pretty much every other former British possession we use the Common Law, a system of law not shared with our European neighbours.

Our Parliamentary style is a hybrid of the British side benches style and the European (and US) semi circular style. Our lower house looks like a horse shoe.

We share a use of Imperial units though thankfully we seem to be moving towards metric.

Socialized health care? I wouldn't call that continental. The United Kingdom's healthcare is more "socialized" than ours. Similarly Canada, Australia and New Zealand have government funded health services. The United States is the only developed country that doesn't.

I think overall while our attitudes and outlook on life are more similar to Americans than Europeans ( I work for Americans and I don't see the extra "optimism" you're talking about) but certainly we're more similar to the British than both and given our history that's unsurprising.

Nodin

....good thing I had the bucket handy.

GotTheTshirt

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

European is an eclectic term. There's no one size fits all definition - that's why there's so much discussion on it. Though you cannot deny the fact that Ireland is European nation due the fact we share some of the common characteristics as other European countries ie. Membership of the EU, traditionally christian country etc.

Those characteristics are neither here nor there, you somehow forgot what actually makes us european, geography.

crannglas

The Corinthian wrote: »

Norway stays out because it does not make sense for Norway to join. Same goes for Switzerland. This may change in the future or it may not. But I really don't understand why some seem to think that what works for Norway will work for Ireland or vice versa, which is what your statement essentially says.

Swiss sense of nationalism would put any Irishman's to shame.

. Not in slightest what I am implying. I am anti EU and believe that's what got us into this mess in first place. I believe all countries should stick to whats good for their own instead of trying to make so different people and economies the same. Stupid and failing. Irelands differences was its strength as was its currency.

MRnotlob606

GotTheTshirt wrote: »

Those characteristics are neither here nor there, you somehow forgot what actually makes us european, geography.

yeah you're right, I should of put that it, would've made more sense, oh well.

Fratton Fred

Nodin wrote: »

And its your fault I clicked on the wrong option.

That's ok. This is a European poll, so you get to vote again and again until you pick the right option.

crannglas

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's ok. This is a European poll, so you get to vote again and again until you pick the right option.

Ha ha 100 thousand thumbs up!

Banjoxed

Dual citizen before anyone gets the vapours over what follows:

Donegal,
then
Irish,
then
British,
then
European.

The Corinthian

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

A large proportion of people in these countries are descended from Irish people. So yes, while these lands were not under our political hegemony the argument can't really be made that we didn't colonize them. We certainly did.

So not "countries we formally colonized" as you claimed earlier, but more informally colonized then? In other words you were talking historical nonsense.

So, now it's only informal colonization - "a large proportion of people in these countries are descended from Irish people" as you put it. I presume that by this logic we are far more simelar to the Argentines than other Europeans?

All those things you listed are true but I feel you're glossing over similarities that are extremely important. For example our use of the English language is more than a coincidence, it represents a shared heritage and cultural union.

Don't you think that you might be exaggerating that "shared heritage and cultural union" though?

As a result Ireland is much more susceptible to American media than other non-English speaking countries would be.

You've clearly not lived in any non-English speaking countries then.

Secondly our use of Common Law.

Again, I'd contend you're exaggerating there also.

Our Parliamentary style is a hybrid of the British side benches style and the European (and US) semi circular style. Our lower house looks like a horse shoe.

Bit of a non-point.

We share a use of Imperial units though thankfully we seem to be moving towards metric.

We don't really use Imperial units though. We seem attached to them still for personal measurements like height or weight, but pretty much everything else has moved to metric a while back. Another point of difference between us an the US is our use of Celsius rather than Fahrenheit, btw.

Socialized health care? I wouldn't call that continental. The United Kingdom's healthcare is more "socialized" than ours.

And the UK is... wait for it... a European country; whether they like the definition or not. Not sure what the point of using the UK as an example to defend the lack of similarity between the US and Ireland is for though.

Similarly Canada, Australia and New Zealand have government funded health services. The United States is the only developed country that doesn't.

So you agree with my point about the US? Because I didn't mention anywhere else.

I think overall while our attitudes and outlook on life are more similar to Americans than Europeans ( I work for Americans and I don't see the extra "optimism" you're talking about) but certainly we're more similar to the British than both and given our history that's unsurprising.

You might think we're more similar to Americans than Europeans, but you still haven't actually given an argument why. All you did is give an argument how we're simelar to the British, who are a European nation.

Feel free to actually defend your earlier points whenever you like, rather than trying to change the goalposts. Thanks.

crannglas wrote: »

Not in slightest what I am implying.

Then you might want to rephrase it because that's what you did.

I am anti EU and believe that's what got us into this mess in first place. I believe all countries should stick to whats good for their own instead of trying to make so different people and economies the same. Stupid and failing. Irelands differences was its strength as was its currency.

Oh dear. What do you know about our late currency that brought you to this conclusion? Or what our economy was like back in the 'good old days'?

And when you say you believe, are we talking about based upon reason and facts or like "I believe in a great spaghetti monster in the sky"? Just asking.

crannglas

The Corinthian wrote: »

So not "countries we formally colonized" as you claimed earlier, but more informally colonized then? In other words you were talking historical nonsense.

So, now it's only informal colonization - "a large proportion of people in these countries are descended from Irish people" as you put it. I presume that by this logic we are far more simelar to the Argentines than other Europeans?

Don't you think that you might be exaggerating that "shared heritage and cultural union" though?

You've clearly not lived in any non-English speaking countries then.

Again, I'd contend you're exaggerating there also.

Bit of a non-point.

We don't really use Imperial units though. We seem attached to them still for personal measurements like height or weight, but pretty much everything else has moved to metric a while back. Another point of difference between us an the US is our use of Celsius rather than Fahrenheit, btw.

And the UK is... wait for it... a European country; whether they like the definition or not. Not sure what the point of using the UK as an example to defend the lack of similarity between the US and Ireland is for though.

So you agree with my point about the US? Because I didn't mention anywhere else.

You might think we're more similar to Americans than Europeans, but you still haven't actually given an argument why. All you did is give an argument how we're simelar to the British, who are a European nation.

Feel free to actually defend your earlier points whenever you like, rather than trying to change the goalposts. Thanks.

Then you might want to rephrase it because that's what you did.

Oh dear. What do you know about our late currency that brought you to this conclusion? Or what our economy was like back in the 'good old days'?

And when you say you believe, are we talking about based upon reason and facts or like "I believe in a great spaghetti monster in the sky"? Just asking.

I have to only reply with one comment to that. As opposed to your democratically stable economic EU and euro lol please.

Paramite Pie

Do Madagascan people feel African? It'd seem weird if they didn't. Or if the Malaysians said they weren't Asian.

I feel Northwestern European to be precise. But I don't feel any country should have a monopoly on the term "European".

bnt wrote: »

Oh, I know - I saw a few things on trips to Denmark that would curl your hair, and once shared a house with some Swedes here in Dublin. I couldn't even try to compete with that. But that's not what I meant by "European" drinking, which I did see in France, Spain and Portugal. I expect I'd see different drinking if I visited Slovakia ...

So you really just mean "Mediterranean" drinking then? If binge drinking occurs on this continent then it is "European" by default. Ireland has more in common with the folksy British & Scandanavian countries rather than the Romanized ones.

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

No I want nothing to do with this European "project"

Neither do I, but that has little to do with this thread. The EU has nothing to do with being European, lot's of European countries aren't even in it.

Mehaffey1

Not really, would always say I'm Irish, easier that way.

Living in New Zealand at the moment, old manager's wife once asked me if I'd ever been to Europe. Replied sure I live there. She said "Really, I thought Ireland and Britain where it's own thing". Lost my faith in people that day

myshirt

Once, no. But after this song, yes.

suicide_circus

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's ok. This is a European poll, so you get to vote again and again until you pick the right option.

Nicely done

The Corinthian

myshirt wrote: »

Once, no. But after this song, yes.

That song would drive me to join UKIP TBH.

topper75

Mehaffey1 wrote: »

Not really, would always say I'm Irish, easier that way.

Living in New Zealand at the moment, old manager's wife once asked me if I'd ever been to Europe. Replied sure I live there. She said "Really, I thought Ireland and Britain where it's own thing". Lost my faith in people that day

Lady's got it down. I imagine she wouldn't give a bucket of kiwi sh1te for that "Australasia" project either.