Life after death

Sclosages

telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/11144442/First-hint-of-life-after-death-in-biggest-ever-scientific-study.html

Fascinating study! Not sure I'd like to be prowling around dead looking at everything going on though!

catallus

I see dumb people.

Sir Arthur Daley

Is there wifi there?

SEPT 23 1989

One short sleep past, we wake eternally

Sclosages

OSI wrote: »

The study was very different to what the opening paragraph describes. It refers to patients who's heart had stopped beating and had it restarted. The brain doesn't instantly die after the heart stops beating, so obviously there is going to be some element of sensation or consciousness.

They state in the article that there is no brain function once the heart stops?

aaronjumper

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Is there wifi there?

Yes but you only have access using internet explorer.

fxotoole

aaronjumper wrote: »

Yes but you only have access using internet explorer.

Sounds like Hell, not Heaven.

AnonoBoy

Sounds really interesting but I ain't got the time to cut and paste a link so I'll just have to keep on wondering I suppose.

WoollyRedHat

aaronjumper

fxotoole wrote: »

Sounds like Hell, not Heaven.

They said life after death, never said it would be a good life.

What happens if you use bing and IE at the same time?

fxotoole

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Sounds really interesting but I ain't got the time to cut and paste a link so I'll just have to keep on wondering I suppose.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/000/284/529/e65.gif

nelly17

Heard about this on the radio "Proof of Heaven: A Neurosurgeon's Journey into the Afterlife"

Often thought of picking it up but never got round to it

I dont believe in cutting and pasting, it offends me.

Philo Beddoe

Sclosages wrote: »

telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/11144442/First-hint-of-life-after-death-in-biggest-ever-scientific-study.html

Fascinating study! Not sure I'd like to be prowling around dead looking at everything going on though!

So a study which deals with cases of people who aren't actually dead claims there is life after death? Hmm...

Sclosages

Philo Beddoe wrote: »

So a study which deals with cases of people who aren't actually dead claims there is life after death? Hmm...

Eh, they were dead.

AnonoBoy

Sclosages wrote: »

Eh, they were dead.

They were probably just napping.

Sclosages

How can you explain someone dead, lying with eyes closed presumably, being able to describe everything that happened in the three minutes before they resuscitated him?

AnonoBoy

Sclosages wrote: »

How can you explain someone dead, lying with eyes closed presumably, being able to describe everything that happened in the three minutes before they resuscitated him?

Clearly they were just pretending to be dead and have eh..... x-ray vision.


Why aren't we talking about this as proof of x-ray vision is what I want to know.

Canis Lupus

Sclosages wrote: »

How can you explain someone dead, lying with eyes closed presumably, being able to describe everything that happened in the three minutes before they resuscitated him?

Vivid imagination?

seamus

Sclosages wrote: »

They state in the article that there is no brain function once the heart stops?

If there is no brain function, it can't be restarted. That's known as brain death.

Here's the actual study; which says something far different: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/10/141007092108.htm

The article poorly articulates the entire thing. When the heart stops beating, blood flow to the brain stops, which results in a drastic reduction of the amount of oxygen and glucose in the brain. This causes unconsciousness pretty quickly (consciouness requires a *lot* of energy to maintain), but there is still enough residual oxygen and glucose stored in the blood and cell tissues for the brain to continue operating its vital autonomic functions.
Afaik, the structure of the brain has evolved in such a way that in the event of sudden loss of oxygen, your autonomic functions are the last to shut down.

In addition, the process of resuscitation artificially forces blood and oxygen to move through the body, not enough to bring back consciousness but enough to stave off brain cell deterioration if done properly.

So people whose hearts have stopped are not clinically dead (though that depends on the jurisdiction), and especially if resuscitation is being actively performed on them, there's every reason to believe that they can unconsciously hear and visualise what's going on around them, in much the same way that when you hear a beeping while you're asleep, you often assimilate that into the dream.

Individuals in this state would be much closer to a waking state than REM sleep, so their experiences would seem far more like a waking dream, and they visualise in their mind the sounds they're hearing at present and so believe they're standing in the room watching themselves being resuscitated. If their eyes are open during the process, they could also theoretically assimilate what they see, into their experience.

There's a very large and ongoing study around this which places "markers" in resus rooms in hospitals and then interviews those who claim to have had out-of-body experiences while being resuscitated (maybe it's this one).
Not a single person has thus far been able to recall seeing any of these "markers" during their experience and in fact the level of detail recalled by anyone was exceptionally low. Just like a daydream.

Karl Stein

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ptQatdjOFM

Akrasia

I feel a little bit dirty after being on the telegraph website, but at least it re-confirmed just how absolutely shockingly awful it is as a source for anything even remotely scientific.

kneemos

There's a bit of a flaw in the study in that these people weren't dead.
Also if there is a heaven and a God then presumably he would know this.

jimgoose

Studies have repeatedly shown that all brain function ceases shortly after picking up The Telegraph.

wp_rathead

Sclosages wrote: »

Eh, they were dead.

Im not dead
Im getting better
I feel happpyyyy

AtomicHorror

This is the AWARE study, right? Ask the people involved in the research if they think their results support evidence of life after death. I'd bet they say no.

From Wikipedia:

As part of the study Parnia and colleagues have investigated out of body claims by using hidden targets placed on shelves that could only be seen from above.[141]

In 2014 Parnia issued a statement indicating that the first phase of the project has been completed and the results are undergoing peer review for publication in a medical journal.[142] No subjects saw the images mounted out of sight according to Parnia's early report of the results of the study at an American Heart Association meeting in November 2013. Only two out of the 152 patients reported any visual experiences, and one of them described events that could be verified.[143]

Sorry OP, and the Telegraph, but the research does not actually say what you want it to say. To the rest criticising the research, the same point. It does not say what is being claimed here.

wuzziwig

AtomicHorror wrote: »

This is the AWARE study, right? Ask the people involved in the research if they think their results support evidence of life after death. I'd bet they say no.

From Wikipedia:



Sorry OP, and the Telegraph, but the research does not actually say what you want it to say. To the rest criticising the research, the same point. It does not say what is being claimed here.

So does that mean I take off the cilice and hair shirt and get up off my knees praying for forgiveness then?

Hoop66

"praying for forgiveness", suuuure. That's what you were doing down there.

Sclosages

They were dead! If no-one had resuscitated them, they wouldn't have lived to tell the tale. So, they were dead.

endacl

jimgoose wrote: »

Studies have repeatedly shown that all brain function ceases shortly after picking up The Telegraph.

Wrong. Only the higher functions. Individuals reading the Telegraph have been shown to retain an ability to dribble.

osarusan

Sclosages wrote: »

They were dead! If no-one had resuscitated them, they wouldn't have lived to tell the tale. So, they were dead.

I put my head underwater in the bath last night. If I hadn't taken it out again, I wouldn't have lived to tell the tale. So, I was dead.

AtomicHorror

wuzziwig wrote: »

So does that mean I take off the cilice and hair shirt and get up off my knees praying for forgiveness then?

If you're into those things I see no reason why you should let a little bit of science stop you.

Sclosages

osarusan wrote: »

I put my head underwater in the bath last night. If I hadn't taken it out again, I wouldn't have lived to tell the tale. So, I was dead.

No ya lug ya. You weren't dead. Your heart had not stopped while you put your head under water.

GLaDOS

Sclosages wrote: »

They were dead! If no-one had resuscitated them, they wouldn't have lived to tell the tale. So, they were dead.

Nope, they were nearly dead, insanely close to dead maybe. But they weren't dead. Death is final.

The study itself is quite interesting and says a lot about conciousness as you approach death, pity the Telegraph mangled it.

smcgiff

Sclosages wrote: »

They were dead! If no-one had resuscitated them, they wouldn't have lived to tell the tale. So, they were dead.

Read seamus' s post above, and come back to us... if brain function has restarted

Sclosages

smcgiff wrote: »

Read seamus' s post above, and come back to us... if brain function has restarted

I didn't initiate the study. I didn't write the article.
I found the study interesting.

Sclosages

What are Seamus' credentials?
Did he participate in the study?
Could Seamus re-write the article to reflect the 'reality' of the findings?

The_Valeyard

Sir Arthur Daley wrote: »

Is there wifi there?

Probably better reception than the Midlands.

dd972

There's a joke that in Heaven the chefs are French and the police English, in Hell it's the reverse...:pac:

nozzferrahhtoo

Sclosages wrote: »

They state in the article that there is no brain function once the heart stops?

It is hard to know what the article is trying to say, which I guess is the result of having science illiterate people write science articles, which alas happens all too often in our media and is something Ben Goldacre has lamented at length in the past.

For example the opening blurb of the article refers to "Clinical death" and then in the second paragraph of the article says "The brain has shut down completely".

The two are not the same thing. The author should learn which one she is trying to talk about and stick with it, or at least adumbrate the differences as she understands them and then make clear which one she is using and why.

The article also says nothing about HOW certain things were established. It says 40% of patients described having awareness while clinically dead. How did they establish this? They took their word for it maybe? How did they establish the memories and/or experiences of the patients actually were during the time period they claim they were?

It sounds like the whole study was just anecdotes without a single control used to verify any of it. So the study tells us nothing new at all. Just more anecdotes to add to the innumerable ones we have already.

The claim from Sam Parnia that the brain can not function at all when the heart stops, is simply false too. There has to be a period of heart death before brain death comes. Sam however is a known proponent of OBE and NDE and the after life. He really.... really really.... wants it to be true but has no evidence it actually is.

In fact it was Parnia who attempted recently to verify OBE by doing a controlled study. The results of which I have never managed to find, likely because it gave him no positive results so he ditched or buried it.

His approach was to do a double blind depositing of unmissable objects in places in random operating rooms where people having OBE in typical locations (above the operating table being the most common) could see them, but no one else would know they are there. But the objects would be so incongruous to the environment you simply could not miss it.

So far I have heard of NO positive result. Not even one. If even _one_ person came back and said "I was floating over there.... out of my body..... and did you know there is a large LED display on that cupboard there with the number 545 on it?" or "I was floating over there and.... you are not going to believe this.... over there on that storage unit there is..... I feel weird even saying it..... an artificial bonsai tree made entirely of pink sex toys"...... I would sit up and take notice that MAYBE there is something going on here.

But no. Not. One. Positive. Result.

But anecdotes in non controlled environments abound, all based on people swearing blind that the patient has information no one believes they could or should have.

Sclosages wrote: »

Eh, they were dead.

As above. Clinical death != Death.

Sclosages wrote: »

How can you explain someone dead, lying with eyes closed presumably, being able to describe everything that happened in the three minutes before they resuscitated him?

Thats my issue. You would have to establish that that actually _did_ happen before making demands people explain it. However the post from seamus will teach you many things.

Sclosages wrote: »

They were dead! If no-one had resuscitated them, they wouldn't have lived to tell the tale. So, they were dead.

You have a funny definition of "dead" that no one I have met before uses. Certainly no one in the scientific or medical community.

Sclosages wrote: »

I found the study interesting.

Did you read it? Or just the article?

kneemos

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Probably better reception than the Midlands.

Hell has Three.

The_Valeyard

kneemos wrote: »

Hell has Three.

Hell Is Three.

Sclosages

Ok, so the study and article are nonsense. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

seamus

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

The claim from Sam Parnia that the brain can not function at all when the heart stops, is simply false too. There has to be a period of heart death before brain death comes. Sam however is a known proponent of OBE and NDE and the after life. He really.... really really.... wants it to be true but has no evidence it actually is.

In fact it was Parnia who attempted recently to verify OBE by doing a controlled study. The results of which I have never managed to find, likely because it gave him no positive results so he ditched or buried it.

The study the article is based on appears to be Parnia's study, and to be fair while there is a certain amount of, "Don't write it off!" bias evident from the summary of the study, he doesn't seem to have tried to take any artistic licence or draw any firm conclusions from the results.

Although out of 2060 cases, they found just 2% indicated some detailed level of conscious awareness during the resus process, Dr Parnia still seems optimistic that this means "something" and needs more investigation.

It's hard to tell if it's just a pet topic of his or if there's some inner struggle there between his professional ethic and his personal beliefs, but in either case he doesn't appear to be allowing the latter to distort the former.

Frank Bullitt

"Where do you go after ya die? The same place you were before you were born, NOWHERE" - Bill Connolly

K4t

You don't go anywhere.

You're dead, dumb and done.

Haven't these 'scientists' something acutally important they could be researching?

Galwayguy35

K4t wrote: »

You don't go anywhere.

You're dead, dumb and done.

Haven't these 'scientists' something acutally important they could be researching?

You don't know that for certain.

Defender OF Faith

Gintonious wrote: »

"Where do you go after ya die? The same place you were before you were born, NOWHERE" - Bill Connolly

K4t wrote: »

You don't go anywhere.

You're dead, dumb and done.

Haven't these 'scientists' something actually important they could be researching?

It take as much belief to say that nothing happens after death then saying you go to heaven as according to the atheists there are no evidence for either since science cannot also prove either and will most likely to the end of time will never be able to prove anything beyond the living world but dont worry you will find out what will happen once you actually die

Canis Lupus

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

It take as much belief to say that nothing happens after death then saying you go to heaven as according to the atheists there are no evidence for either since science cannot also prove either and will most likely to the end of time will never be able to prove anything beyond the living world but dont worry you will find out what will happen once you actually die

Well to be pedantic, if it turns out to be the more likely oblivion I won't have any conciousness (sp?) to know it.

Red Pepper

Sclosages wrote: »

They were dead! If no-one had resuscitated them, they wouldn't have lived to tell the tale. So, they were dead.

60% of the time, they were dead every time.

Red Pepper

Defender OF Faith wrote: »

It take as much belief to say that nothing happens after death then saying you go to heaven...

That's utter nonsense and you know it. Heaven takes a lot more imagination and "belief" and convincing than simply nothing.