Is it time for an economically right wing party?

adocholiday

Do you think it's time that there was an economically right wing party in Ireland? I think that the time is ripe for a direct opposition to the multiple left wing idealists that we have. Just take a look at the Journal today for example. There is:

• an article outlining the socialist's proposals to introduce a 5% emergency tax on millionaires
• an article on TASC's proposal to increase the tax paid by people earning over 100k
• and an article about Sinn Féin wanting to abolish a few charges.

There are also loads of comments on the Central Bank proposals for mortgage caps where people are complaining because they would be 'shut out' by the banks (i.e. they would now have to buy houses that they can actually afford). And that's just one day. Look at loads of the threads here on boards, or comments on many other Irish websites. It's the same thing everywhere; take money from the people who are earning it and give it to those that aren't. And one of the biggest problems with all of this is that there is no proper opposition for these groups/parties aside from a few independents.

Now I am not trying to drag up an After Hours social welfare argument here. I have nothing in particular against social welfare or other benefits, especially for those who have come to need them during the past few years. What I do have a problem with is the over-extension of these benefits and the abuse of the system, all at the expense of the Irish tax payer and encouraged by the leftist groups. I know that there are many others in this country who feel the same. As a middle income PAYE earner I am sick to the eyeballs of certain groups of people moaning about their poor hand in life but doing nothing to try to help themselves except put the hand out. They expect everything for nothing and meanwhile the rest of us go to work and pay our way. A change is needed and is needed now.

I think I should also clarify that when I say right wing, I don't mean far-right. This is a discussion around economics and economic policy, nothing to do with immigration, racism, bigotry, religion or anything else.

BoJack Horseman

It's been asked before.

The answer is the same.
Yes, but the Irish people don't want it.

BobbyPropane

I like the way it is at the moment. If you can consider America to be economically right then I don't want this country to be ever anything like that.

Gloomtastic!

I think I started a thread a few years ago advocating a right wing party but I think it was Scofflaw who pointed out the following.

There are 600,000 trade union members. If you add on their dependents then you're looking at about 900,000 voters. If you add on the unemployed and their dependents then you're looking at another 600,000 voters. Pensioners - 500,000. So that's 2million voters out of a total voting population of approx. 3.1million.

Plus with a voter turnout of 60%, the vast majority will be members of the above - trade unions, unemployed and especially pensioners - all the people who are the biggest drain on this country's finances.

Halloween Jack

BobbyPropane wrote: »

I like the way it is at the moment. If you can consider America to be economically right then I don't want this country to be ever anything like that.

Yep, anybody who's a middle income earner and thinks they'd be better off under an economically right wing government is deluded imo.

Case in point the US, both parties there are more right leaning economically than our parties, the middle class over there have seen their incomes pretty much stagnate since the 60's while the richest portions of society do better and better.

Much like what the Tories are doing now, demonising the poor to distract the middle classes while they carve up services and flog them to their mates and dish out huge corporate subsidies.

Bannasidhe

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

I think I started a thread a few years ago advocating a right wing party but I think it was Scofflaw who pointed out the following.

There are 600,000 trade union members. If you add on their dependents then you're looking at about 900,000 voters. If you add on the unemployed and their dependents then you're looking at another 600,000 voters. Pensioners - 500,000. So that's 2million voters out of a total voting population of approx. 3.1million.

Plus with a voter turnout of 60%, the vast majority will be members of the above - trade unions, unemployed and especially pensioners - all the people who are the biggest drain on this country's finances.

How are Trade Union members a drain on the country's finances?

Surely they are employed and therefore contributing to the finances nor will all trade union members be at the lower end of the scale when it comes to tax, PRSI, USC etc etc. Or do you suppose 'high earners' are not members of trade unions?

hmmm

The last time I remember this mood in the country the PDs formed and got more than 20% of the vote. Enough to make a difference, but not enough to form a majority. The reason was broadly the same - the people who were paying the vast majority of the taxes were sick of seeing the income from their hard work stolen by a capricious government and squandered. A bout of sensible public finance management followed, and the country had an economic boom.

I don't think there's really a left/right divide in this country. There's a divide between those who take more from the state than they contribute, and those who contribute more than they take. Unfortunately it's in the interest of politicians to pander to the first group as they know they can be bought with taxpayers money. It's very hard to refuse a handout.

If you are someone who believes in well run public services financed by fair taxation there is no-one to vote for. FG are the closest, but they have descended into the same old squalid politics of croneyism and covering up incompetence. FF have bankrupted the country twice. Labour & SF are in a race to see who can spend taxpayers money the fastest. There are dozens of looper left parties who would tax us into the ground. It's a problem.

Godge

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Yep, anybody who's a middle income earner and thinks they'd be better off under an economically right wing government is deluded imo.

Case in point the US, both parties there are more right leaning economically than our parties, the middle class over there have seen their incomes pretty much stagnate since the 60's while the richest portions of society do better and better.

Much like what the Tories are doing now, demonising the poor to distract the middle classes while they carve up services and flog them to their mates and dish out huge corporate subsidies.

We need to distinguish between wealth-owners and income-earners.

In Ireland we don't tax the wealth-owners and we tax the income-earners heavily.

The creators of wealth are taxed while the inheritors of wealth are not.

A switch from income taxation to capital taxation and property taxation is badly needed.

Some of what Enda Kenny is saying is one half of this story.

Halloween Jack

Godge wrote: »

We need to distinguish between wealth-owners and income-earners.

In Ireland we don't tax the wealth-owners and we tax the income-earners heavily.

The creators of wealth are taxed while the inheritors of wealth are not.

A switch from income taxation to capital taxation and property taxation is badly needed.

Some of what Enda Kenny is saying is one half of this story.

I would agree with that, but do you think an economically right wing party would move to start taxing unearned wealth? Because that type of policy seems inherently socialist to me......

triple nipple

hmmm wrote:

The last time I remember this mood in the country the PDs formed and got more than 20% of the vote. Enough to make a difference, but not enough to form a majority. The reason was broadly the same - the people who were paying the vast majority of the taxes were sick of seeing the income from their hard work stolen by a capricious government and squandered. A bout of sensible public finance management followed, and the country had an economic boom.

lol a boom is a bad thing

Godge

Halloween Jack wrote: »

I would agree with that, but do you think an economically right wing party would move to start taxing unearned wealth? Because that type of policy seems inherently socialist to me......

Yes, that type of policy is inherently socialist yet you have Socialist Parties opposing property taxes in Ireland.

We have neither a genuine left-wing party nor a genuine right-wing party in Ireland.

For Reals

Fine Gael are pretty right wing economically in my view, Labour are hardly socialist and seem to nod along. Fianna Fail will be right wing if that's what the voters want.

I would question the whole premise in fact. Were not the bank, shareholder bailouts and rescuing of companies 'too big to fail' proof the right wing system doesn't work and it pretty much has no concrete fiscal policies solid enough to base a manifesto on for forming a party?

DarkyHughes

We have enough right-wing things in this country already & Fine Gael are fairly economically right-wing anyway. Irish society in the last 25 years has become more & more liberal and for the better in my view and most peoples view. We need to think economically like we do socially We need to be following a more Labor economic policy a real one not like the party that calls itself the Labor party. The Irish Labor party has as much to do with labor as the Soviet Union did with socialism - very little.

Bannasidhe

Godge wrote: »

Yes, that type of policy is inherently socialist yet you have Socialist Parties opposing property taxes in Ireland.

We have neither a genuine left-wing party nor a genuine right-wing party in Ireland.

I would consider myself a socialist and I opposed the form property tax took in Ireland.

My opposition was because I believe it should have been payable directly to local authorities (who would also need to be made far more accountable to the local electorate) and paid by all residents including those in local authority accommodation.

Godge

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I would consider myself a socialist and I opposed the form property tax took in Ireland.

My opposition was because I believe it should have been payable directly to local authorities (who would also need to be made far more accountable to the local electorate) and paid by all residents including those in local authority accommodation.

If it was paid by those renting local authority accommodation, then it is not a socialist property tax.

Godge

DarkyHughes wrote: »

We have enough right-wing things in this country already & Fine Gael are fairly economically right-wing anyway. Irish society in the last 25 years has become more & more liberal and for the better in my view and most peoples view. We need to think economically like we do socially We need to be following a more Labor economic policy a real one not like the party that calls itself the Labor party. The Irish Labor party has as much to do with labor as the Soviet Union did with socialism - very little.

We need lower income taxes and higher taxes on everything else.

The person who gets up off their backside should be rewarded while they are up off their backside.

If they sit back down to claim welfare or to live off rental income they are not much use to the rest of us.

Bannasidhe

Godge wrote: »

If it was paid by those renting local authority accommodation, then it is not a socialist property tax.

If it is to fund local services than it should be applied to all local residents.

That may not conform to your definition of socialism but it does to mine.

Manach

To the OP's question Yes. But to seek it in the template of the PDs might not be the best solution. Instead perhaps the success and economic vibrancy of Germany might be copied in their main conservative Christian Democratic Union. My brief understanding is that key platforms are a true partnership with the Unions to achieve sustainable growth and the encouragement of small family businesses as wealth creators in the economy, with welfare fairly distributed to the deserving cases. Thus there is no quick and easy solutions to Ireland's issues, but at least applying some of the CDU lessons learnt might be a start.

DarkyHughes

Godge wrote: »

We need lower income taxes and higher taxes on everything else.

The person who gets up off their backside should be rewarded while they are up off their backside.

If they sit back down to claim welfare or to live off rental income they are not much use to the rest of us.

I'm talking about people who really need it just to get buy & are genuinely seeking work. You'll never get a perfect safety net system anywhere in the world but I believe ours is the best (top 5 anyway) in the world & one of the few things I'm proud we have. You'll get a few scabs in every country that doesn't mean we should ruin welfare for people who depend on it to live. It's already been cut a few times in the last 6 years. There's some stuff at the higher end of things that could be cut.

I agree people who genuine hard work should be rewarded. And there's some TD's who sit on their hole who could do with a good kick up it.

coolemon

Oh yes, more right wing please.



http://www.thejournal.ie/ireland-has-a-lot-of-low-paying-jobs-1696421-Oct2014/

Halloween Jack

The thing is, if you look at either end of the ideological spectrum you'll ultimately find failure.

In the post war western works we tried social democracy and I would argue socially it worked quite well until we ended up with stagflation.

In reaction to that we pretty much went balls to wall market liberalism, which seemed to yield growth of a sort until it all blew up.

The fact that we don't have a strong right/left divide in ireland could be an advantage, if we had a real national conversation about what we as a society feel is important and focus on what works in pursuit of these aims.

First thing I would like to see is electoral reform. Abandoning multi seat constituencies would be my big bugbear, if a party is running 3 candidates in a locality, how can they win votes other than pandering to local interests, reforming that may rid us of the wretched localism of our national politics and leave td's to function as legislators rather than glorified councillors

mug_holder

Godge wrote: »

Yes, that type of policy is inherently socialist yet you have Socialist Parties opposing property taxes in Ireland.

We have neither a genuine left-wing party nor a genuine right-wing party in Ireland.

irish people ( for the most part ) are an idealogical free zone

mug_holder

Halloween Jack wrote: »

The thing is, if you look at either end of the ideological spectrum you'll ultimately find failure.

In the post war western works we tried social democracy and I would argue socially it worked quite well until we ended up with stagflation.

In reaction to that we pretty much went balls to wall market liberalism, which seemed to yield growth of a sort until it all blew up.

The fact that we don't have a strong right/left divide in ireland could be an advantage, if we had a real national conversation about what we as a society feel is important and focus on what works in pursuit of these aims.

First thing I would like to see is electoral reform. Abandoning multi seat constituencies would be my big bugbear, if a party is running 3 candidates in a locality, how can they win votes other than pandering to local interests, reforming that may rid us of the wretched localism of our national politics and leave td's to function as legislators rather than glorified councillors

our electoral system ( which i hate ) is a huge recipe for political fudge

sin_city

mug_holder wrote: »

our electoral system ( which i hate ) is a huge recipe for political fudge

Would you prefer first past the post?

The system is ok. The problem in Ireland and most countries is all the parties are the same bar a few small issues.

adocholiday

The reason I ask about the appetite for right wing politics in Ireland is because I think the recession has really given the left-wing a platform to increase their support and their exposure. Now more than ever they have the backing of a massive swathe of the population; however there are people like myself who are completely opposed to most of the left-wing proposals and ideals but have no party or group to really get behind. I'm at a point now where I don't think I'll even vote in the next General Election because I feel that there is no politician or party that deserves my vote. The parties that we have are too central and malleable. Their policies and decisions are all based around garnering for votes, they have no ideals as such of their own.

There are loads of threads popping up on boards and elsewhere of people who are very disillusioned with the current social welfare system, the health service, the power of the unions, and the complete and utter waste of resources in every facet of the public service. I just think that a right wing party could potentially provide a viable alternative to dealing with these issues and get people thinking. Of course right wing politics and economics have their own challenges and no one system is perfect. I'd just like to see it as an alternative and see what could be offered by way of change. The current main Irish parties are just not brave enough to make the required changes and the Left is not the answer.

Bannasidhe

adocholiday wrote: »

The reason I ask about the appetite for right wing politics in Ireland is because I think the recession has really given the left-wing a platform to increase their support and their exposure. Now more than ever they have the backing of a massive swathe of the population; however there are people like myself who are completely opposed to most of the left-wing proposals and ideals but no public representative bodies. The parties that we have are too central. Their policies and decisions are all based around garnering for votes, they have no ideals as such of their own.

There are loads of threads popping up on boards and elsewhere of people who are very disillusioned with the current social welfare system, the health service, the power of the unions, and the complete and utter waste of resources in every facet of the public service. I just think that a right wing party could potentially provide a viable alternative to dealing with these issues and get people thinking. Of course right wing politics and economics have their own challenges and no one system is perfect. I'd just like to see it as an alternative and see what could be offered by way of change. The current main Irish parties are just not brave enough to make the required changes and the Left is not the answer.

The Right isn't the answer either.

A complete reform of the political system to makes politicians fully accountable to the electorate is the answer. This will never happen while we allow politicians in charge of reforms. FG/LP have proven that.

We need to move beyond defining our politics by whether we broadly agree with people who sat on the right or the left of a French tennis court over 200 years ago.

Zubeneschamali

adocholiday wrote: »

I don't think I'll even vote in the next General Election because I feel that there is no politician or party that deserves my vote.

This is one of the strengths of our PR system. Even if you hate all of the politicians and parties on the ballot, you can still use your vote effectively. Just vote in reverse order: put the ones you hate most last, then the ones you hate a bit less, and so on to the top.

Halloween Jack

adocholiday wrote: »

The reason I ask about the appetite for right wing politics in Ireland is because I think the recession has really given the left-wing a platform to increase their support and their exposure. Now more than ever they have the backing of a massive swathe of the population; however there are people like myself who are completely opposed to most of the left-wing proposals and ideals but have no party or group to really get behind. I'm at a point now where I don't think I'll even vote in the next General Election because I feel that there is no politician or party that deserves my vote. The parties that we have are too central and malleable. Their policies and decisions are all based around garnering for votes, they have no ideals as such of their own.

There are loads of threads popping up on boards and elsewhere of people who are very disillusioned with the current social welfare system, the health service, the power of the unions, and the complete and utter waste of resources in every facet of the public service. I just think that a right wing party could potentially provide a viable alternative to dealing with these issues and get people thinking. Of course right wing politics and economics have their own challenges and no one system is perfect. I'd just like to see it as an alternative and see what could be offered by way of change. The current main Irish parties are just not brave enough to make the required changes and the Left is not the answer.

Do you have any concrete evidence of the wastage in every facet of the public sector etc?

In both social spending and the size of our public sector were at pretty much the OECD average and well below some of the 'right wing' countries in the lists.

Granted the health sector is a basket case but an argument could be made that we get a pretty decent bang for our buck from our public service and social spend.

I would agree that there is a large burden on middle earners which needs to be addressed but I'm not sure if a right wing government would do that

adocholiday

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Do you have any concrete evidence of the wastage in every facet of the public sector etc?

In both social spending and the size of our public sector were at pretty much the OECD average and well below some of the 'right wing' countries in the lists.

Granted the health sector is a basket case but an argument could be made that we get a pretty decent bang for our buck from our public service and social spend.

I worked in the Public Service for 7 years so have a first hand account of what it is like. The amount of wastage in the department I worked in through over-staffing, incredible amounts of time off and flexitime, far too much bureaucracy and middle management, union rules etc. is staggering. I could write a book on it. Meanwhile our front-line staff such as Gardaí, doctors, nurses etc. are overworked and underpaid. The unions then protect the admin staff who are the biggest drain on the resources that could be used to bolster the numbers where needed. This is the biggest problem in the HSE at the moment. They could wipe out a massive amount of the admin staff and recruit staff that is actually needed but it will never happen with the unions. That however is a whole other argument.

I'm going down a path of isolated arguments here which I don't want to do but it seems inevitable in a thread like this. I for one would love a party with the balls to stand up to the unions to get into power and go into the public sector and get rid of every single person that is surplus to requirements. But that's another thread entirely and I don't want to go down that path because it will derail the thread.

Gloomtastic!

adocholiday wrote: »

The reason I ask about the appetite for right wing politics in Ireland is because I think the recession has really given the left-wing a platform to increase their support and their exposure. Now more than ever they have the backing of a massive swathe of the population; however there are people like myself who are completely opposed to most of the left-wing proposals and ideals but have no party or group to really get behind. I'm at a point now where I don't think I'll even vote in the next General Election because I feel that there is no politician or party that deserves my vote. The parties that we have are too central and malleable. Their policies and decisions are all based around garnering for votes, they have no ideals as such of their own.

There are loads of threads popping up on boards and elsewhere of people who are very disillusioned with the current social welfare system, the health service, the power of the unions, and the complete and utter waste of resources in every facet of the public service. I just think that a right wing party could potentially provide a viable alternative to dealing with these issues and get people thinking. Of course right wing politics and economics have their own challenges and no one system is perfect. I'd just like to see it as an alternative and see what could be offered by way of change. The current main Irish parties are just not brave enough to make the required changes and the Left is not the answer.

Got to agree with all that you say.

There is Lucinda and her Reform Alliance (RA) that if they decide to run, have promised to deal with the vested interests that are the Social Partners.

But the RA have shown themselves to be religious nutjobs with their anti-abortion stance. That is not something I want to see in a modern Ireland, no matter what their other political promises may be.

Tabnabs

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Got to agree with all that you say.

There is Lucinda and her Reform Alliance (RA) that if they decide to run, have promised to deal with the vested interests that are the Social Partners.

But the RA have shown themselves to be religious nutjobs with their anti-abortion stance. That is not something I want to see in a modern Ireland, no matter what their other political promises may be.

Where a gap does exist is for a 'socially liberal and fiscally conservative' party. A party to represent the urban/surburban masses and younger voter groups. They could be a real challenge to the establishment.

BoJack Horseman

Tabnabs wrote: »

Where a gap does exist is for a 'socially liberal and fiscally conservative' party. A party to represent the urban/surburban masses and younger voter groups. They could be a real challenge to the establishment.

We had that, they were called the Progressive Democrats.

They were hated.

We may think there is a gap in the market, but the electorate said otherwise.

Tabnabs

Politics is a fickle game. I still say there is a gap and I would also say that Irish society has moved on and become less conservative and more progressive on social issues. Who knows what's lurking around the corner?

Halloween Jack

adocholiday wrote: »

I worked in the Public Service for 7 years so have a first hand account of what it is like. The amount of wastage in the department I worked in through over-staffing, incredible amounts of time off and flexitime, far too much bureaucracy and middle management, union rules etc. is staggering. I could write a book on it. Meanwhile our front-line staff such as Gardaí, doctors, nurses etc. are overworked and underpaid. The unions then protect the admin staff who are the biggest drain on the resources that could be used to bolster the numbers where needed. This is the biggest problem in the HSE at the moment. They could wipe out a massive amount of the admin staff and recruit staff that is actually needed but it will never happen with the unions. That however is a whole other argument.

I'm going down a path of isolated arguments here which I don't want to do but it seems inevitable in a thread like this. I for one would love a party with the balls to stand up to the unions to get into power and go into the public sector and get rid of every single person that is surplus to requirements. But that's another thread entirely and I don't want to go down that path because it will derail the thread.

So that's a no then, regarding concrete evidence that the public sector is wasteful etc?

Some anecdotal observances, are pretty much worthless to this debate. Also can you explain what exactly you would expect this right wing party to do to make our average sized, average costing system provide better outcomes?

Banjoxed

Tabnabs wrote: »

Where a gap does exist is for a 'socially liberal and fiscally conservative' party. A party to represent the urban/surburban masses and younger voter groups. They could be a real challenge to the establishment.

And the last time that happened..

adocholiday

Halloween Jack wrote: »

So that's a no then, regarding concrete evidence that the public sector is wasteful etc?

Some anecdotal observances, are pretty much worthless to this debate. Also can you explain what exactly you would expect this right wing party to do to make our average sized, average costing system provide better outcomes?

No I don't have any factual evidence, fair point. I'm sure I could drum up some facts and figures if I did a bit of digging. However no disrespect to you but isn't it obvious? You don't need figures to take a look at the state of our public services. Facts and figures only tell a small part of the story. Can you honestly say that you are impressed with our health service? That there are enough doctors and nurses? That our schools are adequate? That there is enough accountability for error or poor standards? That the Gardaí are fully resourced? That there isn't too much administration staff in all areas and not enough front-line staff?

It's painfully obvious and you don't need a full report of figures to see it. I don't see why anecdotal evidence should be completely disregarded. I worked in the area enough to see everything that was wrong in the particular area I worked in. My mother works frontline in the HSE, I see all of the grievances that she has in her job and how overworked she is. Most people in this country have relatives that work in the public sector in some form. Ask them if they feel that their sector is well run and adequate.

But this is derailing the thread. We are talking about Right-Wing vs Left-Wing here. Can you explain why you think the public sector is fine? I believe that a right wing attitude would finally kick the unions into touch and claw back the power that they have gained over the years. The union movement is a great thing to protect workers and provide a certain level of security to an everyday worker but they have far surpassed their remit. Sweeping reforms are required in the public sector and the only way those reforms will be achieved is to finally stand up to the unions. Staff who are under-performing could finally be held accountable and they could be replaced with ambitious, energetic people. Sweeteners such as flexi-time arrangements, tenured promotions, and undeserved increments could be abolished. Our public sector could be great and provide services at far less cost if we could achieve this and a right leaning party is exactly the kind to implement this. It is an ambitious pipe dream to be fair, but that's the truth of it.

Halloween Jack

Banjoxed wrote: »

And the last time that happened..

It's a pity none of the fringe parties can ever resist going into coalition, you could argue that labour may have been better served staying in opposition, they'd probably have had higher numbers than Sinn Feinn in the recent poll. While they'll probably avoid the fate of the greens and the pd's their reputation has been damaged and they've lost a lot of support.

Tabnabs

Banjoxed wrote: »

And the last time that happened..

Increased pensions, minimum wage, increased allowances, tax cuts... sounds more like SF to me :rolleyes:



So, yeah - fiscally conservative, socially liberal. That's a party I'd get behind.

Halloween Jack

adocholiday wrote: »

No I don't have any factual evidence, fair point. I'm sure I could drum up some facts and figures if I did a bit of digging. However no disrespect to you but isn't it obvious? You don't need figures to take a look at the state of our public services. Facts and figures only tell a small part of the story. Can you honestly say that you are impressed with our health service? That there are enough doctors and nurses? That our schools are adequate? That there is enough accountability for error or poor standards? That the Gardaí are fully resourced? That there isn't too much administration staff in all areas and not enough front-line staff?

It's painfully obvious and you don't need a full report of figures to see it. I don't see why anecdotal evidence should be completely disregarded. I worked in the area enough to see everything that was wrong in the particular area I worked in. My mother works frontline in the HSE, I see all of the grievances that she has in her job and how overworked she is. Most people in this country have relatives that work in the public sector in some form. Ask them if they feel that their sector is well run and adequate.

But this is derailing the thread. We are talking about Right-Wing vs Left-Wing here. Can you explain why you think the public sector is fine? I believe that a right wing attitude would finally kick the unions into touch and claw back the power that they have gained over the years. The union movement is a great thing to protect workers and provide a certain level of security to an everyday worker but they have far surpassed their remit. Sweeping reforms are required in the public sector and the only way those reforms will be achieved is to finally stand up to the unions. Staff who are under-performing could finally be held accountable and they could be replaced with ambitious, energetic people. Sweeteners such as flexi-time arrangements, tenured promotions, and undeserved increments could be abolished. Our public sector could be great and provide services at far less cost if we could achieve this and a right leaning party is exactly the kind to implement this. It is an ambitious pipe dream to be fair, but that's the truth of it.

Firstly I work front-line public service and to an extent can relate to a hell of a lot of the anecdotal stuff you mention. There is waste, there are inefficiencies, there are things which go on which I find borderline obscene.

However, I realise that this is my observed experience of a very small representation of the public service at large, that's why it's pretty redundant to the discussion we are having. If you take a broader view, and try and compare our public services with similar nations they tend to fare out reasonably well.

The more relevant issue for me is that even if we could provide data proving that our services were endemically useless, I still don't believe a right wing government would necessarily improve matters. In my view right wing reform means cuts and or privatisation, which is fine by me if it works, but international experience would have me believe it doesn't.

Like I say id like to move beyond ideology and have political parties focus on good policy that is smarter and has better outcomes.

Gloomtastic!

Banjoxed wrote: »

And the last time that happened..

Ahern bent over backwards to give the unions and the rest of the Social Partners whatever they wanted. He is the reason why we are still borrowing €2billion every three months.

Heard on the radio recently that all the paperwork for the now infamous PS Benchmarking studies of the Ahern era have been shredded. Would be interesting to know if that was true........

Godge

adocholiday wrote: »

No I don't have any factual evidence, fair point. I'm sure I could drum up some facts and figures if I did a bit of digging. However no disrespect to you but isn't it obvious?

Very easy to drum up facts and figures.

http://www.ipa.ie/pdf/Public_Sector_Trends_2013.pdf

"Ireland’s score on the quality of public administration index remained the same in 2013 as in 2012, above the European average. Ireland came 5th of the EU28 on this indicator in 2013"

adocholiday wrote: »

You don't need figures to take a look at the state of our public services. Facts and figures only tell a small part of the story.

adocholiday wrote: »

Can you honestly say that you are impressed with our health service? That there are enough doctors and nurses? That our schools are adequate? That there is enough accountability for error or poor standards? That the Gardaí are fully resourced?

Not much problem with policing, maybe could do better.

"The level of confidence in the police in Ireland is around the European average, at 74 per cent in 2012."

Education isn't so good.

"Ireland delivers an average level of educational efficiency when comparing reading performance to spending per student across Europe. However, a low
level of efficiency is shown when comparing maths performance to spending"

Health is surprisingly good, no measure below average, a few above.

"Ireland’s hospitals display comparatively high levels of efficiency compared to other European countries with regard to length of stay in hospital."

" Ireland performs well compared to most European countries with regard to both life expectancy at birth and healthy life expectancy at birth."

adocholiday wrote: »

That there isn't too much administration staff in all areas and not enough front-line staff?

What do you mean by this? Is somebody processing passports or tax return frontline or back-office? This is a constant criticism thrown at the public service yet I have never seen any study suggest this.

"• Among the countries where a time standard was set for processing of personal tax returns, Ireland performs particularly well, with regard to both paper and e-filed returns. Returns are processed between two and nine times faster than in most other EU countries participating in the OECD survey"

adocholiday wrote: »

It's painfully obvious and you don't need a full report of figures to see it. I don't see why anecdotal evidence should be completely disregarded. I worked in the area enough to see everything that was wrong in the particular area I worked in. My mother works frontline in the HSE, I see all of the grievances that she has in her job and how overworked she is. Most people in this country have relatives that work in the public sector in some form. Ask them if they feel that their sector is well run and adequate.

The problems in the public sector are mainly in the middle management area. Whether it is assistant or deputy principals in schools, or nursing management grades in hospitals, the management of people and performance is particularly poor. This is not solved by a "fire-them-all-response" but needs a change in culture and better training of managers, both of which cost money we don't have.

adocholiday wrote: »

But this is derailing the thread. We are talking about Right-Wing vs Left-Wing here. Can you explain why you think the public sector is fine?

The only evidence that the public sector is not fine is anecdotal. It is actually amazing, given the following statistic, that the public sector doesn't have more problems showing up in the stats.

"Public service employment relative to the population was relatively stable at between 70 and 73 public sector employees per 000 population up to 2008, but has been dropping since 2008 and was at 63.2 public service employees per 000 population in 2013."

adocholiday wrote: »

I believe that a right wing attitude would finally kick the unions into touch and claw back the power that they have gained over the years. The union movement is a great thing to protect workers and provide a certain level of security to an everyday worker but they have far surpassed their remit. Sweeping reforms are required in the public sector and the only way those reforms will be achieved is to finally stand up to the unions. Staff who are under-performing could finally be held accountable and they could be replaced with ambitious, energetic people. Sweeteners such as flexi-time arrangements, tenured promotions, and undeserved increments could be abolished. Our public sector could be great and provide services at far less cost if we could achieve this and a right leaning party is exactly the kind to implement this. It is an ambitious pipe dream to be fair, but that's the truth of it.

Thatcher tried to kick the unions into touch and ruined Britain for a generation.

Do you really expect that the abolition of flexi-time arrangements and increments will increase overall morale and productivity in the public service? Carrot and stick, you are all stick, where is the carrot?

Halloween Jack

Great post, particularly in identifying the middle management problem in the public service.

In my experience staff in these posts don't even necessarily see themselves as managers, rather administrators of mor responsibility.

For Reals

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Firstly I work front-line public service and to an extent can relate to a hell of a lot of the anecdotal stuff you mention. There is waste, there are inefficiencies, there are things which go on which I find borderline obscene.

However, I realise that this is my observed experience of a very small representation of the public service at large,...

True. I have a good buddy woirking in Admin. for Dublin City Council and the abuse they take while on counter duty is unreal. I'm sure they've there slack time too but I would not take a job where I'm the whipping boy for some councillor or other. Also the state of our hospitals can't be put at the door of Admins, or while I'm on it, dole spongers. These are the go to for all inadequate politicians.

But note, the unions are doing their job. If you have a problem with them, it's like having a problem with the government, you may not agree, but if that's what some people want.....

adocholiday

Already this is turning into a public sector debate which is what I wanted to avoid but to avoid being accused of running away from the argument I'll address the point. We could argue about specific public sector issues until we are blue in the face and get nowhere.

Godge quotes a lot of facts and figures there but that's only a small part of the story. What are those satisfaction figures based on? What sample size was used? Was the sample population mainly in Dublin or was it spread evenly nationwide? This extract from page 9 of the report is particularly relevant:

This survey data largely comprises small-scale samples of opinion from academics, managers and experts in the business community. The survey data is thus limited both in terms of its overall reliability and the fact that it represents the views of limited sections of the community

You could also question the impartiality of the IPA who issued the report. So I would take a lot of those figures with a large pinch of salt. It cannot be denied that there is a great deal of dissatisfaction with the entirety of our Public Service, especially the health department.

When I refer to admin staff I mean people in the HSE or the Gardaí for example who are not frontline staff. The people who deal with all of the paperwork, finance etc. Of course there is a requirement for such staff but not the amount of them that are there. There are 7 management layers in the HSE. What kind of organisation needs 7 different management layers? And did you know that when the health boards were disbanded and the HSE formed, with the goal of making everything more efficient, not a single person was laid off? There was also a raft of promotions for people as a sweetener. Now you show me any organisation who, in order to improve their efficiencies and streamline operations, will not only keep every single staff member, but indeed promote some of them into middle management where they will do nothing different in their job than what they were doing before. Your point in relation to middle management is spot on though.

Anyway we're now getting off the point of my thread here and I'm writing walls of text about the public service and not the politics around it.

The problem with the public sector is pure and simple. The unions. They have far too much power. Look at SIPTU today for a prime example. Taking the whole hospitality industry to task over the 9% VAT issue. They have far too much power and influence. Do you think Rosie Hackett or James Connolly envisioned the unions to be what they are? Executives earning massive amounts of money and holding the country to ransom to justify their existence and give the illusion that they care about workers. They'd be turning in their graves looking at what they've become. I have zero problem with unions when they operate as they are meant to and wouldn't want them abolished by any means. They need to do what they're meant to do: protect worker's basic rights. They have long overstepped that mark.

Banjoxed

adocholiday wrote: »

Already this is turning into a public sector debate which is what I wanted to avoid but to avoid being accused of running away from the argument I'll address the point. We could argue about specific public sector issues until we are blue in the face and get nowhere.

Godge quotes a lot of facts and figures there but that's only a small part of the story. What are those satisfaction figures based on? What sample size was used? Was the sample population mainly in Dublin or was it spread evenly nationwide? This extract from page 9 of the report is particularly relevant:



You could also question the impartiality of the IPA who issued the report. So I would take a lot of those figures with a large pinch of salt. It cannot be denied that there is a great deal of dissatisfaction with the entirety of our Public Service, especially the health department.

When I refer to admin staff I mean people in the HSE or the Gardaí for example who are not frontline staff. The people who deal with all of the paperwork, finance etc. Of course there is a requirement for such staff but not the amount of them that are there. There are 7 management layers in the HSE. What kind of organisation needs 7 different management layers? And did you know that when the health boards were disbanded and the HSE formed, with the goal of making everything more efficient, not a single person was laid off? There was also a raft of promotions for people as a sweetener. Now you show me any organisation who, in order to improve their efficiencies and streamline operations, will not only keep every single staff member, but indeed promote some of them into middle management where they will do nothing different in their job than what they were doing before. Your point in relation to middle management is spot on though.

Anyway we're now getting off the point of my thread here and I'm writing walls of text about the public service and not the politics around it.

The problem with the public sector is pure and simple. The unions. They have far too much power. Look at SIPTU today for a prime example. Taking the whole hospitality industry to task over the 9% VAT issue. They have far too much power and influence. Do you think Rosie Hackett or James Connolly envisioned the unions to be what they are? Executives earning massive amounts of money and holding the country to ransom to justify their existence and give the illusion that they care about workers. They'd be turning in their graves looking at what they've become. I have zero problem with unions when they operate as they are meant to and wouldn't want them abolished by any means. They need to do what they're meant to do: protect worker's basic rights. They have long overstepped that mark.

Given the quote from Connolly in the garden of JCMH in Blanchardstown is "Our demands are most moderate, we only want the world" I would imagine that Connolly was not some kind of centre-right moderate figure acceptable to the Irish professional classes, then or now.

MD1983

Godge wrote: »

We need to distinguish between wealth-owners and income-earners.



The creators of wealth are taxed while the inheritors of wealth are not.

.

a gift/inheritance tax at 33% is more than enough. yes there are some tax reliefs mainly for businesses/farmers but badly needed IMO

adocholiday

Banjoxed wrote: »

Given the quote from Connolly in the garden of JCMH in Blanchardstown is "Our demands are most moderate, we only want the world" I would imagine that Connolly was not some kind of centre-right moderate figure acceptable to the Irish professional classes, then or now.

I was just making a point about the Unions. Connolly was obviously a militant socialist. Someone in his position would be sickened that a leader of a trade union would live a life of luxury in a direct contradiction to those they are meant to represent

Godge

adocholiday wrote: »

Already this is turning into a public sector debate which is what I wanted to avoid but to avoid being accused of running away from the argument I'll address the point. We could argue about specific public sector issues until we are blue in the face and get nowhere.

Godge quotes a lot of facts and figures there but that's only a small part of the story. What are those satisfaction figures based on? What sample size was used? Was the sample population mainly in Dublin or was it spread evenly nationwide? This extract from page 9 of the report is particularly relevant:



You could also question the impartiality of the IPA who issued the report. So I would take a lot of those figures with a large pinch of salt. It cannot be denied that there is a great deal of dissatisfaction with the entirety of our Public Service, especially the health department.

When I refer to admin staff I mean people in the HSE or the Gardaí for example who are not frontline staff. The people who deal with all of the paperwork, finance etc. Of course there is a requirement for such staff but not the amount of them that are there. There are 7 management layers in the HSE. What kind of organisation needs 7 different management layers? And did you know that when the health boards were disbanded and the HSE formed, with the goal of making everything more efficient, not a single person was laid off? There was also a raft of promotions for people as a sweetener. Now you show me any organisation who, in order to improve their efficiencies and streamline operations, will not only keep every single staff member, but indeed promote some of them into middle management where they will do nothing different in their job than what they were doing before. Your point in relation to middle management is spot on though.

Anyway we're now getting off the point of my thread here and I'm writing walls of text about the public service and not the politics around it.

The problem with the public sector is pure and simple. The unions. They have far too much power. Look at SIPTU today for a prime example. Taking the whole hospitality industry to task over the 9% VAT issue. They have far too much power and influence. Do you think Rosie Hackett or James Connolly envisioned the unions to be what they are? Executives earning massive amounts of money and holding the country to ransom to justify their existence and give the illusion that they care about workers. They'd be turning in their graves looking at what they've become. I have zero problem with unions when they operate as they are meant to and wouldn't want them abolished by any means. They need to do what they're meant to do: protect worker's basic rights. They have long overstepped that mark.

Re-read the report and re-read my post. I did not refer much to the satisfaction-type statistics as I share your concerns about those. However, most of the report was looking at OECD and EC statistics from an Irish viewpoint - it is not a case of the IPA putting a slant on the figures. Some of the sectors came out badly as I pointed out - the value for money of our PISA results is questionable for example.

I thought you were actually genuinely interested in the information. Dismissing it out of hand and turning to a rant against unions doesn't give me hope. Unions are a lot more than protecting workers' basic rights. See the link for some information:

http://www.cwu.ie/_uploads/documents/downloads/What_can_a_trade_union_do_for_me.pdf

Unions are not interested in profit margins for business owners. They are only interested in workers wages. One thing I can say for certain is that the disappearance of unions from the private sector can be linked to the increasing profits for business-owners at the expense of ordinary employees.

Godge

MD1983 wrote: »

a gift/inheritance tax at 33% is more than enough. yes there are some tax reliefs mainly for businesses/farmers but badly needed IMO

The tax rate for inheritance/gifts should be higher than the tax rate for income.

If I work for five years and earn €70,000 a year, why should I pay 52% tax on those earnings when someone else can sit on their arse for the five years and only pay 33% tax on an inheritance of €350,000?

You may be right that 33% is more than enough, but income tax should be less.

Gloomtastic!

Godge wrote: »

Unions are not interested in profit margins for business owners. They are only interested in workers wages. One thing I can say for certain is that the disappearance of unions from the private sector can be linked to the increasing profits for business-owners at the expense of ordinary employees.

I can generalise it better. Trade Unions are parasites. They feed off their hosts until they kill them. They then move on to their next host.......

titan18

Tabnabs wrote: »

Where a gap does exist is for a 'socially liberal and fiscally conservative' party. A party to represent the urban/surburban masses and younger voter groups. They could be a real challenge to the establishment.

I'd vote for that party. If they were anyway decent, I'd join that party and help out.