Is it time for an economically right wing party?

marienbad

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

I can generalise it better. Trade Unions are parasites. They feed off their hosts until they kill them. They then move on to their next host.......

I thought that was the Corporate Raiders no ?

Gloomtastic!

marienbad wrote: »

I thought that was the Corporate Raiders no ?

Trade unions got there first. :rolleyes:

adocholiday

Godge wrote: »

I thought you were actually genuinely interested in the information. Dismissing it out of hand and turning to a rant against unions doesn't give me hope. Unions are a lot more than protecting workers' basic rights

Sorry I am interested in it and it was interesting reading. I was just wary about the validity of the points and I wasn't dismissing them out of hand.

I have a particular dislike for the unions and the public sector and my own personal experience of both has caused that. It would take quite a lot of persuading to change my opinion of them. Precisely the reason that I don't want to get bogged down in such an argument that could have its own thread by right.

jank

Bannasidhe wrote: »

If it is to fund local services than it should be applied to all local residents.

That may not conform to your definition of socialism but it does to mine.

This is something I would agree with. Everyone pays (which is actually socialist) Vs what the Irish left want (someone else pays but not 'us')

Property taxes should be collected and spent locally. Phil Hogan did half the job here with its introduction, the amalgamation of local councils and town councils and finally giving local councils the authority to reduce or increase the rate by a band of 15%.

What needs to happen now is for central government to cut the umbilical cord and say to councils that what money you get from property tax funds your council, make do! However, this would see large rural areas of Ireland lose out thus damaging FG heartlands. So we have this half measure at the moment.

Water rates too should have been local but that is now another story.

jank

Unions destroyed the HSE with their demands before the organisation ever had a chance to get going. There is enough funding going into Health at the moment when comparing other countries, the issue is waste and efficiency.

To reform it you have to either bring the unions fully on board which means big pay rises and promotions (not really feasible today) or kick them to touch and let people go, reform where its needed.

Senator/Prof John Crown who is by no means a right wing fanatic has been going on about this issue for the best part of ten years. He even so far as said that it would be cheaper to pay the wasters in admin and middle management to stay home as they would save on costs and the systems inefficiency would improve. It's that bad!

adocholiday

I wonder why it is that right wing parties are gaining more and more support across Europe but are non-existent here. Back in May there was a massive sway to the right across Europe in the elections. In the UK by-election the UKIP have achieved their first ever seat and more will certainly follow. The Swedish Democrats are gaining a strong foothold in politics there. The Alternative for Germany party are way up. An opinion poll in France recently indicated that Marie Le Pen will win the 2017 general election in France in keeping with the upward motion of her party. These are all huge economies and should the Right take power in them, they would radically change the European financial and social landscape.

I wouldn't be in favour of such radical parties in Ireland. Moderate Right would be the ideal scenario in my opinion. But it is clear that people across Europe are tired of the central or left leaning policies that have dominated Europe's finance policies for years. Meanwhile we have 2 by-elections happening today and we are just going to get the same kind of politicians into the vacant seats.

Tabnabs

Add Norway to the list, they dumped their Labour party for a coalition of two right wings parties in 2013.

Permabear

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BoJack Horseman

Permabear wrote: »

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Its a common tale.

IW should be more efficient than 30+ councils managing water, however the unions blocked redundancies that would inevitably arise from overlapping responsibilities.
Then the left shriek at the inevitable waste of money.

Waste services privatised across the country.
Unions blocked those redundancies tpo., so very little in the way of savings was ever really realised.

Best financial practice should be a constitutional obligation.

adocholiday

So Paul Murphy gets elected. Do the people who vote for him even read his manifesto? Some of his proposals are off the wall completely. All of his campaign was completely focused on the abolishing of the water charges and practically nothing else of substance. I think that result has just answered the question of the thread.

Gloomtastic!

adocholiday wrote: »

So Paul Murphy gets elected. Do the people who vote for him even read his manifesto? Some of his proposals are off the wall completely. All of his campaign was completely focused on the abolishing of the water charges and practically nothing else of substance. I think that result has just answered the question of the thread.

Further proof that Irish people leave their brains at home when they go to vote.

Permabear

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The_Captain

In a society where employers are making redunancies and not hiring, I don't understand the logic of blaming the jobless on a poor economy.

To say that anyone who has lost their job is a lazy drain on society is objectively wrong.
If you want to improve the economy, surely it would be smarter to focus on real job creation as opposed to cutting benefits.

This government has no interest in job creation, they're even 'hiring' job bridge interns to do their own light office work.

adocholiday

The_Captain wrote: »

To say that anyone who has lost their job is a lazy drain on society is objectively wrong.
If you want to improve the economy, surely it would be smarter to focus on real job creation as opposed to cutting benefits.

I didn't for one second say that anyone who lost their job was a lazy drain on society. In fact I distinctly said in my OP that I have no problem with social welfare, especially for those who have needed it in recent years. It's the abuse and mismanagement of the system that I have an issue with.

Of course job creation should be the #1 goal, however until people are actually better off going to work than they are on the dole then you can create as many jobs as you like, they won't be taken.

Take this common scenario in Ireland; a young mother with 1 or more children declaring as a single parent. She gets a lone parent allowance, a council house or rent allowance, medical card, children's allowance and a free travel pass. She may or may not also have a partner living with her undeclared who is also on the dole. Why would they both give up that to work in a minimum wage job, having to lose the lone parent allowance and pay increased rent which will be means tested for both of them. Potentially lose the medical card too and the free travel pass. Not to mention now having to pay for childcare and work expenses like lunch, travel etc.

The above paragraph sums up every single thing that is wrong with the Irish welfare system. Create all the jobs you like, you won't fill them with the people who are abusing the broken system. Fix the social welfare system and make it viable for people to choose to work over sitting at home all day on the country's dime.

marienbad

adocholiday wrote: »

I didn't for one second say that anyone who lost their job was a lazy drain on society. In fact I distinctly said in my OP that I have no problem with social welfare, especially for those who have needed it in recent years. It's the abuse and mismanagement of the system that I have an issue with.

Of course job creation should be the #1 goal, however until people are actually better off going to work than they are on the dole then you can create as many jobs as you like, they won't be taken.

Take this common scenario in Ireland; a young mother with 1 or more children declaring as a single parent. She gets a lone parent allowance, a council house or rent allowance, medical card, children's allowance and a free travel pass. She may or may not also have a partner living with her undeclared who is also on the dole. Why would they both give up that to work in a minimum wage job, having to lose the lone parent allowance and pay increased rent which will be means tested for both of them. Potentially lose the medical card too and the free travel pass. Not to mention now having to pay for childcare and work expenses like lunch, travel etc.

The above paragraph sums up every single thing that is wrong with the Irish welfare system. Create all the jobs you like, you won't fill them with the people who are abusing the broken system. Fix the social welfare system and make it viable for people to choose to work over sitting at home all day on the country's dime.

Then why was unemployment less than 5% during the boom times ?

Red Alert

Don't assume that all trade union members wouldn't be in favour of such a party. I'd much rather a public service that offered permanent jobs rather than the temporary contracts like I'm stuck with, but one in which it was easier (read: usual practice) to fire non performers and award increments based on measurable performance improvements and not length of service. A good few of my friends who are in unions would also share similar views. So, I wouldn't discount all trade union members.

Gloomtastic!

The_Captain wrote: »

I don't understand the logic of blaming the jobless on a poor economy.

'Jobless' should include the pensioners. According to yesterday's Indo, they are the only section of Irish society better off since 2009 (by about €50pa). Another €100 thrown at them yesterday to pay for their water tax. Trying to buy votes is not good for economy.

Gloomtastic!

Red Alert wrote: »

Don't assume that all trade union members wouldn't be in favour of such a party. I'd much rather a public service that offered permanent jobs rather than the temporary contracts like I'm stuck with, but one in which it was easier (read: usual practice) to fire non performers and award increments based on measurable performance improvements and not length of service. A good few of my friends who are in unions would also share similar views. So, I wouldn't discount all trade union members.

Some trade union members may be in favour of a right wing party but trade union officials would definitely not be. They would be screaming from the rooftops against such a party.

The_Captain

adocholiday wrote: »

I didn't for one second say that anyone who lost their job was a lazy drain on society. In fact I distinctly said in my OP that I have no problem with social welfare, especially for those who have needed it in recent years. It's the abuse and mismanagement of the system that I have an issue with.

Of course job creation should be the #1 goal, however until people are actually better off going to work than they are on the dole then you can create as many jobs as you like, they won't be taken.

Take this common scenario in Ireland; a young mother with 1 or more children declaring as a single parent. She gets a lone parent allowance, a council house or rent allowance, medical card, children's allowance and a free travel pass. She may or may not also have a partner living with her undeclared who is also on the dole. Why would they both give up that to work in a minimum wage job, having to lose the lone parent allowance and pay increased rent which will be means tested for both of them. Potentially lose the medical card too and the free travel pass. Not to mention now having to pay for childcare and work expenses like lunch, travel etc.

The above paragraph sums up every single thing that is wrong with the Irish welfare system. Create all the jobs you like, you won't fill them with the people who are abusing the broken system. Fix the social welfare system and make it viable for people to choose to work over sitting at home all day on the country's dime.

You're working on the assumption that people with no job would rather stay at home collecting welfare than actually working.
Create real jobs with career progression and you don't end up with the issue of people being afraid of taking up minimum wage jobs for fear of losing benefits.
While I think the social welfare system is far too generous in certain circumstances, there's no point in cutting it until there's a real alternative to not working

Permabear

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The_Captain

Permabear wrote: »

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And if there was actually jobs for them to find, you'd be amazed at how quickly they'd find jobs.

End of the day, the country as a whole would be better at providing incentives to employers to take on new workers than to cut benefits to people with no jobs

marienbad

Permabear wrote: »

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The unemployment figures during the boom would indicate that people want to work and based on that before we get to lambasting the 'scroungers we should concentrate on providing as best an environment for job creation as we can.

Then lets talk about 'scroungers'

Godge

marienbad wrote: »

The unemployment figures during the boom would indicate that people want to work and based on that before we get to lambasting the 'scroungers we should concentrate on providing as best an environment for job creation as we can.

Then lets talk about 'scroungers'

The unemployment figures during the boom did not include the one parent family payment nor disability payments.

marienbad

Godge wrote: »

The unemployment figures during the boom did not include the one parent family payment nor disability payments.

Sorrry , I don't get you. Can you elaborate ?

titan18

Anyone want to set this party up? I'll join, sick of the joke in government atm. They're even meant to be most right wing, so we're ****ed if any of the others get in power.

Permabear

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adocholiday

titan18 wrote: »

Anyone want to set this party up? I'll join, sick of the joke in government atm. They're even meant to be most right wing, so we're ****ed if any of the others get in power.

You'd have my vote, any many many others

marienbad

Permabear wrote: »

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The unemployment rate from 2004 to late 2008 was under 5%

Permabear

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UncleChael

I think today's budget answered the OP's question. I think its now a case that we(working people), absolutely NEED a right wing party and someone to fight our corner.

marienbad

Permabear wrote: »

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I don't think so , indeed the dole has been increasing and is probably way too high at this stage , but for 5 years of those increases people choose to work right up until we the economic implosion .

What caused the rate to rise was job losses not people choosing to be on the dole

The_Captain

Permabear wrote: »

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€165 - €185 = Good incentive for people to finds work, hence the 5% unemployment
€188 = no incentive, everyone's a scrounger sitting on their hole not bothering to get work


Yeah, quality point mate :rolleyes:

Godge

The_Captain wrote: »

€165 - €185 = Good incentive for people to finds work, hence the 5% unemployment
€188 = no incentive, everyone's a scrounger sitting on their hole not bothering to get work


Yeah, quality point mate :rolleyes:

I think you miss the point. Those people who lost jobs in 2008 got jobs in previous years. Say you were working six years in 2008, well you came off the dole in 2002 when the rate was €118.80.

marienbad

Godge wrote: »

I think you miss the point. Those people who lost jobs in 2008 got jobs in previous years. Say you were working six years in 2008, well you came off the dole in 2002 when the rate was €118.80.

This whole thing was investigated on Matt Cooper some months back with a lad from the ESRI and they found the whole idea was unfounded. Their is a core everywhere that have no intention of ever working no matter what the rate is and most of them are unemployable at this stage. If I can find a link I will post it.

And rates are possibly too high, no question of that, but before we get to those discussions we should recognise that given a chance people want to work . So lets create that work environment again, easier said than done I know.

Valmont

Despite what some people would have you believe, those on the dole are not stupid. If they can stay at home without doing anything for fifty euro less a week than they would get taking abuse from customers and managers in Tesco then they are going to stay at home. The commuting costs from the bedroom to the sitting room free up more cash too, not to mention medical cards.

Considering the government has such a poor records of 'creating jobs' for unemployed people or destroying them when they do have them, perhaps it's time for a political party to put the job creation power back in the hands of individual businesses. Less regulations, less taxation - abolish the minimum wage and youth unemployment would be solved overnight.

marienbad

Valmont wrote: »

Despite what some people would have you believe, those on the dole are not stupid. If they can stay at home without doing anything for fifty euro less a week than they would get taking abuse from customers and managers in Tesco then they are going to stay at home. The commuting costs from the bedroom to the sitting room free up more cash too, not to mention medical cards.

Considering the government has such a poor records of 'creating jobs' for unemployed people or destroying them when they do have them, perhaps it's time for a political party to put the job creation power back in the hands of individual businesses. Less regulations, less taxation - abolish the minimum wage and youth unemployment would be solved overnight.

Ah the minimum wage bogey again

Halloween Jack

Valmont wrote: »

Despite what some people would have you believe, those on the dole are not stupid. If they can stay at home without doing anything for fifty euro less a week than they would get taking abuse from customers and managers in Tesco then they are going to stay at home. The commuting costs from the bedroom to the sitting room free up more cash too, not to mention medical cards.

Considering the government has such a poor records of 'creating jobs' for unemployed people or destroying them when they do have them, perhaps it's time for a political party to put the job creation power back in the hands of individual businesses. Less regulations, less taxation - abolish the minimum wage and youth unemployment would be solved overnight.

So you think that people who won't choose to get out of bed to work when the minimum wage is 8.65, will magically choose to reenter the workforce when presumably the market sets wages for such jobs at a lower rate? Sound logic.

In actual fact If you left it to employers to set whatever wage you like some of the 860,000 workers who get paid so little that they pay no tax on their meager earnings would probably sign on.

Permabear

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p1akuw47h5r3it

titan18 wrote: »

Anyone want to set this party up? I'll join, sick of the joke in government atm. They're even meant to be most right wing, so we're ****ed if any of the others get in power.

Maybe get talking to a poster called Bluwolf, or bluewolf, can't remember how it's spelt. She was interested in doing such a thing but it never got off the ground.

marienbad

Permabear wrote: »

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I don't dispute some of this at all, but it is not the problem ( in terms of this discussion), if and when we create the jobs and find that they are not taken up , then you might have a case. Lets create the jobs climate first , previous experience has indicated that given the chance people prefer to work.

Now if you are saying that this template has been irreparably busted due to inordinate SW rates you might well have a case but we have to wait and see.

Rightwing

UncleChael wrote: »

I think today's budget answered the OP's question. I think its now a case that we(working people), absolutely NEED a right wing party and someone to fight our corner.

Impossible, Even in the US the republicans are in disarray. The immediate future is socialism until it all falls apart.

adocholiday

I would absolutely be interested in getting a properly focused right wing movement off the ground in Ireland if there were some equally minded people out there with the same goals in mind.

Today's budget was simply mind blowing. €2.2bn set aside for social housing, 25% reinstatement of the Christmas bonus (bonus for what exactly?), the retaining of the dependent child payment as a return to work incentive, €5 increase in child benefit... And the usual people in the Dail giving out that it wasn't enough! It beggars belief it really does.

And not a single right leaning opposition or lobby group to voice these concerns, only more socialists putting the hand out for more.

adocholiday

In relation to the job creation vs social welfare discussion. There is nothing wrong with the minimum wage. Increasing it will seriously drive inflation, increasing the cost of living and thus leading to the same arguments that those on social welfare cannot afford to pay bills etc and the vicious circle continues.

Give businesses more reason to employ people by removing the insane amount of red tape and bureaucracy (not to mention cost) around hiring someone. My father is a business owner and he said that it's easier to take on extra hours himself rather than hiring someone else. At the same time reduce the extra benefits keeping people on the dole. Someone previously mentioned the carrot and stick analogy. Well it's about finding a balance between attracting people to work but it's equally important to ensure that the stick is scary enough to stop it being an attractive alternative

Halloween Jack

adocholiday wrote: »

I would absolutely be interested in getting a properly focused right wing movement off the ground in Ireland if there were some equally minded people out there with the same goals in mind.

Today's budget was simply mind blowing. €2.2bn set aside for social housing, 25% reinstatement of the Christmas bonus (bonus for what exactly?), the retaining of the dependent child payment as a return to work incentive, €5 increase in child benefit... And the usual people in the Dail giving out that it wasn't enough! It beggars belief it really does.

And not a single right leaning opposition or lobby group to voice these concerns, only more socialists putting the hand out for more.

What, in your opinion, is the problem with setting aside 2.2bn (over the next 3 years) for social housing?

Or in fact with any of the other measures you mentioned?

The Black Oil

Valmont wrote: »

Less regulations, less taxation - abolish the minimum wage and youth unemployment would be solved overnight.

Tbh, without policy details (not having a go at ye) this is little more than Yes, we can.

Permabear

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marienbad

Permabear wrote: »

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Agree completely with you on the special interest groups. In time it will be seen as the biggest missed opportunity of this recession.

Permabear

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al22

China create about 12 million new working places per year.
Why not lower Irish wages to the Chinese USD 500 a month average or less and take their jobs here? To build factories, undercut their business, and export goods to China?
It will eliminate most of unemployment too.

At their low wages they still have a modern cities, transport, education etc. And everyone who move from country to cities ge a free apartment (once a life) and apartments are of a better quality than in Ireland.

Why nobody want it here? :-)

Halloween Jack

Permabear wrote: »

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Firstly, it's very possible that many of those social housing units will come to be occupied by working people, so they'll be paying taxes towards them themselves, along with the rents they pay to local authorities.

Secondly, investing in social housing stock is a capital investment with a whole range of benefits. Would you rather we kept paying slum landlords 500m a year in rent supplement ad infinitum?

There is no pretense that the state can create jobs. Any individual or organisation with the capacity to invest can create jobs, directly or indirectly.

The fact of the matter is that we have a large pool of unemployed persons with skills and experience in construction, we also have a housing shortage. I guess the government has put 2 and 2 together......

As for the portion of society that cost the state 20bn a year? The vast majority of that money ends up in the tills of businesses around the country. You could argue that the state spends too much on social spending, yet we are in and around the OECD average.

So often these 'right wing' critiques seem to me to be self centred whinging because somebody or some section of society is perceived to be getting more than they deserve. In my opinion it's typically a fiction.