Is it time for an economically right wing party?

Mahogany

Right Wing thinking is what got us into this mess so no thank you.

Permabear

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Permabear

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jank

marienbad wrote: »

I don't dispute some of this at all, but it is not the problem ( in terms of this discussion), if and when we create the jobs and find that they are not taken up , then you might have a case. Lets create the jobs climate first , previous experience has indicated that given the chance people prefer to work.

Now if you are saying that this template has been irreparably busted due to inordinate SW rates you might well have a case but we have to wait and see.

Yes, however, it has been noted by many in the business community that it is very hard very often to entice people off the dole into lowish paying jobs. The people on the dole look at the rate being offered, do the sums and say "No, not worth it". I don't blame them

There are two solutions to this.

1)This person finds a better paying job, but that usually involves a skill, a trade or a qualification of some sort say in IT, Health and so on. A lot of people on the dole either have no skills relevant to today's market so naturally they will not take up worth that they see as 'beneath them'. OK, so back to school education allowance and so forth can help but not everyone is motivated to re learn something when older but they should be encouraged to do so.

2) The stick. Reduce the dole and this could be done over a period of time. Say every 12 months that someone is on it, reduce it by 10% each time until its 50% of what it is. This would be a incentive for someone to go off and educate themselves and look for work. Germany has something similar to this.

Lastly, people forget that Ireland is still attracting immigrants from Eastern Europe to take up low paying jobs, 10,000's of thousands in fact in the worst recession of the past 80 years. So there is work out there just not at the rates that many Irish people want. The days of the easy money is gone. To get good money one has to be driven to learn a skill and add value to themselves. Unskilled work is low paid for a reason.

jank

adocholiday wrote: »

I would absolutely be interested in getting a properly focused right wing movement off the ground in Ireland if there were some equally minded people out there with the same goals in mind.

Today's budget was simply mind blowing. €2.2bn set aside for social housing, 25% reinstatement of the Christmas bonus (bonus for what exactly?), the retaining of the dependent child payment as a return to work incentive, €5 increase in child benefit... And the usual people in the Dail giving out that it wasn't enough! It beggars belief it really does.

And not a single right leaning opposition or lobby group to voice these concerns, only more socialists putting the hand out for more.

One doesnt even need to be that right wing economically to see how much of the folly in the latest budget is and its blatent pandering to loutish special interest groups.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/the-punt-mchales-warning-on-soft-budget-stance-30664059.html
http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/fiscal-council-chair-wanted-a-2bn-adjustment-291403.html

But yesterday, with hours to go until Finance Minister Michael Noonan took to his feet to deliver Budget 2015, he expressed his fear that the country could repeat the mistakes of the past, amid calls from interest groups for an easing up of austerity. And he mooted the possibility of his resignation should it be required in the future.

porsche959

adocholiday wrote: »

I would absolutely be interested in getting a properly focused right wing movement off the ground in Ireland if there were some equally minded people out there with the same goals in mind.

Today's budget was simply mind blowing. €2.2bn set aside for social housing, 25% reinstatement of the Christmas bonus (bonus for what exactly?), the retaining of the dependent child payment as a return to work incentive, €5 increase in child benefit... And the usual people in the Dail giving out that it wasn't enough! It beggars belief it really does.

And not a single right leaning opposition or lobby group to voice these concerns, only more socialists putting the hand out for more.

They have learned their lesson from 2002 & 2007 - they are blatantly trying to buy the election, like FF did.

porsche959

adocholiday wrote: »

I would absolutely be interested in getting a properly focused right wing movement off the ground in Ireland if there were some equally minded people out there with the same goals in mind.

On priinciple I would be interested too, but I am scared of hi-jacking by fringe weirdoes of the type who screech "baby killers" at anyone who has sensible opinions on abortion or similar social issues.

In my opinion the Catholic Taliban types are a great distraction and hindrance. I wouldn't vote for any party that involved them, but would certainly vote for a sensible moderate right wing party with libertarian social liberal views, or at least middle of the road on social issues - much like the PD's used to be.

Permabear

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Halloween Jack

Permabear wrote: »

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Private investors have been reluctant to start building houses in line with increased demand and prices that have risen 25% in a year. What makes you think that making a mortgage more difficult to obtain and attempting to increase the housing stock is an attempt to prop up housing prices?

Furthermore, with 860,000 working poor earning so little they don't reach the threshold for income tax, how do you expect them to house themselves in our cities, with drastic under supply and colossal rent prices?

Rightwing

porsche959 wrote: »

They have learned their lesson from 2002 & 2007 - they are blatantly trying to buy the election, like FF did.

That completely misses the point, the majority of the electorate are hypocrites.

marienbad

jank wrote: »

Yes, however, it has been noted by many in the business community that it is very hard very often to entice people off the dole into lowish paying jobs. The people on the dole look at the rate being offered, do the sums and say "No, not worth it". I don't blame them

There are two solutions to this.

1)This person finds a better paying job, but that usually involves a skill, a trade or a qualification of some sort say in IT, Health and so on. A lot of people on the dole either have no skills relevant to today's market so naturally they will not take up worth that they see as 'beneath them'. OK, so back to school education allowance and so forth can help but not everyone is motivated to re learn something when older but they should be encouraged to do so.

2) The stick. Reduce the dole and this could be done over a period of time. Say every 12 months that someone is on it, reduce it by 10% each time until its 50% of what it is. This would be a incentive for someone to go off and educate themselves and look for work. Germany has something similar to this.

Lastly, people forget that Ireland is still attracting immigrants from Eastern Europe to take up low paying jobs, 10,000's of thousands in fact in the worst recession of the past 80 years. So there is work out there just not at the rates that many Irish people want. The days of the easy money is gone. To get good money one has to be driven to learn a skill and add value to themselves. Unskilled work is low paid for a reason.

Low paying jobs and forcing people to take them is never the answer . That just switchs subsidies from people to business - just like Walmart where all employess are on foodstamps.

Another issue in any case seems to be the Irish workers will not take those jobs under any circumstances so we have the foreign lads and lassies and good luck to them , you get service efficiently and with a smile and the quality of work across all areas is just outstanding. imho opinion they are playing a vital role in our recovery as they have brought a sense of reality back to the work force

jank

marienbad wrote: »

Low paying jobs and forcing people to take them is never the answer . That just switchs subsidies from people to business - just like Walmart where all employess are on foodstamps.

Another issue in any case seems to be the Irish workers will not take those jobs under any circumstances so we have the foreign lads and lassies and good luck to them , you get service efficiently and with a smile and the quality of work across all areas is just outstanding. imho opinion they are playing a vital role in our recovery as they have brought a sense of reality back to the work force

Getting people off welfare into Jobs is not the answer? Welfare is supposed to be a net, not a "Ill see if I can get a job that pays what I want". Beggars cannot be choosers and more often then not if you are in a job, you are more likely to move to a higher paid job over time. The statistics prove this. Nobody owes you a living and I think the Irish psyche has changed massively over the past 20 years regards this.

I agree with people coming over and getting a job. I was just drawing onto the fact that there are jobs out there and the reason why many Irish people are on the dole is that they find a lot of the work on offer too lowly paid or beneath them. The dole in its current format just creates a poverty trap with little or no incentive to get off it. Work should always be incensed.

marienbad

jank wrote: »

Getting people off welfare into Jobs is not the answer? Welfare is supposed to be a net, not a "Ill see if I can get a job that pays what I want". Beggars cannot be choosers and more often then not if you are in a job, you are more likely to move to a higher paid job over time. The statistics prove this. Nobody owes you a living and I think the Irish psyche has changed massively over the past 20 years regards this.

I agree with people coming over and getting a job. I was just drawing onto the fact that there are jobs out there and the reason why many Irish people are on the dole is that they find a lot of the work on offer too lowly paid or beneath them. The dole in its current format just creates a poverty trap with little or no incentive to get off it. Work should always be incensed.

I am not disagreeing with much of this Jank , I just don't agree with switching from Social welfare to Corporate welfare which is what a lot of these schemes are .

The is no evidence that if jobs are available that people will not go for them . This is outside the 4 or 5% in every country that for what ever reason will never work.

I will accept the balance between welfare and work has been skewed in recent years and needs correction but fundamentally most people want to work .

Permabear

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Valmont

Nobody is forced by anyone else to take a low-paying job. However, I am literally forced to supplement the lifestyles of those who choose not to take those jobs. The rhetoric surrounding these issues is so muddled and nonsensical sometimes.

Rightwing

Valmont wrote: »

Nobody is forced by anyone else to take a low-paying job. However, I am literally forced to supplement the lifestyles of those who choose not to take those jobs. The rhetoric surrounding these issues is so muddled and nonsensical sometimes.

The issue is far more complex than that. There is always a % of the population that will be unemployed. In every country throughout history unemployment exists. Economically speaking full employment is around 2-3% of the population unemployed.

Reason being, some are undesirable.. and no employer will take them on (rightly so), others in between jobs etc. During the so called boom, we weren't far off full employment.

Halloween Jack

Valmont wrote: »

Nobody is forced by anyone else to take a low-paying job. However, I am literally forced to supplement the lifestyles of those who choose not to take those jobs. The rhetoric surrounding these issues is so muddled and nonsensical sometimes.

You'd be surprised how little choice really enters into it. I've spent years working with the unemployed. You'd be surprised how many middle aged men in this country can't read and write for example, it's not a matter of guys like this, who may have been fine block-layers or whatever, just popping off a few application forms to the local supermarkets and be stacking shelves in a few weeks.

Likewise I've seen the same bunch of young people traipse in and out of my office every month for years now, with any enthusiasm crushed out of them. There's a swathe of young people from a particular type of background who didn't make it to college, didn't have the cash or networks to emigrate and are competing for the lowest paid jobs with migrants of far better education/experience.

There are schemes to help alleviate some of these problems but they aren't suitable for everyone and there aren't the resources to offer everybody a leg up either.

95% of these people would work the rest are people with substance abuse issues or maybe mental health problems. To glibly assert that people would voluntarily subject themselves to a life of grinding poverty, stigmatisation and dependency continues to propagate the media led fiction that the feckless and lazy poor squander the money of the virtuous and prudent middle/upper classes

Gloomtastic!

Halloween Jack wrote: »

To glibly assert that people would voluntarily subject themselves to a life of grinding poverty, stigmatisation and dependency continues to propagate the media led fiction that the feckless and lazy poor squander the money of the virtuous and prudent middle/upper classes

Grinding poverty? On €188 per week? Are you sure?

Halloween Jack

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Grinding poverty? On €188 per week? Are you sure?

Yep, there are a lot of people now who don't qualify for rent allowance now as the vast majority of rents in the city are above the allowable thresholds. While rents are lower outside the cities the thresholds are also lower and you have extra costs associated with getting in to cities to avail of services etc...

I would suggest trying to house, clothe and feed yourself on 188 constitutes poverty.

Gloomtastic!

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Yep, there are a lot of people now who don't qualify for rent allowance now as the vast majority of rents in the city are above the allowable thresholds. While rents are lower outside the cities the thresholds are also lower and you have extra costs associated with getting in to cities to avail of services etc...

I would suggest trying to house, clothe and feed yourself on 188 constitutes poverty.

Just as well you don't work in the UK then. You'd be distraught!

Halloween Jack

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Just as well you don't work in the UK then. You'd be distraught!

Agree on that front. maybe some of the posters wanting to live under a right wing government could migrate to blighty and vote Tory/ukip? Doesn't get much more right wing than that in a democratic system....

Find out what it's like to live in a society approaching Dickensian levels of income/wealth inequality where vast swathes of the country are left to rot and huge amounts of people excluded from participating in economic and civic life and vilified by the media for being poor, disabled people are branded unworthy of the minimum wage by a member of the government and unfunded tax breaks for the wealthy are the order if the day.

al22

Just as an average monthly wages in some EU countries (and non EU) is much less than a social welfare in Ireland. The solution is to come to Ireland to get any job for a minimum wages and get on the social welfare after. Getting 188 euro per week plus rent allowance plus other benefits? and one person on the dole here can keep his/her family abroad quite happy.

rish do not want low paid jobs, foreign emigrants are buying a low paid jobs, there is a market for selling and buying a low paid jobs. As recently I heard jne must to pay up to 10 weekly wages to get a low paid job in Dublin, after getting a social welfare one can sell his/her job to others who want to buy.

On offer are legal jobs and jobs for cash as well, say house cleaning etc as a supplement to the social welfare, when one get one.

Irish people can relax....

Gloomtastic!

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Agree on that front. maybe some of the posters wanting to live under a right wing government could migrate to blighty and vote Tory/ukip? Doesn't get much more right wing than that in a democratic system....

Find out what it's like to live in a society approaching Dickensian levels of income/wealth inequality where vast swathes of the country are left to rot and huge amounts of people excluded from participating in economic and civic life and vilified by the media for being poor, disabled people are branded unworthy of the minimum wage by a member of the government and unfunded tax breaks for the wealthy are the order if the day.

I lived there for 20-odd years and had no problem with it whatsoever.

Like the East Europeans who came here in the last decade, when I moved to London in 1984 I started at the bottom. Right at the bottom - I lived on the streets for the first two weeks until I managed to track down a couple of mates to share a place with.

I started working at the bottom of ladder, worked my nuts off to make sure the job was done - 90+ hour weeks, not a penny of overtime. As I progressed up the ladder, I was responsible for recruiting staff. My no.1 rule was don't employ Londoners. They lived at home, thought the world owed them a living, always had something to go to at 5pm when there was still lots of work to be done and were generally useless.
However, employ an Irish person or a Northerner and they worked their socks off because they needed the money to pay their rent. Swim or sink, it's very simple.
That's why East Europeans have taken all the lower paid jobs. They need the money and are willing to start at the bottom. They don't care about rights or entitlements, they just want to work.

In those 20 years, I never voted Tory or Labour, UK politics is so dull. I would have voted UKIP though. Anyone who wants to to do away with pen pushers and politicians gets my vote!

UncleChael

Halloween Jack wrote: »

maybe some of the posters wanting to live under a right wing government could migrate to blighty and vote Tory/ukip? Doesn't get much more right wing than that in a democratic system....

Again I think this alludes back to the original point made by the OP. The fact that our neighbours just across the water have these right wing options and we have nothing means its high time a viable right wing party set up shop here.

The_Captain

jank wrote: »

Yes, however, it has been noted by many in the business community that it is very hard very often to entice people off the dole into lowish paying jobs. The people on the dole look at the rate being offered, do the sums and say "No, not worth it". I don't blame them

You're working off the assumption that everyone, or at least the majority, on welfare is unskilled and has been let go from a minimum wage job. There's engineers, mechanics, tradesmen on the dole who are looking for work in their area and finding nothing.
At the same time, because of unemployment, business owners and employers are quite happy to offer salaries of far beneath the market rate.

People with 15 years experience in aircraft maintenance are being expected to work as sales assistants in newsagents. Take what you can get, scrounger. Employers are now allowed to hire staff and pay them nothing under this stupid job bridge scheme.

Business owners cite the fact that they are making less money so need either less staff or lower wages.
They're making less money because people are losing jobs and taking wage cuts, less money to spend in shops.
If more people work, more money is spent, business can afford to take on more staff and the economy as a whole grows.

Welfare cuts do nothing to stimulate growth. Someone without a job doesn't become less unemployed by having less money. Maybe you'll make people desperate enough to take low paying jobs and take a hit on the additional costs associated with working, leaving them pretty much no better off with marginal gains to the economy overall.

With more people working, people on here wouldn't feel so aggrieved about their hard-earned money being taxed to pay for some lazy wastrels Sky Sports package

Permabear

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Halloween Jack

Permabear wrote: »

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Some good points, well made. I have a couple of issues though, firstly I think it's too simplistic to blame the school system in isolation for poor literacy. There is obviously a strong correlation between educational attainment and socio-economic background. The I'll educated sections of the workforce are victims of the gross inequalities built into our society. These inequalities have been in the rise in the decades since the western world rejected social democracy and embraced the free market paradigm. I've yet to see an illustration of how libertarianism or right wing economics helps eradicate such huge levels of inequality. I have no issue with some inequality, it's an obvious fact of life and it probably stimulates growth at some level as it acts as a driver for upward mobility etc. But at current levels it seems to be seriously damaging to economic growth and general wellbeing.

On the employment services front, a lot of what you suggest is happening. The intreo project is changing the way the DSP handle the unemployed, for the better in my view. Indeed our major left wing party were crowing about privatising a portion of employment services just the other day.

Permabear

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adocholiday

Permabear I won't quote your entire previous post but you hit the nail on the head. This isn't about having a social welfare system vs not having one. It's about rectifying the terrible waste and abuses there. It's also about fixing the issues at the core of our education and jobs situation. There are so many things simply broken at the very core and you addressed those issues perfectly.

jank

The_Captain wrote: »

People with 15 years experience in aircraft maintenance are being expected to work as sales assistants in newsagents. Take what you can get, scrounger.

If someone is skilled in a trade or occupation but there is no need currently for that skill set than it stands to reason that this person should take a lower paid job. I do not see the issue with this.

The alternative is to upskill/reskill or wait until these jobs (if ever) are in demand again.

Idbatterim

have read most of the pages and have a good few points to make, but my first one is this, wouldnt FG be the type of party we are discussing, if they didnt have to make the inevitable, concessions to Labour? There is no other party that they would be better matched too than a PD's etc. But short of a party like that starting up. They wont get a majority, so we are stuck with what we have now, i.e FG and Labour as a probable best case scenario...

Secondly in relation to Public v private sector debate, we are all workers, is it not very short sighted from some of the PS to vote in an irresponsible party who are going to do far more damage than good, run the place like a joke again, so they can have a few more euro in their pocket, before everything comes off the rails again. FG may not increase the rate of pay as much, but they will cut taxes, this incentivises the wealth generating private sector to put in more effort, create jobs etc. Which is a win win for everyone.

We dont have any other options now, but would it not make sense for workers private and public sector to vote in a party who will reward work, put in a realistic tax base that isnt subject to massive spikes or drops, i.e. the current water and property tax. Spend money on infrastructure and the important things, instead of simply throwing as much money into peoples pockets as they can regardless of merit?

my reasoning and thought process has really started to move on from Public v private sector to we are all in this together, why dont we make a stand, vote FG and stop the other father christmas parties with their ignorant voters, taking the piss out of us?

Also in relation to waste, say in the PS, surely they as workers wouldnt want it rectified, as they can benefit from the savings through increased pay or lower taxes? All my mates are private sector have no problem in highlighting the issues in their place of work and sometimes ripping into them...

FG wouldnt go after pensioners, they would probably start tacking a lot of the social welfare jokes and traps though, which is probably top of the list for what most of us posting here want targeted...

Another poster put up an excellent post on what left wing centresist and right wing parties were and rated all of the parties here on that scale, FG were centre. Thing is, we are such a bleeding heart society, that I can see why people think FG are right wing, but thats just how left we are here!

Permabear

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Manach

Permabear wrote: »

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mmm "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

The_Captain

jank wrote: »

If someone is skilled in a trade or occupation but there is no need currently for that skill set than it stands to reason that this person should take a lower paid job. I do not see the issue with this.

The alternative is to upskill/reskill or wait until these jobs (if ever) are in demand again.

The fact is that there is a need for that skill set but businesses are shedding staff and making do with less staff because of falling profits

Nowhere was particularly overstaffed in 2007, but (I think) a lot of employers used the recession as an excuse to cut staff and drop wages purely to increase their profit margins. It created a race to the bottom, take a hit in pay or get fired, find a new job and you'll get paid less than you were previously.

I don't want to keep banging the same drum, but putting people on welfare and lowering wages does nothing to help the country as a whole
Creating real jobs and raising wages improves the economy for every one of us
I really don't understand why people on here are so quick to support wage cuts and unemployment

Permabear

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Gloomtastic!

Permabear wrote: »

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Didn't know that about Varadkar. Need to cross him off the list so. Why any man has a say in what a woman can and can't do with her body/life, I'll never know.

Permabear

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Loafing Oaf

Permabear wrote: »

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In fairness he was only articulating the status quo, Any party or individual not actively seeking the repeal of the 8th Amendment, and as things stand that's pretty much everyone in the 4 main parties, is de facto opposed to abortion for rape victims.

conorh91

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Why any man has a say in what a woman can and can't do with her body/life, I'll never know.

So you're opposed to males campaigning to repeal the 8th amendment , right?

Or is it just that men should just walk away from the debate if they are pro-life in any way?

Gloomtastic!

conorh91 wrote: »

Or is it just that men should just walk away from the debate if they are pro-life in any way?

Damn right they should. Unless it's their baby, how does it affect them in any way, shape or form?

p1akuw47h5r3it

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Damn right they should. Unless it's their baby, how does it affect them in any way, shape or form?

So if an abortion referendum came around only currently pregnant women should be able to vote?

Great idea...:rolleyes:

Gloomtastic!

DanDan6592 wrote: »

So if an abortion referendum came around only currently pregnant women should be able to vote?

Great idea...:rolleyes:

Why do they have to be pregnant? I never said anything of the sort.

the_syco

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

I think I started a thread a few years ago advocating a right wing party but I think it was Scofflaw who pointed out the following.

There are 600,000 trade union members. If you add on their dependents then you're looking at about 900,000 voters. If you add on the unemployed and their dependents then you're looking at another 600,000 voters. Pensioners - 500,000. So that's 2million voters out of a total voting population of approx. 3.1million.

Plus with a voter turnout of 60%, the vast majority will be members of the above - trade unions, unemployed and especially pensioners - all the people who are the biggest drain on this country's finances.

Agreed. The only way the right wing party could be ran is by people running a party that will lose. And the worst thing is that they'd have to finance it all themselves, as they couldn't really run the party from the dole.

Berserker

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Why do they have to be pregnant? I never said anything of the sort.

What about women who can't have children due to their age or a medical condition? Or women who do not want to have children?

Idbatterim

Agreed. The only way the right wing party could be ran is by people running a party that will lose. And the worst thing is that they'd have to finance it all themselves, as they couldn't really run the party from the dole.

The thing is though, that they wouldnt have to be a please all party, just get enough seats to form a coalition with FG... FG would far prefer to bed fellows with type of party we are discussing, than the exact opposite, which is Labour...

what type of party would Lucinda Creighton run if she ever does indeed start one?

just on their website now, I like a lot of the below proposals...

http://www.reformalliance.ie/reform-conference-details/economy/#.VEQvEPldWjY

Economy

Reforming the Economy

All retirement lump sums should be taxed at the recipients marginal rate of tax (they have a greater ability to pay than any other taxpayer. A bar should be placed on all ex TD’s from entering the Senate.

The ‘poverty trap’ (in some ‘poverty golden handcuffs’) has got to be addressed urgently, to make paid employment more attractive, than the state sponsored destructive lifestyle on the Dole.

Tax system needs reform. It’s penal to be on a higher tax earning a paltry 32K.

Introduce free legal aid for families who face eviction from their homes due to serious illness or redundancy.

Abolish the high rate of motor tax and set it at a reasonable rate. Make motor tax progressive not regressive.

How about converting some unused hotels into hostels for the homeless and less well off in society?

Bring tax bands for 2 income and 1 income couples closer together.

Equalise PAYE tax credits and home cover tax credits – presently PAYE is double home cover

Allow tax credits and/or tax band increases for children of married couples as in other countries and for single parents.

Make a certain proportion of child care costs tax deductible and allow this to be means tested so that those who earn the least get the most benefit.

No profiteering from land deals for housing

3rd level of tax for those earning €100k

Hefty fines for accountants and their clients providing false information on accounts so as to gain grants etc

Big promotion to use Irish products in catering and sell Irish products in shops

Working should pay better than social welfare ie social welfare should not be better that payment for working

Permabear

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adocholiday

Permabear wrote: »

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The thing about the Reform Alliance is that they are too socially conservative for me. I am completely pro-choice and that's a deal breaker for me. They also have yet to convince me that all of their economic policies, or at least a strong majority of them, are in line with my own. As said in the quoted post, there are too many left leaning policies in the RA's objectives and that to me is more pandering to the people. I don't think the RA are the way forward for Ireland, although it is a step in the right direction. I completely agree with Permabear's post above. There are too many unanswered questions of their objectives and policies, and their focus seems to be on all the wrong areas.

K-9

Permabear wrote: »

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Things like doubling the Home Carers tax credit and introducing tax credits for children seems very socially conservative and a bit bizarre to me personally!

The_Captain

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Didn't know that about Varadkar. Need to cross him off the list so. Why any man has a say in what a woman can and can't do with her body/life, I'll never know.

Silly line of thought to be going down. Democracy means everyone gets a say, regardless of who you are. It's no different from saying only property owners are allowed vote on matters relating to housing or only immigrants should be allowed to have a say on immigration.

We already have a tonne of laws determining what a woman (or man) can or can't do with their body. Legally, you're actually allowed to do very little with your body

Idbatterim

At the same time, it contains populist left-wing stuff like "no profiteering from land deals for housing" and a third level of tax for those earning over 100k. Brilliant.

There are effectively four bands now with the USC changes, the fact there were only two bands before was a joke, I dont have an issue with more bands or people on high salaries, paying a portion of it at a higher rate, but certainly not at the joke rate it is at now i.e. the 51%...

in Germany and is it France, the highest rate doesnt kick in, until serious money is being earnied, 250k plus AFAIK...