Is it time for an economically right wing party?

Lux23

What? Like Fine Gael?

Gloomtastic!

The_Captain wrote: »

Silly line of thought to be going down. Democracy means everyone gets a say, regardless of who you are. It's no different from saying only property owners are allowed vote on matters relating to housing or only immigrants should be allowed to have a say on immigration.

That is the problem with democracy as opposed to my line of thought. I think! :rolleyes:

Idbatterim

What? Like Fine Gael?

FG are not right wing... Just take a look at what they have or havent done...

Hold the Cheez Whiz

hmmm wrote: »

The last time I remember this mood in the country the PDs formed and got more than 20% of the vote. Enough to make a difference, but not enough to form a majority. The reason was broadly the same - the people who were paying the vast majority of the taxes were sick of seeing the income from their hard work stolen by a capricious government and squandered. A bout of sensible public finance management followed, and the country had an economic boom.

I have to wonder if the PDs are getting too much credit for what were really external constraints imposed by the EU in order for countries to meet the requirements for adopting the Euro. The years running up to the euro convergence process were pretty much the only period of voluntary fiscal constraint in the Republic's history. Absent that oversight, the wheels came off pretty quickly, and the low interest rates of the 2000s only added fuel to the fire.

That said, I wonder if any fiscally conservative, socially liberal party could be successful in Ireland given its institutional structure. I think this type of party would have a better chance of success if elections were held on a nationwide (i.e. single-district) basis using a party list system (like the Netherlands), rather than the PR-STV system that exists today. As it stands, TDs are glorified county councillors with control over the national pursestrings, and that is a recipe for clientelism and parish pump politics on a mind boggling scale.

Hold the Cheez Whiz

jank wrote: »

If someone is skilled in a trade or occupation but there is no need currently for that skill set than it stands to reason that this person should take a lower paid job. I do not see the issue with this.

The alternative is to upskill/reskill or wait until these jobs (if ever) are in demand again.

The alternative must be to re-skill; to do anything less would be an atrocious waste of human capital. The Danes are very, very good at this, but they also see periods of unemployment as both temporary and as an opportunity to retrain; i.e. being unemployed not only comes with rights, but responsibilities as well.

conorh91

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Damn right they should. Unless it's their baby, how does it affect them in any way, shape or form?

So why should anyone get a say? Why should infertile, veteran abortion rights campaigners get a say?

Such a rule on entitlement to comment crumbles under the most basic examination.

Clearly the 'no uterus, no opinion' mentality is just as deep in denial as the hardline pro-life stance.

jmayo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

How are Trade Union members a drain on the country's finances?

Ehh most trade union memebrs are public sector and by that I mean either work for the state, are paid by the state or work for a company that is in state ownership.
Hence that includes civil servants, public servants, local authorituy employees, quangoe employees, semi state employees.

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

We had that, they were called the Progressive Democrats.

They were hated.

We may think there is a gap in the market, but the electorate said otherwise.

They were hated because basically they degenerated into the "support fianna fail and all it's wastage and arrogance" party

adocholiday wrote: »

So Paul Murphy gets elected. Do the people who vote for him even read his manifesto? Some of his proposals are off the wall completely. All of his campaign was completely focused on the abolishing of the water charges and practically nothing else of substance. I think that result has just answered the question of the thread.

Actually being fair that is all he needed to do to get elected.

And if I was in most parts of Roscommon I would be hugely against water charges.

Does anyone around here realise that huge chunks of Roscommon has had boil water notices in place for over a year ?

Water service is one of the biggest things in Roscommon over last couple of years.
People (probably some who haven't a fooking clue about Roscommon) should actually check their facts before they start lambasting voters.


http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/parts-of-roscommon-enduring-boil-warnings-for-over-a-year-1.1899847

Towns and villages covered by a “boil water” notice, which advises consumers not to wash vegetables or brush their teeth using tap water, include Boyle, Killaraght, Rockingham, Cootehall, Tarmon Road, Kiltycreighton, Crossna, Derrycashel, Moigh, Carrigeenroe, Battlebridge and Ardcarne in Co Roscommon.

Periodic boil water notices are regularly in place in Castlerea and Ballaghaderreen. In south Roscommon a boil water notice relating to the Killeglin water treatment plant has been in place for 10 months.

Who in their right fooking mind would want to start paying for a service that is, pardon the pun, pis* poor.

Would anyone here be happy paying for a water service where you had to import your ice, boil the water you wash your teeth with or wash the vegetables you eat.

And even with the shyte water supply people are expected to pay as they have been.

In the Moorings Bar and Restaurant on the shores of Lough Key, proprietor Patrick Heslin says they cater for about 90 people in the restaurant on a typical Wednesday night, rising to more than 100 at the weekend.

The water for food preparation, ice cubes and drinking is bought in from SuperValu or Centra in Boyle at a cost of about €85 weekly. Water rates come to about €300 monthly, and no discount is available when it is unsafe to drink. “We just get on with it,” said Heslin.

Irish Water says there were almost 19,000 people on boil water notices when it took over the network in January 2014. More than 98 per cent of those were in Roscommon, it says.

And the reason the people of Roscommon have such a bad water service for such long peridos actually sheds some light on how cr** some of our public services are.

Idbatterim

good post jmayo, this likes of the above is a total disgrace and just goes to show you where something as basic as drinking water cant be supplied in Ireland after the boom to end all booms, endless money to be thrown at all the usual vested interests and waste though!

Billions of euro of increases on welfare and benchmarking a year, well above inflation, that is now being paid back with interest. The benchmarking is understandable, compared to ridiculous welfare increases at a time of full employment, dont invest it in infrastructure or proper rail transport whatever you do, way more votes in buying off the electorate at large...

Permabear

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p1akuw47h5r3it

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Why do they have to be pregnant? I never said anything of the sort.

Because you said men can't have a say because it's "not their baby". Therefore surely only pregnant women can have a say since it's noone's baby but theirs.

Gloomtastic!

DanDan6592 wrote: »

Because you said men can't have a say because it's "not their baby". Therefore surely only pregnant women can have a say since it's noone's baby but theirs.

Sweet jebus!! How about we compromise with women of childbearing age? That should keep the 10am mass goers out of the picture.......

conorh91

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Sweet jebus!! How about we compromise with women of childbearing age?

So lets get this correct.

At menopause, women who are active in the pro-life movement should be silent? men should be silent?

Nell McCafferty should be silent, for example?

Praveen Halappanavar should be silent?

Is this correct?

Gloomtastic!

conorh91 wrote: »

Is this correct?

Yes! Is that you Nell?

MRnotlob606

Questions just as immigration are not been giving any atention , Fine fael and fine gael are just two big yes man parties that will nod their heads at any proposal coming from the European Union.

BoJack Horseman

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

Questions just as immigration are not been giving any atention , Fine fael and fine gael are just two big yes man parties that will nod their heads at any proposal coming from the European Union.

There are anti-immigrant parties/groups out there.

The biggest anti-EU party in its own right is SF.

However an anti-EU/anti-immigrant platform just isn't important enough an issue to capture the peoples imagination on its own.

The_Captain

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Sweet jebus!! How about we compromise with women of childbearing age? That should keep the 10am mass goers out of the picture.......

I don't think anyone who disagrees with me should be allowed to vote

Gloomtastic!

The_Captain wrote: »

I don't think anyone who disagrees with me should be allowed to vote

If I say the same thing, are we agreeing? :rolleyes:

Donnielighto

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Is that federal tax, state tax, city tax? They have a few layers.

Donnielighto

Abortion issue is simple...

conorh91

Donnielighto wrote: »

Abortion issue is simple...

It isn't simple. But the idea that husbands, boyfriends, dads, infertile women and menopausal women have no worthwhile opinion is, well, simple.

Permabear

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FreudianSlippers

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

In fairness though, there are some states (I'm thinking particularly the 3 on the West Coast) that have some fairly punitive taxes on high-middle income earners - your point stands though, as I recall it's people over $200k rather than €34k.

BoJack Horseman

My father in law showed me his pay slip (in the great state on Wisconsin).

A lower wage than mine, yet higher taxed.

Perhaps it depends on the state?

FreudianSlippers

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

My father in law showed me his pay slip (in the great state on Wisconsin).

A lower wage than mine, yet higher taxed.

Perhaps it depends on the state?

Odd, I know someone that lives in Wisconsin for the fact that his wage is higher and taxes lower than they would be elsewhere.

BoJack Horseman

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Odd, I know someone that lives in Wisconsin for the fact that his wage is higher and taxes lower than they would be elsewhere.

Maybe there are voluntary deductions, insurance or what-not I hadn't copped onto.

Let's not get into yet another abortion debate please! This is a good thread as it is

thanks

Hold the Cheez Whiz

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Odd, I know someone that lives in Wisconsin for the fact that his wage is higher and taxes lower than they would be elsewhere.

There is so much variation in the US. Massachusetts is often called "Taxachusetts", but when my husband moved to there from California, his take-home pay increased significantly because of the taxes (lower state and local; lower insurance rates, etc). In Pennsylvania, the taxes are higher, but the cost of living is a LOT cheaper than in Massachusetts or California, even in a major city like Philadelphia. Most of the upper midwestern states are not low-tax compared to, say, Florida (which does not have a state income tax), but those states also have invested more heavily in public education so in their view, there were getting some bang for their buck.

Education seems to be one area where people are open to more taxation: even very conservative enclaves in the US have been willing to pay high property taxes (upwards of $12-15K/year) if the local public schools are top notch.

For Reals

The_Captain wrote: »

I don't think anyone who disagrees with me should be allowed to vote

Isn't that what Republicans try in the states already?

Permabear

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DEFTLEFTHAND

Maybe socially as well, in real Ireland outside of leftist forums like Boards many people hold conservative values close to their heart.

porsche959

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Maybe socially as well, in real Ireland outside of leftist forums like Boards many people hold conservative values close to their heart.

But the real Ireland is a place that actually exists and voters in it consistently vote for left wing parties - for example, the disillusioned ex Labour party voters tend to vote for parties of the left, no?

PopePalpatine

porsche959 wrote: »

But the real Ireland is a place that actually exists and voters in it consistently vote for left wing parties - for example, the disillusioned ex Labour party voters tend to vote for parties of the left, no?

Not to mention recent polls in support of same-sex marriage, adoption by same-sex couples, repealing the 8th Amendment etc. A party which wants to return us to a sort of "Catholic State" like back in the 1950s will be lucky to get double-digit Dáil seats.

EDIT: Oh look, support for same-sex marriage has risen to 73%:
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/poll-shows-rise-in-support-for-gay-marriage-647684.html#.VEzx6hOWmPE.twitter

Idbatterim

the RA or Shane Ross group of independents (not sure where they stand socially) they would be the minority partner, they wouldnt change current social policy, but they could change economic policy... As social policy is largely a question of it is or is not legal... Totally different to economic policy where you can throw each other a bone here and there, increase a few % here, cut a few percent there...

woodoo

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Maybe socially as well, in real Ireland outside of leftist forums like Boards many people hold conservative values close to their heart.

Boards is extremely leftist, There is nothing you could say here that is too liberal. But they come down like a ton of bricks on any socially right wing comment. I can't be bothered with it any more and have decided to close my account.

I had yet another experience over in AH where the leftists can get away with blue murder but those with right leaning opinions are smothered. Waste of time.

coolemon

woodoo wrote: »

Boards is extremely leftist, There is nothing you could say here that is too liberal. But they come down like a ton of bricks on any socially right wing comment. I can't be bothered with it any more and have decided to close my account.

I had yet another experience over in AH where the leftists can get away with blue murder but those with right leaning opinions are smothered. Waste of time.

Funnily enough I think the opposite. As a 'far-leftist' I find boards smothering of leftist views.

The predominant tendency is socially liberal and economically centrist and capitalist. Very few subscribe to socialism. Quote Marx and one is a labelled a lunatic on here.

NelsonVanAlden

Would love to see a fiscally conservative socially liberal party in Ireland but i think the "nanny state" ideology is too ingrained in the Irish psyche for that to happen anytime soon.

Permabear

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FreudianSlippers

There is a level of change that comes with age/maturity though. I'd say you'd find much more "socialist" views in a forum like After Hours compared to Politics. I'm not saying that's a bad thing; but there is often a very rosy picture of the idea of socialism when one is young that gets quickly jaded out of them as they get older.

Gloomtastic!

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

There is a level of change that comes with age/maturity though. I'd say you'd find much more "socialist" views in a forum like After Hours compared to Politics. I'm not saying that's a bad thing; but there is often a very rosy picture of the idea of socialism when one is young that gets quickly jaded out of them as they get older.

Doesn't say much for Joe Higgins!

FreudianSlippers

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

Doesn't say much for Joe Higgins!

I just meant that most young people dabble in a bit of socialism; most grow out of it and some genuinely believe that it is the right thing to do - usually because of their social standing. You would be hard pressed to find many people supporting socialism who are not in some way benefiting from it.

I would argue that the leaders of socialist political parties and trade unions frequently say one thing and do another.

Tabnabs

From the ideology of "If you’re not a socialist before you’re twenty-five, you have no heart; if you are a socialist after twenty-five, you have no head."

The_Captain

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I just meant that most young people dabble in a bit of socialism; most grow out of it and some genuinely believe that it is the right thing to do - usually because of their social standing. You would be hard pressed to find many people supporting socialism who are not in some way benefiting from it.

I would argue that the leaders of socialist political parties and trade unions frequently say one thing and do another.

I absolutely disagree with that.
Paul Murphy comes from a very affluent background and would probably be a lot financially better off/higher profile if he went for a more moderate Labour stance.
Joe Higgins actively gives most of his salary away to support causes he believes in.

Looking at their supporters, they seem to be young, educated, hard-left idealists as opposed to working class/unemployed looking for hand outs

Gloomtastic!

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I just meant that most young people dabble in a bit of socialism; most grow out of it and some genuinely believe that it is the right thing to do - usually because of their social standing. You would be hard pressed to find many people supporting socialism who are not in some way benefiting from it.

I would argue that the leaders of socialist political parties and trade unions frequently say one thing and do another.

With Jack O'Connor on something like €175,000pa, Rich Boy Barrettt and Paul 'Son of a CEO' Murphy. All firebrand reds. Socialism Is for sheep! :rolleyes:

Loafing Oaf

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

There is a level of change that comes with age/maturity though. I'd say you'd find much more "socialist" views in a forum like After Hours compared to Politics. I'm not saying that's a bad thing; but there is often a very rosy picture of the idea of socialism when one is young that gets quickly jaded out of them as they get older.

I would say very few Irish people are "socialists" in a thought-through way, hence the low level of support for hard-left parties. On the other hand, most Irish people are very supportive of high levels of Government spending on all sorts of things, and are (grudgingly) prepared to pay high levels of taxes to fund that spending. If anything, I would say support for this kind of advanced welfare state intensifies as people get older and they enjoy more of its benefits such as free transport. Hence the failure of 'small government' conservatism to make much headway in Ireland.

coolemon

Id say those commenting on here that socialists are typically young and grow out of it know very few socialists in real life.

Indeed one just needs to look at the age profile of, say, the Communist Party, Workers Party or even the IRSP to see how the assertion does not follow reality. A very large chunk of socialists and communists became politicised during the 60's and 70's due to the political context of the time.

That said, I know quite a large amount of "young people" who were members of far-left organisations and who have disappeared off the political landscape. I don't think they understood fully in the first place what it was they professed to believe in.

But its a political context thing. Not an age thing.

FreudianSlippers

coolemon wrote: »

Id say those commenting on here that socialists are typically young and grow out of it know very few socialists in real life.

Indeed one just needs to look at the age profile of, say, the Communist Party, Workers Party or even the IRSP to see how the assertion does not follow reality. A very large chunk of socialists and communists became politicised during the 60's and 70's due to the political context of the time.

That said, I know quite a large amount of "young people" who were members of far-left organisations and who have disappeared off the political landscape. I don't think they understood fully in the first place what it was they professed to believe in.

But its a political context thing. Not an age thing.

I think you'll find that I said that younger people have a tendency to have more socialist views which many grow out of. Those that do not are almost exclusively from a certain background and social class.

Redistribution of wealth seems like a very good idea when one is young, but once one realises they have nothing to benefit from it they move on. Therefore my point earlier continues: only people who have something (even perceptively) to gain from it believe in it. Whether that means you benefit from the redistribution or from being at the top of the pyramid; there is potential for gain from nothing.

The_Captain

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Redistribution of wealth seems like a very good idea when one is young, but once one realises they have nothing to benefit from it they move on. Therefore my point earlier continues: only people who have something (even perceptively) to gain from it believe in it.

The status/age of our elected socialists in our Dail show that you're talking through your hoop

FreudianSlippers

The_Captain wrote: »

The status/age of our elected socialists in our Dail show that you're talking through your hoop

Is there something wrong with your quote button that it only selectively quotes what I said to support your inane statement that I'm "talking though my hoop"?

For about the 3rd or 4th time, those that remain socialist are from either a set social class or have something economically to gain from it.

The_Captain

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Is there something wrong with your quote button that it only selectively quotes what I said to support your inane statement that I'm "talking though my hoop"?

For about the 3rd or 4th time, those that remain socialist are from either a set social class or have something economically to gain from it.

Don't see the point of quoting your whole post to reply to one line of it.

Especially considering your argument is basically only grabbing scobies looking for handouts are socialists, despite the fact that guys like Paul Murphy and Richard Boyd Barrett come from quite affluent backgrounds, and Joe Higgins gives away most of his money.

So, you are talking through your hoop

ben101

Ridiculous thread when we are in a country with a crap distribution of wealth ,low to middle income workers are ridden into the ground while you have certain billionaires who contribute to several high profile politicians and at the same time own half the media what with papers ,radio stations etc.(monopoly laws my ass) while they fly a private jet to Malta or Portugal or whatever country has the best deal of the month to avoid paying ANY tax at all!?!?You don't have to be a leftie or a commie to know that aint a fair system.