Is it time for an economically right wing party?

coolemon

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Redistribution of wealth seems like a very good idea when one is young, but once one realises they have nothing to benefit from it they move on. Therefore my point earlier continues: only people who have something (even perceptively) to gain from it believe in it. Whether that means you benefit from the redistribution or from being at the top of the pyramid; there is potential for gain from nothing.

That is an extremely simplified, narrow and imo incorrect understating of the factors of causation which influence people to move away from socialist politics 'at a young age'.

There are so many complex sociological factors that contribute to the change. I would say identity, and the shifting prioritisation and adoption of new identities as people grow older would be one of the main factors.

Nothing to do with your assertion that "wealth redistribution would not be beneficial". I think that assertion itself is ludicrous. Of course wealth redistribution would be beneficial. Unless one were in the top income or wealth brackets that is.

coolemon

ben101 wrote: »

Ridiculous thread when we are in a country with a crap distribution of wealth ,low to middle income workers are ridden into the ground while you have certain billionaires who contribute to several high profile politicians and at the same time own half the media what with papers ,radio stations etc.(monopoly laws my ass) while they fly a private jet to Malta or Portugal or whatever country has the best deal of the month to avoid paying ANY tax at all!?!?You don't have to be a leftie or a commie to know that aint a fair system.

No harm in being a communist. Only in parochial Ireland and her fellow insulated English speaking countries is it something only mad people believe in.

ben101

coolemon wrote: »

No harm in being a communist. Only in parochial Ireland and her fellow insulated English speaking countries is it something only mad people believe in.

Didn't mean it like that ,what i was trying to get at was that in this country if you are not right wing you are considered a lefty socialist commie and to suggest we need ANOTHER right wing party is ridiculous.We desperately need at the least a moderate left group if even just to balance things a little as it has gotten way too right wing, too many of the same people owning everything and getting richer while most of us get poorer.If you think about it ,it can't be healthy to have no viable alternative.

Icepick

ben101 wrote: »

Ridiculous thread when we are in a country with a crap distribution of wealth ,low to middle income workers are ridden into the ground while you have certain billionaires who contribute to several high profile politicians and at the same time own half the media what with papers ,radio stations etc.(monopoly laws my ass) while they fly a private jet to Malta or Portugal or whatever country has the best deal of the month to avoid paying ANY tax at all!?!?You don't have to be a leftie or a commie to know that aint a fair system.

Ireland has one of the most progressive income tax systems in the world while having one of the most generous welfare systems in the world.

coolemon

ben101 wrote: »

Didn't mean it like that ,what i was trying to get at was that in this country if you are not right wing you are considered a lefty socialist commie and to suggest we need ANOTHER right wing party is ridiculous.We desperately need at the least a moderate left group if even just to balance things a little as it has gotten way too right wing, too many of the same people owning everything and getting richer while most of us get poorer.If you think about it ,it can't be healthy to have no viable alternative.

Notice that in the graph below four of the top 5 are English speaking. In these countries there is also no notable history of a large and organised socialist or communist movement. That unlike almost all of those others listed. I fully agree with you. Indeed I would go further. Capitalism needs replacing. Root and branch.

coolemon

Icepick wrote: »

Ireland has one of the most progressive income tax systems in the world while having one of the most generous welfare systems in the world.

I have heard that bandied about.

I don't see what is so progressive about the taxation system when there is such a high level of social inequality.

Progressive taxation is about removing inequality and redistribution.

Ireland is one of the most unequal countries in the OECD.

ben101

coolemon wrote: »

I have heard that bandied about.

I don't see what is so progressive about the taxation system when there is such a high level of social inequality.

Progressive taxation is about removing inequality and redistribution.
.

I agree ,while our tax system is considered progressive,the problem lies with how quickly you can fall into the highest bracket which is where you get the inequality.Most countries you would have to be earning nearly double what you earn here before you hit the highest bracket,the guy in the middle (low to mid income) truly gets a kicking in this country tax wise.

steddyeddy

Right wingers (and a lot on the extreme left) are some of the most self entitled people I meet on a daily basis. Most bang on about hard work and values without acknowledging the head start they may have had on others (better school ect).

coolemon

steddyeddy wrote: »

Right wingers (and a lot on the extreme left) are some of the most self entitled people I meet on a daily basis. Most bang on about hard work and values without acknowledging the head start they may have had on others (better school ect).

I don't get what you mean about those on the extreme left. The whole point of being of the left is to emphasise circumstances and social determinants over individual 'hard work' and greatness.

steddyeddy

coolemon wrote: »

I don't get what you mean about those on the extreme left. The whole point of being of the left is to emphasise circumstances and social determinants over individual 'hard work' and greatness.

I'll be honest I find the left a more intelligent bunch. One chap had an argument with me about people on the dole getting money for nothing despite the Blackrock graduate received an unearned educational advantage.

Idbatterim

Ireland has one of the most progressive income tax systems in the world while having one of the most generous welfare systems in the world

Genuinely surely we are well ahead of any other first world country, when it comes to the ridiculous rate of marginal rate taxation at a pittance of an income, and all it gets you is struck off the goody train. You pay ridiculous levels of income tax and then outrageous levels for property, child care and health in particular...

jank

coolemon wrote: »

No harm in being a communist. Only in parochial Ireland and her fellow insulated English speaking countries is it something only mad people believe in.

Go to eastern Europe and ask the people there what life was like under the Communists. They are mostly if not more anti-communist than the west, because they actually had to live under it.

jank

coolemon wrote: »

Notice that in the graph below four of the top 5 are English speaking. In these countries there is also no notable history of a large and organised socialist or communist movement. That unlike almost all of those others listed. I fully agree with you. Indeed I would go further. Capitalism needs replacing. Root and branch.

Replace with what exactly?

jank

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'll be honest I find the left a more intelligent bunch. One chap had an argument with me about people on the dole getting money for nothing despite the Blackrock graduate received an unearned educational advantage.

Are you still beating that drum? Did this person not do the standard leaving cert like everyone else in the state? Ireland is one of the most wealthy countries in the world, should we therefore say in a world context that the student going to school in Ballymun received an unearned advantage over someone from South Africa?

gesler

We have no need for a right wing party when the big 2 are so easily manipulated by the business community(religious orders in the past), right wing parties are by and large mouth pieces for commerce and mainly utilised for the underhanded attaining of advantages of commercial entities over the consumer/public to the benefit of their shareholders/themselves.

Apart from a few (in Ireland this is very small) students who actually believe in right wing ethos the odd chancer/propaganda tool with dreams of monetary gain the NEED for a right wing party in Ireland is negligible and as such not likely in the next 5 or 10 years.

Loafing Oaf

gesler wrote: »

We have no need for a right wing party when the big 2 are so easily manipulated by the business community(.

Do you honestly believe FF and FG are massively right-wing by international standards?

I think the left should welcome the emergence of a more defined right-wing party, as that would lead to a more polarised politics as opposed to the current congregation round a centrist mush.

BoJack Horseman

Indeed there is no right wing presence as is.

All parties are big government/big spend.

Some are just more committed to the all encompassing state than others

gesler

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Do you honestly believe FF and FG are massively right-wing by international standards?

I think the left should welcome the emergence of a more defined right-wing party, as that would lead to a more polarised politics as opposed to the current congregation round a centrist mush.

Never said they were massively right wing, I said they were easily manipulated by commercial concerns and that nullifies the need foe a natural right wing party as there is no appetite to invest/seed such a party by the said concerns.

Basically they are feckless and have no interest in protecting the citizens from the vultures, they don't even need paying off (how right wing parties come into being)......

coolemon

jank wrote: »

Go to eastern Europe and ask the people there what life was like under the Communists. They are mostly if not more anti-communist than the west, because they actually had to live under it.

Eastern Europe was a form of capitalism.

Socialism and communism are classless. Eastern Europe was a class society.

Do you know what class is in the Marxian sense?

Even under the state capitalist system you seem to refer to as Communist, your assertion is debatable really. From a quick search.

(81%) Serbia - 24/12/2010 - Serbia Poll: Life Was Better Under Tito - http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/arti...-their-country#

(62%) Hungary - 6/6/2009 - Most Hungarians feel life was better under communism - http://21stcenturysocialism.com/arti...ism_01674.html

(57%) East Germany - 7/3/2009 - Majority of Eastern Germans Feel Life Better under Communism - http://www.spiegel.de/international/...634122,00.html

(61%) - 17/10/2010 - Romania - Romanians say life better under communism - http://richardbrenneman.wordpress.co...der-communism/


Oppressive and grey? No, growing up under communism was the happiest time of my life - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz19FEG2hRD

coolemon

jank wrote: »

Replace with what exactly?

Socialism.

coolemon

Some more recent polls from a 2 minute search as the other ones are from a post years ago. The results are understandable, state capitalism had many many merits and it was clearly not the barbarism it was made out to be in western propaganda.

Romania - 13/11/2014 - 44.4 percent of the respondents believed that living conditions were better under communism - https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/raluca-besliu/communist-nostalgia-in-romania

Russia - 12/10/2013 - 60 percent of Russians see communism as good system - http://rbth.co.uk/news/2013/10/12/about_60_percent_of_russians_see_communism_as_good_system_-_poll_30755.html

Czech Republic - 31/01/2013 - 33 percent now claim that the communist rule was better - http://www.b92.net/eng/news/world.php?yyyy=2013&mm=01&dd=31&nav_id=84442

Poland - 04/06/2012 - 25 percent of the populace believe the country would be better off under a communist regime - http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/137537,Poll-oneinfour-Poles-would-prefer-communist-state

Icepick

coolemon wrote: »

Notice that in the graph below four of the top 5 are English speaking. In these countries there is also no notable history of a large and organised socialist or communist movement. That unlike almost all of those others listed. I fully agree with you. Indeed I would go further. Capitalism needs replacing. Root and branch.

low wage you say?
How about the minimum wage?


Low wage in Greece is something completely different from low wage in Ireland.

Icepick

coolemon wrote: »

I have heard that bandied about.

I don't see what is so progressive about the taxation system when there is such a high level of social inequality.

Progressive taxation is about removing inequality and redistribution.

Ireland is one of the most unequal countries in the OECD.

There are OECD countries with average wages lower than the dole here.

hfallada

coolemon wrote: »

Some more recent polls from a 2 minute search as the other ones are from a post years ago. The results are understandable, state capitalism had many many merits and it was clearly not the barbarism it was made out to be in western propaganda.

Romania - 13/11/2014 - 44.4 percent of the respondents believed that living conditions were better under communism - https://www.opendemocracy.net/can-europe-make-it/raluca-besliu/communist-nostalgia-in-romania

Russia - 12/10/2013 - 60 percent of Russians see communism as good system - http://rbth.co.uk/news/2013/10/12/about_60_percent_of_russians_see_communism_as_good_system_-_poll_30755.html

Czech Republic - 31/01/2013 - 33 percent now claim that the communist rule was better - http://www.b92.net/eng/news/world.php?yyyy=2013&mm=01&dd=31&nav_id=84442

Poland - 04/06/2012 - 25 percent of the populace believe the country would be better off under a communist regime - http://www.thenews.pl/1/9/Artykul/137537,Poll-oneinfour-Poles-would-prefer-communist-state

But these are generally polls about economic effects of communism. It doesnt take into account the huge psychological affects of communism. The constant living of fear from the secret police. The fact that you couldnt speak freely as the secret police might be monitoring your home. The fact there were orphanages full of babies who lacked any sense of emotion in Romania. There was no free press and few human rights.

If communism was so glorious. Why did people risk their lives to cross the Berlin Wall? Why did the Berlin wall have to be built in the first place? To stop people leaving for better opportunities in the west.

The transition from communism to capitalism cant happen over night. Even within 20 years West Germany is still far superior to East Germany economically.But the gap is narrowing. It took Ireland a long time to recover from the poor economic management of the country in the 1980s. This long wait still needs to happen for Eastern Europe.

coolemon

hfallada wrote: »

But these are generally polls about economic effects of communism. It doesnt take into account the huge psychological affects of communism. The constant living of fear from the secret police. The fact that you couldnt speak freely as the secret police might be monitoring your home. The fact there were orphanages full of babies who lacked any sense of emotion in Romania. There was no free press and few human rights.

If communism was so glorious. Why did people risk their lives to cross the Berlin Wall? Why did the Berlin wall have to be built in the first place? To stop people leaving for better opportunities in the west.

The transition from communism to capitalism cant happen over night. Even within 20 years West Germany is still far superior to East Germany economically.But the gap is narrowing. It took Ireland a long time to recover from the poor economic management of the country in the 1980s. This long wait still needs to happen for Eastern Europe.

Its sounds like you misread me advocating a totalitarian state somewhere.

I don't. I advocate communism.

I never said totalitarian state-capitalism was glorious. I said it has its merits, and those merits are reflected in the large amounts of people who would prefer it.

Many of the most important stresses that exist for people in Ireland did not exist in state-capitalism. Mortgages, healthcare, education, jobs, security, and so on, were provided.

So I can understand why so many people would want it back. And anyone who looks at the matter objectively would too.

coolemon

Icepick wrote: »

low wage you say?
How about the minimum wage?


Low wage in Greece is something completely different from low wage in Ireland.

The important factor in advanced capitalist states is social inequality, not wage levels.

Read The Spirit Level.

BoJack Horseman

For any kids hankering for a taste of what communism offers, its never too late.

You just need 778 of those wicked decadent Euros you can be queuing for beetroot & rations of US grain in no time!

http://www.skyscanner.ie/transport/flights/dub/fnj/141102/airfares-from-dublin-to-pyongyang-in-november-2014.html?rtn=0

Just pack your bags with naievity & medicine and your dreams are just a one way flight away!

coolemon

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

For any kids hankering for a taste of what communism offers, its never too late.

You just need 778 of those wicked decadent Euros you can be queuing for beetroot & rations of US grain in no time!

http://www.skyscanner.ie/transport/flights/dub/fnj/141102/airfares-from-dublin-to-pyongyang-in-november-2014.html?rtn=0

Just pack your bags with naievity & medicine and your dreams are just a one way flight away!

Yes but we know that there is a crust in NK that are well fed every evening.

Unlike many of the homeless and beggars I step over on my way to work in this glorious utopia. Or the thousands of children going to school hungry. Or of those who pack the missions throughout Dublin.

Many in NK have it good in comparison.

Hold the Cheez Whiz

coolemon wrote: »

Yes but we know that there is a crust in NK that are well fed every evening.

Unlike many of the homeless and beggars I step over on my way to work in this glorious utopia. Or the thousands of children going to school hungry. Or of those who pack the missions throughout Dublin.

Many in NK have it good in comparison.

You don't think there are thousands of hungry people in NK? An estimated tenth of the population died of famine in the 1990s.

coolemon

Hold the Cheez Whiz wrote: »

You don't think there are thousands of hungry people in NK? An estimated tenth of the population died of famine in the 1990s.

Oh I do. I also believe there are tens of millions hungry in western Europe. That's why painting a picture of existing state-capitalist societies with big brush strokes isn't the best idea. Particularly when fine brushes are used when talking about the market/welfare societies of the west. There is a whiff of hypocrisy about it.

Gloomtastic!

How did a thread about the potential for (or lack of it) a right wing party in Ireland, get hijacked by someone advocating communism?

steddyeddy

jank wrote: »

Are you still beating that drum? Did this person not do the standard leaving cert like everyone else in the state? Ireland is one of the most wealthy countries in the world, should we therefore say in a world context that the student going to school in Ballymun received an unearned advantage over someone from South Africa?

I hear that again and again. I was letting it slide before but in all honesty that has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard.

Test is an end result. Tests test for a certain number of variables. For instance two people might enter a race. Person A has a great coach and person B hasn't but according to you that doesn't matter because they both do the same race.

Now for the love of god you cannot tell me you believe that line in logic.

steddyeddy

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

How did a thread about the potential for (or lack of it) a right wing party in Ireland, get hijacked by someone advocating communism?

It didn't some people equate socialism with the Russian communist state. About as intelligent as someone equating the right with a Nazi regime.

steddyeddy

jank wrote: »

Are you still beating that drum? Did this person not do the standard leaving cert like everyone else in the state? Ireland is one of the most wealthy countries in the world, should we therefore say in a world context that the student going to school in Ballymun received an unearned advantage over someone from South Africa?

Are both kids doing the same test? If so yes we would have a problem of determining the brightest student.

jank

coolemon wrote: »

I don't. I advocate communism.

One cannot have a communist state without it being somewhat authoritarian.

jank

coolemon wrote: »

Socialism.

Can you give me an example of a country that practised your version of non capitalist socialism.

jank

steddyeddy wrote: »

I hear that again and again. I was letting it slide before but in all honesty that has to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard.

Test is an end result. Tests test for a certain number of variables. For instance two people might enter a race. Person A has a great coach and person B hasn't but according to you that doesn't matter because they both do the same race.

Now for the love of god you cannot tell me you believe that line in logic.

Yes, a certain number of variables but you seem to focus on the private school vs public school debate in a monochromatic fashion. I have seen your posts about this issue before and they seem to have a scent of a very large chip.

steddyeddy

jank wrote: »

Yes, a certain number of variables but you seem to focus on the private school vs public school debate in a monochromatic fashion. I have seen your posts about this issue before and they seem to have a scent of a very large chip.

A the chip card. I believe that the test is being skewed in favour of those born into better off families and we could do more to make the leaving cert more about innate ability.

People who can't handle this fact use the ad hominid attack strategy.

Icepick

coolemon wrote: »

Its sounds like you misread me advocating a totalitarian state somewhere.

I don't. I advocate communism.

Communism is by definition totalitarian.

Icepick

coolemon wrote: »

The important factor in advanced capitalist states is social inequality, not wage levels.

If even people on the minimum wage and welfare can live comfortable lives, you could care less that there are billionaires. If however even people on average wages can barely afford to live comfortably, which is the case in most of the world, you also don't care if everyone else is also struggling.
Unless you are a very greedy and jealous person without the ability to improve your standing that is.

poteen o hooley

This is the ideal time for an ultra right wing party, especially if the far right can sieze complete control in the US.

They have leant zilch from Lehmann's and still gibber that the crash was caused by taxes and regulation. Let them have a free rein, 'cos, and I am serious, a further even more potent dose of neo liberal free market psuedo economic hogwash will deliver the mother, father and wicked auntie of all crises and crashes.

It will only be then that self serving anti human scourge of neo colonial mercantilism will be dropped shamefaced from the repetoire pf socio-economic psychoses that appear regularly like cultural plagues throughout the long history of human struggle for progress.

Poteen is now lying down and having a rest.

coolemon

Icepick wrote: »

Communism is by definition totalitarian.

Not communism in the Marxist and anarchist tradition.

What you refer to is called a 'Communist State' - ie. where a Communist Party is the sole ruling political organisation. Even in those societies the ruling party almost always defines the society as "socialist". Rarely if ever as communist. ->ie "Chinese path to Socialism," or "Union of Soviet Socialist Republics", and so on.

Communism by definition is stateless and classless. The complete opposite to the totalitarian capitalism you refer.

coolemon

Icepick wrote: »

If even people on the minimum wage and welfare can live comfortable lives, you could care less that there are billionaires. If however even people on average wages can barely afford to live comfortably, which is the case in most of the world, you also don't care if everyone else is also struggling.
Unless you are a very greedy and jealous person without the ability to improve your standing that is.

Usually economic inequality is based upon the differentials between the lowest 20% and the highest 20%. In the more wealthy and advanced countries the levels of wealth per capita start to have diminishing returns in terms of social well being and improvement levels. What matters, it has been found, are the levels of social inequality.

read The Spirit Level.

coolemon

jank wrote: »

One cannot have a communist state without it being somewhat authoritarian.

I never advocated a "communist state". By definition communism is stateless.

Can you give me an example of a country that practised your version of non capitalist socialism.

Marxism and anarchism can be seen to be processes which aim to end social an economic antagonisms. A society without antagonisms (the most important of which being class) is called communism.

There are no "examples". I advocate a process, not a template or blueprint.

If pressed I would point to the Spanish Revolution. But doing that does not accurately express my particular political position which recognises and advocates a process.

FreudianSlippers

steddyeddy wrote: »

.

People who can't handle this fact use the ad hominid attack strategy.

Damn. I too hate when people attack the apes.

steddyeddy

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Damn. I too hate when people attack the apes.

I think you're confusing the common usage of hominid with the scientific meaning.

hmmm

steddyeddy wrote: »

I think you're confusing the common usage of hominid with the scientific meaning.

Common? If only I had a penny for every time someone used the word "hominid", I'd have a penny by now.

Dickie10

i think id like to get to know the reform alliance better , they tick a lot of boxes to me

steddyeddy

hmmm wrote: »

Common? If only I had a penny for every time someone used the word "hominid", I'd have a penny by now.

Well anyone who calls a spade a spade is fit to use one.

jank

steddyeddy wrote: »

A the chip card. I believe that the test is being skewed in favour of those born into better off families and we could do more to make the leaving cert more about innate ability.

People who can't handle this fact use the ad hominid attack strategy.

Now that is a different question, and something that I would agree with, reform of the leaving cert. I think Universities should have the basis in which they set their own rules for entry. The most important variable in regards education is the parents advocation of it. However, unless you want to beat sense into parents there is not much you can do about it, only to penalise children and parents who advocate education, so much so that some will send their children to private schools and or pay for grinds. Its easy to drag them down to a level, much harder to drag other kids up to their level.

I have always stated that the issue is not with private secondary schools. The issue is with primary education and early childhood education. Funds should be going there first and foremost. Of course unions don't help either, just look at job bridge and their reluctance to grant qualified teachers the opportunity to work in schools on that scheme. Imagine the difference 6 months of one to one teaching would have on a 6 year old in a disadvantaged school! Immeasurable. So yes, you can beat the private school drum, but the reality is that there are other more pressing issues out there than that same tired argument.