Insane private school fees.

steddyeddy

In fairness money doesn't directly translate to success. The school has a large influence on success imho. There is no link between having rich parents and being intelligence.

SaveOurLyric

VinLieger wrote: »

That is some seriously fallacious reasoning. Again simply becuase rich kids do better does not mean they do better cus they are rich.

Why not ?

cloud493

steddyeddy wrote: »

If that's the case why do people pay to send kids to private schools?

For contacts, as other people have stated, among other facilities. Or maybe their child just cant be facilitated at normal schools.

osarusan

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Nobody apart from the person who said just a few posts ago: "How much your family earns strongly influences how many points you will get. Therefore, the system favours those with richer families."

again, that's not saying it's the only factor. Nobody is saying that.

But to say that going to to good school can't have any influence your leaving cert points is silly. Of course a good school can have that influence.

And people want to send their kids to good schools. If they're private schools, some will be happy to pay for that, whereas others won't have the money.

ProfessorPlum

steddyeddy wrote: »

The school you go to influences how well you do in the leaving cert.

Yes that is a factor. Providing they actually go to school. A child who is supported at home to actually go to school, work hard and achieve the best they can be is by far the greatest influence on how well kids do.

VinLieger

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Why not ?

Because there are so many other factors mainly as someone else previously said your background and how you are raised

gubbie

cloud493 wrote: »

I was just watching one of the re-runs of harrow a very british school on sky 1, and they happened to mention the annual school fees are £30,000 a year :eek:
Thats insanity,
I don't think I'd send my kid there, even if I could afford it. I mean the school looks good for sure, but they don't seem particularly friendly, they exist, as they themselves state, in a bubble of privilege and are isolated from the regular community, cant be good for them once they're done with the school, and... I just wouldn't. Its insane. Even if the facilities are that good.

How about you guys?

I've not been to Harrow, but I went to another, Radley with fees of £33,000 a year, as a teacher supervising a trip. Now I went to a private school, my brothers went to private boarding schools in Ireland, but I saw things in that school that just blew my mind away.

What I was disgusted about was their class snobbery and built in sexism. I felt a bit sorry for our lads, whose parents don't make close to £33,000. They seemed so out of place.

Their school uniform was trousers, shirt, cape... cape! As my house mate once said "I used to think that having a blazer as part of your school uniform was posh..."

To be fair, the food was incredible though!

evolving_doors

The op's point is equivalent to giving out about the price of Kobi beef in India, and inferring it has some bearing on the beef industry here...

There are NO private schools in ireland which are exclusively funded by private means. Except for 'grind schools' like The Institue etc... which don't offer a complete secondary education (1st yr to 6th).

Shakespeare's Sister

gubbie wrote: »

I've not been to Harrow, but I went to another, Radley with fees of £33,000 a year, as a teacher supervising a trip. Now I went to a private school, my brothers went to private boarding schools in Ireland, but I saw things in that school that just blew my mind away.

What I was disgusted about was their class snobbery and built in sexism. I felt a bit sorry for our lads, whose parents don't make close to £33,000. They seemed so out of place.

Their school uniform was trousers, shirt, cape... cape! As my house mate once said "I used to think that having a blazer as part of your school uniform was posh..."

To be fair, the food was incredible though!

Lol at the cape bit.

steddyeddy

AndonHandon wrote: »

+1

The parents also pay tax but have made a decision to supplement their tax with fees.

OK great but what did the student do to earn the place in a fee paying school? Why should the tax a person's parents pay potentially give that child an extra advantage over someone else in what's supposed to be a standardised test?

ZeroThreat

I went to a large human cattle ranch, also known as a CBS boys school on the Long Mile Road...

gubbie

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

Lol at the cape bit.

Actual capes!

If I can afford it, I'll send my kids private, but I won't send them to boarding school. Kids need to grow up with their brothers and sisters and family.

The reason parents send their kids to private schools is often the same reason they send them to Gaelscoils - they see them as having a better "quality" of student. Parents aren't going to pay for a school unless they value education, just like people aren't going to make their kids go off and learn things through Irish unless they value education. So the schools are full of kids whose parents value education, instead of in a public school (such as the one I thought in) where about 20% of the parents didn't. So you get behavioural problems.

shruikan2553

steddyeddy wrote: »

OK great but what did the student do to earn the place in a fee paying school? Why should the tax a person's parents pay potentially give that child an extra advantage over someone else in what's supposed to be a standardised test?

The same thing any other child does to earn a place in any school.

twinytwo

shruikan2553 wrote: »

There is nothing stopping a person from getting 600 points no matter what school they go to. You dont just pay a few thousand euro and they automatically add 200 points. In the end they all do the same exam.

I went to a public school with people who got 600 points and people who were lucking to do their JC. The exam doesnt care how much you paid. You would generally have more people who want to do well in the LC and go to university in a private school helping to put up the average.

You still need to do the work in a private school, any benefits gained from it arent just from handing over money. It may be better facilities, lower student to teacher ratios but the factors aren't just hand money over and get better results unless you are handing the money to the people correcting your exams.

Actually it can make a massive difference... i was lucky enough to do my leaving in a private school after having spent 4 years in a state school.

The problem is with state schools is that you cant get rid of useless teachers or throw out problem students who have no interest in being there but have no problem wrecking it for everyone else.

Yes the private school cost a nice chunk of money, but I got access to some of the best teachers in the country. The entire mind set is different, from everyone wants to be there to the teachers going the extra mile. It is something I will forever be gratefull for.

Icemancometh

Icemancometh wrote: »

I'm sure it is a money saver for the state, but I still have a problem with state subsidised privilege.

Parents pay more tax that regular folk and shouldn't get any of it back like regular folk?

Gyalist

gubbie wrote: »

Actual capes!

The most distinctive that I've seen is that worn by the students at Christ's Hospital in Sussex.

steddyeddy

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Parents pay more tax that regular folk and shouldn't get any of it back like regular folk?

Not if it goes towards a conferring an unearned educational advantage to one child over another. How about we make entry to the best schools dependent on a scholarship (I.E) actual merit. People have to learn that education should be rewarded by yourself alone and not what your parents make.

steddyeddy

How many private schools offer scholarships? I know Belvedere offer scholarships and they should be proud to do so. They give people an equal chance to do well.

steddyeddy

Mr.S wrote: »

Plenty of students in very expensive private schools who have no interest in being there and are disruptive...

The mind set does not change just because your parents are paying for you to be there...

True about the teachers, but that's not to say that teachers in public schools are bad? They all go through the same training after all...

I

Just to clarify you think there I no educational (or minimal) educational advantage in fee paying schools?

VinLieger

steddyeddy wrote: »

Not if it goes towards a conferring an unearned educational advantage to one child over another. How about we make entry to the best schools dependent on a scholarship (I.E) actual merit. People have to learn that education should be rewarded by yourself alone and not what your parents make.

I disagree because in my opinion whatever failings the leaving cert does have it is uniquely suited to being fair across the board in that if you simply do the work you will do well.

In this case it is much more up to the environment you are raised in and the attitude to education of your parents than the school you go to.

cloud493

steddyeddy wrote: »

How many private schools offer scholarships? I know Belvedere offer scholarships and they should be proud to do so. They give people an equal chance to do well.

I think most of them do. Harrow did an entire TV program on its scholarships for the less well off.

ProfessorPlum

steddyeddy wrote: »

How many private schools offer scholarships? I know Belvedere offer scholarships and they should be proud to do so. They give people an equal chance to do well.

Most of them do. You should object strongly on the grounds that it is 'buying an educational advantage'.

steddyeddy

VinLieger wrote: »

I disagree because in my opinion whatever failings the leaving cert does have it is uniquely suited to being fair across the board in that if you simply do the work you will do well.

In this case it is much more up to the environment you are raised in and the attitude to education of your parents than the school you go to.

You cannot expect me to believe that student teacher ratios, teachers and subjects offered do not make a difference.

steddyeddy

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Most of them do. You should object strongly on the grounds that it is 'buying an educational advantage'.

I won a scholarship to do a masters and one which paid some uni fees in my third year. It was earned because i worked hard and was good at what I do. It's a far cry from rewarding me because of what my parents could afford.

steddyeddy

It's amazing that the people who are in support of private schools think they make relatively little difference to education.

ProfessorPlum

steddyeddy wrote: »

You cannot expect me to believe that student teacher ratios, teachers and subjects offered do not make a difference.

DEIS schools tend to have more favourable student teacher ratios than private schools, and private schools tend to offer a smaller range often of more tradition subjects (anyone for Latin and Greek?)

Hint: it's about more than money.

steddyeddy

Tarzana wrote: »

You do need to delve deeper into the socioeconomic reasons for that too though. It's not just about money. Are children from some areas and backgrounds likely to get more parental support than others? This is something that needs to be looked at and examined. And parents need to be encouraged to get more involved.

I agree parental support is of utmost importance but school plays a large part in it too. Children need to be inspired to love learning. My parents didn't go to college but I met a great physicist who inspired me to study science. Educators make a huge difference to education.

steddyeddy

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

DEIS schools tend to have more favourable student teacher ratios than private schools, and private schools tend to offer a smaller range often of more tradition subjects (anyone for Latin and Greek?)

Hint: it's about more than money.

Actually some schools don't offer the option to do higher level in some subjects or the same range of modern languages.

You don't seem to understand my argument. Hint it's not money=leaving cert points. It's that the school makes a huge difference to how a person is educated.

As for DEIS schools a large number of students from DEIS school are entering third level education and doing brilliantly. So they are benefiting from increased teacher student ratio. They can't however get rid of sub par teachers with the same efficiency that private schools do.

steddyeddy

Mr.S wrote: »

Fully depends on the student.

So a student that wants to learn will have an educational advantage?

ProfessorPlum

steddyeddy wrote: »

I won a scholarship to do a masters and one which paid some uni fees in my third year. It was earned because i worked hard and was good at what I do. It's a far cry from rewarding me because of what my parents could afford.

Do you think your success at secondary and third level had anything to do with your upbringing and support from home where you where taught the importance of education? Or should I assume that your parents 'bought' you your leaving cert and college entry.

steddyeddy

Mr.S wrote: »

In more or less words, yes.

Plenty of students in my (private school) did **** in exams. Totally depends on what attitude you have, and sure - in private schools you get access to more resources that can aide you to do better in your education.

That isn't to say that just because your in a public school, your at a disadvantage?

No but a clever person in a public school well have a harder time of it than someone in a private school. (depends on the school in both cases of course.) I'll add that your attitude can be shaped by your teachers. One teacher told me I was brilliant and I believed it. Others who were far smarter than me heard they would never go to college and believed it. Encouragement matters hugely.

steddyeddy

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Do you think your success at secondary and third level had anything to do with your upbringing and support from home where you where taught the importance of education? Or should I assume that your parents 'bought' you your leaving cert and college entry.

Well my parents didn't take an interest in my education so no I got no support really. I was unusual because I self taught myself a lot of science ect and used that to supplement my teacher's lack of effort. No I didn't go to private school. I suppose my unique self achievement makes me question people who get handed access to top schools.

shruikan2553

twinytwo wrote: »

Actually it can make a massive difference... i was lucky enough to do my leaving in a private school after having spent 4 years in a state school.

The problem is with state schools is that you cant get rid of useless teachers or throw out problem students who have no interest in being there but have no problem wrecking it for everyone else.

Yes the private school cost a nice chunk of money, but I got access to some of the best teachers in the country. The entire mind set is different, from everyone wants to be there to the teachers going the extra mile. It is something I will forever be gratefull for.

In my school we were split into classes based on previous results. Problem students existed but they werent in the honours classes so the students aiming to do well in the LC ran into no problems.

They do have access to better facilities in private schools but access to them and using them effectively are two different things. Many people I know who did grinds for the LC didn't do any better than those who didnt despite having the extra resources.

ProfessorPlum

steddyeddy wrote: »

Actually some schools don't offer the option to do higher level in some subjects or the same range of modern languages.

You don't seem to understand my argument. Hint it's not money=leaving cert points. It's that the school makes a huge difference to how a person is educated.

As for DEIS schools a large number of students from DEIS school are entering third level education and doing brilliantly. So they are benefiting from increased teacher student ratio. They can't however get rid of sub par teachers with the same efficiency that private schools do.

Schools don't have to offer higher level - a student can ask for whatever paper he wants. Private schools don't often offer a vast range of subjects - they tend to be smaller, and therefore have less teachers and so can't offer as broad a range as many state schools.
Look there are lots of factors that come into play. The child own attitude to learning is by far the most important, and that attitude is generally informed by their parents. Some kids are self motivated in this regard - like you, but it's is less common. After that, other factors come into it. The quality of the school being one. It doesn't really matter if it's a private school or a great state school. If the ethos is towards achievement and not crowd control, children will do better.
My fear is that if we decide to pull state funding to private schools, the public system will be further stretched and standards will drop. The only people who can afford the new private schools will be the super rich, and we will end up with with a super elite class (like the Eton and Harrow old boys club) and from there we will see our future 'captains of industry' being plucked. Private school in the uk, at least the super elite ones the OP refers to, is not about exam results (there's plenty if private tutoring available that would be a lot cheaper). It's about access to the super elite class and the contacts and 'leg up' it provides. I wouldn't like to see this country go the same way.

Icemancometh

animaal wrote: »

There are plenty of ways in which people accept the services provided by the state, but add to them using private funds. I don't see a problem with this.

Are you ok with people accepting the state contributary pension, but also having a private pension? Or people being able to call the Gardai after a burglary, even though they have a monitored alarm system? Or people who own a car being able to buy tickets on the (state-subsidised) public transport system?

The state is supposed to be more than a big mechanism for the transfer of wealth to those who have less. It's also supposed to provide services to its citizens.

Kids who go to private schools get a better start in life than kids who go to public schools. Now obviously this isn't true in each and every case, but it is true on the whole. This gives these kids an advantage over less fortunate children. This exists in pretty much every society, and there's nothing you can do to stop the injustice of the less well off being disadvantaged at the start of life compared to those with more resources. But the state shouldn't encourage it, particularly in what we call a republic.

Just as an example, I checked out the Supreme Court on wikipedia (figured no better example of privilege than this!) Of the 11 judges, wikipedia only has details on the secondary educations of 6. 4 of these are fee-paying.

Vinnie L

A kid born in Ireland has a better life opportunity if he wants it, than a kid born in Africa.

A hard working kid that finds himself in a private school has a better life opportunity than a hard working kid in a public school.

A arse hole or a waster in either type of school, will always be an arse hole or a waster regardless of what school they went to.

byhookorbycrook

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Nevertheless, they do.

Dubious, actually, some private schools refuse children with special needs, have parents who pay fortunes for grinds and the so-called league tables do not take certain colleges into account for stats purposes.

animaal

Icemancometh wrote: »

But the state shouldn't encourage it, particularly in what we call a republic.

And the state doesn't; it provides less funding to fee-paying schools than it does to non-fee-paying schools.

jellyytots

I am very lucky to work in a DEIS Band 1 school. I only have 22 pupils and the school is a state of the art spacious building. The kids want for nothing, they get free meals throughout the day and are really proud of their school. It's amazing how much a nice environment and support can change attitudes towards learning. I have friends who work in wealthy areas, don't even have a PE hall and have ratios of up to 35:1

Chinasea

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Dubious, actually, some private schools refuse children with special needs, have parents who pay fortunes for grinds and the so-called league tables do not take certain colleges into account for stats purposes.

Absolutely, and the likes of Scoil Lorcáin in Monkstown ethos is: special needs, non-natives NEED NOT apply.

evolving_doors

Chinasea wrote: »

Absolutely, and the likes of Scoil Lorcáin in Monkstown ethos is: special needs, non-natives NEED NOT apply.

Where does it state this?

evolving_doors

Mr.S wrote: »

In more or less words, yes.

Plenty of students in my (private) school did **** in exams. Totally depends on what attitude you have, and sure - in private schools you get access to more resources that can aide you to do better in your education.

That isn't to say that just because your in a public school, your at a disadvantage?

Interestingly, because of the difference in PTR some 'non fee charging schools' are in a better position resources wise by devolving from the fee charging aspect...

look at the school in Kilkenny which 'went public'... it got to keep and take on extra teachers + the yearly buildings allowance grant + an allocation for learning support ... none of which they would have gotten from 'private fees'. And, as they were probably heavily focused on academic sucess I can probably hazzard a guess that their numbers are well up this year (with the resources that follow the numbers).

So if we want a truly divided sector we as citizens are going to have to pay for the devolution of the current fee-charging system.. plus the ultra elitism that will be needed to justify the 40k fees for totally private schools (with no monies from the state).

evolving_doors

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Dubious, actually, some private schools refuse children with special needs, have parents who pay fortunes for grinds and the so-called league tables do not take certain colleges into account for stats purposes.

Hmm I think they could never outright refuse admission though as they'd be legally in very troubled water...

Missyelliot2

jellyytots wrote: »

I am very lucky to work in a DEIS Band 1 school. I only have 22 pupils and the school is a state of the art spacious building. The kids want for nothing, they get free meals throughout the day and are really proud of their school. It's amazing how much a nice environment and support can change attitudes towards learning. I have friends who work in wealthy areas, don't even have a PE hall and have ratios of up to 35:1

My own children are in schools where there is a ratio of 32:1. I teach in DEIS school where class sizes are 22-25:1 - with SNAs in all rooms.
The kids also get free lunches, fantastic facilities etc.....which is great.

I object to people deriding fee paying school attendees - we have made huge sacrifices to send our children through the private school system. I have told my kids, that all I can offer them is a good education-the rest is up to them.

jobbridge4life

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

My tax isn't benefiting me in a lot of cases but I still have to pay .I'm indirectly funding all schools in this country. I've no children so therefore I'm just educating the little ****ers that will be competition for my job in a few years time.Should I be allowed to complain about this or should I accept that you have to pay tax whether or not you get the benefit out of it.

Try live in a country with uneducated masses and see whether you still don't think you get a benefit from public education even sans children.

steddyeddy

I can't agree with social Darwinism however it's wrapped up. The income of your parents shouldn't be allowed to give you an academic advantage over others. I just can't see why a standardised test should be exempt from standardisation. It's ant competitive.

VinLieger

steddyeddy wrote: »

I can't agree with social Darwinism however it's wrapped up. The income of your parents shouldn't be allowed to give you an academic advantage over others. I just can't see why a standardised test should be exempt from standardisation. It's ant competitive.

Is this just a problem with the state subsidy or do you disagree with a private school who receives no subsidy whatsoever participating in the leaving cert as well?

SaveOurLyric

steddyeddy wrote: »

The income of your parents shouldn't be allowed to give you an academic advantage over others.

Why not ?

byhookorbycrook

Armelodie wrote: »

Hmm I think they could never outright refuse admission though as they'd be legally in very troubled water...

http://www.independent.ie/life/family/learning/new-entry-rules-will-prevent-schools-from-cherrypicking-pupils-29544181.html

Mr Quinn said the draft proposals will also look to improve the situation for children with learning difficulties.
“Parents of children with learning difficulties encounter ‘soft’ barriers, suggestions to the effect of ‘well look we’d love to take your child here but really they’re better off in another school’.

Interesting to read in the papers this weekend that past pupils of some private fee paying schools are looking to challenge the new guidelines legally.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/exrock-and-belvo-pupils-urged-to-rise-up-over-ban-30655206.html

steddyeddy

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Why not ?

Because we end up with a distorted view of who is academically gifted. Two people do the same test with different variables such as class size and you can't get an accurate result. It goes against scientific method.