Tánaiste Moany Burton: IW protesters 'seem to have extremely expensive phones'

ennis81

joe swanson wrote: »

The protesters also have an unvouched expense account. It's called the dole.

Jesus Joe do you not understand there are genuinely alot of people on the dole who don't want to be, like myself??? Do you have any idea what it is like to scratch and save and be worried EVERY WEEK?? Obviously you don't, I literally can't not afford to be squeezed any tighter, I can not afford another bill
If I live to be an auld woman and I doubt it at this rate, I will never EVER forget how I have been treated not only by the system (the social welfare) but by my fellow Irish Citizens who are lucky enough that they have enough, and are fully financially able to pay all these taxes.

KomradeBishop

ennis81 wrote: »

Jesus Joe do you not understand there are genuinely alot of people on the dole who don't want to be, like myself??? Do you have any idea what it is like to scratch and save and be worried EVERY WEEK?? Obviously you don't, I literally can't not afford to be squeezed any tighter, I can not afford another bill
If I live to be an auld woman and I doubt it at this rate, I will never EVER forget how I have been treated not only by the system (the social welfare) but by my fellow Irish Citizens who are lucky enough that they have enough, and are fully financially able to pay all these taxes.

Ya that kind of dole-bashing is just ignorance bordering on outright bigotry.

In Lonesome Dove

ennis81 wrote: »

I will be attending the protest on Saturday
I lost my job in January 2013 got a p/t job in dublin 4 straight away (I am a northsider) I have since applied for an average of 10 jobs per week, I have had 2 interviews from all those applications and didn't get the positions, I am a fully qualified book keeper and part qualified accountant, I decided to borrow to go back to college, I can't even get a crappy tax credit for my college fees as they have increased the amount that is disregarded for part time college fees. So all of you full time workers who think we are all spongers are wrong, I am really upset after reading some of the comments here from people, people like me really want a job but there so many applications for each job it seems hopeless.
Aside from the fact my water supply is so bad it is undrinkable, (I have contacted Irish water and the local council about what they propose to do about our filthy water, they both said someone would call me back... Still waiting on those calls) I spend an average of €10 on bottled water every week that is €520 per year (including vat) so am I not already paying for water??? Or should I take my chances and drink my filthy tap water and hand over my money to Irish water instead? I will march on Saturday because I'm so sick of paying for mistakes I didn't make, shame on everybody who has labelled every protester a lazy sponger, by the way my friend gave me her old Samsung phone, I certainly can't afford a fancy phone myself

This is such a brilliant reply. Thank you.

There is a lot of ignorant assumptions online that unemployed people are the source of the country's woes. That they are all lazy scum who never worked a day in their life's and never intend to. The people with these assumptions are misdirecting their anger at the wrong people. Anger brought about due to work like working more for less and financial stress perhaps.

I remember a piece some months back about the long term unemployed as in unemployed since the boom and it's coming into the 40,000's. But even at that, that's just a figure. How much of those were unemployed for a brief period to be replaced other people briefly unemployed. Perhaps college students coming out fron college and unable to get work straight away.

Back on topic, There's about 450,000 people unemployed. A jump of around 410,000. These 400,000 would have lost work through the crash. The credit in the banks dried up which would have had an impact on the construction sector. Lending from the banks were less which would have had an impact on say for example some small businesses relying on bank credit from time to time. Unable to get credit they would have closed doors. We were a country who became too expensive and a lot of manufacturing companies closed to move to cheaper countries letting go of their workforce. These would have had an impact on the services and hospitality sector. With many countries outside of Ireland also in a downturn, that would have had an impact on the tourism sector. Along with these people losing jobs, we having youngsters coming out from college and courses unable to get work.

Albertofrog

Un Croissant wrote: »

So protesters, who in this example are on the dole, should get paid the same as members of parliament?

Did I say that?
Are all the protesters on the dole?
Or is that an assumption on your behalf?

Banjo String

Barely There wrote: »

From what I can see the kind of 'communities' that the protests are taking place in correspond pretty well with the areas where long-term unemployment and social welfare lifestyle are deeply engrained.

You're talking through your hoop here tbh.

Or is their other estates we've had a media blackout from?

Un Croissant

Albertofrog wrote: »

Did I say that?
Are all the protesters on the dole?
Or is that an assumption on your behalf?

Note I said in this example as you seemed to be running with that idea when answering Joe Swanson about 'is there dole not enough'

GarIT

While she wasn't correct to assume all protesters are unemployed I agree with her sentiment. It is sickening hearing about a group of 5 people I know on the dole going up to Belfast to buy the new iPhone on launch day, when an iPhone is something I don't think I'll ever be able to afford.

On the dole you should get food, shelter, light, heat and clothing, everything else is a luxury that only employed people should be able to buy.

Banjo String

GarIT wrote: »

While she wasn't correct to assume all protesters are unemployed I agree with her sentiment. It is sickening hearing about a group of 5 people I know on the dole going up to Belfast to buy the new iPhone on launch day, when an iPhone is something I don't think I'll ever be able to afford.

I wonder which one of the 3 family cars they travelled up in, and if it was before or after their twice annual holiday to Lanzarote?

GarIT

Banjo String wrote: »

I wonder which one of the 3 family cars they travelled up in, and if it was before or after their twice annual holiday to Lanzarote?

I don't get your point?

ennis81

ennis81 wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

This Maryanne84
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Protest-against-water-charges-in-the-republic-of-Ireland/213410058694008

Isn't it a bit silly having them both on the same day?

Banjo String

GarIT wrote: »

I don't get your point?

Everyone has 'heard' some cliché about welfare recipients.

VinLieger

Banjo String wrote: »

Everyone has 'heard' some cliché about welfare recipients.

That does not mean none of them are actually true though

ennis81

Deleted User wrote: »

ennis81 wrote: »

Isn't it a bit silly having them both on the same day?

I didn't organise them!!

Banjo String

VinLieger wrote: »

That does not mean none of them are actually true though

Obviously, but at a guess, I'd say the folk who're 'jetting off' owning multiple cars, and heading to Belfast to buy iPhones on launch day would be most definitely in the minority.

Idbatterim

I wonder which one of the 3 family cars they travelled up in, and if it was before or after their twice annual holiday to Lanzarote?

I got flights to Lanzarote in November for about E100 return, of course they can afford to go...

ennis81

Banjo String wrote: »

Obviously, but at a guess, I'd say the folk who're 'jetting off' owning multiple cars, and heading to Belfast to buy iPhones on launch day would be most definitely in the minority.

Absolutely anyone who is able to afford to go on holidays or purchase Iphones on the dole has to be either a) working somewhere for cash or b) involved in some form of illegal activity, the majority of people on social welfare are SKINT constantly especially families

jimgoose

It is quite possible that we have witnessed Ms. Burton's "Pee Flynn" moment. I do hope so. Hubris gets a lot of them in the finish, why not this vile and insincere termagant of a yoke. :pac:

KomradeBishop

GarIT wrote: »

While she wasn't correct to assume all protesters are unemployed I agree with her sentiment. It is sickening hearing about a group of 5 people I know on the dole going up to Belfast to buy the new iPhone on launch day, when an iPhone is something I don't think I'll ever be able to afford.

On the dole you should get food, shelter, light, heat and clothing, everything else is a luxury that only employed people should be able to buy.

Now this is true begrudgery - looking down on the unemployed so much, that you think they should just subsist, just because you're struggling.

KomradeBishop

VinLieger wrote: »

That does not mean none of them are actually true though

Except Every. Single. Time. such an anecdote is brought up, it is used to bash all of the unemployed by association, which is both highly ignorant and fallacious/untrue.

jimgoose

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Now this is true begrudgery - looking down on the unemployed so much, that you think they should just subsist, just because you're struggling.

This is precisely it. The matter of what unemployed people should and should not be able to afford is a completely different tin a' horse-meat. What we have here is the leader of the Labour Party, worthy spiritual successor to the likes of Keir Hardie and Big Jim Larkin, standing up in the Dáil and offering the view that the Hoi-Polloi aren't acting and looking "poor" enough, the ungrateful wretches. Away unto Ye Bridge of Jobbes wih ye, urchins!! :pac:

GarIT

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Now this is true begrudgery - looking down on the unemployed so much, that you think they should just subsist, just because you're struggling.

If you're not earning why should you be given free stuff from anybody. Humanity dictates that we help them survive, but they shouldn't have access to the same rewards that 40 hours of work each week brings.

Banjo String

GarIT wrote: »

On the dole you should get food, shelter, light, heat and clothing, everything else is a luxury that only employed people should be able to buy.

Whoa, you're confusing the dole and prison, right?

jimgoose

GarIT wrote: »

If you're not earning why should you be given free stuff from anybody. Humanity dictates that we help them survive, but they shouldn't have access to the same rewards that 40 hours of work each week brings.

Damn straight. In fact, they should all be given the Ebola as well. And that'll fcukan learn 'em. :mad:

KomradeBishop

GarIT wrote: »

If you're not earning why should you be given free stuff from anybody. Humanity dictates that we help them survive, but they shouldn't have access to the same rewards that 40 hours of work each week brings.

Everyone deserves a decent quality of life where their physical/emotional/mental health isn't damaged by being forced to live in subsistence, or by having their spending dictated to them (and thus their freedom curtailed), to the point that they are not allowed to enjoy any luxuries in life.

Humanity dictates that you have to justify why people should not be allowed to life free from harm like that, with a decent quality of life - and a begrudging attitude falls far short of providing that justification.

_Kaiser_

GarIT wrote: »

If you're not earning why should you be given free stuff from anybody. Humanity dictates that we help them survive, but they shouldn't have access to the same rewards that 40 hours of work each week brings.

So if I lose my job in the morning, should I hand in everything I worked hard for to get when I go sign on as well?

While I agree with you that the "lifers" who have neither worked nor have any interest in doing so should get a minimum, that's a mighty big brush you're tarring with there!

VinLieger

jimgoose wrote: »

Damn straight. In fact, they should all be given the Ebola as well. And that'll fcukan learn 'em. :mad:

Nice straw man.

Look the simple fact is there is deffinitely a sense of entitlement among a certain class of people on the dole. I'm not saying everyone on the dole suffers from this but there are people who do. Yes some people then use this to tar everyone on the dole with the same brush but it's no different to people who go around claiming that "business owners" and anyone on the higher tax rate is rolling in it and "rich" and should be taxed to the hilt to pay for everything as it's all their fault......

Albertofrog

Un Croissant wrote: »

Note I said in this example as you seemed to be running with that idea when answering Joe Swanson about 'is there dole not enough'

Seemed to.
Right. So you're just either making things up or putting your own interpretation on my words

jimgoose

VinLieger wrote: »

Nice straw man.

Look the simple fact is there is deffinitely a sense of entitlement among a certain class of people on the dole. I'm not saying everyone on the dole suffers from this but there are people who do. Yes some people then use this to tar everyone on the dole with the same brush but it's no different to people who go around claiming that "business owners" and anyone on the higher tax rate is rolling in it and "rich" and should be taxed to the hilt to pay for everything as it's all their fault......

I couldn't agree more. But what you originally said smacked of pulling the ladder up after you and fcuk everyone else. And that wasn't a "strawman", that was straightforward sarcasm!

GarIT

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

So if I lose my job in the morning, should I hand in everything I worked hard for to get when I go sign on as well?

Clearly not. But you should be able to go and buy new luxuries. If you were worried about loosing your job you should have been saving accordingly for that rather than relying on the state to do that for you.

I don't see how people think they are entitled to anything, this luxuries have to be created, people have to work to make them, and everyone should have to work if they wish to receive them.

There should possibly be a grace period, but say after 12 months of unemployment if you are still unemployed and not in education you shouldn't get any more than the essentials. I also support the idea's of scrapping the dole and the government guaranteeing everyone a job on €200 per week, if you want more you need to go and get yourself a better job.

Social welfare payments are also disproportionate, admittedly some families are struggling, but single people on the dole are stinking rich.

crusher000

Your economic or social background shouldn't dictate wheter you can protest or not, people are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't. If people are on social welfare and don't protest it's perceived they have it so good they don't need to protest or that they are lazy. If they do protest it is perceived that they should get a job. The greatest % of people that are affected by austerity are the people at the bottom of our economy. They feel the burden of taxes the most. Also if you are to look at them having iphones (which is a nonsense coming from our Tanaiste) they purchased them pre-austerity so owned them before extra taxes were introduced. Water charges is exactly this another tax.

folan

water charges are a utility bill. it will no longer be totally covered by the tax system.

crusher000

GarIT wrote: »

Clearly not. But you should be able to go and buy new luxuries. If you were worried about loosing your job you should have been saving accordingly for that rather than relying on the state to do that for you.

I don't see how people think they are entitled to anything, this luxuries have to be created, people have to work to make them, and everyone should have to work if they wish to receive them.

Saving accordingly ??????? Both of us in our house working and I can't save a cent, Christ what euthopia are you living in ?????

Idbatterim

Everyone deserves a decent quality of life where their physical/emotional/mental health isn't damaged by being forced to live in subsistence, or by having their spending dictated to them (and thus their freedom curtailed), to the point that they are not allowed to enjoy any luxuries in life.

the lifers and all of the associated costs, house, medical card, god knows what allowances is impacting on the quality of life of the people paying for it! What they deserve is a decent education system and let them take advantage of it and if not, tough luck...

Everyone deserves a decent quality of life where their physical/emotional/mental health isn't damaged by being forced to live in subsistence, or by having their spending dictated to them (and thus their freedom curtailed), to the point that they are not allowed to enjoy any luxuries in life.

even the people who earned very modest income, paying a fortune in tax, who borrowed 400-500k during the boom to get a house? Who get nothing in return for their contributions and are living pay check to pay check or have had to cut everything down to the bone?

GarIT

crusher000 wrote: »

Saving accordingly ??????? Both of us in our house working and I can't save a cent, Christ what euthopia are you living in ?????

If I can live on €250 a month I don't see why anyone else cant either. (Excluding rent, but we do have rent allowance so that's covered)

Saying that single people on the file are rice is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. Most unemployed people get €188 a week and out of that all bills and essentials have to be paid. Rent in this country is ridiculously high so you can end up with 50 or 60% if your weekly payment going on that. Then you have electricity which could be €10-€15 a week, food €30 a week and all other expenses. Most people don't have more than a few euro left over when everything is paid and dread any unexpected expenses.

GarIT

Deleted User wrote: »

Saying that single people on the file are rice is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. Most unemployed people get €188 a week and out of that all bills and essentials have to be paid. Rent in this country is ridiculously high so you can end up with 50 or 60% if your weekly payment going on that. Then you have electricity which could be €10-€15 a week, food €30 a week and all other expenses. Most people don't have more than a few euro left over when everything is paid and dread any unexpected expenses.

There are plenty of places for €50 or less per week. The same group of entitled people seem to think that house shares and houses not in Dublin don't exist.

conorhal

Such glib comentariat from people that expense the phone calls that they make from the back of their chaufeur driven Merc is nothing more than a PR own goal that only serves to underline how arrogant and out of touch this government is.

P_1

GarIT wrote: »

If I can live on €250 a month I don't see why anyone else cant either. (Excluding rent, but we do have rent allowance so that's covered)

Now you are aware that not everybody on social welfare gets rent allowance don't you? In fact I'd wager that a good few see their SW payments disappear on things like mortgages and whatnot.

Fair enough once the rent/mortgage is paid for then €250 a month to take care of the other bills and food is pretty good going but you are making quite a poor argument by suggesting that €250 a month is fine to live on once you discount those pesky things like rent or mortgage...

GarIT

crusher000 wrote: »

Your economic or social background shouldn't dictate wheter you can protest or not

Why shouldn't it? I'd say it should why is your argument better than mine? Any reasoning?

I actually think that people not currently paying PAYE shouldn't have a vote on how the country is run.

Idbatterim

Saying that single people on the file are rice is the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time. Most unemployed people get €188 a week and out of that all bills and essentials have to be paid. Rent in this country is ridiculously high so you can end up with 50 or 60% if your weekly payment going on that. Then you have electricity which could be €10-€15 a week, food €30 a week and all other expenses. Most people don't have more than a few euro left over when everything is paid and dread any unexpected expenses.

this is true of the uk and germany etc, so how come the rates here are so much higher? if anyone tries telling me that the cost of living on the essentials here is amywhere near twice that of either of the aforementioned countries, i.e. shopping in aldi and lidl, primark and utilities, dont even bother!

But its ridiculous in the first instance that what you pay in, isnt in some way linked to what you get out of the system, should you need it...

GarIT

GarIT wrote: »

There are plenty of places for €50 or less per week. The same group of entitled people seem to think that house shares and houses not in Dublin don't exist.

Single rooms in Dublin in house shares are going for a lot more than €50 a week. Moving outside of a major city isn't an option for many and it would be a little counter productive when you consider that most jobs are being created in cities.

GarIT

P_1 wrote: »

Now you are aware that not everybody on social welfare gets rent allowance don't you? In fact I'd wager that a good few see their SW payments disappear on things like mortgages and whatnot.

Fair enough once the rent/mortgage is paid for then €250 a month to take care of the other bills and food is pretty good going but you are making quite a poor argument by suggesting that €250 a month is fine to live on once you discount those pesky things like rent or mortgage...

Giving up any mortgage needs to be a requirement should be a requirement to getting any social welfare payments. If they're not getting rent allowance, that's wrong and they should be getting it, but a reasonable amount, not for a central house with a separate room for each child.

keith16

I have to say I am shocked at how many people are just accepting the water charges.

In principle, nothing wrong with paying for water - I have no objection whatsoever.

I strongly object, when a two-bit organisation such as Irish Water is thrown together, clearly have no idea what they are doing and bring along the high costs and cronyism that Enda promised to remove.

I would attend the protest if I could. I can well afford the charges too - and while many people will now conserve water (a very good thing), I guarantee you that Irish Water will do nothing to improve the infrastructure or quality of water in Ireland.

intellectual dosser

Joan Burton's comments seem to epitomize the Governments attitude of 'If the people appear to have money - lets take it'

the_syco

Laois6556 wrote: »

This country is split, the rich and the poor. The rich think they have it tough and look down on the poor as lazy scroungers. The rich don't realise how easy they have it, the poor are rising together. They wont be putting up with the crap for much longer.

Are they going to get the dole slashed by 50% so they have to pay less tax?

KomradeBishop

VinLieger wrote: »

Nice straw man.

Look the simple fact is there is deffinitely a sense of entitlement among a certain class of people on the dole. I'm not saying everyone on the dole suffers from this but there are people who do. Yes some people then use this to tar everyone on the dole with the same brush but it's no different to people who go around claiming that "business owners" and anyone on the higher tax rate is rolling in it and "rich" and should be taxed to the hilt to pay for everything as it's all their fault......

Nice straw man...

You are also attempting to use that straw-man/false-accusation-of-hypocrisy, to justify the dole-bashing generalizations, which is fallacious reasoning.

Barely There

crusher000 wrote: »

The greatest % of people that are affected by austerity are the people at the bottom of our economy. They feel the burden of taxes the most.

Perhaps you could post up some actual evidence to back up these claims.
It will be interesting to compare this against the data reported on by the Irish Independent in August.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/middle-ireland-has-borne-the-brunt-of-our-austerity-years-30478154.html

GarIT

Deleted User wrote: »

Single rooms in Dublin in house shares are going for a lot more than €50 a week. Moving outside of a major city isn't an option for many and it would be a little counter productive when you consider that most jobs are being created in cities.

If you find a job you can commute or then move back in. Dublin is one of the only cities in the world where the average commute time is less than 2 hours. Ireland is so small you could live in Galway and commute to work in Dublin in less time than the average London worker.

folan

GarIT wrote: »

Giving up any mortgage needs to be a requirement should be a requirement to getting any social welfare payments.

what? so if i lose my job, I should have to sell my house on to avail of social welfare until i get a new job?

Idbatterim

I pointed it out earlier and will do so again a couple on 100k, are paying E271 at the marginal rate of tax alone per week and getting nothing for it. That is about the average yearly charge that has been bandied about. So excuse the lack of compassion!

This country is split, the rich and the poor. The rich think they have it tough and look down on the poor as lazy scroungers. The rich don't realise how easy they have it, the poor are rising together. They wont be putting up with the crap for much longer.

Not even .1% that is one in a thousand of the Irish population could be defined as "rich".