Tánaiste Moany Burton: IW protesters 'seem to have extremely expensive phones'

ChillMhantain

GarIT wrote: »

If I can live on €250 a month I don't see why anyone else cant either. (Excluding rent, but we do have rent allowance so that's covered)

If you are living on €8/day for everything but rent you need to share your secret with everybody.

folan

GarIT wrote: »

Dublin is one of the only cities in the world where the average commute time is less than 2 hours.

source

_Kaiser_

GarIT wrote: »

]If I can live on €250 a month I don't see why anyone else cant either. (Excluding rent, but we do have rent allowance so that's covered)

That's a bit much now. Good for you that you can manage, but everyone's circumstances are different!

I was made redundant in late 2009 and was out of work for a year. Contrary to what some people think though, your bills (loans, credit cards, utilities etc) don't just disappear with your job and salary and everyone has to be paid SOMETHING every week (can't just say "ah well, I'm unemployed.. you can have it when I get another job!"). It's actually a very stressful existence as you try to give them all just enough to keep them off your back for another month.

Those who want to work (or who have been laid off through no fault of their own) should be supported as much as possible to get work (perhaps a sliding scale of payments as is done elsewhere). Those who haven't worked a day in their lives (officially anyway!) however are a very different case and need to be pushed/prodded to retrain or get work "or else"

In my case it took a year and was a job that was 2 steps back career wise and for less money AND it involved a 1000km/week commute @ €5/600 in diesel/tolls/wear and tear on the car and in the end I had to move back to Dublin as well which I didn't really want to do, but I did it as a way back into the workforce and thankfully it worked out in the longer term, but I would NEVER be so arrogant as to assume that everyone else has the same opportunities and costs that I did.

P_1

GarIT wrote: »

Giving up any mortgage needs to be a requirement should be a requirement to getting any social welfare payments. If they're not getting rent allowance, that's wrong and they should be getting it, but a reasonable amount, not for a central house with a separate room for each child.

And have you given any thought to the financial havok that would cause?

VinLieger

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Nice straw man...

You are also attempting to use that straw-man/false-accusation-of-hypocrisy, to justify the dole-bashing generalizations, which is fallacious reasoning.

Where did i justify it? i'm just saying it happens on both sides

GarIT

folan wrote: »

what? so if i lose my job, I should have to sell my house on to avail of social welfare until i get a new job?

No, you have a house, you can live off the cash from the sale. Owning a house isn't something people should be entitled to. Social welfare should be reserved for those with no assets.

KomradeBishop

GarIT wrote: »

Clearly not. But you should be able to go and buy new luxuries. If you were worried about loosing your job you should have been saving accordingly for that rather than relying on the state to do that for you.

I don't see how people think they are entitled to anything, this luxuries have to be created, people have to work to make them, and everyone should have to work if they wish to receive them.

There should possibly be a grace period, but say after 12 months of unemployment if you are still unemployed and not in education you shouldn't get any more than the essentials. I also support the idea's of scrapping the dole and the government guaranteeing everyone a job on €200 per week, if you want more you need to go and get yourself a better job.

Social welfare payments are also disproportionate, admittedly some families are struggling, but single people on the dole are stinking rich.

Everyone should feel entitled to a decent quality of life - which, if they are to remain physically/emotionally/mentally healthy, must include luxuries.

Denying anyone that, is nothing more than begrudgery. You would even make people work for subsistence wages, as if even then they hadn't 'earned' a decent quality of life.

VinLieger

Idbatterim wrote: »

I pointed it out earlier and will do so again a couple on 100k, are paying E271 at the marginal rate of tax alone per week and getting nothing for it. That is about the average yearly charge that has been bandied about. So excuse the lack of compassion!



Not even .1% that is one in a thousand of the Irish population could be defined as "rich".

Someone with that attitude will blindly assume anyone on the higher rate of tax is rich while being ignorant of the fact that it kicks in at 32,800, the lowest rate in Europe for the highest band

_Kaiser_

GarIT wrote: »

No, you have a house, you can live off the cash from the sale. Owning a house isn't something people should be entitled to. Social welfare should be reserved for those with no assets.

I agree on your point that no-one is automatically entitled to own a house.. but the flaw in your plan there is the assumption that the proceeds will cover what's left on the mortgage

Dublin aside, negative equity is still a big issue!

ChillMhantain

GarIT wrote: »

No, you have a house, you can live off the cash from the sale. Owning a house isn't something people should be entitled to. Social welfare should be reserved for those with no assets.

You are taking the piss now. I don't know anyone would come out with anything after the sale of their house, in fact they would probably still owe money.

KomradeBishop

Idbatterim wrote: »

the lifers and all of the associated costs, house, medical card, god knows what allowances is impacting on the quality of life of the people paying for it! What they deserve is a decent education system and let them take advantage of it and if not, tough luck...



even the people who earned very modest income, paying a fortune in tax, who borrowed 400-500k during the boom to get a house? Who get nothing in return for their contributions and are living pay check to pay check or have had to cut everything down to the bone?

Everyone. Everyone deserves a decent quality of life, no exceptions. They should all feel entitled to it. Your 'dole lifers' nonsense, is nothing other than a totally unbacked assumption: How many of the unemployed, exactly, are 'lifers', and how much are those lifers costing?

Lets see if you can answer that without massive generalizations.

VinLieger

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Everyone should feel entitled to a decent quality of life - which, if they are to remain physically/emotionally/mentally healthy, must include luxuries.

Denying anyone that, is nothing more than begrudgery. You would even make people work for subsistence wages, as if even then they hadn't 'earned' a decent quality of life.

Can you quantify a decent quality of life? What does this mean, should they be able to shop in M&S for the weekly groceries?

KomradeBishop

GarIT wrote: »

Why shouldn't it? I'd say it should why is your argument better than mine? Any reasoning?

I actually think that people not currently paying PAYE shouldn't have a vote on how the country is run.

Yes that's nice, remove voting privileges from people who are poor - feudalistic nonsense.

jimgoose

crusher000 wrote: »

...The greatest % of people that are affected by austerity are the people at the bottom of our economy. They feel the burden of taxes the most...

They do in their collective hole.

GarIT

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

That's a bit much now. Good for you that you can manage, but everyone's circumstances are different!

I was made redundant in late 2009 and was out of work for a year. Contrary to what some people think though, your bills (loans, credit cards, utilities etc) don't just disappear with your job and salary and everyone has to be paid SOMETHING every week (can't just say "ah well, I'm unemployed.. you can have it when I get another job!"). It's actually a very stressful existence as you try to give them all just enough to keep them off your back for another month.

In my case it took a year and was a job that was 2 steps back career wise and for less money AND it involved a 1000km/week commute @ €5/600 in diesel/tolls/wear and tear on the car.

Those who want to work (or who have been laid off through no fault of their own) should be supported as much as possible to get work (perhaps a sliding scale of payments as is done elsewhere). Those who haven't worked a day in their lives (officially anyway!) however are a very different case and need to be pushed/prodded to retrain or get work "or else"

In the end I had to move back to Dublin as well which I didn't really want to do, but I did it as a way back into the workforce and thankfully it worked out in the longer term, but I would NEVER be so arrogant as to assume that everyone else has the same opportunities and costs that I did.

Nobody else incurred your loans or credit card debts. You should have made sure you could pay them off before you got them. Even just borrowing money is bad economics and just wasting money. I've never owed a cent to anybody in my life and I'm better off for it, if my income drops I cut my spending.

Somebody was asking about the €8 per day. Tesco sells meat that has to be eaten that day for less than €1 per meal. I by peanut butter in holland and barret for €8 per kg. bananas are cheap, so is porridge. Onions and peppers are great for adding to dinner and are cheap. Rice can be bought in bulk and is quite cheap. Don't leave lights or the TV on, wear warm clothes instead of using the heating, if you aren't wearing a jacket before you turn the heating on your just doing it wrong. Sorted

In Lonesome Dove

GarIT wrote: »

If you're not earning why should you be given free stuff from anybody. Humanity dictates that we help them survive, but they shouldn't have access to the same rewards that 40 hours of work each week brings.

What kind of rewards should a 40 hour week bring?

How about a proper wage in line with minimum wage perhaps.

Many youngsters are working a full time week and aren't getting much rewards except for the 100 euro or 140 euro (depending on age) for the work that they do.

folan

GarIT wrote: »

No, you have a house, you can live off the cash from the sale. Owning a house isn't something people should be entitled to. Social welfare should be reserved for those with no assets.

have i a mortgage or own the house?

I get it, you are taking the piss.

In Lonesome Dove

In Lonesome Dove wrote: »

This is such a brilliant reply. Thank you.

There is a lot of ignorant assumptions online that unemployed people are the source of the country's woes. That they are all lazy scum who never worked a day in their life's and never intend to. The people with these assumptions are misdirecting their anger at the wrong people. Anger brought about due to work like working more for less and financial stress perhaps.

I remember a piece some months back about the long term unemployed as in unemployed since the boom and it's coming into the 40,000's. But even at that, that's just a figure. How much of those were unemployed for a brief period to be replaced other people briefly unemployed. Perhaps college students coming out fron college and unable to get work straight away.

Back on topic, There's about 450,000 people unemployed. A jump of around 410,000. These 400,000 would have lost work through the crash. The credit in the banks dried up which would have had an impact on the construction sector. Lending from the banks were less which would have had an impact on say for example some small businesses relying on bank credit from time to time. Unable to get credit they would have closed doors. We were a country who became too expensive and a lot of manufacturing companies closed to move to cheaper countries letting go of their workforce. These would have had an impact on the services and hospitality sector. With many countries outside of Ireland also in a downturn, that would have had an impact on the tourism sector. Along with these people losing jobs, we having youngsters coming out from college and courses unable to get work.

You are a bit out...
There's 375k on the live register.
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/lr/liveregisterseptember2014/#.VDe6mss1jqA
We're below the EU average again I think.

The Muppet

GarIT wrote: »

No, you have a house, you can live off the cash from the sale. Owning a house isn't something people should be entitled to. Social welfare should be reserved for those with no assets.

There's a slight flaw in your thinking , If you have a mortgage you really don't own a House do you? Selling it would (a) leave you with nowhere to live and (b) would be unlikely to raise enough to pay of the remainder of the mortgage never mind funding living expenses . Apart from that its a good idea.

_Kaiser_

GarIT wrote: »

Nobody else incurred your loans or credit card debts. You should have made sure you could pay them off before you got them. Even just borrowing money is bad economics and just wasting money. I've never owed a cent to anybody in my life and I'm better off for it, if my income drops I cut my spending.

I know this is AH but still - :rolleyes:

For the record though, I too got the calls every fortnight offering me "free" money for anything I wanted and pre-approval for nearly half a million on a mortgage.. but I refused because I didn't need it and limited myself to a small car loan so I could cut down on a 3 hour bus/train commute (in Dublin no less!)

While I was working I was comfortably making all those payments but see, when your income unexpectedly drops to a fraction of what it was things change, and in fact the FIRST call I made the next day was to the bank to apprise them of the situation (to restructure, not write-off I might add)

Good for you that you can live debt-free and are happy doing it but there's nothing wrong with debt as long as it's managed responsibly and as long as you remember that the responsibility lies with you to repay it.. even if it takes longer.

In the end any debts I owe will be repaid so you can take your smug condescending nonsense elsewhere please

KomradeBishop

VinLieger wrote: »

Can you quantify a decent quality of life? What does this mean, should they be able to shop in M&S for the weekly groceries?

You quantify a decent quality of life, after-the-fact based on its effects on peoples personal wellbeing, not prior-to-the-fact based on whether they shop in M&S.

jimgoose

GarIT wrote: »

Nobody else incurred your loans or credit card debts. You should have made sure you could pay them off before you got them. Even just borrowing money is bad economics and just wasting money. I've never owed a cent to anybody in my life and I'm better off for it, if my income drops I cut my spending...

Credit is a fundamental part of the modern world, and there is nothing wrong with it once the punter gets it into his/her cliggín that it is simply treating money as the commodity that it is. As far as I'm concerned operating completely without debt your whole life is only practical if your time is worth nearly nothing.

AlekSmart

eviltimeban wrote: »

People talk about "sneering" politicians... how do you know they are sneering? I'm sure JB & Co aren't exactly happy that they have to do this, watching their rating plummet. They'd like nothing more than to do a "giveaway" budget like McCreevey used to do to buy some votes and a couple more years in power, but there's a country to run and debt to be paid, so... not an option.

I've never particularly liked Burton but she's got a point... but... to all those people "protesting" or sending back their letters to Irish Water... just stop, because it isn't going to change anything. You'll only end up paying more. Lots more. If someone is going to struggle to pay the charge, the best thing to do is to help them complete their form properly, so they get their proper allowance. Not force them into a situation where they end up owing a load of money.

The so called "real" Socialists ("cup of strong tea socialists"?) are just using this as another bandwagon to jump on - another way to push against sensible governing and reality. After a while they'll realise it didn't work and they'll move on to the next thing, but what about the people who bought into their propaganda and now face large bills or even court appearances?

Same thing happened with the bin charges. Now we have a free market essentially, with more than one waste disposal company to choose from. I'm happy with my waste collection, I recycle more and know what I am paying each month.

Good ,sound commonsense Post eviltimeban,which I'd imagine will be shouted down in short order.

Other European countries have had their "Anarchism" opportunities long before us,with a fair oul sprinkling still available in the newer EU accession States.

The main difference is in how States handle this sort of stuff,and Irelands handling of it,so far,has been .....delicate....

As many posters point out,the majority of Water Meter installations have,so far proceded apace,with some householders even getting a wee bit extra,in the sense of a repaired footpath or bit of a slope to the driveway...;)

As it currently stands,Irish Water,can legally implement a Billing Mechanism without sight or sound of a Meter....

Fast-forward to mid 2105,and the appearance of "Estimated" billing,non payment,and the inevitable due process that comes with it,and there is every chance that Liveline will be overwhelemed with callers askin "Joe,Wat's keepin Irish Water,I'm waitin 6 months now for a meter...."

The legal and administrative groundwork,has been done long ago,when only the few saddo's who watch Dáil TV were up to speed on what the divil's were at.....:D

listermint

AlekSmart wrote: »

Good ,sound commonsense Post eviltimeban,which I'd imagine will be shouted down in short order.

Other European countries have had their "Anarchism" opportunities long before us,with a fair oul sprinkling still available in the newer EU accession States.

The main difference is in how States handle this sort of stuff,and Irelands handling of it,so far,has been .....delicate....

As many posters point out,the majority of Water Meter installations have,so far proceded apace,with some householders even getting a wee bit extra,in the sense of a repaired footpath or bit of a slope to the driveway...;)

As it currently stands,Irish Water,can legally implement a Billing Mechanism without sight or sound of a Meter....

Fast-forward to mid 2105,and the appearance of "Estimated" billing,non payment,and the inevitable due process that comes with it,and there is every chance that Liveline will be overwhelemed with callers askin "Joe,Wat's keepin Irish Water,I'm waitin 6 months now for a meter...."

The legal and administrative groundwork,has been done long ago,when only the few saddo's who watch Dáil TV were up to speed on what the divil's were at.....:D

Fast forward to 2020, when Irish Water is up for Sale and Alex not so smart has egg on his face. And we go down the failed path the UK has already well worn with private entities in charge of public commodities.


It is literally a real head scratcher how someone can think privatising our water is making ireland a more socially acceptable society.

VinLieger

KomradeBishop wrote: »

You quantify a decent quality of life, after-the-fact based on its effects on peoples personal wellbeing, not prior-to-the-fact based on whether they shop in M&S.

That's very subjective, some people can survive on less and have a better well being than other's so applying that to a fixed payment like social welfare cannot possibly work

KomradeBishop

VinLieger wrote: »

That's very subjective, some people can survive on less and have a better well being than other's so applying that to a fixed payment like social welfare cannot possibly work

It works easily, by paying people people more until a high enough percentage of them, meet quality of living standards.

crusher000

GarIT wrote: »

If I can live on €250 a month I don't see why anyone else cant either. (Excluding rent, but we do have rent allowance so that's covered)

Well if my mortgage was paid for me I'd live on less as well but it's not. My mortage has gone down but I wasn't paying property tax when I bought my house, I wasn't paying USC when I bought my house, they're wasn't water charges when I bought my house. I work in the private sector and my wages haven't gone up. Yes I've made sacrifices and I am okay with that but the finacial strains we are now facing are not of our own doing and outside our control. So how can I plan for the future if the rates and taxes that I don't know about are yet to come. Tell my child she can't have dinner 3 nights a week ?

crusher000

GarIT wrote: »

Why shouldn't it? I'd say it should why is your argument better than mine? Any reasoning?

I actually think that people not currently paying PAYE shouldn't have a vote on how the country is run.

So exclude people with dis-abilities as well and pensioners ?????? Thank god all your in charge of is your keyboard.

crusher000

Barely There wrote: »

Perhaps you could post up some actual evidence to back up these claims.
It will be interesting to compare this against the data reported on by the Irish Independent in August.

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/middle-ireland-has-borne-the-brunt-of-our-austerity-years-30478154.html

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0410/316620-thousands-living-in-poverty-according-to-report/

crusher000

crusher000 wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0410/316620-thousands-living-in-poverty-according-to-report/

http://www.thejournal.ie/inequality-austerity-ireland-1079996-Sep2013/

The report said that the poorest are hit hardest by the recession, with a “shocking array of welfare cuts and tax increases” being introduced since 2008 “that have driven more and more people into debt and poverty”.
Unemployment has also risen, and the report stated that like many other European countries, “Ireland is stricken with the twin problems of youth unemployment and chronic long-term unemployment”.
This, it said, has meant that “many of Ireland’s young adults are planning to emigrate”.
Inequality
Oxfam said in its report that income inequality in Ireland is four times the OECD average, and so the country has undertaken “an enormous effort to redistribute incomes through taxes and social transfer”

Teyla Emmagan

The crazy is very strong on this thread.

Barely There

I always find it highly amusing the people who decry the possible sale if IW to the private sector are invariable the ones complaining loudest about the inefficient way in which the current quago has been set up by the Government.

listermint

Barely There wrote: »

I always find it highly amusing the people who decry the possible sale if IW to the private sector are invariable the ones complaining loudest about the inefficient way in which the current quago has been set up by the Government.

Are people not entitled to complain about both ??



I dont understand ?

Can we not have an efficient setup of an Irish Water Mangement forum without all the lackys that go with it? without selling it into the private sector.

Or is that an unrealistic aspiration. Im confused by you're amusement.

KomradeBishop

Barely There wrote: »

I always find it highly amusing the people who decry the possible sale if IW to the private sector are invariable the ones complaining loudest about the inefficient way in which the current quago has been set up by the Government.

While you're back, making unfounded assumptions/generalizations again - care to name the communities, you were disparaging here:

KomradeBishop wrote: »

Barely There wrote: »

No, I don't and am grateful for it.

From what I can see the kind of 'communities' that the protests are taking place in correspond pretty well with the areas where long-term unemployment and social welfare lifestyle are deeply engrained.

Name those communities. This is one I know you're going to try and dodge, as if you try naming them, it will expose your massive ignorance here.

In Lonesome Dove

Deleted User wrote: »

You are a bit out...
There's 375k on the live register.
http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/lr/liveregisterseptember2014/#.VDe6mss1jqA
We're below the EU average again I think.

About 3 or 4 years ago, the figure was about 450,000. So I got it wrong and the figure is 375,000 now. My bad. You do realise though that this figure of 375,000 is completely fudged?

People on the job seekers assistance going back to college/taking up training courses - they would be removed from the job seekers numbers even tough they would still get a weekly payment equivalent to their sw dole payment and once course is over they move back over to the unemployment assistance. Same thing for jobsbridge, tus, gateway schemes.

In Lonesome Dove

In Lonesome Dove wrote: »

About 3 or 4 years ago, the figure was about 450,000. So I got it wrong and the figure is 375,000 now. My bad. You do realise though that this figure of 375,000 is completely fudged?

People on the job seekers assistance going back to college/taking up training courses - they would be removed from the job seekers numbers even tough they would still get a weekly payment equivalent. Same thing for jobsbridge, tus, gateway schemes.

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/tax-revenue-running-548m-ahead-of-target-1.1888268
These figures would prove that there ARE more in taxable employment. The numbers on JobBridge is capped at I think 3,000 and the number going back to college isn't great, as they get no extra money and it actually costs them to do so.

padd b1975

KomradeBishop wrote: »

It works easily, by paying people people more until a high enough percentage of them, meet quality of living standards.

.....and then sit back and watch the rate of inflation sky rocket!

jimgoose

Barely There wrote: »

I always find it highly amusing the people who decry the possible sale if IW to the private sector are invariable the ones complaining loudest about the inefficient way in which the current quago has been set up by the Government.

Fair moxy to you. It amuses me no end that the Government trots out all sorts of lies to obscure the spending of 180-odd million of your Earth Euro to get IW off the state balance-sheet, obviously with a view to selling it and hence leaving us open to getting rode side-saddle by various unknown entities after shareholder profits and with about as much interest in service provision as the half-dozen or so similar outfits in the UK who've been at that very thing for years, but that wasn't mentioned even once (I counted) in the entirety of the water charges deliberations here. Oh well!!

listermint

listermint wrote: »

Fast forward to 2020, when Irish Water is up for Sale and Alex not so smart has egg on his face. And we go down the failed path the UK has already well worn with private entities in charge of public commodities.


It is literally a real head scratcher how someone can think privatising our water is making ireland a more socially acceptable society.

jimgoose wrote: »

Fair moxy to you. It amuses me no end that the Government trots out all sorts of lies to obscure the spending of 180-odd million of your Earth Euro to get IW off the state balance-sheet, obviously with a view to selling it and hence leaving us open to getting rode side-saddle by various unknown entities after shareholder profits and with about as much interest in service provision as the half-dozen or so similar outfits in the UK who've been at that very thing for years, but that wasn't mentioned even once (I counted) in the entirety of the water charges deliberations here. Oh well!!

jimgoose

listermint wrote: »

Oops. 'Scuse me, squire!

In Lonesome Dove

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/tax-revenue-running-548m-ahead-of-target-1.1888268
These figures would prove that there ARE more in taxable employment. The numbers on JobBridge is capped at I think 3,000 and the number going back to college isn't great, as they get no extra money and it actually costs them to do so.

There's still a huge number of people who lost work with the downturn. That's here nor there really. I brought the unemployment figure up in an earlier post because there's so many people with an ignorant perception of the unemployed eg lazy scum, drink and smoke all day, hump and get pregnant to use their babies as a way to get a free house, never worked before in their lifes. This is just not true. The majority of people unemployed lost work due to the crash.

Barely There

In Lonesome Dove wrote: »

The majority of people unemployed lost work due to the crash.

Yes, and the majority of people unemployed are not out protesting the installation of watermeters.

However, it is also possibly that the majority of people protesting the installation of water meters are unemployed.

It's perfectly possible for both statements to be true - perhaps a Venn diagram would help people understand?

You can call these protestors a bunch of unemployed, self-entitled, drain on the States, without necessarily holding the view that everyone who is unemployed is a self-entitled, drain on the State.

But please, don't let this stop the hysteria and faux-outrage.

KomradeBishop

padd b1975 wrote: »

.....and then sit back and watch the rate of inflation sky rocket!

Yes, it's impossible for everyone in society to have a decent quality of life, because inflation or something...:rolleyes:

Chips Lovell

http://www.breakingnews.ie/media/images/z/zzzjoanburtonasmaryantoinetteCREDITAreamanProductions_large.jpg

renegademaster

:pac:

http://postimg.org/image/5q9drbh8z/

Idbatterim

Europes most screwed taxpayer from the lowish to middle and high paid, eventually lose patience with europes most generous welfare system, what a surprise!

renegademaster

water - check
sandwiches - check
banner - check
fully charged up nokia 106 - check

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

renegademaster

renegademaster wrote: »

water - check
sandwiches - check
banner - check
fully charged up nokia 106 - check

:pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac::pac:

Have you topped up your credit or paid your bill?

Gatling

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Have you topped up your credit or paid your bill?

Don't forget the dodgy tracksuit and the knock off sunglasses

Idbatterim

Geuze - Workers must get better unemployment payments, better pensions, and cheaper childcare than non-workers.

response by Murphaph

Lunacy indeed. Here in Berlin we get a voucher from the city for our crèche fees. We currently need a 7 - 9 hour care per day voucher as we both work full time. We pay 169 a month and the voucher pays the other 800 or so of the real cost of the childcare.

Non working parents receive a max 4 hour a day voucher as the city rightfully recognises that they can look after their kids themselves most of the time.

Here is how a good system work, of course in Ireland we like to reward the work shy and hit the workers. The difference is it simply wouldnt be tolerated to this extent anywhere else. Fairness here is based on how many votes you can buy, thats it!