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Indonesian cave paintings may be oldest ever
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09-10-2014 5:46pm#1
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Something happened in the 60 - 40 Kya period. Larger populations? Better food gathering tech that allowed some members of the group to take flights of fancy and work on art? Contact between different humans, so the need to group identify became so strong it was selected for and "art" happened? Who knows.
Aliens
the draw to find a new species of human to call your own is still very strong.
A new species of anything, really... this often explains why paleontologists keep naming new dinos from really measly remains, splitting some species into many new ones, etc. Zoologists, too, naming new species from minimal DNA differences (although when it comes to living species there's also the conservation angle involved...)Look at the Denisovans. All that is known of them is a tiny finger bone and a tooth.
Tiny? Correct me if I'm wrong but, wasn´t the tooth described as "as big as a bear's", and the finger bone claimed to come from a creature even more robust than a Neanderthal?0 -
Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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Aliens:D
YepA new species of anything, really... this often explains why paleontologists keep naming new dinos from really measly remains, splitting some species into many new ones, etc. Zoologists, too, naming new species from minimal DNA differences (although when it comes to living species there's also the conservation angle involved...)
IIRC they're within the upper size limit of Neandertals. The problem is with just one bone and a tooth you can tell jack about the appearance in a general population(DNA was the real winner here). With Neandertals we have about the most set of bones of any archaic human and even there there are gaps. Female ones for a start are small in number and the males vary quite a bit in morphology and geography and vary more than a bit over time. Within the range of their morphology, some have chins, some are more compact in the face, others are long in the face, some are short, some are quite tall(one Iranian dude is 5'10-11). If all we had was him we'd reckon Neandertals were taller than average modern humans.Tiny? Correct me if I'm wrong but, wasn´t the tooth described as "as big as a bear's", and the finger bone claimed to come from a creature even more robust than a Neanderthal?Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59094
I'd take the same view R. yes we have some rare examples(so far found) of "art" and abstract thought before the largely European explosion of it. Some is us, some may be other folks like Neandertals. Maybe, why it took off in such a big way in Europe is because of competition? We arrive in Europe and these other folks are already in the place. Other folks who may have had their own abstract stuff going on albeit on a low level(evidence of pigments and pendants is pretty good, use of avian feathers might be a stretch). So this kicks off an arms race of art. There's some mixing from both cultures and both step up to the plate and really ramp it up. We are the ones who win and take it well beyond what the competition requires and hence the cave paintings and sculpture etc.
One mad notion I've had is that maybe, just maybe previous humans and our early selves abstracted "art" in decoration of our bodies. Maybe initially as a practical camouflage thing for hunting that transmogrified into an outward group allegiance thang? Which added things like pendants and necklaces into the mix. Also addition of such things into grave goods? So we would have had our own personal, skin and flesh based "art" and so would have the neandertal dudes. In Europe both groups encountered one another and then the arms/art race kicked off. One trying to outdo the other. Maybe, our innovation was to externalise the "skin" onto the "skin" of the earth itself. We began to tattoo the stones of caves as well as ourselves? If nothing else it would heavily imply ownership of a territory. Much more than body paint(or tattoos) on people. People and their body adornments die and fade with them, but if you tattoo the earth itself you make a much more lasting claim and impression on the territory you say is yours.
Put it this way, I'm sure there are folks reading this with some fantastic examples of body art in tattoos and piercings and the like, yet when they pass away as all must, that art and personal expression will pass with them and leave zero record in history. Look at Otzi tbe Iceman. never mind all the other cool stuff, one thing that grabbed what passes for my attention was his tattoos. Before he was found our knowledge of bronze age body mods were pretty much zilch. Hey, maybe we should ask the folks from the Body mod forum to dig through the artifacts that appear to make no sense. We may find us and Neandertals had lip and ear piercings to beat the band.
TL;DR? maybe we were different because we externalised an existing notion of art for the self and projected it onto the earth, created another self and maybe even religion and that led to further projection and the progress of the human philosophical mind all the way to Plato.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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