Ireland becomes fourth country in world to celebrate Black History Month

RobYourBuilder

bb1234567 wrote: »

Should we have a straight pride march aswell and a mens rights parade

Sure why not? Everyone else seems to be celebrated. Surely the group that actually created western society should have one too.

Nodin

bb1234567 wrote: »

huh i was being sarcastic
because the personw as asking why we dont have white history month

Soz. Hard to tell these threads.

Nodin

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Sure why not? Everyone else seems to be celebrated. Surely the group that actually created western society should have one too.

What group? Straight men? No gays ever do anything significant at all? women?

RobYourBuilder

Nodin wrote: »

What group? Straight men? No gays ever do anything significant at all? women?

Straight white men.

The King of Moo

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Straight white men.

...created Western Civilization? All by ourselves??

Go look up the Ancient Greeks. You at least may want to qualify the "straight" part of your statement.

Nodin

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Straight white men.

Those historically considered "white" eh?
So that would be the Brits, Germans, Dutch, , maybe French and the scandanavians. Not us, the Spanish, Italians or Portugese. No slavs either so that's the Poles, Russians and the rest gone. No Jews either. Yez won't need a big room anyway.

Still not telling me why ye want to know my age?

crannglas

Completely stupid. I can understand USA doing it and possibly UK and Dutch as they murdered enslaved and kidnapped those people from native lands. They built and gave to the sports of the country and past music legends and one political icon( martin Luther) The ones of today laughable. Only ones here who contributed to Ireland wouldn't exactly call history or historic. I don't believe has place in Ireland. Laughable how won't actually support Irish history and here celebrating black history. A bit racist to be honest. Don't believe the people who are black Irish native even relate to or see themselves as anything but Irish.

crockholm

Nodin wrote: »

Those historically considered "white" eh?
So that would be the Brits, Germans, Dutch, , maybe French and the scandanavians. Not us, the Spanish, Italians or Portugese. No slavs either so that's the Poles, Russians and the rest gone. No Jews either. Yez won't need a big room anyway.

Still not telling me why ye want to know my age?

Noddy, you're 45 congrats-welcome to your midlife crisis.

Not true at all,as to your previous Point as to whom is White- when exactly was the meeting held that decided who was White and who wasn't? or are you just bluffing again?

crannglas

Nodin wrote: »

Those historically considered "white" eh?
So that would be the Brits, Germans, Dutch, , maybe French and the scandanavians. Not us, the Spanish, Italians or Portugese. No slavs either so that's the Poles, Russians and the rest gone. No Jews either. Yez won't need a big room anyway.

Still not telling me why ye want to know my age?

Should be italians ,French,English decent, Spanish, Vikings,Celtic history celebrations. And Jews as they have been here decades. The fact they are white has nothing to do with it.

RobYourBuilder

The King of Moo wrote: »

...created Western Civilization? All by ourselves??

Go look up the Ancient Greeks. You at least may want to qualify the "straight" part of your statement.

Some of them were gay. We must celebrate that and ignore the vast majority that were not.

crannglas

P.s title misleading. Said Ireland celebrating. Not black people doing it themselves. In that case have fun. All should be allowed to express their proudness of skin colour and nationality religion sexuality( Barr pedos) and their historic figures without discrimination. I was tired so didn't read link.

The King of Moo

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Some of them were gay. We must celebrate that and ignore the vast majority that were not.

This might be relevant if anyone had ever seriously made a statement like that.

RobYourBuilder

Nodin wrote: »

Those historically considered "white" eh?

Are you an American? A very yank turn of phrase, that. If one is of European heritage, then one is white. Simple as.

crockholm

The weird thing about this for me would be the Word "Celebrating". That seems to be taking the positive aspects of African Culture whilst ignoring the negatives. Surely history can't be just the bits we pick and choose to re-inforce our bias.History is History. Warts and all.

Nodin

crockholm wrote: »

Noddy, you're 45 congrats-welcome to your midlife crisis.

Not true at all,as to your previous Point as to whom is White- when exactly was the meeting held that decided who was White and who wasn't? or are you just bluffing again?

I don't bluff. "white" has traditionally meant "anglo saxon". Though the definition is broad now, it was originally quite narrow. Even in the mid 20th century, a place like Apartheid south Africa demanded that Portugese nationals apply for a special visa when visiting the country, as they were not considered in the fold.

A few examples
http://professorwhatif.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/what-if-youre-not-quite-white/

http://www.historymuseumeot.com/mfahs/htm/part8_0026.htm

http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/when-italians-were-blacks-the-dark-skinned-sicilians/

What the Slavs did to get chucked off the whitey list I've no idea.

Nodin

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Are you an American? A very yank turn of phrase, that. If one is of European heritage, then one is white. Simple as.

O, so you're disregarding historical definitions and coming up with your own. That's great.

You have my age now, what was the great oul question you were going to throw at me?

crockholm

Nodin wrote: »

I don't bluff. "white" has traditionally meant "anglo saxon". Though the definition is broad now, it was originally quite narrow. Even in the mid 20th century, a place like Apartheid south Africa demanded that Portugese nationals apply for a special visa when visiting the country, as they were not considered in the fold.

A few examples
http://professorwhatif.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/what-if-youre-not-quite-white/

http://www.historymuseumeot.com/mfahs/htm/part8_0026.htm

http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/sesostris-the-great-the-egyptian-hercules/when-italians-were-blacks-the-dark-skinned-sicilians/

What the Slavs did to get chucked off the whitey list I've no idea.

So when Shakespeare was using Italians in his plays ,the emphasis was on that these people are entirely different to us? We are White and they aren't? .

With your reference Italians,Northern and Southern Italians were differenciated,exactly as they are today.

The concept that you use for what is "White" and what is not comes from a fleeting moment in European history held by some Aristocratic English people-Do you base all your opinions on what the English Aristocracy Believe?

Nodin

crockholm wrote: »

So when Shakespeare was using Italians in his plays ,the emphasis was on that these people are entirely different to us? We are White and they aren't? .

With your reference Italians,Northern and Southern Italians were differenciated,exactly as they are today.

The concept that you use for what is "White" and what is not comes from a fleeting moment in European history held by some Aristocratic English people-Do you base all your opinions on what the English Aristocracy Believe?

Bit odd you say that, given that the examples above relate mainly to the US.....the belief re Slavs was widely held in Western Europe, as was the feeling towards Jews.

Annasopra

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

It will eventually be forced on my young lad in school.

The horror! Your child might learn about diversity.

Demonique

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

I've no qualms answering you. It would be sweet if you answered me. How old are you?

What relevance does Nodin's age have?

Packrat

Demonique wrote: »

What relevance does Nodin's age have?

Maybe because he posts like a 12-14 year old who's watched too many American Lawyer movies....

Maybe not though, but that would be my interpretation of the question.

jank

Packrat wrote: »

Maybe because he posts like a 12-14 year old who's watched too many American Lawyer movies....

Maybe not though, but that would be my interpretation of the question.

Maybe because he derails threads on purpose with his one line contratian posts, time and time again.

bb1234567

Nodin wrote: »

Those historically considered "white" eh?
So that would be the Brits, Germans, Dutch, , maybe French and the scandanavians. Not us, the Spanish, Italians or Portugese. No slavs either so that's the Poles, Russians and the rest gone. No Jews either. Yez won't need a big room anyway.

Still not telling me why ye want to know my age?

Since when are slavs,jews ,italian and spanish people not white

twinytwo

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Is this not a little racist?

Imagine the uproar if there was a White history month.

Why do people want equality and then celebrate differences?

Do you not know at this stage that only whites can be racist?

Frank Lee Midere

bb1234567 wrote: »

Since when are slavs,jews ,italian and spanish people not white

Historically. Although the term Aryan was often used for White. In the UK and the US white meant Anglo Saxon.

You might want to research WWII and the Nazis.

As for Southern Europeans some Northern Europeans didn't see them as white.

It's not related to skin colour. Hitler saw Slavs as not white and Greeks and Spanish as white.

Nodin

bb1234567 wrote: »

Since when are slavs,jews ,italian and spanish people not white

Historically they were not considered such. Pre WW1 and WW2 a good degree of right wing thinking said that "civilisation" would be overrun by Slavs and Jews, particularily in France and Germany.

Fratton Fred

crannglas wrote: »

Completely stupid. I can understand USA doing it and possibly UK and Dutch as they murdered enslaved and kidnapped those people from native lands. They built and gave to the sports of the country and past music legends and one political icon( martin Luther) The ones of today laughable. Only ones here who contributed to Ireland wouldn't exactly call history or historic. I don't believe has place in Ireland. Laughable how won't actually support Irish history and here celebrating black history. A bit racist to be honest. Don't believe the people who are black Irish native even relate to or see themselves as anything but Irish.

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/irish-slave-traders-joe-oshea-murder-mutiny-mayhem-646357-Oct2012/

RDM_83 again

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Historically. Although the term Aryan was often used for White. In the UK and the US white meant Anglo Saxon.

You might want to research WWII and the Nazis.

As for Southern Europeans some Northern Europeans didn't see them as white.

It's not related to skin colour. Hitler saw Slavs as not white and Greeks and Spanish as white.

I am a bit confused by this, AFAIK slavs were always considered 'white' the emphasis was on Aryanism or Celtic/Nordic/Saxon origins not skin color as such, why do you think the Nazi's and the other early 20th century Anthropologists that held racialist views spent so much time and effort doing things like phrenology and (horribly horribly biased) intelligence testing?

This is my problem with the naming of events like this in an Irish context, in the USA it makes sense Black will generally = African American, in an Irish context your applying a reductionist ideology where skin color seems to be the emphasis, where do Australian Aboriginals fit into this?

Its fair enough for a set of private organizations to name their event whatever they like but I just don't get why they didn't use African History Month I mean there already is African Culture Day so there clearly isn't an issue using the term?

crannglas

Fratton Fred wrote: »

http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/irish-slave-traders-joe-oshea-murder-mutiny-mayhem-646357-Oct2012/

Eh that is people not a country of people. We didn't have slaves in Ireland. So the link is without context and my post stands. Thanks for link though interesting reading.

Frank Lee Midere

crannglas wrote: »

Eh that is people not a country of people. We didn't have slaves in Ireland. So the link is without context and my post stands. Thanks for link though interesting reading.

You'll find that black people had slaves too of course. A few migrants of Irish descent in a different country engaging in trade is not make something systematic.

Frank Lee Midere

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I am a bit confused by this, AFAIK slavs were always considered 'white' the emphasis was on Aryanism or Celtic/Nordic/Saxon origins not skin color as such, why do you think the Nazi's and the other early 20th century Anthropologists that held racialist views spent so much time and effort doing things like phrenology and (horribly horribly biased) intelligence testing?

This is my problem with the naming of events like this in an Irish context, in the USA it makes sense Black will generally = African American, in an Irish context your applying a reductionist ideology where skin color seems to be the emphasis, where do Australian Aboriginals fit into this?

Its fair enough for a set of private organizations to name their event whatever they like but I just don't get why they didn't use African History Month I mean there already is African Culture Day so there clearly isn't an issue using the term?

Well actually they Aryanists used white as a shortcut for Aryan. Even left wingers thought that.

I agree about us aping the US here despite having a totally different history. Private organisations are ok, black Anerican history is American history.

Nodin

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I am a bit confused by this, AFAIK slavs were always considered 'white' the emphasis was on Aryanism or Celtic/Nordic/Saxon origins not skin color as such,..........

Nope. For some reason (and I don't know what it is exactly) Slavs were considered non-white. I think it may be to do with the notion that they were too polluted by "Asiatic blood" but am unsure.

Fratton Fred

crannglas wrote: »

Eh that is people not a country of people. We didn't have slaves in Ireland. So the link is without context and my post stands. Thanks for link though interesting reading.

Dublin has one of the largest slave trafing markets in Europe, pre the African slave trade though.

Just because Ireland as an independent country didn't exist pre 1922 doesn't mean Ireland was any less part of the European/africa/Caribbean slave triangle than any other European country.

RDM_83 again

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Well actually they Aryanists used white as a shortcut for Aryan. Even left wingers thought that.

I just haven't really came across "white" being used in a context to exclude the Eastern European peoples, what I have seen is 'white' being used when comparing European peoples to Asiatic and African ethnic groups, when its excluding the Slavs etc it seems to be Aryan thats used, I'm not a historian though.

Nodin wrote: »

Nope. For some reason (and I don't know what it is exactly) Slavs were considered non-white. I think it may be to do with the notion that they were too polluted by "Asiatic blood" but am unsure.

Yeah I think thats the reason, according to wiki anyway it was originally a Swedish idea to justify stuff against their Eastern neighbors.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Dublin has one of the largest slave trafing markets in Europe, pre the African slave trade though.

Just because Ireland as an independent country didn't exist pre 1922 doesn't mean Ireland was any less part of the European/africa/Caribbean slave triangle than any other European country.

Yes there was Irish involvement in the Slave trade but looking at it, Ireland under the Crown was a periphery player in the Triangle trade, Bristol and the other British ports were the engines of that mechanism.

Frank Lee Midere

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Dublin has one of the largest slave trafing markets in Europe, pre the African slave trade though.

Just because Ireland as an independent country didn't exist pre 1922 doesn't mean Ireland was any less part of the European/africa/Caribbean slave triangle than any other European country.

You mean the Viking trade in Irish slaves?

Fratton Fred

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

You meaning the Viking trade in Irish slaves?

Bristol first started as a slave port with Norman slavers selling English slaves in to Ireland.

Frank Lee Midere

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Bristol first started as a slave port with Norman slavers selling English slaves in to Ireland.

You've moved the goalposts on Dublin being a centre of Irish slaveholders when I pointed out that it was then Viking run and enslaved Irish people and others.

The Normans didn't slave, preferring serfs or peasants. So you are provably talking about the dark ages and mean Norse not Norman.

So I looked up bristol's history on wiki and I find it was selling to Vikings

Brycgstow was a major centre for the Anglo-Saxon slave trade. Men, women and children captured in Wales or northern England were traded through Bristol to Dublin as slaves. From there the Viking rulers of Dublin would sell them on throughout the known world

That's a trade by Anglo Saxons of Anglo Saxons to Vikings. Vikings also traded Irish slaves from the interior and shipped em to Iceland and other places.

Prior to st patrick there were Irish raids on west Britain. At the time all ethnic groups were involved in some low level slavery. St patrick preached against slavery and it looks like it declined until the Vikings came along.

The Vikings were major slave holders and traders.

Pumpkinseeds

bb1234567 wrote: »

Should we have a straight pride march aswell and a mens rights parade

Maybe we should just stop labelling people.

Fratton Fred

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

You've moved the goalposts on Dublin being a centre of Irish slaveholders when I pointed out that it was then Viking run and enslaved Irish people and others.

The Normans didn't slave, preferring serfs or peasants. So you are provably talking about the dark ages and mean Norse not Norman.

So I looked up bristol's history on wiki and I find it was selling to Vikings

Brycgstow was a major centre for the Anglo-Saxon slave trade. Men, women and children captured in Wales or northern England were traded through Bristol to Dublin as slaves. From there the Viking rulers of Dublin would sell them on throughout the known world

That's a trade by Anglo Saxons of Anglo Saxons to Vikings. Vikings also traded Irish slaves from the interior and shipped em to Iceland and other places.

Prior to st patrick there were Irish raids on west Britain. At the time all ethnic groups were involved in some low level slavery. St patrick preached against slavery and it looks like it declined until the Vikings came along.

The Vikings were major slave holders and traders.

I was thinking of St Wulfstan, I thought his campaign against the slave trade was post Norman conquest, not that it matters, all of our forefathers were involved in trading slaves, we can agree that.

Anyway, back on topic, just because there is no significant afroCaribbean community in Ireland, it doesn't mean "black" history and Irish history aren't connected, on many levels. That's why a black history month is a great idea, to explore that shared past.

Covering your ears and claiming "we" had nothing to do with slavery, colonialism etc and therefore black history is irrelevant to us is being ignorant.

crockholm

Dursey Island in West Cork was also used as a base by vikings to keep irish slaves Before being shipped off to whatever godforsaken Place the vikings had in mind for them.
In the early 1600s Islamic Barbary pirates captured many inhabitants from Baltimore in west Cork( Cork again...but boy can they sing "Old man river" with feeling there) and sold them on at the slave markets in Tangiers.

Fratton Fred

crockholm wrote: »

Dursey Island in West Cork was also used as a base by vikings to keep irish slaves Before being shipped off to whatever godforsaken Place the vikings had in mind for them.
In the early 1600s Islamic Barbary pirates captured many inhabitants from Baltimore in west Cork( Cork again...but boy can they sing "Old man river" with feeling there) and sold them on at the slave markets in Tangiers.

It is far more complex than the poor old Irish sitting around writing poetry and then being captured by nasty vikings.
[Url]
http://www.historyireland.com/medieval-history-pre-1500/the-viking-slave-trade-entrepreneurs-or-heathen-slavers/[/url]

crannglas

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Dublin has one of the largest slave trafing markets in Europe, pre the African slave trade though.

Just because Ireland as an independent country didn't exist pre 1922 doesn't mean Ireland was any less part of the European/africa/Caribbean slave triangle than any other European country.

Again like I said nothing what so ever to do with Irish people as a state or nation. Lame attempt.

crannglas

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Dublin has one of the largest slave trafing markets in Europe, pre the African slave trade though.

Just because Ireland as an independent country didn't exist pre 1922 doesn't mean Ireland was any less part of the European/africa/Caribbean slave triangle than any other European country.

Again like I said nothing what so ever to do with Irish people as a state or nation. Lame attempt.

keeponhurling

Let's just call it "white guilt month"

Nodin

keeponhurling wrote: »

Let's just call it "white guilt month"

Why?

crannglas

keeponhurling wrote: »

Let's just call it "white guilt month"

That's a silly comment. But I do agree silly celebration. Black history month lol imagine a white history month. I would lmao.

Fratton Fred

crannglas wrote: »

Again like I said nothing what so ever to do with Irish people as a state or nation. Lame attempt.

That is a sad, sad attitude.

6781

Who sold the Africans into slavery?

6781

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Dublin has one of the largest slave trafing markets in Europe, pre the African slave trade though.

Just because Ireland as an independent country didn't exist pre 1922 doesn't mean Ireland was any less part of the European/africa/Caribbean slave triangle than any other European country.

Don't forget about all the Irish sold into slavery

Jellybaby1

Yes. Lest we forget:

http://www.sligoheritage.com/archBarbados.htm