Ireland becomes fourth country in world to celebrate Black History Month

Fratton Fred

6781 wrote: »

Don't forget about all the Irish sold into slavery

No one is forgetting about them.

Fratton Fred

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Yes. Lest we forget:

http://www.sligoheritage.com/archBarbados.htm

In case you missed this

http://oldmooresalmanac.com/news-topics/diaspora/duplicate-of-nairobi-dreaming.html

crockholm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It is far more complex than the poor old Irish sitting around writing poetry and then being captured by nasty vikings.

http://www.historyireland.com/medieval-history-pre-1500/the-viking-slave-trade-entrepreneurs-or-heathen-slavers/

Link not working for me,could you give me a brief synopsis.

You seem to have a peculiar attitude towards Irish people Fred,well,peculiar in this Century anyway.

It really wouldn't matter if "Poor old Irish people" were sitting down /standing up whilst Writing poetry or doing whatever chore they happened to be doing.

And yes,even though you seem to use the "nasty"in a winsome fashion,enslaving people is indeed nasty.

Fratton Fred

crockholm wrote: »

Link not working for me,could you give me a brief synopsis.

You seem to have a peculiar attitude towards Irish people Fred,well,peculiar in this Century anyway.

It really wouldn't matter if "Poor old Irish people" were sitting down /standing up whilst Writing poetry or doing whatever chore they happened to be doing.

And yes,even though you seem to use the "nasty"in a winsome fashion,enslaving people is indeed nasty.

It's not a peculiar attitude, it's more a case of drop the victim mentality and accept that black people have, throughout the centuries, been oppressed, victimised and generally mistreated more than anyone else.

The attitude from some seems to be "but it had nothing to do with us, we were oppressed as well", but that is largely irrelevant. The Irish have never been as oppressed as the blacks were and, to an extent, are today.

Fratton Fred

This should work.



http://www.historyireland.com/medieval-history-pre-1500/the-viking-slave-trade-entrepreneurs-or-heathen-slavers/

keeponhurling

Nodin wrote: »

Why?

Having a month dedicated a particular skin colour is ridiculous.

How do you define whether a historical event is black enough to include ?
At least One black person involved? Over 50% ? How about mixed race ?
I wouldn't want to be on the selection committee, it's a minefield out there.

If it a commemoration to slavery just call it that , and commemorate slavery for all people, not split by skin colour, gender, nationality or anything else

Nodin

keeponhurling wrote: »

Having a month dedicated a particular skin colour is ridiculous.

How do you define whether a historical event is black enough to include ?
At least One black person involved? Over 50% ? How about mixed race ?
I wouldn't want to be on the selection committee, it's a minefield out there.

If it a commemoration to slavery just call it that , and commemorate slavery for all people, not split by skin colour, gender, nationality or anything else

Why are you so convinced it will all be about slavery and "white guilt"?

Jellybaby1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

In case you missed this

http://oldmooresalmanac.com/news-topics/diaspora/duplicate-of-nairobi-dreaming.html

I've always known about Montserrat Irish. In fact this programme is linked in your link, and I saw the documentary first time round in the 70's.

Frank Lee Midere

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I was thinking of St Wulfstan, I thought his campaign against the slave trade was post Norman conquest, not that it matters, all of our forefathers were involved in trading slaves, we can agree that.

Anyway, back on topic, just because there is no significant afroCaribbean community in Ireland, it doesn't mean "black" history and Irish history aren't connected, on many levels. That's why a black history month is a great idea, to explore that shared past.

Covering your ears and claiming "we" had nothing to do with slavery, colonialism etc and therefore black history is irrelevant to us is being ignorant.

St Wulfstun was pre norman. He died in 1023. I think what happened here is that you got everything wrong.

Sand

Black history month as a concept is fairly harmless so long as its optional and doesn't try to import American race politics. Its White history month every other month of the year and no one complains. I don't see that it does a huge amount of harm to highlight particular events or people that might otherwise never be examined, not otherwise being considered significant enough.

That said, I really struggle to see what they're going to work with in terms of Irish black history month. Hence the value of holding it I guess. I think we can do without it turning into American history month, but there really isn't a huge heap they can work with in terms of Irish/Black history. I suppose they will have to focus on African history which is not something the curriculum otherwise touches on. If it goes down that route it will have succeeded in providing at least a crash course in the history of a continent which will be of value to everyone.

Frank Lee Midere

Fratton Fred wrote: »

This should work.



http://www.historyireland.com/medieval-history-pre-1500/the-viking-slave-trade-entrepreneurs-or-heathen-slavers/

There's nothing in there which makes your point. Look you clearly didn't realise that Dublin was a major centre of Viking power until a few posts ago, nor could tell Norman from Norse.

Frank Lee Midere

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It's not a peculiar attitude, it's more a case of drop the victim mentality and accept that black people have, throughout the centuries, been oppressed, victimised and generally mistreated more than anyone else.

The attitude from some seems to be "but it had nothing to do with us, we were oppressed as well", but that is largely irrelevant. The Irish have never been as oppressed as the blacks were and, to an extent, are today.

But in fact we have been. Colonial control of the African continent started in the late 19th century, there were fewer colonialists, there was no equivalent of penal laws and no famine equal to the Irish famine relative to populations. In fact Ireland is the only place in the world with a smaller population than 1845.

Although Britain did cause major famines in India. These were British actions too, not white.

Frank Lee Midere

Sand wrote: »

Black history month as a concept is fairly harmless so long as its optional and doesn't try to import American race politics. Its White history month every other month of the year and no one complains. I don't see that it does a huge amount of harm to highlight particular events or people that might otherwise never be examined, not otherwise being considered significant enough.

That said, I really struggle to see what they're going to work with in terms of Irish black history month. Hence the value of holding it I guess. I think we can do without it turning into American history month, but there really isn't a huge heap they can work with in terms of Irish/Black history. I suppose they will have to focus on African history which is not something the curriculum otherwise touches on. If it goes down that route it will have succeeded in providing at least a crash course in the history of a continent which will be of value to everyone.

African history is fine. US history has nothing to do with Ireland nor African immigrants.

RDM_83 again

Nodin wrote: »

Why are you so convinced it will all be about slavery and "white guilt"?

I know I keep making this point, but its Black history month not African history month.
Whats about the only commonality do the vastly different groups of people that can be called Black have, mistreatment by European or Middle Eastern colonists and slavers.
If this event is true to its name, its very much about race in the classic, its all about skin color sense, not a cultural groups like black history is in the USA where its the history of a group with a shared experience and past.

Nodin

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I know I keep making this point, but its Black history month not African history month.
Whats about the only commonality do the vastly different groups of people that can be called Black have, mistreatment by European or Middle Eastern colonists and slavers.
If this event is true to its name, its very much about race in the classic, its all about skin color sense, not a cultural groups like black history is in the USA where its the history of a group with a shared experience and past.

I doubt they're going to sit around and define their existence by their mistreatment by white people or others.

Fratton Fred

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

But in fact we have been. Colonial control of the African continent started in the late 19th century, there were fewer colonialists, there was no equivalent of penal laws and no famine equal to the Irish famine relative to populations. In fact Ireland is the only place in the world with a smaller population than 1845.

Although Britain did cause major famines in India. These were British actions too, not white.

Oh dear, you really do believe that don't you.

Sad.

Fratton Fred

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

St Wulfstun was pre norman. He died in 1023. I think what happened here is that you got everything wrong.

Scarlet for you.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wulfstan_(died_1095)

RDM_83 again

Nodin wrote: »

I doubt they're going to sit around and define their existence by their mistreatment by white people or others.

Ok, what shared culture, history and experience would an Igbo and a Native Australian have in common that makes them natural candidates to be included in the same event?
Other than negative treatment by whites (so white guilt), or having a lot of melanin (so actually a old school race based event), one link either than those two and I'l be happy?

Nodin

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Ok, what shared culture, history and experience would an Igbo and a Native Australian have in common that makes them natural candidates to be included in the same event?
Other than negative treatment by whites (so white guilt), or having a lot of melanin (so actually a old school race based event), one link either than those two and I'l be happy?

I'd imagine that those African/"black" peoples here would each celebrate various aspects of their culture and history, rather than go through a list of non-white peoples with "what the white man did...." detailed.

RDM_83 again

Nodin wrote: »

I'd imagine that those African/"black" peoples here would each celebrate various aspects of their culture and history, rather than go through a list of non-white peoples with "what the white man did...." detailed.

So thats a no to my question then?I find it ironic that I am arguing with you that skin color isn't a valid cultural distinction ;-)

pickarooney

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Prior to st patrick there were Irish raids on west Britain.

This is commemorated annually on the 8th of December by a reenactment.

DeadHand

Don't know if it's been mentioned already but many native Africans were themselves eager participants in and benefited handsomely from the international slave trade. It was used by some chieftains as an effective way of eliminating rival tribes and making a tidy profit at the same time. They would round their enemies up and simply sell them to the Europeans. Of course, more often than not the Europeans would turn on their erstwhile allies and enslave them in turn once all other tribes in an area had been harvested.

Don't know if slavery has anything to do with this BHM but if it has one would hope the celebrants would also explore this uncomfortable truth.

jmayo

RDM_83 again wrote: »

I'd presume some of the agro is because of it being called BLACK history month rather than , for something thats presumably coming from the viewpoint that skin color doesn't really matter, naming your cultural event around your skin color does seem a bit strange.

But you see if it was African hisotry month then it would have to include something for those White African migrants, those African migrants of Arab descent or those African migrants of Indian descent that are now living here.

crockholm wrote: »

The weird thing about this for me would be the Word "Celebrating". That seems to be taking the positive aspects of African Culture whilst ignoring the negatives. Surely history can't be just the bits we pick and choose to re-inforce our bias.History is History. Warts and all.

One would think.

bb1234567 wrote: »

Since when are slavs,jews ,italian and spanish people not white

If they are black perhaps ?

Sand wrote: »

Black history month as a concept is fairly harmless so long as its optional and doesn't try to import American race politics. Its White history month every other month of the year and no one complains.

What is this shyte that we have white history month every other month. :mad:
We have Irish and European history.

Just becasue the current and past majorities of those countries happen to be white doesn't mean it is white history.
We are not teaching kids history peppered with racism, thus is it not some white supremist's history.

In fact some of the history indeed shows the racism that was inolved ala the slave trade or colonisation and division of Africa by European powers.

Complaining or lamenting we are just normally teaching white history is akin to going to China and complaining they are only teaching "yellow" history.

jmayo

DeadHand wrote: »

Don't know if it's been mentioned already but many native Africans were themselves eager participants in and benefited handsomely from the international slave trade. It was used by some chieftains as an effective way of eliminating rival tribes and making a tidy profit at the same time. They would round their enemies up and simply sell them to the Europeans. Of course, more often than not the Europeans would turn on their erstwhile allies and enslave them in turn once all other tribes in an area had been harvested.

Don't know if slavery has anything to do with this BHM but if it has one would hope the celebrants would also explore this uncomfortable truth.

Some people have a mindset that the slave trade was all over Africa and that it was the white guys stealing and capturing black people.
That negates the fact most of the slaves that ended up in the new world originated in a few concentrated places in West Africa, were often captured by warring local tribes, and that the Arabs had for centuries been enslaving Africans and driving them across the Sahara to North Africa.

Sorry for the poor choice of words, but things are seldom just black and white.

smash

This better not clash with shark week because I know what I'll be watching!

jobbridge4life

smash wrote: »

This better not clash with shark week because I know what I'll be watching!

Cross over idea!

smash

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Cross over idea!

Black shark fortnight... we could be on to a winner!

jillymayr

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

The Irish are the blacks of Europe. And Dubliners are the blacks of Ireland. And the Northside Dubliners are the blacks of Dublin. So say it once, say it loud: I'm black and I'm proud.

okay this makes me laugh so hard

conorhal

smash wrote: »

This better not clash with shark week because I know what I'll be watching!

Inevitably such programs place most of their focus on the so called 'Great White' because the Discovery channel, as we know all to well, is run by The Man.

SWL

Fratton Fred wrote: »

It's not a peculiar attitude, it's more a case of drop the victim mentality and accept that black people have, throughout the centuries, been oppressed, victimised and generally mistreated more than anyone else.

The attitude from some seems to be "but it had nothing to do with us, we were oppressed as well", but that is largely irrelevant. The Irish have never been as oppressed as the blacks were and, to an extent, are today.

You are aware that blacks were the primary agents in slavery - wait of course you are not; its all the white mans fault.

Fratton Fred

SWL wrote: »

You are aware that blacks were the primary agents in slavery - wait of course you are not; its all the white mans fault.

That's irrelevant.

RobYourBuilder

Nodin wrote: »

I'd imagine that those African/"black" peoples here would each celebrate various aspects of their culture and history, rather than go through a list of non-white peoples with "what the white man did...." detailed.

Cool. So you would have no problem with white/European people here in Ireland getting together and setting up a white history month to celebrate various aspects of their culture and history?

TheBeardedLady

Why do you care so much? Who cares? Let them celebrate whatever they want if they're not hurting anybody.

RobYourBuilder

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Why do you care so much? Who cares? Let them celebrate whatever they want if they're not hurting anybody.

I care for three reasons. I can guarantee this will be a guilt trip on crack. Secondly, due to the double standards. If a group of white Europeans or those of European descent came together and put on a white history month to celebrate their shared history and culture there would be a public outcry and they would be declared racist. Thirdly, this quote from one of the organisers;

“What it means to be Irish is going to completely change, it’s already started … it will have completely transformed within two generations.”

Imagine emigrating to a country and coming out with that quote. Who is this black American to tell us what it means to be Irish?

TheBeardedLady

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

I care for three reasons. I can guarantee this will be a guilt trip on crack. Secondly, due to the double standards. If a group of white Europeans or those of European descent came together and put on a white history month to celebrate their shared history and culture there would be a public outcry and they would be declared racist. Thirdly, this quote from one of the organisers;



Imagine emigrating to a country and coming out with that quote. Who is this black American to tell us what it means to be Irish?

Whatever, man. Sounds as if you're making a mountain out of a molehill to me. Best of luck with it though!

Nodin

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Cool. So you would have no problem with white/European people here in Ireland getting together and setting up a white history month to celebrate various aspects of their culture and history?

I've already explained why that's bollocks.

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

I care for three reasons. I can guarantee this will be a guilt trip on crack

Why would it be?

RDM_83 again

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Why do you care so much? Who cares? Let them celebrate whatever they want if they're not hurting anybody.

Its not a big deal at all, its a privately organised event*(though I hazard it will get some quango money).
What this is an event that presumably has a noble goal, increasing awareness of African History and Culture, but by naming the event as they have particularly in a Irish context (its understandable in the USA), they place an emphasis on skin color.
We are constantly told that a focus on skin color as signifier of a shared cultural/social background is stupid particularly across vastly different ethnic groups, a point I agree on (see my posts on previous pages on examples on why its ridiculous).

This is a harmless or positive event depending on ones outlook, the thinking behind naming the event "Black" History Month is more worry-some, indicating either an ignorance of how broad the term Black means and assigning a American centric meaning (which is sort of baffeling if you consider the ethnic/historic background of the Irelands 'Black' citizens), or viewing skin color as a valid point of identification and distinction that supersedes much greater social, national, geographic, historic and genetic differences.

* Though its not like privately organised events RE: AOH parade- New York don't cause enormous controversy when they operate a policy that can be construed as offensive/discriminatory

DeadHand

Can't for the life of me understand the horror this nonsense is inspiring in some posters.

From what I've seen, BHM is just a small group of pretentious worthies having a circle jerk while the rest of us get on with our lives.

People aren't being forced to attend, it's not going to become compulsory in schools, it's not going to recieve blanket media coverage, it's not going to change anything or intrude on anyone.

Apparently it's self-funded so let them have their pantomines and pottery classes or whatever. Who cares?

Nodin

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Its not a big deal at all, its a privately organised event*(though I hazard it will get some quango money).
What this is an event that presumably has a noble goal, increasing awareness of African History and Culture, but by naming the event as they have particularly in a Irish context (its understandable in the USA), they place an emphasis on skin color.
We are constantly told that a focus on skin color as signifier of a shared cultural/social background is stupid particularly across vastly different ethnic groups, a point I agree on (see my posts on previous pages on examples on why its ridiculous).

This is a harmless or positive event depending on ones outlook, the thinking behind naming the event "Black" History Month is more worry-some, indicating either an ignorance of how broad the term Black means and assigning a American centric meaning (which is sort of baffeling if you consider the ethnic/historic background of the Irelands 'Black' citizens), or viewing skin color as a valid point of identification and distinction that supersedes much greater social, national, geographic, historic and genetic differences.

* Though its not like privately organised events RE: AOH parade- New York don't cause enormous controversy when they operate a policy that can be construed as offensive/discriminatory

It's actually been renamed African American History Month in the states.
http://www.loc.gov/law/help/commemorative-observations/african-american.php

TheBeardedLady

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Its not a big deal at all, its a privately organised event*(though I hazard it will get some quango money).
What this is an event that presumably has a noble goal, increasing awareness of African History and Culture, but by naming the event as they have particularly in a Irish context (its understandable in the USA), they place an emphasis on skin color.
We are constantly told that a focus on skin color as signifier of a shared cultural/social background is stupid particularly across vastly different ethnic groups, a point I agree on (see my posts on previous pages on examples on why its ridiculous).

This is a harmless or positive event depending on ones outlook, the thinking behind naming the event "Black" History Month is more worry-some, indicating either an ignorance of how broad the term Black means and assigning a American centric meaning (which is sort of baffeling if you consider the ethnic/historic background of the Irelands 'Black' citizens), or viewing skin color as a valid point of identification and distinction that supersedes much greater social, national, geographic, historic and genetic differences.

* Though its not like privately organised events RE: AOH parade- New York don't cause enormous controversy when they operate a policy that can be construed as offensive/discriminatory

You have a problem with the name, which is fine but I was referring to the posters who seem to be almost angered by it (or that's the feeling I get from their posts) and are trying to put a more sinister slant on the event which I don't personally get at all.

My view is that it's a harmless event that will pass off without any negative repercussions.

RobYourBuilder

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

You have a problem with the name, which is fine but I was referring to the posters who seem to be almost angered by it (or that's the feeling I get from their posts) and are trying to put a more sinister slant on the event which I don't personally get at all.

My view is that it's a harmless event that will pass off without any negative repercussions.

Will ya stop. If the roles were reversed and white Europeans and whites of European descent got together to hold and promote a white history month to celebrate their shared culture and history, there would be absolute uproar in the media and with the general public.

Up until recently, there were feck all blacks in the country. FFS, one of the main organisers moved here just 18 months ago. Their history in this country could be summed up in an hour. Never mind a month.

Davarus Walrus

Online Outrage Day is next month.

Nodin

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Will ya stop. If the roles were reversed and white Europeans and whites of European descent got together to hold and promote a white history month to celebrate their shared culture and history, there would be absolute uproar in the media and with the general public.

Up until recently, there were feck all blacks in the country. FFS, one of the main organisers moved here just 18 months ago. Their history in this country could be summed up in an hour. Never mind a month.

Still haven't explained how you "can guarantee this will be a guilt trip on crack"................

TheBeardedLady

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Will ya stop. If the roles were reversed and white Europeans and whites of European descent got together to hold and promote a white history month to celebrate their shared culture and history, there would be absolute uproar in the media and with the general public.

Up until recently, there were feck all blacks in the country. FFS, one of the main organisers moved here just 18 months ago. Their history in this country could be summed up in an hour. Never mind a month.

Ah will YOU stop and go to bed! Chill! :cool: Getting your knickers in a twist over nothing.

RobYourBuilder

TheBeardedLady wrote: »

Ah will YOU stop and go to bed! Chill! :cool: Getting your knickers in a twist over nothing.

If you have no interest in discussing this topic then go away and stop boring me with your nonsense.

RobYourBuilder

DeadHand wrote: »

People aren't being forced to attend, it's not going to become compulsory in schools, it's not going to recieve blanket media coverage, it's not going to change anything or intrude on anyone.

Apparently it's self-funded so let them have their pantomines and pottery classes or whatever. Who cares?

Self funded? The launch was held in the European Union offices.

As for it not being compulsory. Well, not yet. Give it time;

Ikeh has called on the Government to officially recognise BHMI and so that more organisations, schools and libraries will participate.

Nodin

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

If you have no interest in discussing this topic then go away and stop boring me with your nonsense.

And it will be a "guilt trip on crack" because why?

TheBeardedLady

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

If you have no interest in discussing this topic then go away and stop boring me with your nonsense.

My point of view is that you're making a big deal out of nothing that will pass off without you even noticing. If you don't like that opinion, then perhaps you shouldn't partake on a discussion forum. It's not your place to mod this thread.

suicide_circus

The fact that we haven't celebrated black history month up to now just goes to show what horrible racist fcuks we were. The fact the we're only celebrating it for a month just goes to show what horrible racist fcuks we still are.

Nodin

suicide_circus wrote: »

The fact that we haven't celebrated black history month up to now just goes to show what horrible racist fcuks we were. The fact the we're only celebrating it for a month just goes to show what horrible racist fcuks we still are.

Bit grumpy today?