Budget 2015 [De wan an' only thread!]

Iwasfrozen

renegademaster wrote: »

tryin to buy some peace but the irish are awake now and are willing and able to fight back!! :pac:

This budget has taken the carpet out from under the extreme left. Try to organise a protest now and you'll be left with 50 odd smelly unwashed crusties.

VinLieger

renegademaster wrote: »

tryin to buy some peace but the irish are awake now and are willing and able to fight back!! :pac:

Wait till it rains on Nov 1st we will see how "awake" people are

Irish Steve

Just wasted longer than I should have done skimming the post budget posts here, and I'm not sure if it's depressed me or just confirmed my worst fears about the future of Ireland.

so much begrudgery, so many people that want to blame everyone else for their problems, so few people who recognise that THEIR vote for FF and the policies they espoused was responsible for so much damage to the standards of living of everyone.

I'm not about to post a potted history of the last 25 years, no one would believe me if I did, there are just so many things that have gone wrong for us.

The number of ways we've been shafted by "the system" is scary, and at 63, I've lost the will to try and fight the system any more, it can't be done.

So many completely wrong statements about things like self employment, and real jobs, and social welfare. So little in the last 15 pages about the budget.

I'd love to work, and have the capacity to do it, but so many of the (real) skills I have were learnt on the job, but didn't have "paperwork" to prove it, and now, due to the crazy way that things like "Health & Safety" have been enlarged, if you don't have 50 million pieces of paper to "prove" your experience, you're not allowed to do it any more.

As a crazy example. I can (and have) rewire an entire industrial unit for 3 Phase power, but if I change one single circuit breaker on the main panel in my own home, I commit an offence. I can run rings round most alarm installers, as they are basically a glorified computer, but if my daughter pays me a few bob for repairing her alarm, she's liable for a €3000 fine for "using an unlicensed contractor". A few years ago, I spent a week being trained how to safely use fork lifts around aircraft, but if I now apply for a job loading trucks, they want a "fork lift licence", which is not as such a legal requirement, it's another of these "jobs for the boys" training schemes.
I was working at the airport loading bags, but had the licences that would in theory have allowed me to fly the things I was loading, if the jobs had been there, but because I had those (external) skills and was prepared to use them, I got shafted by SIPTU because I threatened their stranglehold on things. I could give more examples, but it's pointless, and I'll probably be abused by some here for even this.

The ONLY way that economies work is when someone does something that adds value to a product, or provides a service that's needed to another, and gets paid for that.

The problem we face now is that there are too many areas where the "value" added is not clearly seen. Financial services, a lot of the time, there's no "real" product, or result, other than a cost to a third party, yet it's rewarded out of all proportion to the value of that service to the economy.

We've now got way too many things that are "required", but the reality is that they are not. Training courses that are not training anything new, they just provide a piece of paper that "proves" the skill might be there, though I have my doubts about that, having seen the quality of some of the work done by "trained" people, if you need examples, read the horror stories in the plumbing or electrical sections of boards, or look at the massive issues that have happened in places like Priory Hall.

The Budget. All that I now am increasingly despising about politics was clearly on show yesterday. Performances that would have been more appropriate in the Abbey Theatre than in the Dail, there are times when it was almost farcical watching and listening to the nonsense that went on in what is supposedly the legislative core of the country.

So many quangos, most of them powerless to do anything about the issues that they are supposedly there to deal with. I have to wonder why so many people work for such organisations, it must be soul destroying to spend most of the day responding to issues with statements like "this issue is not within our remit", or similar. These are the sorts of things that cost us dearly, and do very little to provide any real value for money, and they are the sorts of issues that are destroying the ability of the Irish Economy to compete against other countries,

Thought about it more as I typed. Depressed, more than I realised, because it's becoming increasingly clear that the direction of "things" is going to fail, because the will to change is not there at a political and national level.

My daughter gave us some unexpected news recently, a new life on the way, and I'd like to hope that the future for that child will be a good one, but given the issues that are ahead of Ireland and other "Western" democracies, I'm worried about that future.

Yesterday did NOTHING to address issues like energy costs, alternative energy, climate changes, and other world wide issues that are going to affect life here.

NOTHING to stop the new bubble in property that's happening in the Dublin area, probably because they want another bubble, it will fuel more "feel good" and get people spending money they don't have again, which will reduce the long term cost of servicing the debts from the last time round on this roundabout, and they will all have retired on their protected obscene pensions before the problems from the next bust arrive to be dealt with.

NOTHING about reforming the Health Services to make them more efficient, and responsive to patients rather than insurance companies. I wonder what percentage of the Health budget is spent on tracking expenditure by patient in order to be able to bill health insurers, and how much more of that budget is then spent in collecting those fees. How many people are "working" in health to provide service to health that have nothing to do with patient health, and everything to do with the finance of health? the acid test is do these jobs add value, or are they just a cost on the service that if the service was run and funded in a different manner would mean a reduction in the cost of providing that service?

I wonder if I will get any sensible responses? Probably not, it's AH, and to respond to this will require some thought, which has been noticeably absent from many of the most recent posts.

ItsLikeThis

Irish Steve wrote: »

Just wasted longer than I should have done skimming the post budget posts here, and I'm not sure if it's depressed me or just confirmed my worst fears about the future of Ireland.

so much begrudgery, so many people that want to blame everyone else for their problems, so few people who recognise that THEIR vote for FF and the policies they espoused was responsible for so much damage to the standards of living of everyone.

I'm not about to post a potted history of the last 25 years, no one would believe me if I did, there are just so many things that have gone wrong for us.

The number of ways we've been shafted by "the system" is scary, and at 63, I've lost the will to try and fight the system any more, it can't be done.

So many completely wrong statements about things like self employment, and real jobs, and social welfare. So little in the last 15 pages about the budget.

I'd love to work, and have the capacity to do it, but so many of the (real) skills I have were learnt on the job, but didn't have "paperwork" to prove it, and now, due to the crazy way that things like "Health & Safety" have been enlarged, if you don't have 50 million pieces of paper to "prove" your experience, you're not allowed to do it any more.

As a crazy example. I can (and have) rewire an entire industrial unit for 3 Phase power, but if I change one single circuit breaker on the main panel in my own home, I commit an offence. I can run rings round most alarm installers, as they are basically a glorified computer, but if my daughter pays me a few bob for repairing her alarm, she's liable for a €3000 fine for "using an unlicensed contractor". A few years ago, I spent a week being trained how to safely use fork lifts around aircraft, but if I now apply for a job loading trucks, they want a "fork lift licence", which is not as such a legal requirement, it's another of these "jobs for the boys" training schemes.
I was working at the airport loading bags, but had the licences that would in theory have allowed me to fly the things I was loading, if the jobs had been there, but because I had those (external) skills and was prepared to use them, I got shafted by SIPTU because I threatened their stranglehold on things. I could give more examples, but it's pointless, and I'll probably be abused by some here for even this.

The ONLY way that economies work is when someone does something that adds value to a product, or provides a service that's needed to another, and gets paid for that.

The problem we face now is that there are too many areas where the "value" added is not clearly seen. Financial services, a lot of the time, there's no "real" product, or result, other than a cost to a third party, yet it's rewarded out of all proportion to the value of that service to the economy.

We've now got way too many things that are "required", but the reality is that they are not. Training courses that are not training anything new, they just provide a piece of paper that "proves" the skill might be there, though I have my doubts about that, having seen the quality of some of the work done by "trained" people, if you need examples, read the horror stories in the plumbing or electrical sections of boards, or look at the massive issues that have happened in places like Priory Hall.

The Budget. All that I now am increasingly despising about politics was clearly on show yesterday. Performances that would have been more appropriate in the Abbey Theatre than in the Dail, there are times when it was almost farcical watching and listening to the nonsense that went on in what is supposedly the legislative core of the country.

So many quangos, most of them powerless to do anything about the issues that they are supposedly there to deal with. I have to wonder why so many people work for such organisations, it must be soul destroying to spend most of the day responding to issues with statements like "this issue is not within our remit", or similar. These are the sorts of things that cost us dearly, and do very little to provide any real value for money, and they are the sorts of issues that are destroying the ability of the Irish Economy to compete against other countries,

Thought about it more as I typed. Depressed, more than I realised, because it's becoming increasingly clear that the direction of "things" is going to fail, because the will to change is not there at a political and national level.

My daughter gave us some unexpected news recently, a new life on the way, and I'd like to hope that the future for that child will be a good one, but given the issues that are ahead of Ireland and other "Western" democracies, I'm worried about that future.

Yesterday did NOTHING to address issues like energy costs, alternative energy, climate changes, and other world wide issues that are going to affect life here.

NOTHING to stop the new bubble in property that's happening in the Dublin area, probably because they want another bubble, it will fuel more "feel good" and get people spending money they don't have again, which will reduce the long term cost of servicing the debts from the last time round on this roundabout, and they will all have retired on their protected obscene pensions before the problems from the next bust arrive to be dealt with.

NOTHING about reforming the Health Services to make them more efficient, and responsive to patients rather than insurance companies. I wonder what percentage of the Health budget is spent on tracking expenditure by patient in order to be able to bill health insurers, and how much more of that budget is then spent in collecting those fees. How many people are "working" in health to provide service to health that have nothing to do with patient health, and everything to do with the finance of health? the acid test is do these jobs add value, or are they just a cost on the service that if the service was run and funded in a different manner would mean a reduction in the cost of providing that service?

I wonder if I will get any sensible responses? Probably not, it's AH, and to respond to this will require some thought, which has been noticeably absent from many of the most recent posts.

Excellent post

Barely There

Irish Steve wrote: »

Yesterday did NOTHING to address issues like energy costs, alternative energy, climate changes, and other world wide issues that are going to affect life here.

Good!

I don't want our politicians wasting their time on issues on which Ireland has a completely negligible effect in a worldwide context, just to pander to the tree-huggers.

Irish Steve

Barely There wrote: »

Good!

I don't want our politicians wasting their time on issues on which Ireland has a completely negligible effect in a worldwide context, just to pander to the tree-huggers.

You think that paying several euro per hour to heat a house is tree hugging? I'd like our politicians to encourage alternatives that don't cost nearly €1 per litre, given that most heating systems will use about a thousand litres a year. Alternative fuels, better insulation, they all need some better research, and funding to make them viable alternatives

I'd also like to be able to visit my son and his family in Clare for less than €50, and given the alternatives that should be available, it's possible, but the politicians have a vested interest in keeping oil usage high, due to the massive tax that's added to the basic price.

I'm not in to tree hugging, not in the least, I'd just like to be able to do "normal" things without being under massive pressure as a result.

seamus

yipeeeee wrote: »

If I hear accessible affordable housing once more.

There was 80 people sleeping rough last year each night.

We have it so good, people have no idea.

How does that compare to the rest of the EU?

I'm not trying to downplay the seriousness of the problem, but there will always be homeless people no matter what you do. So figures saying, "there are X people sleeping rough" are somewhat meaningless unless we know whether that's up or down on the expected figure, and how that compares in a global context.

murphm45

Irish Steve wrote: »

Just wasted longer than I should have done skimming the post budget posts here, and I'm not sure if it's depressed me or just confirmed my worst fears about the future of Ireland.
....

I wonder if I will get any sensible responses? Probably not, it's AH, and to respond to this will require some thought, which has been noticeably absent from many of the most recent posts.

That really is a very detailed and impressive post .. are you lost?! Seriously thought I think you might have missed your calling.

Just two small comments. In terms of reforms you want/we need I just don't think budget day is ever going to be the place where these are outlined and personally I think that's right. They're serious and would be demoted to side show issues if anything related to them was announced on budget day.

In terms the "pieces of paper" I think the reason this is done is convenience. If they were their employers or consumers would have to test people before hiring them to ensure they were adequately qualified. I agree its not ideal (qualifications only give knowledge of basic competence) but its probably the easiest and lowest cost method of giving some guarantee of competence.

Like I said I'm not disagreeing with any point you made but unfortunately in some cases I cant see a better alternative. Saying that I am a simpleton so I'm sure there are solutions out there I'm just too stupid to see them!

yipeeeee

seamus wrote: »

How does that compare to the rest of the EU?

I'm not trying to downplay the seriousness of the problem, but there will always be homeless people no matter what you do. So figures saying, "there are X people sleeping rough" are somewhat meaningless unless we know whether that's up or down on the expected figure, and how that compares in a global context.

That's my point.

Uriel.

Barely There wrote: »

Good!

I don't want our politicians wasting their time on issues on which Ireland has a completely negligible effect in a worldwide context, just to pander to the tree-huggers.

Laughable.

I'd like to see why you think Ireland's impact is only negligible to be honest. Furthermore, if every country adopted that attitude, the world seriously would be fnucked (maybe it already is).

Just as importantly, and it clearly shows your own myopia in regards to this issue as you have failed to address the issue, is not just Ireland's impact on the Global Climate, but rather the reverse. Year after year, Ireland fails to properly deal with the significant risk that is coming down the line in respect of energy security and affordability. Resources such as oil, coal, gas etc. do not have a long-term future and are finite resource. The cost of these is only going one way. Additionally, the cost of using these type of "dirty" resources is going to cost Ireland in the long-run vis-a-vis carbon accounting.

We have some opportunity to start developing, in a serious way, alternatives, but we are aprpoaching it at a total snail pace.

The view that the importance of environmental protection and sustainability is the preserve of "tree huggers" is what I would expect from someone who has their arse firmly rooted in 1970s. It's time to get with the modern world!

BoJack Horseman

Uriel. wrote: »

Laughable.

I'd like to see why you think Ireland's impact is only negligible to be honest. Furthermore, if every country adopted that attitude, the world seriously would be fnucked (maybe it already is).

Just as importantly, and it clearly shows your own myopia in regards to this issue as you have failed to address the issue, is not just Ireland's impact on the Global Climate, but rather the reverse. Year after year, Ireland fails to properly deal with the significant risk that is coming down the line in respect of energy security and affordability. Resources such as oil, coal, gas etc. do not have a long-term future and are finite resource. The cost of these is only going one way. Additionally, the cost of using these type of "dirty" resources is going to cost Ireland in the long-run vis-a-vis carbon accounting.

We have some opportunity to start developing, in a serious way, alternatives, but we are aprpoaching it at a total snail pace.

The view that the importance of environmental protection and sustainability is the preserve of "tree huggers" is what I would expect from someone who has their arse firmly rooted in 1970s. It's time to get with the modern world!

Politics is politics though.

Every attempt to increase renewables is vehemently opposed by locals.

Is it politicians fault or is it the peoples that NIMBYism rules supreme.

And what is this modern world you speak of?
The actual modern world has decided it doesn't give 2 poops about climate change.

The government have acted though by hammering people through carbon taxes.

Happyman42

Barely There wrote: »

Good!

I don't want our politicians wasting their time on issues on which Ireland has a completely negligible effect in a worldwide context, just to pander to the tree-huggers.

Like conserving water? :rolleyes:

Uriel.

BoJack Horseman wrote: »

Politics is politics though.

Every attempt to increase renewables is vehemently opposed by locals.

Is it politicians fault or is it the peoples that NIMBYism rules supreme.

And what is this modern world you speak of?
The actual modern world has decided it doesn't give 2 poops about climate change.

The government have acted though by hammering people through carbon taxes.

Generally, it's a mix, with probably more of the balance towards nimbyism - the "everything is great, but not in my backyard gang". Also competing interests. Not just industry v environment or costs v sustainability, but even environment v environment in some circumstances.

I don't think that's a fair reflection on the modern world. sure, many don't give a damn, but realisation of the importance of the environment, climate etc. is starting to creep in and filter through the "system". Not nearly quickly enough or "smart" enough. Hammering people with taxes as you say, is not the right approach really (at least not entirely). Incentivising good environmental practice would achieve far more and would turn the:
environment = negative (it costs me)
to
environment = positive (we can save more)

Perception.

Irish Steve

murphm45 wrote: »

That really is a very detailed and impressive post .. are you lost?! Seriously thought I think you might have missed your calling.

Lost? Very likely. but finding a way forward and or out of this mess is becoming increasingly hard, and not made easier by a total lack of any resources to do anything different now. Calling? I wish I knew, as you will see shortly, it's not for the lack of trying!

In terms the "pieces of paper" I think the reason this is done is convenience. If they were their employers or consumers would have to test people before hiring them to ensure they were adequately qualified. I agree its not ideal (qualifications only give knowledge of basic competence) but its probably the easiest and lowest cost method of giving some guarantee of competence.

That's the theory, but there have been more than a few cases in recent times where the paper got handed out (by FAS among others) to people who were incapable of doing the job, my problem is that when I did all the training I did, (some of it over 40 years ago), if you didn't pass the training, you were out of a job, and employers back then didn't give employees a piece of paper that might have opened doors in other employment. So, no paper now is a BIG problem when HR departments insist on paper to protect their backsides.

The "system" hasn't caught up yet with the problem that jobs are no longer for life, when I was young, most of the older people around me had trained for a trade, and were still working in that trade 20 or 30 years later, and in most cases until retirement. That's very much now not the case, there are very few jobs that are that secure, partly because of changes in technology that make the job no longer appropriate, or changes in other areas that mean moving.

Over 40 some odd years, I've worked in a wide range of areas. My prime work was and still to some extent is computers, but even in that, I've been a maintenance engineer, salesman, analyst, programmer, and consultant, and had to get to grips with a number of different manufacturers and languages, on everything from PC's to computers with 250+ users in large multinationals, but now, if you don't have a number of (preferably Microsoft) certified training courses, the CV gets filed vertically, possibly instantly.

Things like recovering the complete processing system for a (1986) £15 Million per year company in under a week after a flood don't get a "training certificate", but it got me the job running their data processing systems 3 months later, but to a modern HR department, that's irrelevant, unless there's 20 Microsoft CE certificates attached.

We bought 2 very old cottages in 1973, gutted the interior, and completely rebuilt them, and I did all the plumbing, gas and electrics, and it was all certified, but now, I'm regarded as a criminal if I touch certain things in those areas and also get paid for it.

I spent a LOT of time and money getting a professional pilot's licence, but Saddam destroyed recruitment into airlines at just the wrong time for me, a few years later, working at Dublin airport on the ramp loading bags and the like, I got shafted by SIPTU because "I wasn't trained" to do a job. I was, just not by that employer, it was an excuse to get me out because I was a threat to the SIPTU control of things, and a weak management didn't have the balls to stand up to them.

I've also done professional driving, built flight simulators, book keeping, vehicle maintenance, fork lift operations, and a number of other different things, but proving it is another matter.

The underlying issue is that too many of the people running things are stuck in the wrong mindset. Civil servants are very much jobs for life, with very few being removed even if they are totally incompetent, and that mentality is controlling so much of what happens.

There are no real support services or assistance for people that have had the temerity to risk being self employed for any length of time, (I did, and in hindsight, I should not have, the long term costs have been massive), and there's no real support to try and get older people like me, with lots of wide ranging skills and experience back into any meaningful work, and by that, I don't mean cleaning floors for McDonalds for minimum wage.

My biggest fear is the increasing disconnect between (for lack of a better word) the political classes, and "the ordinary citizen", and recent events only serve to make that worse, we've seen way too many situations where the "political elite" have said and done things, (especially on their own finances and pensions), and the people are powerless to do anything about it, and a change of party does nothing, because the change doesn't change the mindset, and turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

Even things like the wrong vote in a referendum seems not to faze them, they just come back with a slight change of words, and try again, with some sort of sweetener to get the result they need.

There are much wider and bigger issues out there that need to be addressed, but I see no will or desire from the political side to engage with that process, probably because they don't see votes in the short term.

I'm sure that if a way to provide home heating for the masses at a quarter of the price of present systems was offered, it would be a winner, but the downside of that is that it might not be attributable to one party, so not a vote winner for them, and the finance side would not be happy to see a significant reduction in the tax take from VAT and other taxes on things like oil and gas. Ordinary home owners though would be only too happy to see their energy bills drastically reduced. Funding real research in those areas would be even less of a vote winner, as it's longer term, (or longer than the next election, which is all the political classes are interested in) so not even on their radar.

And yes, you're right, there may not be an alternative, but it would be nice to at least see the system trying to find them.

Iwasfrozen

Irish Steve wrote: »

Lost? Very likely. but finding a way forward and or out of this mess is becoming increasingly hard, and not made easier by a total lack of any resources to do anything different now. Calling? I wish I knew, as you will see shortly, it's not for the lack of trying!

We're stuck in a rut primarily due to our high level of public and private debt. This is a phenomenon shared across the western world and will hamper our attempts to ever recover.

We can never properly recover until we're out of debt and to get out of debt we're going to need to make the kind of cuts that will damage the economy even further. It's not even politically possible to make these cuts.

lanos

Uriel. wrote: »

Generally, it's a mix, with probably more of the balance towards nimbyism - the "everything is great, but not in my backyard gang".
Perception.

thank you
thank you
thank you
for not using the work brigade

it is the most overused word on boards IMO
and it really pi**es me off

say: gang, group, organisation etc

murphm45

Irish Steve wrote: »

Lost? Very likely. but finding a way forward and or out of this mess is becoming increasingly hard, and not made easier by a total lack of any resources to do anything different now. Calling? I wish I knew, as you will see shortly, it's not for the lack of trying!
.

I really should clarify my comments because I fear I may have offended you. My are you lost comment was referring to you posting an intelligent and rational argument which is incredibly rare for After Hours. In terms of referring to your calling what you outlined is something I'd expect from an intellectual or college professor and your comments had suggested that you focused more on hands on type roles. Both were made in a complementary fashion so sorry if I did cause offence.

One thing that really blows me away though is your diligence and dedication to work. I'm genuinely awed by your hard work, if I could even match a fraction of that I could probably die happy. I appreciate compliments from a stranger on boards are very cold comfort but it really is a shame more people (myself included) aren't more like you.

You're right about the political class too. They're too invested on the status quo ti even try to chance anything but to a degree why should they? They'll never get thanked or rewarded because most people want immediate gratification. Unfortunately change takes time but where elections are held every 2-3 (allowing for the locals and Europeans) no one, even if they were extremely altruistic, so inclined and to not care about personal gratification, would have a chance to change anything before there would be some kind of revolt.

It would be nice to see some changes and hopefully they'll come but there more likely to slowly dribble through the system than to pour over it and clean it out!

ressem

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

We're stuck in a rut primarily due to our high level of public and private debt. This is a phenomenon shared across the western world and will hamper our attempts to ever recover.

We can never properly recover until we're out of debt and to get out of debt we're going to need to make the kind of cuts that will damage the economy even further. It's not even politically possible to make these cuts.

No, even without the debt in the last decade, we were following the same broken path that Irish Steve describes.

Organisations putting up barriers to work and believing that training / certifying / taking a risk on green or non-formally certified employees should be someone else's expense.

Examples:
Massive startup costs for childcare providers, huge demand for the service, unaffordable prices, massive unemployment (which should mean people available for retraining). At what points can society relieve the bottleneck. Tax relief is just toying at the edges.

So many FAS courses that seem to be arts and hobbies for grannies, at too casual level to aid employability, while people are left unskilled.

That mandatory 4 year degree, no matter how out of date or irrelevant it's content, before eligibility to so much real training. Fail it in your 20s and you've to start again from scratch in later life, excluding 50 % of young people and a higher proportion of oldies from employment.
Unless you can network / somehow earn enough trust in someone to take a chance on you, who will risk the wrath of HR and the legal / insurance attacks.

Barring specialist professions, the vast majority of learning is on-the job and could be obtained at least as effectively in small digestible blocks of intensive training at weekends.
The common complaint is that college students have no simultaneous workplace experience on which to associate and trial the college syllabus so it goes out the other ear, or is remembered out of context.

A lot of this is employees /unions pulling up a ladder behind them.

Irish Steve

murphm45 wrote: »

I really should clarify my comments because I fear I may have offended you. My are you lost comment was referring to you posting an intelligent and rational argument which is incredibly rare for After Hours. In terms of referring to your calling what you outlined is something I'd expect from an intellectual or college professor and your comments had suggested that you focused more on hands on type roles. Both were made in a complementary fashion so sorry if I did cause offence.

You can relax, there was no offence of any sort taken, and while I didn't take quite the AH and intelligent aspect, it wasn't any sort of issue.

One thing that really blows me away though is your diligence and dedication to work. I'm genuinely awed by your hard work, if I could even match a fraction of that I could probably die happy. I appreciate compliments from a stranger on boards are very cold comfort but it really is a shame more people (myself included) aren't more like you.

There are indeed times when it's been hard, but most of it has been FUN, and that's a big factor. You don't want to be like me, I'd have to admit to having made plenty of mistakes along the way, possibly at times through being too trusting, but I can't change it now. Some of those mistakes have also hurt big time financially, the biggest mistake was when we believed Bertie and his famous "It will be a short recession, and a soft landing for the property market". If we'd known that the recession was going to be so desperately deep and long, we'd not have pushed so much money into supporting our daughter's floristry business, as it still ended up having to close, leaving her and us with massive debts and no way to repay them (even now), but that's hindsight.

You're right about the political class too. They're too invested on the status quo ti even try to chance anything but to a degree why should they? They'll never get thanked or rewarded because most people want immediate gratification. Unfortunately change takes time but where elections are held every 2-3 (allowing for the locals and Europeans) no one, even if they were extremely altruistic, so inclined and to not care about personal gratification, would have a chance to change anything before there would be some kind of revolt.

It would be nice to see some changes and hopefully they'll come but there more likely to slowly dribble through the system than to pour over it and clean it out!

Valid points, though I think they've made very sure that they are recognised financially, if the figures that bounce around here are anything to go by.

If the present system is to survive, even if in different form, there HAS to be change, to reconnect the political classes, parties and their civil servants to the rest of us, so that there is a real connect and relationship, if for no other reason than that the politicians have to regain the respect and trust of the rest of us, as they've well and truly managed to lose it in recent times.

jank

Uriel. wrote: »

I like it to be honest and hope it stays.

It provides a very clear, well covered (by media etc.) statement of how our finances are being organised for the next 12 months, and gives a clear indication as to the impact (good, bad or indifferent) to a citizen's pay and expenditure.

You can hear from all the main parties (and others) as to what they believe are the problems with the budget (allowing individuals who wish to engage, decide which parties make some sense and which don't).

I also think that the hype surrounding budget days creates a platform for interest for the people and as result drives the media into widespread discussion, analysis, opinion, expert input etc. which I think is really useful for citizens to listen to (alternatively they can switch off the tv/radio or close the newspaper).

I think it would be useful for the budget to provide the detail of the following year's income/expenditure by Government and a skeleton outline of the following two years (or a roadmap in political speak), where an indication of the direction of future budgets is provided with the detail to be completed the following year, depending on how things develop over the following 12 months. I think we are moving in this direction, but I'd like to see it play a bigger role

The problem with all this though it that it drives a type of short term reactive narrative into what the budget details. The other political parties will all say negative things about it anyway. Its all about me, me, me. Nothing about how we are going to run the country for the next 3,5 or even ten years. No vision or strategic planning. It has been reduced to pure populist auction politics and the sooner the budget circus goes away the better.

Take for example the recommendations of the fiscal advisory council. They were created after the crash to advise government on fiscal responsibility. They have all been ignored and the chairman of the council has hinted that he may resign in future if their recommendations are basically used as firelighters. Now if FG are the 'most' responsible party in Ireland in terms of financial prudence, can you imagine what havoc FF or Sinn Fein would wreck on the economy over the long run. Its a ****ing shambles tbh.

crannglas

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Spent 2 years living in Oz - had a permanent visa - got free health care from the moment my foot hit the ground. Hardly nothing as I am a diabetic.

Re: where asylum seekers live



http://www.unhcr.ie/our-work-in-ireland/the-asylum-process-in-ireland

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/more-than-4-000-living-in-direct-provision-system-1.1891353

As I said, I don't know who you are referring to when you speak of 'migrants' living in council flats and claiming the dole but they are not asylum seekers. They may be people who have been granted refugee status - no mean feat as it is notoriously difficult in Ireland.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/only-25-granted-asylum-last-year-lowest-rate-in-eu-26718014.html

I do not know why you constantly trying to change subject to involve genuine asylum seekers. The facts remain, fake asylum seekers arrive claim asylum. When fail, appeal. On appeal are entitled to free housing rent allowance medical care education amongst free legal aid. They do not need success in asylum process cause get free everything while appealing. They fail because they are fake.
But because they are allowed keep appealing they are clogging up the system and blocking genuine ones. What happened for you is completely different. Unless you lie about where you are from and your name and claim you are in danger for your life. Anyway you just keep arguing away.

Iwasfrozen

crannglas wrote: »

I do not know why you constantly trying to change subject to involve genuine asylum seekers. The facts remain, fake asylum seekers arrive claim asylum. When fail, appeal. On appeal are entitled to free housing rent allowance medical care education amongst free legal aid. They do not need success in asylum process cause get free everything while appealing. They fail because they are fake.
But because they are allowed keep appealing they are clogging up the system and blocking genuine ones. What happened for you is completely different. Unless you lie about where you are from and your name and claim you are in danger for your life. Anyway you just keep arguing away.

What amazes me is how these people manage to reach Ireland without passing through any other safe countries.

RobYourBuilder

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What amazes me is how these people manage to reach Ireland without passing through any other safe countries.

Cyprus rescued 339 boat people over the weekend. Only six claimed asylum. The rest wanted to claim asylum in other EU countries instead. They rescued a couple of hundred a week before that. They wanted to go to Italy instead as Italy gives them papers and accepts the vast majority that claim asylum. Look at Calais. Thousands camped up, just waiting to get to these islands and it's not for the weather. France couldn't be that bad!

crannglas

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What amazes me is how these people manage to reach Ireland without passing through any other safe countries.

I really have no care about how genuine people get here. I just don't believe majority of the genuine ones who need the help are getting here. Same as the aid money doesn't get to them. That's my opinion. All I ever hear is ungrateful greedy ones complaining about how bad they are treated. The genuine ones I have met, never complain. They say ofc they would like to setlle and get decision. But are very grateful and feel safe.

Uriel.

jank wrote: »

The problem with all this though it that it drives a type of short term reactive narrative into what the budget details. The other political parties will all say negative things about it anyway. Its all about me, me, me. Nothing about how we are going to run the country for the next 3,5 or even ten years. No vision or strategic planning. It has been reduced to pure populist auction politics and the sooner the budget circus goes away the better.

Take for example the recommendations of the fiscal advisory council. They were created after the crash to advise government on fiscal responsibility. They have all been ignored and the chairman of the council has hinted that he may resign in future if their recommendations are basically used as firelighters. Now if FG are the 'most' responsible party in Ireland in terms of financial prudence, can you imagine what havoc FF or Sinn Fein would wreck on the economy over the long run. Its a ****ing shambles tbh.

You're central point is spot on, no arguments from me on that one. But the budget day hype/circus/train(wreck) is not, in my view, the problem. Or at least is only a minor element within the problem.

The bigger issue is the entire political sphere in Ireland. FF wreck the country, FG/Lab try fix it (not without their own f**k ups) and IMO largely do a decent job of it, but by jebus they have to go now, so instead of doing the "right" thing, they try cement their position in Government for 2016. I can't blame them for that really. Perhaps if the electorate weren't so up their own as**s and weren't so fickle we might have less of a fiasco around budget time...perhaps.