Limerick DC VICTORIES!PLUS COSTS!!

Grizzly 45

Five restricted firearms appeals.Five appeals GRANTED. COSTS AWARDED!!
Costs of Appx 30 thousand euros against AGS Limerick Henry St division!
Possible Retro cost due in another case from May 2014.

Just in now after celebratory imbibing.:P
This is a much redacted report,as if I had to do the entire minatue of the arguements and evidence,you would be reading till tomrrow afternoon.it was a long day of 9 hours in court with a lot of technical details.]

Five cases were fought ,four centre fire handguns and one CF semi rifle.
These were up in front of a rather pendantic and difficult replacement judge[at the last minute] yet all were granted courtsey of an exellent legal team of mine and the NARGC solr William Egan.
The state fought two of these cases like Apaches with no holds barred onslaught that went into utter minatue of the applicants applications,good reasons and range membership,and type of firearms.
In short
Mr Egan responded in kind and we had an "exiting" four hours of utter microscopic detail examination of the possibility of liscensing a 9mm and a .22lr upper as seperate firearms one restricted and one unrestricted with a lower mag cap of five round s or both restricted.All in all it boiled down to grant for the 9mm and refer to the super for the .22 upper for a decision as it was being considerd by the cheif super.

Best was watching the nuke blast hitting the state when it was pointed out that there is now a SI of 2014 district court rules allowing costs to be awarded in the DC.These are the first five cases for this in the State under the new legislation and all have been successful.One case in May 2014 might be eligible for costs as well under this ruling too.

After the first 9mm CF case was fought and lost by the state,they withdrew the two others as this was going to be no hopers.They were going then to fight mine,but as it was late in the day and they only had the "looks like" arguement which was demolished before it got to the court room they prudently hoisted the white flag on that as well.

While not allowed as evidence,Mr Egan did a impressive job of demolishing the states arguements and also got onto the cheif Super as a pitbull would on a leg of roast beef.The CS was not a happy camper in, or after leaving the witness box after being grilled on how many liscenses for restricted firearms he had granted without problems of a court nature and if he belived people in Limerick to be a danger why hadnt he revoked liscenses instead,and plenty more along those lines.In short a lot of unpleasent questions were raised about the CS policy in dealing with these liscenses.

The new ballistics lad,wasn't too happy either after getting caught out in cross examination that he thought he knew better than the guidelines and the cheif comissioner and his direct superior officer.The devil is in the details.:D

BTW for you silencer folks.. Yes according to the Garda ballistics expert[the new guy] and according to my order of discovery of his report to the CS.

YES the EU noise reduction directives and hunting in areas where there are complaints of noise or livestock being scared into dangerous situations are perfectly reasonable reasons for aquiring a silencer.;)
Cant get that better from the Equines gob can you.

All in all a good [?] day,but one I feel could have been avoided by the state agents ,if they had just played straight and addressed these issues with rationale,non irrational fear of different kind of firearms and beliving that everyone will just lie down and take it because they are "the man"
Now ,it is a different ballgame ,as there is now a sanction against the AGS in the DC in monetary loss from their divisional budgets.:(
Its not "their" money..Its all OUR money[no matter how small an amount] that is being wasted on somthing that could be sorted out by rational thought and straight playing.
Belive I'll have another Jack Daniels.:D
Grizzly 45

patsat

Jesus thats huge, with costs being awarded he may think twice before refusing applications so easily.

German pointer

Well done on that great news

patsat

I wonder is there anyone in the Leader that would be willing to write about this?

€30,000 wasted on court cases against Law abiding citizens!

meathstevie

Grizzly, congratulations. Unfortunately it sets no binding precedent and again bad law and poor decission making can again and again and again cost a ball of money and time to some and all of us. And let's not forget valuable Garda money that could be spent on for example anti poaching patrols and some overtime to tackle serious crime rather than trying to defend poor judgement by some of the big brass.

Tackleberry.

Great news Grizz can't wait to meet the "New Guy" well done William Eagan and NARGC.
30 grand of all our hard working tax paying citizens cash wasted an this crap hope the gards have the licensing taken from them ASAP.

Varmint Shooter

Congrats to one & all. Hopefully this will be the watershed in firearms licencing we've been waiting for.

You guys are the new benchmark

knockon

A great result indeed. What a waste of money though. I have friends working out of the same division that can't even get a biro due to cuts in the budget. Fleet reduction and cuts in overtime.....and all that money pissed away yesterday. Well done Buddy. If anyone deserved it it is you.

deerhunter1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Five restricted firearms appeals.Five appeals GRANTED. COSTS AWARDED!!
Costs of Appx 30 thousand euros against AGS Limerick Henry St division!
Possible Retro cost due in another case from May 2014.

Just in now after celebratory imbibing.:P
This is a much redacted report,as if I had to do the entire minatue of the arguements and evidence,you would be reading till tomrrow afternoon.it was a long day of 9 hours in court with a lot of technical details.]

Five cases were fought ,four centre fire handguns and one CF semi rifle.
These were up in front of a rather pendantic and difficult replacement judge[at the last minute] yet all were granted courtsey of an exellent legal team of mine and the NARGC solr William Egan.
The state fought two of these cases like Apaches with no holds barred onslaught that went into utter minatue of the applicants applications,good reasons and range membership,and type of firearms.
In short
Mr Egan responded in kind and we had an "exiting" four hours of utter microscopic detail examination of the possibility of liscensing a 9mm and a .22lr upper as seperate firearms one restricted and one unrestricted with a lower mag cap of five round s or both restricted.All in all it boiled down to grant for the 9mm and refer to the super for the .22 upper for a decision as it was being considerd by the cheif super.

Best was watching the nuke blast hitting the state when it was pointed out that there is now a SI of 2014 district court rules allowing costs to be awarded in the DC.These are the first five cases for this in the State under the new legislation and all have been successful.One case in May 2014 might be eligible for costs as well under this ruling too.

After the first 9mm CF case was fought and lost by the state,they withdrew the two others as this was going to be no hopers.They were going then to fight mine,but as it was late in the day and they only had the "looks like" arguement which was demolished before it got to the court room they prudently hoisted the white flag on that as well.

While not allowed as evidence,Mr Egan did a impressive job of demolishing the states arguements and also got onto the cheif Super as a pitbull would on a leg of roast beef.The CS was not a happy camper in, or after leaving the witness box after being grilled on how many liscenses for restricted firearms he had granted without problems of a court nature and if he belived people in Limerick to be a danger why hadnt he revoked liscenses instead,and plenty more along those lines.In short a lot of unpleasent questions were raised about the CS policy in dealing with these liscenses.

The new ballistics lad,wasn't too happy either after getting caught out in cross examination that he thought he knew better than the guidelines and the cheif comissioner and his direct superior officer.The devil is in the details.:D

BTW for you silencer folks.. Yes according to the Garda ballistics expert[the new guy] and according to my order of discovery of his report to the CS.

YES the EU noise reduction directives and hunting in areas where there are complaints of noise or livestock being scared into dangerous situations are perfectly reasonable reasons for aquiring a silencer.;)
Cant get that better from the Equines gob can you.

All in all a good [?] day,but one I feel could have been avoided by the state agents ,if they had just played straight and addressed these issues with rationale,non irrational fear of different kind of firearms and beliving that everyone will just lie down and take it because they are "the man"
Now ,it is a different ballgame ,as there is now a sanction against the AGS in the DC in monetary loss from their divisional budgets.:(
Its not "their" money..Its all OUR money[no matter how small an amount] that is being wasted on somthing that could be sorted out by rational thought and straight playing.
Belive I'll have another Jack Daniels.:D
Grizzly 45

Congrats

dc99

I am crying with happyness...litterly.

I have tears in my eyes with the waste of time that I could have used for training in target shooting.
I got my pistol (firat original) licence within 3 months of application. and the reason why I've been so quite for the last while is that I have put in for a pistol SUBSITUTION last Jan. thats supposed to take 14 days - for a pistol that is listed on the commis. approved list (hammerli xesse) 10 months later... still waiting due to a refusal for the same firearm to anothere person.....

By the way - Im not a drug dealer. and I am aquiring the firearm through a registered dealer.....just in case someone is listening (dept of whoever....)....................In fact I have paid 500 euro deposit for the pistol and the poor fecker in Germany (the country that own's us...but thats a different story) has to house the gun, until my fantastic country can untangle its stupid mind regarding the law....
Signed
Angry!

Witcher

dc99 wrote: »

I have put in for a pistol SUBSITUTION last Jan. thats supposed to take 14 days - for a pistol that is listed on the commis. approved list (hammerli xesse) 10 months later... still waiting due to a refusal for the same firearm to anothere peraon.....

I applied for a pistol last September and there's no sign of it. Met my super 6 months ago to discuss it and he assured me he'd let me know either way within 2 weeks but I never heard.

He said there was pressure from above on pistols atm, I'm inclined to believe it's not just his decision because others I know got pistols in this district no problem back a while ago and he's always been fair with my other applications.

Had to call the super's secretary the other week about a renewal and while I was on the phone I just asked about it but there was no news. I've given up tbh, wouldn't even have enquired only I was on the phone anyway.

Grizzly 45

Hi all,
Sorry for the late reply,somwhat worse for wear this AM,:p and was up at the Midlanda shoot today.Where I was welcomed to a "red carpet" treatment by the lads of the Bulls eye club.[They almost had comely maidens walking in my fore scattering spent 9mm brass:D]
Anyways,folks please. I don't want to take credit for this,as I did nothing that anyone else would have done,as well as the others who did hire the legal team and drew their personal lines in the sand and said "enough".
Two of them were waiting THREE years for decisions on this carry on!!
If anyone deserves credit here ,its ALL of us in the Irish shooting community.We have had to put up with this for so long for little or no logical reasons.Well, hopefully this will change things for the better.

Its not often I have good things to say about politicos and especially those dealing with gun laws,but I do think Mr Alan Shatter TD does deserve some thanks ,whether by accident,design or malice that he signed this into law last Feb when he was justice minister.This has been about the best thing in Irish shooting since....Er......welll.....Hmmm.....
So thanks from me on that one Mr Shatter..[But I'm not voting for your party,EVER again. ]

Again an unfortunate situation when even the last judge said basically "would you Gaurds and shooters sit down and talk this out,rather than go to court all the time?"Thing is for a dialouge to ensue both parties have to listen to each other and not go "Talk all you want I have the power so whatever you say,my mind is already made up!"

Does it set a precedent? Hopefully,as this is now the law of the land and a SI
However like all DC cases it is up to the judge to award costs.But like most things here in our little country it is the unspoken word that says most.The legal folks dont really like going against their fellow legal eagles decisions.
Indeed,what that money could have done for the men and women in AGS on the street is tragic.A new squad car,a rookies wages,etc. It just re enforces my belif ,no such thing as bad men,just rotten officers in charge.

Grizzly 45

patsat wrote: »

I wonder is there anyone in the Leader that would be willing to write about this?

€30,000 wasted on court cases against Law abiding citizens!

Odd odd should mention that Pat.When the last cases for the semi rifles were in court in Limerick ,the press bench was full,but once the judge ruled it was not in the public intrest and a security risk to have details mentioned by accident or design on who owns what or where,they have cleared off on these cases,and they have moved the sittings up to the family court area,where you dont have to be seen or be sitting with the local "clients and customers" awaiting justice. So I doubt the Leader or the "Pest" would touch this with a 20 foot pole.

k31

Congratulations . Hopefully this new SI which allows the District Court to award costs might stop AGS from playing silly buggers but I wouldent like to bet on it. They don't care about wasting tax payers money. Enjoy your shooting.

dc99

Hi,
I disagree with k31. I believe that this will have a hugh affect on the AGS decisions.
What most people don't realise is that the AGS is run like a buisness, money is king. the main problem is that most Supt. have no clue about fire-arms (the legisation etc) so have up to now said "I'll leave let the courts take the responsibility and decision on issuing the license..."
The AGS management are very responsible to the money budget.....everything has to be accounted for.
Its funny to say it, but one murder can screw up the districts budget for the rest of the year. It was only last year or so that squad cars were not being replaced.
Also what we weren't fully realising was that this stuff was day to day and routine stuff for Supt's to deal with (going to Court/defending positions in court. It was NOT PERSONAL to them. they didn't care or maybe appriciate(?) to the degree it affected us (as applicants)
Now that (it seems????) a supt is directly affected by financial budgeting (losing a case in court / costs and we all know the win / lose ratio - AGS almost zero??? ). they might be a significently more careful in their decisions and actually LOOK and be GUIDED by the legislation and commissioners guidelines.
I think it will b a simple case of costs moving forward - cheaper to educate the existing AGS structure on licencing (simple because its NOT compliccaed - every one of us as shooters have a reasonable detailed understanding of the legislation....or Change the system....i.e. let the AGS vet us for charecter and let a seperate department do the paper work on issuing the licence etc. (oh please do this one....).

LB6

Well done Griz

Grizzly 45

dc99 wrote: »

Hi,

I think it will b a simple case of costs moving forward - cheaper to educate the existing AGS structure on licencing (simple because its NOT compliccaed - every one of us as shooters have a reasonable detailed understanding of the legislation....or Change the system....i.e. let the AGS vet us for charecter and let a seperate department do the paper work on issuing the licence etc. (oh please do this one....).

Or simply ,move it away from the Gaurds altogether bar a backround check on whether you are naughty or nice,and make this a civillian administration affair like most European countries?
The AGS have shown that clearly they are incapable of dealing with this matter fairly,reasonbably,and transparently in any shape or form,and suffer from some deep seated phobia of handguns and centre fire rifles.Whether from paranoia of us all rising and turning our guns on them and the State,of which they are the States protectors and arm.Or whether it is just too much Hollywood influencing them I don't know.But like many other things that emerged about the force this year and will continue to do so,it is becoming clear that the AGS upper echelons are not fit for purpose anymore and are now political rather than a neutral police force on the ground.

lakesider

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Or simply ,move it away from the Gaurds altogether bar a backround check on whether you are naughty or nice,and make this a civillian administration affair like most European countries?
The AGS have shown that clearly they are incapable of dealing with this matter fairly,reasonbably,and transparently in any shape or form,and suffer from some deep seated phobia of handguns and centre fire rifles.Whether from paranoia of us all rising and turning our guns on them and the State,of which they are the States protectors and arm.Or whether it is just too much Hollywood influencing them I don't know.But like many other things that emerged about the force this year and will continue to do so,it is becoming clear that the AGS upper echelons are not fit for purpose anymore and are now political rather than a neutral police force on the ground.

First off well done on your victory but ive a question for ye, whats the chances that the Justice minister will just move the goalposts now after this and write into law what the AGS wants after this?

2011

First of all I would like to congratulate Grizzly and the others on their victory.
It is great to see common sense prevailing.

dc99 wrote: »

Hi,
I disagree with k31. I believe that this will have a hugh affect on the AGS decisions.
What most people don't realise is that the AGS is run like a buisness, money is king.

For 2014 the Garda budget was €1.24 billion.
Source.
So the "massive costs" of €31,000 represents <0.03% of their budget.

My point being that I don't think they will loose any sleep over the financial cost.
A few hours of strategically placed speed traps will recover this cost quite quickly.

It is more the inconvenience and embarrassment that would upset Chief Superintendents.
However they might just feel that enough of these cases may lead to a change in the law resulting in all pistols, "military style" and "idontlikethelookofthat" firearms being banned.

Grizzly 45

lakesider wrote: »

First off well done on your victory but ive a question for ye, whats the chances that the Justice minister will just move the goalposts now after this and write into law what the AGS wants after this?

Think she has other more important things on her mind,and TBH the amount of firearms involved are 1% of the entire firearms pouplation.
Second,from those in the better know."The stroke of a pen" is the very last step in a long and complex beuracratic process of having to revamp the entire legislation on firearms.Something that would keep the DOJ awake all year ,and it is considerd as it stands the law a done deal by the DOJ.Its apprently also why our friend in ballistics is under investigation by GSOC as he had somthing to do with the furore of end 2013/14.So its not that simple,it does involve alot of problems with compensation under EU law[as I always thought,and was confirmed in a breif for the HC,regarding the 10 shot mags in .22 pistols]
So ,to answer this ,not really..

Grizzly 45

2011 wrote: »

First of all I would like to congratulate Grizzly and the others on their victory.
It is great to see common sense prevailing.



For 2014 the Garda budget was €1.24 billion.
Source.
So the "massive costs" of €31,000 represents <0.03% of their budget.

My point being that I don't think they will loose any sleep over the financial cost.
A few hours of strategically placed speed traps will recover this cost quite quickly.

It is more the inconvenience and embarrassment that would upset Chief Superintendents.
However they might just feel that enough of these cases may lead to a change in the law resulting in all pistols, "military style" and "idontlikethelookofthat" firearms being banned.

Then they will have to pay market value compensation for the firearms as is now mandated by EU law!!!Thats European market value..Not makey up Irish values too.
The 30 K might be a miniscule amount.But not in the division sense.Thats some serious overtime wasted,or one new gardas wages or a squad car gone.The cheif has to account for it no matter what,and chucking it down the road on firearms cases where he was told by a court in my case THREE TIMES to grant it doesnt look like a prudent man in charge actions.It looks more like a vendetta against several of the most law abiding people in his division.And it was mentioned in open court ,as to how his policy was about liscensing in Limerick of firearms?Plenty more worm cans to be opened if they want to go there nationwide.It might be just better to look at these liscenses objectively,see are the boxes ticked ,are the people in good standing,have proper security,and grant them and stop thinking we are all simpletons and morons who cant be entrusted with these items and realise our responsibility and take it seriously our possesion of deadly items.
BTW this "military style" and "looks like" is so wobbly in a judicaland legal sense and has been shot down here about six times in the Limerick DC and once aSFIK in the HC,it is laughable that any Super or Cheif could object anymore.Look it up in the legislation and the guide lines and anyone can see the glaring hole in the law you can drive 4 artics thru it 4 abreast.

Sparks

2011 wrote: »

For 2014 the Garda budget was €1.24 billion.
Source.
So the "massive costs" of €31,000 represents <0.03% of their budget.

Math aside, DC costs were being granted up until they were challenged after the 168 HC cases mess; Grizzly's case is the first to finish after the DC court rules were changed to allow costs again; so it was only a relatively short period of time where costs would not be granted even in the event of a win. I find it hard to see the return of costs being awarded in the event of a win for the shooter being enough to see a sea change in licencing decision attitudes from the few "problem" Supers out there.

Far more impact from the retirement of the Ballistics section's head I would have thought...

2011

Grizzly I broadly agree with you last post. I am just trying to put the costs in perspective. I am not trying to belittle your victory but be under no illusion making firearms legislation even more restrictive is not an impossible task.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

BTW this "military style" and "looks like" is so wobbly in a judicaland legal sense and has been shot down here about six times in the Limerick DC and once aSFIK in the HC,it is laughable that any Super or Cheif could object anymore.Look it up in the legislation and the guide lines and anyone can see the glaring hole in the law you can drive 4 artics thru it 4 abreast.

Yeah, and we've been saying that since it was drafted; but all it takes is one bad decision from one judge who doesn't think private firearms ownership is a good thing (remember the Charleton judgement!) and that ridiculous bit of nonsense would suddenly gain a lot of weight and we'd be hosed (because how the hell do you decide if something looks like something else, let alone judge if it's over some arbitary threshold of looks-like-ness?)

juice1304

Well done grizzly. :pac::pac::D:cool:
Das finde ich toll!!! Viel spaß.:)

Grizzly 45

Danke Juice.

Yeah, and we've been saying that since it was drafted; but all it takes is one bad decision from one judge who doesn't think private firearms ownership is a good thing (remember the Charleton judgement!) and that ridiculous bit of nonsense would suddenly gain a lot of weight and we'd be hosed (because how the hell do you decide if something looks like something else, let alone judge if it's over some arbitary threshold of looks-like-ness?)

The state has been here before with a case in the 1980s of what does a "Tractor" look like?It went to the HC ASFIK,and the arguement is simply ,if you want to describe an article in law ,it has to be described properly,so there can be no doubt as to what it is you are trying to ban or restrict..As the judge said on Friday in one case summation."I have to deal in facts ,not wishful thinking on the States behalf."

r

izzly I broadly agree with you last post. I am just trying to put the costs in perspective. I am not trying to belittle your victory but be under no illusion making firearms legislation even more restrictive is not an impossible task.

Indeed it isnt..But it is not something undertaken overnight and with a daily more peeved off pouplation,still more or less under financial occupation by Frankfurt, about broken promises and another bashing in a local by election,not to mind major problems galore of a MUCH serious nature in your police force and justice dept,as well as starting to prep for a general election,is it something they want to go and concentrate on to deal with an utter minor problem of under est 50 firearms and 460 hand guns as a top pirority.
Especially after the ruckus at the beginning of the year by the shooting organisations and when certain people in the AGS were apprently telling the Attorney General one story and the DOJ another trying to push that ban thru,and were caught out?
Snoozing canines and all that..... Best advice for both sides at the moment.

We can engage in IF and Whataboutery again here,and end up chasing our own tails again putting ourselves in awful states of worry.. Lets see how they deal with this now once the gates are open and the HC cases come thru on the [1] Mag issues in the .22 pistols,and [2] The RETROACTIVE costs for all the previous cases pre the amended 2014 DC legislation!!! Those are many,and alot costlier than 30 k.:p
There is a lot of truth in the saying the price of liberty is eternal vigilance.
In our case it should be our watch word,we have to keep our eyes on the ball always in relation to what they are up to legal wise.But that doesnt mean we should belive every rumour and scuttlebutt we hear either.Wait until it appears on the radar,then deal with it as a threat or not.And most importantly..Go shooting alot more.Thats the whole point here of fighting for your guns.:)

In the 10 or 12 years I've been posting here,I am impressed on how much, belive it or not the Irish shooting community,despite its many differences and acrimony of its organisations,the common man and woman members have had a sea change in attitudes of the 1980's defeatism to a minority group in Ireland that has learned to punch well above its weight class both legally and politically and not to mind in achiving so much international recognition in the various disiplines while being virtually ignored at home
.
I am so very proud of you all and what we have achived together and to call myself an Irish[German American:D] gun owner and shooting enthaustist.
Grizzly45

Sparks

Um, Grizz, retroactive costs?
Since when does law work retroactively?


BTW -- and you most definitely don't need to answer this if you don't want to, most wouldn't -- how much did your case cost after all was said and done and the costs were paid and so on?

Grizzly 45

Doubtless not the correct legal terminology,but thats the gist of the complaint pending in the HC.
PM on the second

Sparks

I guess you can complain about almost anything in court, but that's a heck of an uphill push to get retroactive compensation in this country, especially given the other groups that have been turned down...

yubabill1

Congrats, Griz.
While not allowed as precedent, your action will make life a lot easier for other applicants.

Grizzly45 wrote:

"In the 10 or 12 years I've been posting here,I am impressed on how much, belive it or not the Irish shooting community,despite its many differences and acrimony of its organisations,the common man and woman members have had a sea change in attitudes of the 1980's defeatism to a minority group in Ireland that has learned to punch well above its weight class"

Jeez - the '80's really were a dark era for shooters here: A Garda had to be restrained from assaulting me during one licence application for a 12 gauge (I simply took to enquiring about the licence application every Friday once six months had elapsed) and my mail seemed to be interfered with for about a year following a letter of support I sent to a well-known shooting campaigner. Bet I wasn't the only one, either.....but they were different times.

Great to see common sense win for once.

Grizzly 45

UPDATE.
Post arrived this AM with my grant notice letter.:D:D
That's the fastest one Iv'e ever got in two working days!!:D
Off to the post office now.