New changes to the testing of vintage Cars/Trucks?

whisky_galore

Kenny Logins wrote: »

Probably not.

What people rate as a 'classic' changes with every generation.
Vintage rallies in the 80s had a lot more 30's and 40's cars and not a Fiesta or Escort to be seen...except in the car park.:pac:

Kenny Logins

whisky_galore wrote: »

What people rate as a 'classic' changes with every generation.
Vintage rallies in the 80s had a lot more 30's and 40's cars and not a Fiesta or Escort to be seen...except in the car park.:pac:

The point was that modern cars more reliant on electronics and have many parts that simply aren't serviceable, and this will lead to them being scrapped when they reach the point of uneconomical repair, long before classic status in tax/insurance terms. (I think).

YouThere

Going slightly off topic - but regarding the emissions thing:
I agree with "They only test vehicles to the standards in place when they were new, that has always been the case."

But I wonder if the men in suits could potentially "backdate" some future rules?

Remembering my experience with UK MOT in 1996 - following restoration of 1950 car.
Test showed the car to be mechanically sound.
But it got stuck on two points:
1/ the windscreen washer policy in UK was a mandatory retrofit - if the car didn't have hinged screen.
2/ the tail-light reflectors should exceed a given surface area - mine were glass and offered no reflective surface.
We poured over old books/regulations, but there was no avoiding either rule.

In hindsight, you see those Tudor retrofit washer units a lot in UK - so I guess they existed for a reason.

Back to my tongue-in-cheek question - what's to stop the suits introducing "retrospective" rules for whatever takes their fancy?

Means Of Escape

Kenny Logins wrote: »

The point was that modern cars more reliant on electronics and have many parts that simply aren't serviceable, and this will lead to them being scrapped when they reach the point of uneconomical repair, long before classic status in tax/insurance terms. (I think).

Agree . Take for example the Aston Martin Lagonda of the 80s
The whizz electronics that they put into the car to be futuristic is the very reason why most people wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.
Same will be the case with most modern cars in 30 years time as component repair or replacement will kill them off .

bugsntinas

hopefully I won't be stuffed then as I love driving my Cortina most days but I doubt it'll meet the emissions of modern cars.i really don't want to drive some plastic box on wheels.

Dades

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Agree . Take for example the Aston Martin Lagonda of the 80s
The whizz electronics that they put into the car to be futuristic is the very reason why most people wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.
Same will be the case with most modern cars in 30 years time as component repair or replacement will kill them off .

Inclined to agree that the way cars have been mass produced built for the last 10+ years will mean not many will make classic status.

Today you can't even pass an NCT with a warning light on your dash. Add 20 years and every time you turn the key will be a lottery to see what lights up.

alastair

Dades wrote: »

Inclined to agree that the way cars have been mass produced built for the last 10+ years will mean not many will make classic status.

Today you can't even pass an NCT with a warning light on your dash. Add 20 years and every time you turn the key will be a lottery to see what lights up.

I used to think the heavy reliance on electronic monitoring and maintainence would make for serious difficulty in carrying forward modern cars into classic old age. I'm not so sure any more. DIY electronic hobbyists, and cheap/compact components like arduinos etc are changing the landscape completely, making the replacement of dead/unobtainable electronic management much more of a realistic prospect. Think megasquirt, but applied to any auto management application. Built-in structural obsolescence might be a greater hurdle, but has that really changed much since the 70's?

digger58

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Golden years for classic car status probably ended mid 90s
Can't see modern cars with plastic dashboards , electronic gizmos ,Eco Diesel engines and bland features ever hitting classic status overall
Exceptions would be m3 and m5 bmws of the 00s and a few other marques but never as many as the calibre of collectible cars of the 70s 80s and early 90s when petrol and style were king.
VW Corrado g60,Lancia integrale etc so there would be a reduction rather than an increase in cars falling under classic status in the future.
They don't make them like they used to .

Can't agree that only a couple of BMW's will be future classics, not too many on them on the classic circuit at the moment! Don't forget that what we today see as classics were what our parents drove and probably our earliest memories of cars, same will apply in years to come and there are a lot more than BMW's on the road. I believe the MX5 will be a future classic, what do others think?

Means Of Escape

digger58 wrote: »

Can't agree that only a couple of BMW's will be future classics, not too many on them on the classic circuit at the moment! Don't forget that what we today see as classics were what our parents drove and probably our earliest memories of cars, same will apply in years to come and there are a lot more than BMW's on the road. I believe the MX5 will be a future classic, what do others think?

Modern Porsches and Mercs etc will also become collectible in years to come as they will command a premium price and the buyer will have the money to pay for any upgrades electrical or otherwise
Other models as they are mass produced , full of technology and not appealing aesthetically will not become classics.eg Peugeot 406 vs Peugeot 505gti . Ford Probe or Cougar vs ford capri of any cc size etc
Diesels are the majority .
Therefore the likelyhood of present cars becoming as desirable in future compared to the golden era of cars even back to the 20s won't be as high regardless of production numbers esp cars within a reasonable price for the regular enthusiast .
However no accounting for taste.

Option 4

digger58

Have owned a Porsche and a Mercedes, can't say either were anything to write home about style wise, your opinion is obviously heavily influenced by German design, who knows what will be a future classic, usually the more popular a car was the more that appear on the classic scene. Having said that the Passat has been popular for years but I can't see it being a future classic, my Merc was a 190, no classic there and the Porsche was a single cylinder tractor, now that's a classic! New Beetle? maybe but will never have the following of the original much the same as all the retro styles, (Mini, Fiat 500, etc), then again beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

w124man

Anyone see this in DD this evening .....

RSA / NCT information evening , SAVE OUR CLASSICS !
Kilmurry Lodge Hotel , Limerick .
8pm Tuesday 28th October .
All Welcome.
FREE
The government are considering introducing a compulsory NCT for ALL post 1960 vintage / historic vehicles
We want to fight this.
You have until NOVEMBER 14th 2014 to fill out the RSA NCT consultation response form.
There will be a slide presentation with suggested responses for this form.
We will help you fill out your response form & submit / post it to the RSA for you
Remember EVERY form counts !

---

Limerick Classic & Vintage Car Club












I still dont understand why anyone would want to fight this .....

corktina

A basic safety check is surely a good idea. Brakes lights steering and tyres, like the old (1960s) days.....in the UK)

Means Of Escape

corktina wrote: »

A basic safety check is surely a good idea. Brakes lights steering and tyres, like the old (1960s) days.....in the UK)

Anyone who owns a classic/vintage can do that themselves .

corktina

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Anyone who owns a classic/vintage can do that themselves .

Yes, but the trouble is they don't. I'm sure we've all seen wrecks at shows and some people use them as dailies without the slightest idea how to care for them

Redrocket

I dont think anyone can do this, people's thinking of what is safe and what is not will always differ. Like how do you know a tyre is safe? Or where is the line drawn for a faulty brake pipe?

Will everyone stick their car on a lift and check through a list of things to ensure it is safe, and if a problem occurs how can they prove when they last checked to see if the car was safe?

Is the NCT really THAT bad? Some people are making it sound like its gonna wipe out the classic car scene, but it's not, its gonna take the chancers who are too cheap to ensure their classic is roadworthy off the road.



Ps. I got my 74 mk2 escort tested 2 weeks ago here in Munich, no advisories, everything perfect, I'm happy to know it passed.

Means Of Escape

Redrocket wrote: »

I dont think anyone can do this, people's thinking of what is safe and what is not will always differ. Like how do you know a tyre is safe? Or where is the line drawn for a faulty brake pipe?

Will everyone stick their car on a lift and check through a list of things to ensure it is safe, and if a problem occurs how can they prove when they last checked to see if the car was safe?

Is the NCT really THAT bad? Some people are making it sound like its gonna wipe out the classic car scene, but it's not, its gonna take the chancers who are too cheap to ensure their classic is roadworthy off the road.



Ps. I got my 74 mk2 escort tested 2 weeks ago here in Munich, no advisories, everything perfect, I'm happy to know it passed.

It's only by the grace of God that all these "chancers" and "tight" classic car owners haven't caused a major traffic collision?
Again your perfect escort could be wrapped around a pole by a monkey driver.

Means Of Escape

corktina wrote: »

Yes, but the trouble is they don't. I'm sure we've all seen wrecks at shows and some people use them as dailies without the slightest idea how to care for them

I would argue that most of those "wrecks" that you call them are maintained to a good standard and driven by experienced drivers who have a lot of miles under their belts and not dim enough to drive a car on the road that will have them in the ditch hence the low if zero accidents with them involved.


As far as I can see only the anorak brigade are in favour of this proposal

type85

From the RSA
“Our policy, to save lives and prevent injuries by reducing the number and severity of collisions on the road”
This is all about risk risk risk, surely the experts in risk analysis the Insurance companies are the best people ask the opinion of? They make 100’s of millions a year from policy fees yet if you ask anybody: the cost of a policy for a classic vehicle is the lowest of any? Why? It MUST be because the experts feel the classic car is SAFER to be in or around than any other!!! That implies to me that Classics are not dangerous.

When europe tell us to pay our bill and cut our wages and increase taxes we're good boys and do, and now when europe tells us we shouldn't test older car we decide not to listen to them?????........hmmmmmmmmm

The rolling 30 year exemption is the one to have.

w124man

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Anyone who owns a classic/vintage can do that themselves .

Yeah ....right!

Means Of Escape

w124man wrote: »

Yeah ....right!

Go pay the nct centre to do it for you then if you can't and see what else they will stick you for .

turbocab

type85 wrote: »

From the RSA
“Our policy, to save lives and prevent injuries by reducing the number and severity of collisions on the road”
This is all about risk risk risk, surely the experts in risk analysis the Insurance companies are the best people ask the opinion of? They make 100’s of millions a year from policy fees yet if you ask anybody: the cost of a policy for a classic vehicle is the lowest of any? Why? It MUST be because the experts feel the classic car is SAFER to be in or around than any other!!! That implies to me that Classics are not dangerous.

When europe tell us to pay our bill and cut our wages and increase taxes we're good boys and do, and now when europe tells us we shouldn't test older car we decide not to listen to them?????........hmmmmmmmmm

The rolling 30 year exemption is the one to have.

well said our government tells us to pay water and property charges like the rest of europe, but we get the extra taxes like vrt that they dont have, and now this,the most anti motorist country in Europe

corktina

Means Of Escape wrote: »

I would argue that most of those "wrecks" that you call them are maintained to a good standard and driven by experienced drivers who have a lot of miles under their belts and not dim enough to drive a car on the road that will have them in the ditch hence the low if zero accidents with them involved.


As far as I can see only the anorak brigade are in favour of this proposal

Most yet, but it only takes one rogue to kill someone (to the detriment of the whole hobby)

Anorak Brigade? what are you talking about?

Means Of Escape

corktina wrote: »

Most yet, but it only takes one rogue to kill someone (to the detriment of the whole hobby)

Anorak Brigade? what are you talking about?

Like TT racing fatalities has killed off that sport.
No fatalities in the vintage/ classic scene and that is a more pedestrian hobby.

corktina

better tell this lot then

http://www.iomttbreaks.com/packages-and-tickets/isle-of-man-tt-2015

Means Of Escape

corktina wrote: »

better tell this lot then

http://www.iomttbreaks.com/packages-and-tickets/isle-of-man-tt-2015

That's my point TT fatalities hasn't killed off the sport
A possible classic car fatality if it ever happens won't be to the detriment of our hobby as you claim

hi5

http://www.vda.de/en/publikationen/publikationen_downloads/detail.php?id=1182

Report from Germany 2013

Page 214 of the download...

Accident Statistics for Historical Vehicles
Reducing traffic accidents is a major objective of European transport policy. It is also
the goal of the “European Road Safety Action Program,” which aims to cut in half
the number of fatalities and injuries due to traffic accidents by 2020. Both active
and passive technical safety measures play a key role in the program. This includes
systems such as intelligent seatbelts, fatigue alerts and daytime running lights. The
road safety program proposes to retrofit older vehicles with more recent technical
features. This is not feasible in the case of historical vehicles. It is often alleged that
they are a significant hazard to public road safety due to the outdated condition of
their technical systems.
To assess this prejudice, the VDA commissioned a study from the well-respected
accident research group at the University of Dresden to look into the involvement of
historical vehicles in accidents. Based on historical data maintained by the Federal
Motor Transport Authority and official accident statistics (DESTATIS), all accidents in
2010 and 2011 involving passenger vehicles in Germany were assessed. The results of
the analysis can be summarized as follows:
• Based on their service life, historical vehicles are eight times less likely to be
involved in accidents causing injury than other passenger vehicles.
• Like new vehicles, historical vehicles are less likely to be the main cause of
accidents.
• The technical shortcomings of historical vehicles are cited even less often as the
cause of accidents than is the case for new vehicles.
• When they do cause accidents (involving personal injury), drivers of historical
vehicles tend to make the same mistakes as those driving other passenger vehicles.
The reasons for historical vehicles’ good track record in the statistics can likely be
traced to the fact that they are not driven as far (annual kilometers driven) or as often;
they are driven more defensively; and the fact that they tend to be used only in certain
conditions (less driving in winter, poor weather and at night).

corktina

Means Of Escape wrote: »

That's my point TT fatalities hasn't killed off the sport
A possible classic car fatality if it ever happens won't be to the detriment of our hobby as you claim

you said it had killed it off?

In any case that's a sport and fatalities are part and parcel of it....you can't compare that to an innocent passer by getting killed by something falling off a dodgy classic.

Just to point out, this summer a gent was killed in a Mk1 Cortina on the Welsh border and a lady killed in a an Anglia on the M6 in the UK.

digger58

I'm still waiting for the RSA to supply me with stats about ages of vehicles involved in collisions and more importantly numbers of classics involved in accidents where a vehicle defect was the cause! I doubt I will have it before the deadline date. The insurance companies have lots of actuaries working to juggle their figures and assess the risk invovled, they have deemed classics to be a very low risk hence the low premiums. QED really, I don't object to a rolling 30 year at all but what will the period of test validity be, a minimum of 2 years I would suggest, what do you think?

Means Of Escape

corktina wrote: »

you said it had killed it off?

In any case that's a sport and fatalities are part and parcel of it....you can't compare that to an innocent passer by getting killed by something falling off a dodgy classic.

Just to point out, this summer a gent was killed in a Mk1 Cortina on the Welsh border and a lady killed in a an Anglia on the M6 in the UK.

Sarcasm

digger58

The vast majority of traffic collisions are caused by the driver, In the two examples, Mk1 Cortina/Anglia, were they caused by vehicle defects? In 30 years investigating road traffic collisions, 4 as a forensic collision investigator, I only recall 1 caused by a vehicle defect and that was a commercial involved in a trivial material damage incident.

The Big Red Fella

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Sarcasm

I had a friend killed in a early celica not his fault just a foreign clown on the wrong side of the road maby the rsa should be lookin at banning left hand drive cars in this country as they are dangerous ?

digger58

Oh yeah, that's a brilliant idea isn't it!!!! Then we won't be allowed on mainland Europe either. Don't give them any more barmy ideas like that or we might all regret it.

mattroche

Its not the L.H.D. cars is the problem, but the people driving them!

Silvera

mattroche wrote: »

Its not the L.H.D. cars is the problem, but the people driving them!

Exactly.

More RSA warning signs (re foreign drivers) at ports, airports etc wouldnt go astray!

Sam Russell

The problem of driving on the 'wrong' side, is not leaving the port, it is the following morning, driving out of the hotel onto an empty road and just heading down the road as you always do - oops forgot I am on the wrong side.

The only way is to put a yellow sticker on the dash to remind yourself.

The rest of the world should change over to drive on the left to solve this problem!

Cleveland Hot Pocket

Sam Russell wrote: »

The problem of driving on the 'wrong' side, is not leaving the port, it is the following morning, driving out of the hotel onto an empty road and just heading down the road as you always do - oops forgot I am on the wrong side.

The only way is to put a yellow sticker on the dash to remind yourself.

The rest of the world should change over to drive on the left to solve this problem!

Or logically, we should change to drive on the right.
Most of the driving world apart from the UK and AUS does now anyway.

corktina

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Or logically, we should change to drive on the right.
Most of the driving world apart from the UK and AUS does now anyway.

India? 1.2 billion people.....mind you they pretty much drive wherever they can anyway

Cleveland Hot Pocket

corktina wrote: »

India? 1.2 billion people.....mind you they pretty much drive wherever they can anyway

Ok, UK and its former dominions.:p

Sam Russell

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Ok, UK and its former dominions.:p

Japan?

Sam Russell

Cleveland Hot Pocket wrote: »

Or logically, we should change to drive on the right.
Most of the driving world apart from the UK and AUS does now anyway.

Note to self: Do not make jokes unless there is a

corktina

Sam Russell wrote: »

Japan?

caught by the bollix:D

mgbgt1978

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-_and_left-hand_traffic#Left-hand_traffic

....75 jurisdictions where they drive on the left. 161 on the right.
Wasn't it Sweden (or Denmark) that changed from left to right overnight back in the 60's ?

Sam Russell

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-_and_left-hand_traffic#Left-hand_traffic

....75 jurisdictions where they drive on the left. 161 on the right.
Wasn't it Sweden (or Denmark) that changed from left to right overnight back in the 60's ?

It was not overnight as such. There was a period of a day ot two when no vehicles were on the road, and then only bus and commercial, and eventually everyone else.

Sweden had a significant population of LHD vehicles prior to switch over, and so switch over was not so onerous. They built the motorways after that.

If we had done it on accession to the EEC in 1972, it would have been possible, but now we have built all the motorways and just to change the signage would be huge, not to mention the requirement to realign some of the junctions. Then we have the vehicles that need to be changed over, scrapped, or exported to UK or Africa.

Poland do not allow RHD vehicles to be registered (iirc).

Kenny Logins

What was this thread about anyway..?

mgbgt1978

Sam Russell wrote: »

Poland do not allow RHD vehicles to be registered (iirc).

Cinio has said that they have been forced to change this, according to one of his recent posts on the regular motors forum.
There was a thread there a year or two ago about a guy selling a 90's Celica and had a lot of interest from a Polish buyer. The seller thought it was a scam, but apparently it worked out cheaper for the buyer to purchase it here, bring it home, and convert to LHD .

Means Of Escape

If the RSA are allowed to get this thing through then the NCT will change the requirements to pass on a whim.
I object to the introduction of a test on these vehicles having no basis for its existence.
As requirements change so does the amount of money in your pocket for what is for most of us a hobby.
The fuel costs to run the cars is high enough
The motor tax on classic vehicles should be in a sliding scale of 10 per cent per annum for any car over 20 years regardless of cc
Motor tax has killed off all the fine high cc cars that were and are in the country making them valueless
This is a money spinning exercise and not a safety issue

It's the monkey driver not the car .

swarlb

Means Of Escape wrote: »

If the RSA are allowed to get this thing through then the NCT will change the requirements to pass on a whim.
I object to the introduction of a test on these vehicles having no basis for its existence.
As requirements change so does the amount of money in your pocket for what is for most of us a hobby.
The fuel costs to run the cars is high enough
The motor tax on classic vehicles should be in a sliding scale of 10 per cent per annum for any car over 20 years regardless of cc
Motor tax has killed off all the fine high cc cars that were and are in the country making them valueless
This is a money spinning exercise and not a safety issue

It's the monkey driver not the car .

Just a question, if road tax for example was 56 Euro a year on lets say a 1998 XJ Sport, or a 2000 CL500, would there suddenly be more of these appearing on the roads, would people start importing them and replacing the fleet of 'euroboxes'. Would familyman with a Zafira, be wafting around happily paying for the running cost of a 5 litre Merc. I doubt it.
Old cars depreciate regardless of road tax.
A 15 year old 'barge' is pretty much valueless regardless of road tax.

Means Of Escape

swarlb wrote: »

Just a question, if road tax for example was 56 Euro a year on lets say a 1998 XJ Sport, or a 2000 CL500, would there suddenly be more of these appearing on the roads, would people start importing them and replacing the fleet of 'euroboxes'. Would familyman with a Zafira, be wafting around happily paying for the running cost of a 5 litre Merc. I doubt it.
Old cars depreciate regardless of road tax.
A 15 year old 'barge' is pretty much valueless regardless of road tax.

I disagree.
They depreciate at a higher rate DUE to the motor tax not so much for its fuel efficiency
Case example. A pre 08 BMW 730 d will cost you less to buy than a 09 BMW 730d even with lower mileage due to the disparity in motor tax rates despite both cars being identical regarding fuel efficiency.
Anyone who has a clue about cars would know that the automotive value and driving experience of a cl500 is not in the same league as an Opel Zafira
There would be a lot more older 4 litre and 5 litre luxury cars on the roads as they would give better bang for your buck due to the low mileage in general, the good service history associated with these expensive cars if they were a one owner vehicle and their build quality .
Motor tax is the killer not fuel costs overall .
If you drive less than 15k kms a year it's madness to buy a diesel as u will never recoup the the premium you paid for the diesel version of the car you bought .
With low mileage travelled in the year the older luxury cars would be a very good buy if the motor tax rates we're not ridiculous for said cars.

carchaeologist

swarlb wrote: »

Just a question, if road tax for example was 56 Euro a year on lets say a 1998 XJ Sport, or a 2000 CL500, would there suddenly be more of these appearing on the roads, would people start importing them and replacing the fleet of 'euroboxes'. Would familyman with a Zafira, be wafting around happily paying for the running cost of a 5 litre Merc. I doubt it.
Old cars depreciate regardless of road tax.
A 15 year old 'barge' is pretty much valueless regardless of road tax.

There is a 94 S500 sitting up here that I would certainly be driving if the tax wasn't so stupid. Whatever about the cost of petrol, giving the bones of €2000 to tax it is sickening.
The cost of taxing older big engine stuff here is certainly a deterrent to using them.

Dades

Exorbitant road tax is definitely a reason many luxury cars from the 80's and 90's aren't on the roads.

Check out this beauty for €5.5K. :eek:



For the same price in the cheap tax bracket you can get this chick-magnet.