Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
High speed rail Cork - Dublin
Options
Comments
-
as has been mentioned getting to heuston is a joke, as a dubliner. Until we get a decent rail system here, DU and MN etc. Would they not build a massive park and ride just outside the m50, for those of us, that would take the train, but only if we could drive to it easily and park cheaply?0
-
Would they not build a massive park and ride just outside the m50, for those of us, that would take the train
why should they., only tiny numbers travel by train0 -
because people may switch to train or bus, if they did this. As has been mentioned, most wont bother going into centre of dublin to change to either option...why should they., only tiny numbers travel by train0 -
because people may switch to train or bus,
The history of post war rail travel in Ireland, has been a series of initiatives that "may" entice people to the train.
The fact is that the only enticement has actually been a negative one, i.e. congestion or poor roads, where travel times are seriously compromised, Once you fix that ( even temporally ) people abandon rail and bus in great numbers , like whats happening on Dublin Galway and Dublin Belfast. Rail and bus are " reluctant " alternatives. That is not a solution to rail travel numbers.
IN reality , rail travel in the face of " good " road alternatives simply isn't enticing travellers, this is especially true , where intercity rail is being turned into a bus on wheels experience.
The fact is rail travel in ireland will remain a poor relation to road use, because the vast majority of travellers, would opt for the car if they could.0 -
-
Advertisement
-
hans aus dtschl wrote: »Yes, agreed, but there's currently no plan for the M20, unfortunately. As it stands, the current infrastructure is what will be in place for the foreseeable future.
I think you will find an accelerated capital plan in the next few years. The M20 suffered in priorities due to cutbacks in spending under the Troika.
It wouldn't surprise me to hear an announcement next year0 -
I would contend it has everything thing to do with it. Even in the UK, with a vastly more successful railway system, they are baulking at the costs of HS2.
Therefore its entirely unrealistic to suggest that Ireland will ever build dedicated high speed train routes. We can hardly build an airport connection , never mind a HS dedicated rail link to cork .
Hence any higher speeds have to be accommodated with the gauge structure of the existing victorian railway system. Equally such rails are unlikely to be dedicated to high speed traffic exclusively , so the pathing difficulties ( that exist today on IE) will be a huge issue. I presume you understand what I mean by pathing issues
Is anybody suggesting a 400 km/h line for Ireland? I'm not.
Using a mix of current and new infrastructure -- they need HS2 to be 90% new build because the pathing issues are much greater and there's far less scope for four tracking or diversions where needed in the UK than there is here.Now lets examine the swedish high sped rail system ( which is mentioned here in glowing terms) , which currently is running at 200kmph
The X2 runs between Stockholm, Gothenberg and Malmo, These have metropolitan populations of approx 2.2million, 1million, and 500,000 respectively
Contrast that Ireland , Dublin ( 1.5 million in a radius of less then one hour of centre) , Cork 280,000 Belfast 673,000,
( in Dublin given the distance, the population available to rail is wildly overstated, as it is unreasonable to postulate that commuters, living in Kildare, or wicklow will travel east or north , away from cork to catch a train back south )
Also distances in Sweden are significantly greater , Stockholm Gothenberg is close to 500 km of rail distance, whereas Cork is under 200Km and Belfast even less.
Hence there is no real comparison between the two countries or their raill systems
At present Sweden has actually not been able to increase many trains above 200Km, due to signalling systems and a decision on whether to go to a dedicated high speed rail route.
I did not make the comparison between the two countries.
But a quick look at the stats and you're not comparing like for like -- it's Stockholm metro area (ie all of Stockholm County) which has 2.2 million people and it's spread across 6,519.3 km2 (ie just slightly smaller than the Greater Dublin area).
Yes, I accept that there's larger distances and populations at play in Sweden but you clearly are "min/maxing the arguments to suit your perspective". Again: Sweden isn't an example I gave!You seem blinded, If you look at numbers being carried on Dublin Cork and Dublin Belfast, you will see that IE is simply irrelevant to the vast vast majority of travellers between those cities, this is especially true of Dublin Belfast. Most business have voted with their BMWs and no longer use any rail at all. ( as the fall off of IEs business class has shown)
You're very focused on history and as things are rather than the future -- Irish Rail as it currently stands is next to irrelevant to what is suggested. Things change. Many people said that the Eurostar and Acela Express would never carry as large as a percentage of passengers as they do now.Today we have 450km battery only cars, that outperform any petrol in speed and acceleration and comfort, these are no milk floats ( Tesla Model X) , we have family sized EVs ;like the 2016 Leaf that can do Dublin cork in one charge ( 200km range) ( at a cost of 1 euro 80 cents ) . There is actually a massive glut of over supply of lithium batteries and factories at the moment
The production process, I would argue is a lot cleaner , then building ( and running ) trains
as for supply there are 5 major suppliers, today of BEVs ( true EVs not hybrids) , BMW, VW, Nissan, Tesla, and Renault. Within 5 years that number will triple, with all major manufacturers having announced plans for BEV releases
I was talking about supply of resources for batteries -- estimated at around 50 years last time I read about it and in a limited amount of countries.
And the tailbacks in and out of Dublin and Cork are growing.There is no capacity issues on our motorways, with the exception of the M50, which is primarily down to bad engineering decisions.
The rest of the country is comparatively empty by european standards and is now serviced by new high standard motorways, and such motorway programmes continues apace, with M11 extensions, Gort etc
Anyone who drives outside dublin , knows the road system is a joy to behold, as the massive falloff in Dublin Galway rail traffic as shown
The future is private electric personal transport, Ireland is uniquely suited, as we are increasing our supply of renewal energy, our distances are short , which suit battery cars and our temperature climate and good empty motorways are ideal environments for such use. There si simply NO going back to 19th century patterns of transport usage
Im sorry , There is simply no justification for intercity ( as opposed to commuter ) services in ireland at all , in my view. Never mind an expensive limited use white elephant of electrified high( er) speed trains, running to comparatively small population centres, already served by underutilised motorways
As I said, you're very focused on as things are rather than the future. There's major capacity issues in and around Dublin and Cork.
"NO going back to 19th century patterns of transport usage" etc is just your ideology rather than focus discussing the most effective, sustainable, and cleanest way to transport people in the long term.0 -
Is anybody suggesting a 400 km/h line for Ireland? I'm not.
Using a mix of current and new infrastructure -- they need HS2 to be 90% new build because the pathing issues are much greater and there's far less scope for four tracking or diversions where needed in the UK than there is here.
Since the introduction of hourly services and railcars. pathing for passenger trains in Ireland is very tight , coupled by very restrictive access to Dublin by RailI did not make the comparison between the two countries.
But a quick look at the stats and you're not comparing like for like -- it's Stockholm metro area (ie all of Stockholm County) which has 2.2 million people and it's spread across 6,519.3 km2 (ie just slightly smaller than the Greater Dublin area).
Please look again, the greater Dublin area may have a pop density , but nowhere else has, Sweden has several big cities, in contrast the GDA actually needs more rail. but we dont need intercity services . half the GDA is an hour from cork anyway !!You're very focused on history and as things are rather than the future -- Irish Rail as it currently stands is next to irrelevant to what is suggested. Things change. Many people said that the Eurostar and Acela Express would never carry as large as a percentage of passengers as they do now.
Rail is a historical transport system tied to very inflexible routes, routes laid down close to 200 years ago and largely outdated .Thats why history is importantI was talking about supply of resources for batteries -- estimated at around 50 years last time I read about it and in a limited amount of countries.
new deposits of Li being discovered all the time, battery tech isn't limited to Li either, lets not debate this nonsense , theres more then enough battery materials on the planet for the foreseeable future. ( i remember you/others similar scare stories about oil in the 80s -90s )
yes , commuter rail needs expandingAnd the tailbacks in and out of Dublin and Cork are growing.As I said, you're very focused on as things are rather than the future. There's major capacity issues in and around Dublin and Cork.
"NO going back to 19th century patterns of transport usage" etc is just your ideology rather than focus discussing the most effective, sustainable, and cleanest way to transport people in the long term.
EVs represent the best way forward, including semi autonomous usage in cities. Rail is dead as a method in Ireland , outside commuter usage, ( Freight is completely finished almost, down to 2-3 trains a week! ) . EV powered from central relabel sources, ( 36% of ireland night time electricity is renewable) .
Big trains on rails, running between fixed 19th century destinations, is nor the future. personal , semi-full auto guided vehicles is the way , roads will be a key to this and need to be continuously developed.0 -
Since the introduction of hourly services and railcars. pathing for passenger trains in Ireland is very tight , coupled by very restrictive access to Dublin by Rail
In the context of the Dublin/Cork line this is absolute nonsense. There is plenty of room for additional paths and better use of the four tracking out of Heuston. The line is not remotely near saturation level.
As I posted already in this thread, with a reasonably modest investment, which is what is taking place, the Dublin/Cork non-stop trains could be accelerated to 1 hour 50-55 minutes, and the standard journey time with four stops (Portlaoise, Thurles, Limerick Junction and Mallow) to 2 hours 10-15 minutes.0 -
In the context of the Dublin/Cork line this is absolute nonsense. There is plenty of room for additional paths and better use of the four tracking out of Heuston. The line is not remotely near saturation level.
As I posted already in this thread, with a reasonably modest investment, which is what is taking place, the Dublin/Cork non-stop trains could be accelerated to 1 hour 50-55 minutes, and the standard journey time with four stops (Portlaoise, Thurles, Limerick Junction and Mallow) to 2 hours 10-15 minutes.
for the purposes of achieving what ??, small increments have no real affect on door to door transit times.
Better to concentrate on bringing the network up to a reasonable speed overall, Dublin Waterford and Dublin Rossalare has absolutely terrible transit times and massive speed restrictions in places. Consideration should be given to a proper set of ICRs on the Dublin Rosslaree etc
Even The return of proper MK3 sets on the Dublin cork, maybe in the form of and updated diesel HST type product to improve comfort and ride quality.
But simply chasing speed, does very little.
As to pathing issues, unless you have access to different experts to me, I was reliably informed that pathing is an issue for significantly higher speed trains ( which is what is being discussed here, i.e. electrification HST etc ). This was not a discussion about small speed increments within the current rolling stock or improvements as a result of the removal of speed restrictions0 -
Advertisement
-
for the purposes of achieving what ??, small increments have no real affect on door to door transit times.
Better to concentrate on bringing the network up to a reasonable speed overall, Dublin Waterford and Dublin Rossalare has absolutely terrible transit times and massive speed restrictions in places. Consideration should be given to a proper set of ICRs on the Dublin Rosslaree etc
Even The return of proper MK3 sets on the Dublin cork, maybe in the form of and updated diesel HST type product to improve comfort and ride quality.
But simply chasing speed, does very little.
As to pathing issues, unless you have access to different experts to me, I was reliably informed that pathing is an issue for significantly higher speed trains ( which is what is being discussed here, i.e. electrification HST etc )
These are incremental improvements that can be achieved at a very modest cost. We are talking about €10m per year here and I think that cutting 20-25 minutes off existing journey times as a result of this is a worthwhile investment. It will improve journey times to Waterford, Galway/Mayo, Limerick and Kerry.
There are sufficient paths available to deliver that level of speed.
Beyond that frankly is dealing with pie in the sky, and I don't see it happening - there is no need for it. But this is a very worthwhile investment.
Dublin/Rosslare is constrained by the DART service (specifically the 30 minute service to Greystones) and the paths available - improving speed between Dublin and Greystones isn't possible without an extra track which is not going to happen. All of the services bar one return working are booked for ICRs nowadays on the route.
Dublin/Waterford is constrained by the need to serve Kilkenny and for trains to reverse there.
Any of the single track lines will suffer due to the need to wait and pass trains at crossing loops - there's not much one can do about that.0 -
These are incremental improvements that can be achieved at a very modest cost. We are talking about €10m per year here and I think that cutting 20-25 minutes off existing journey times as a result of this is a worthwhile investment. It will improve journey times to Waterford, Galway/Mayo, Limerick and Kerry.
There are sufficient paths available to deliver that level of speed.
Beyond that frankly is dealing with pie in the sky, and I don't see it happening - there is no need for it. But this is a very worthwhile investment.
Then we have no disagreement, however its not the topic of this threadDublin/Rosslare is constrained by the DART service and the paths available - improving speed between Dublin and Greystones isn't possible without an extra track. All of the services bar one return working are booked for ICRs nowadays on the route.
As someone who lives in Gorey, let me tell you its constrained by terrible line speeds outside the DART area It takes 2 hours to do 60 miles
Only the morning train 8:30 and the evening train out is an ICR all the rest are totally unsuitable commuter stock ( the same issue is also identified in the 2013 strategic rail review ) any google search will provide this documentDublin/Waterford is constrained by the need to serve Kilkenny.
The strategic rail review 2013 , has identified very significant speed restrictions and poor track , particularly south of Kilkenny, Journey times are slower know then in the 19 century
Any of the single track lines will suffer due to the need to wait and pass trains at crossing loops - there's not much one can do about that.
Not the issue, in many cases, timetabling can easily solve that , often there isn't a competing train running in the opposite direction anyway0 -
Then we have no disagreement, however its not the topic of this thread
I think it fair to point out what is achievable with incremental improvements to the existing infrastructure, and that would be something that has not been achieved ever before - a sub 2-hour Dublin-Cork service.As someone who lives in Gorey, let me tell you its constrained by terrible line speeds outside the DART area It takes 2 hours to do 60 miles
I don't think you're going to see much improvement between Arklow and Wicklow through Rathdrum (which is the other particularly slow section) is not really one where line speed improvements are feasible, plus there is the Quay section in Wexford.Only the morning train 8:30 and the evening train out is an ICR all the rest are totally unsuitable commuter stock ( the same issue is also identified in the 2013 strategic rail review ) any google search will provide this document
The 05:35 from Rosslare and the 16:37 from Connolly are the only trains booked for 29k operation on the Rosslare route. If a 29k operates another service, then it's because there isn't a 22k available for whatever reason.The strategic rail review 2013 , has identified very significant speed restrictions and poor track , particularly south of Kilkenny, Journey times are slower know then in the 19 century
The strategic rail review was in 2003 - 11 years ago, not 2013. Journey times have improved since then.
Line speed between Kilkenny and Waterford is 80mph, and apart from either side of Thomastown Viaduct, and on the approaches to Kilkenny and Waterford there are virtually no permanent speed restrictions.Not the issue, in many cases, timetabling can easily solve that , often there isn't a competing train running in the opposite direction anyway
Can I ask have you sat down and pathed out all these services, taking into account the knock-on implications to other trains before making that very sweeping statement? Unless you have done, it's a meaningless statement.0 -
the 2013 is a typo yes I meant 2003, I also refer people to http://www.irishrail.ie/media/irishrail_28febfinal_part11.pdf ( parts 1 and 2)
I do not have any issue with incremental increases in speed within the current infrastructure and within the current capability of the rolling stock. I would not agree that the subject of this thread, some form of electrified high ( or higher) speed service is tenable or feasible. ( or required)0 -
BoatMad wrote:It wouldn't surprise me to hear an announcement next year
If they were going to announce it they'd have done it before the upcoming upcoming election .. could easily have come up with a fudge to have " kept the project going" rather than the blanket no,that they came out with ...Slava ukraini 🇺🇦
0 -
Markcheese wrote: »If they were going to announce it they'd have done it before the upcoming upcoming election .. could easily have come up with a fudge to have " kept the project going" rather than the blanket no,that they came out with ...
NO , they explained the budget with in the fiscal rules as much as they could, If the " fiscal space " keeps expanding as a result of growth, we will see greater capital spending and I believe the M20 will be re-visited.
Unexpected things like a FF Tánaiste from Cork , could have a invigorating effect on the M20 project, much like having Bredan Howlin , kept the M11 on track !!0 -
There must be a massive buffer built into the current timetables across the board.
Left Heuston last night 15 minutes late on the 19.35 to Galway, pulled into Athenry one minute earlier than the timetabled arrival.0 -
A few suggestions I would make on the wexford to improve services would be to not have services stopping at greystones as it is not necessary to have them stopping as there is aleady a 30 minute dart service there, allow a higher speed at the rathdrum section of track and fence off and put footbridges on the quay section in wexford town aswell as putting up proper level crossings.0
-
There must be a massive buffer built into the current timetables across the board.
Left Heuston last night 15 minutes late on the 19.35 to Galway, pulled into Athenry one minute earlier than the timetabled arrival.
It's nothing to do with a "massive buffer".
It's to do with operating on a single track railway. Trains can only pass at locations where there are passing loops, and in order to maintain the schedule, additional time is added at those locations when trains pass one another in order to reduce the knock-on impact of possible delays.
The 19:35 Dublin-Galway train would have additional time built into the schedule to allow it to cross (pass) trains at both Tullamore and Clara - that is necessary to maintain the overall schedule on the line.
Nothing more than that.0 -
A few suggestions I would make on the wexford to improve services would be to not have services stopping at greystones as it is not necessary to have them stopping as there is aleady a 30 minute dart service there, allow a higher speed at the rathdrum section of track and fence off and put footbridges on the quay section in wexford town aswell as putting up proper level crossings.
There are several issues on this line
threading the train through the DART schedule is very difficult as it doesnt stop at the same stations the DART does, so it tends to run faster and hence tends to running under double yellows all the way in, i.e. the train in the section ahead is slowing it,
removing a stop at greystones would have the opposite effect. removing stops outside the dart area would lead to an increase
Historically the line through the wicklow hills, was always the subject of speed restrictions , its unlikely short of major re-alignmentrs to be capable of significant speed upgrades , I timed the runs via GPS recently the train approaches 60 mph in places but is restricted to 30-40 in section of the track through the mountains
so its not a question of " allowing" a higher speed
Wexford is not practical to fence and there are established access patterns throughout the decades that IE could not I suspect enforce closure on.
In the context of a three hour journey the quays do not represent a major delay
anyway the section was wexford to rosslare is under threat of closure , IE will remove that delay so, !!
IN my view pathing through the DART is a major issue , as it is all over the Dublin rail system . Id prefer if IE just gave us proper ICR 22K railcars on all trains , then do anything with speeds, at least we could get rid of the horrible commuter 29Ks0 -
Advertisement
-
Join Date:Posts: 19346
Would it not make sense if the Wexford train terminated at Bray with a Dart taking over onto Connolly, perhaps only stopping at Dun Loagharie in between. This would free the Wexford train to return to Wexford, perhaps allowing for an extra run in the day.0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »Would it not make sense if the Wexford train terminated at Bray with a Dart taking over onto Connolly, perhaps only stopping at Dun Loagharie in between. This would free the Wexford train to return to Wexford, perhaps allowing for an extra run in the day.
yes but Bray no longer has anything like the necessary room for stabling several railcar sets . changing and waiting annoys rail commuters and modern stations have poor waiting and refreshment facilities
( this leaves aside the fact that stranding railcar sets at the edge of the dublin areas renders them unavailable for other duties throughout the day and also there 48 hour visit to the maintenance depot in portlaosie0 -
Sam Russell wrote: »Would it not make sense if the Wexford train terminated at Bray with a Dart taking over onto Connolly, perhaps only stopping at Dun Loagharie in between. This would free the Wexford train to return to Wexford, perhaps allowing for an extra run in the day.
there are several close together train in the morning and evening, you would require several sets of railcars to be stabled at Bray , and would render them useless to the rest of the network0 -
Join Date:Posts: 19346
yes but Bray no longer has anything like the necessary room for stabling several railcar sets . changing and waiting annoys rail commuters and modern stations have poor waiting and refreshment facilities
( this leaves aside the fact that stranding railcar sets at the edge of the dublin areas renders them unavailable for other duties throughout the day and also there 48 hour visit to the maintenance depot in portlaosie
I do not understand the problem. Wexford train arrives at platform 3. Passengers get off train and cross platform onto waiting Dart train which then departs. Wexford train waits for Dart arriving at platform one. Passengers alight and cross bridge, climb aboard Wexford train which then departs.
Am I missing something?
The train standing in platform 3 is the Wexford train leaving in 5 minutes - why does it need stabling? It saves the 30 mins into Connolly and the 30 mins back out? The train is not available for the rest of the network as it is busy.
There are 5 trains from Bray taking 1 hr 45 mins to get there, and presumably 1hr 45 mins to get back. So by saving 1 hr per trip (by not going beyond Bray) means that 5 hrs is saved, allowing for nearly two extra trips per day with the existing rolling stock.
Obviously, not all of the scheduled trips would have to terminate at Bray, but some could allowing for an extra trip per day.
Also, the first train does not depart from Bray until after 10 am (10:17) making an early morning trip impossible as it arrives in Wexford after 12 noon.0 -
The train standing in platform 3 is the Wexford train leaving in 5 minutes - why does it need stabling? It saves the 30 mins into Connolly and the 30 mins back out? The train is not available for the rest of the network as it is busy.
for commuters on the wexford line, there are two early trains less then one hour part ( in the same direction ) , covering a nearly three hour journey in the morning, it you could tell me how one car set manages that Ill be impressed
There is equally a middle of the day train from both wexford and dublin ( that passes at wicklow), if that can be equally implemented by one railcar set , Ill be doubly impressed
( equally in the evening rush hour )
leaving aside in the middle of the day , when the wexford line is quiet, the railcars are not available to other stations, as they are stabled inbray according to your plans, a look at the 2015 working timetable ( not the public one) will show you how highly timetables these car sets are
railways do not work by running the same train back and forth, on long journeys it would mean nonsense timetabling0 -
It's a pity the dart has so many stations that are excessively near one an other which slow down other trains seapoint and salthill come to mind both are 5 minutes walk of one an other. Having a third looping platform at dart stations would be a good idea so as a dart or a commuter train could pull into the third for a couple of minutes to let a faster intercity pass it out. I have seen this done in italy where fast get priority over slow trains.0
-
It's a pity the dart has so many stations that are excessively near one an other which slow down other trains seapoint and salthill come to mind both are 5 minutes walk of one an other. Having a third looping platform at dart stations would be a good idea so as a dart or a commuter train could pull into the third for a couple of minutes to let a faster intercity pass it out. I have seen this done in italy where fast get priority over slow trains.
yes indeed, but much of the "Dublin to Kingstown " railway was built even then through upmarket housing and land take was kept to a minimum, hence little space is available for passing loops . the problem is that the track was never designed to support high frequency rail usages0 -
yes indeed, but much of the "Dublin to Kingstown " railway was built even then through upmarket housing and land take was kept to a minimum, hence little space is available for passing loops . the problem is that the track was never designed to support high frequency rail usages
Yeah its a bit of pity we have such an outdated suburban rail system in dublin. In the rome suburbs they have all the land around the tracks is owned by the railway in case extra tracks are needed so they have to make cpo.0 -
Yeah its a bit of pity we have such an outdated suburban rail system in dublin. In the rome suburbs they have all the land around the tracks is owned by the railway in case extra tracks are needed so they have to make cpo.
yes , Dublin has in essence added nothing to its commuter rail infrastructure since it was built for 19th century Dublin. The state has not undertaken any major heavy rail infrastructure addition since its foundation and in fact has removed more and more rail infrastructure and sold off the adjoining land ,.0 -
Advertisement
-
How would you get from Wicklow to Greystones or vice versa then?A few suggestions I would make on the wexford to improve services would be to not have services stopping at greystones as it is not necessary to have them stopping as there is aleady a 30 minute dart service there, allow a higher speed at the rathdrum section of track and fence off and put footbridges on the quay section in wexford town aswell as putting up proper level crossings.0
Advertisement