Ireland v Germany

ColeTrain

intellectual dosser wrote: »

That money you pay for your TV license goes into Dunphy's pocket - what a great shame of ours that is. He is a small joke of a man who can never say a good thing about anything or anyone. Last night was one of our greatest results, particularly in the last 10-15 years, and he just had to try and piss all over it.

He's probably reeling from being described as an idiot by his 'friend' Roy Keane in his book. The man needs to be taken off our TV screens.

In fairness to Dunphy, with the equaliser coming in the last minute, he had little time to write a brand new script!

kfallon

the untitled user wrote: »

I'm not disagreeing that on the ball he's pretty awful (he had the worst pass completion ratio of any outfielder last night). But he won more headers than anyone on the pitch last night and that gives us an outlet we don't have anywhere else on the pitch.

In contrast you have McGeady, who despite being our best passer in the advanced areas still didn't create anything of note, and McClean, who despite being the only man in a green jersey capable of finding space last night didn't find anyone with his crosses.

If you honestly think Walters was better than McClean last night then it's prob best we just move on, we'll end up going round and round in circles.

Not sure how anyone can come to that conclusion tbh!

Nerdlingr

I didnt think the RTE were wrong in anything they were saying last night.
They praised the Irish fighting spirit and the commitment to keep going till the very end.
What they did question was why from the time the game starts, when we are in possession of the ball, can we not pass it to each other like we did in the last 20 mins?
Is it a confidence thing? Do the players / management not trust our ability to get the ball down and string a few passes together?
They werent syaing lets go out and attack Germany from the start. They were saying, when we turn the ball over why do we have to keep lamping it away?
A legitimate question I would have thought.

Shanotheslayer

kfallon wrote: »

If you honestly think Walters was better than McClean last night then it's prob best we just move on, we'll end up going round and round in circles.

Not sure how anyone can come to that conclusion tbh!

But he won 11 headers!....

Lord Trollington

average_runner wrote: »

Really disappointed with last night performance, we were playing a German team that lack confidence and once we attacked them in the last 20 mins, the Germans got very nervous.

Players were afraid to go forward with the ball, instead passed it back to the keeper for the keeper to boot it up the field and lose possession.

In last 20 mins we created 3 good chances, should of went for the kill after half time.

The Germans were lacking confidence and very tired looking, a great opportunity missed by Ireland and the negative tactics of the management, 3 points were there to take!!

The Germans will regroup and come back stronger.

That I hope they do. Because we have taken a point from then already which will be a point more than any other team will take from them on German soil.

kfallon

Shanotheslayer wrote: »

But he won 11 headers!....

Pity his feet weren't as effective!

Lord Trollington

If anyone wants to smile this morning. Watch the last 4 minutes of the game and what it meant to all of the players.

http://www.rte.ie/player/ie/show/10333748/

cournioni

Deleted User wrote: »

In all the celebrations we shouldn't forget the ref.

Thought he was very good.

Excellent point, if it had to have been some clown of a ref he may have gave them at least a penalty (wrongly on all counts). He was a very strong ref and didn't let the German's playacting and calls for penalties affect his game.

briany

Great result as it was, Ireland did ride their luck last night and that's what you have to hope for a share of when you decide to sit back and defend. Germany did rattle the crossbar as well as get a one on one with Forde (great save). Two instances that might have gone another way on another night.

My fear is simply that if Ireland got to the Euros, they'd be trying this same tactic against the better, hungry teams and getting stuffed because of it. It'd be a repeat of 2012, basically.

Don't forget that Ireland got two battling draws with the world champs under the watch of Trap as well and had a great spirit. Right now, I'm not seeing where there's going to be a whole lot of progress beyond the Trap era.

naughto

Do we all agree that there's no place for Whelan on the Irish team?

TheCitizen

kfallon wrote: »

If you honestly think Walters was better than McClean last night then it's prob best we just move on, we'll end up going round and round in circles.

Not sure how anyone can come to that conclusion tbh!

I'd play Walters in his best position - up front against Scotland. With Shane Long out of form and Robbie Keane useful now only in home games or as a sub late on in games.

Soups123

naughto wrote: »

Do we all agree that there's no place for Whelan on the Irish team?

I know its fashionable to hate Whelan and to make him the biggest association to the Trap era and approach, but I disagree.

Someone has to earn the right to push him out. Gibson and Jeff H played there against Gibralta and were poor enough, both did better off the bench against German, so possibly.

McCarthy is a banker. Quinn is a very good option but for me you only want or need him for the home/away games that are tough anything else it needs to be some one else.

Whelan is not a guaranteed starter but he is guarenteed to be in the mix. He gets unfair flack from some fans yet Irish Managers and PL club managers seem happy to back and play him no problem. Strang that considering most fans know alot more then them..............

kfallon

TheCitizen wrote: »

I'd play Walters in his best position - up front against Scotland. With Shane Long out of form and Robbie Keane useful now only in home games or as a sub late on in games.

Is Walters 'in form'?

Soups123

TheCitizen wrote: »

I'd play Walters in his best position - up front against Scotland. With Shane Long out of form and Robbie Keane useful now only in home games or as a sub late on in games.

Robbie has to start in Scotland, he is still our best chance of a goal and we will get chances against there defence. I was said by a few in the match thread yesterday if we ever get a chance the player we still want on the end of it is Robbie.

The use of our wingers with Weso and Robbie kniting it up top could be too much for Scotland defense.

naughto

Soups123 wrote: »

I know its fashionable to hate Whelan and to make him the biggest association to the Trap era and approach, but I disagree.

Someone has to earn the right to push him out. Gibson and Jeff H played there against Gibralta and were poor enough, both did better off the bench against German, so possibly.

McCarthy is a banker. Quinn is a very good option but for me you only want or need him for the home/away games that are tough anything else it needs to be some one else.

Whelan is not a guaranteed starter but he is guarenteed to be in the mix. He gets unfair flack from some fans yet Irish Managers and PL club managers seem happy to back and play him no problem. Strang that considering most fans know alot more then them..............

He plays well for his club but he has being s1hite for Ireland the last 6yrs.
There has to some one better all he did last night was pass the ball back or give it away

Soups123

naughto wrote: »

He plays well for his club but he has being s1hite for Ireland the last 6yrs.
There has to some one better all he did last night was pass the ball back or give it away

If there is then why have two managers both missed who this replacement is and why have they been ignored for 6 years. To say he has been poor for 6 yrs is wrong, he played Traps system the way he was supposed to

W123-80's

Not sure if its been mentioned already in this thread but..

Am I the only one who actually thought Hoolahan was very poor when he came on last night?
Lost the ball frequently and didn't really do a whole lot. His cross for the equaliser was a poor cross only for Myler to send it back into danger area.

The boys on the panel did not mention any of this?

Am I missing something?

Nerdlingr

Hoolahan is in favour at the moment. He slipped a few times and lost possesion once or twice and like you said he over-hit the cross for the goal. But I'd still start him in behind keane away to scotland. He's our best option of linking up play.

Soups123

W123-80's wrote: »

Not sure if its been mentioned already in this thread but..

Am I the only one who actually thought Hoolahan was very poor when he came on last night?
Lost the ball frequently and didn't really do a whole lot. His cross for the equaliser was a poor cross only for Myler to send it back into danger area.

The boys on the panel did not mention any of this?

Am I missing something?

nope you are right, many said it on here last night it was a bad enough performance but off the bench away to Germany is tough, he kept busy though.

RTE wont mention it because he's the flavour of the month, the new Reid, McCarthy, Coleman, McClean etc etc. there is always one player not involved who is masked as our saviour

Kerrydude1981

naughto wrote: »

Do we all agree that there's no place for Whelan on the Irish team?

Going on last nights game,Whelan should be 4th choice CM from now on

McCarthy,Gibson and Hendrick should be ahead of him now.

Soups123

Kerrydude1981 wrote: »

Going on last nights game,Whelan should be 4th choice CM from now on

McCarthy,Gibson and Hendrick should be ahead of him now.

No way should Gibson or Hendrick be ahead, they were awful against Gibralta and did well from the bench. They are both good enough to replace him but we should expect more from both before they get nudged ahead

TheCitizen

Soups123 wrote: »

Robbie has to start in Scotland, he is still our best chance of a goal and we will get chances against there defence. I was said by a few in the match thread yesterday if we ever get a chance the player we still want on the end of it is Robbie.

The use of our wingers with Weso and Robbie kniting it up top could be too much for Scotland defense.

Robbie doesn't have to start away to Scotland, he could be very useful coming on as a sub with 30 minutes left if we were drawing or behind. He's still our best goalscorer, but I think he could get a lot of goals for us now coming on as a sub when the game is stretched.

TheCitizen

kfallon wrote: »

Is Walters 'in form'?

When he was put up front late on he lead the line well and that allowed us to get some possession in their half of the pitch.

Backstreet Moyes

I think it's fair to say Hollohan misplaced a pass or two and lost his balance once or twice but you still have to notice the difference.

He got into a great position on a counter and played a poor ball.
He got free in the box and the defender make a great block.
Poor cross for the goal but while others were pouring into the box he gave McGeady an outlet for a cross.

So yes while he gave away a few passes i can't say he was that poor. Our attacking ability became much better once him and Gibson came onto the field. I would without a doubt start him off Keane in home games.

Away games i can see a case for three solid midfielders and like last night Hoolohan coming on late trying to stretch tired defenders.

kstand

I'd imagine if the boys had a full deck to choose from neither Quinn or Whelan would start. You'd have Gibson and McCarthy in the middle. You could then play Houlihan in front of those 2 with McGeady and McLean as wingers behind whoever plays up front. I don't think we have the squad to play 4-4-2 and are more suited to a more defensive 4-5-1 formation.
Kroos goal last night was criminal from a midfielders point of view - Quinn made a half-asred attempt to get to him and close down the shot - gave him too much space and paid the price.

GBXI

Soups123 wrote: »

I know its fashionable to hate Whelan and to make him the biggest association to the Trap era and approach, but I disagree.

Someone has to earn the right to push him out. Gibson and Jeff H played there against Gibralta and were poor enough, both did better off the bench against German, so possibly.

McCarthy is a banker. Quinn is a very good option but for me you only want or need him for the home/away games that are tough anything else it needs to be some one else.

Whelan is not a guaranteed starter but he is guarenteed to be in the mix. He gets unfair flack from some fans yet Irish Managers and PL club managers seem happy to back and play him no problem. Strang that considering most fans know alot more then them..............

The bit in bold highlights the fact the majority of football fans, as fanatical and genuine as they are, haven't a clue what they are talking about.

Backstreet Moyes

Who said Walters is in form he has played one league game this season and is a back up winger now for Stoke. Their is no way he should start up front for Ireland. I can see a case made for being a defensive winger away but he should not start at home and never up front.

Soups123

TheCitizen wrote: »

Robbie doesn't have to start away to Scotland, he could be very useful coming on as a sub with 30 minutes left if we were drawing or behind. He's still our best goalscorer, but I think he could get a lot of goals for us now coming on as a sub when the game is stretched.

I don't doubt he could do it but who scores the goals for the chances that come our way for the first 60/70 minutes.

For me he is still comfortably our first striker on the team sheet.

Concerning though Long got no game time he looked he was the one ready to push Robbie

eyescreamcone

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Hoolahan is in favour at the moment. He slipped a few times and lost possesion once or twice and like you said he over-hit the cross for the goal. But I'd still start him in behind keane away to scotland. He's our best option of linking up play.

Hoolihan had a mare when he came on - the jury is still out on whether he's worth his place.

LiamoSail

After last night, I'd say there'll be a few Germans daughters turning up in ballyfermot over the the next few weeks

Lord Trollington

W123-80's wrote: »

Not sure if its been mentioned already in this thread but..

Am I the only one who actually thought Hoolahan was very poor when he came on last night?
Lost the ball frequently and didn't really do a whole lot. His cross for the equaliser was a poor cross only for Myler to send it back into danger area.

The boys on the panel did not mention any of this?

Am I missing something?

I thought he was awful also. He gave away a lot of ball and even from a throw in threw on straight to a german player.

We pressed higher up the pitch when we went a goal down which made Hoolahan look busy and got him on some ball but in reality he was poor.

Kermit.de.frog

https://twitter.com/nialloloughlin/status/522130906858151936/photo/1

Backstreet Moyes

Soups123 wrote: »

I don't doubt he could do it but who scores the goals for the chances that come our way for the first 60/70 minutes.

For me he is still comfortably our first striker on the team sheet.

Concerning though Long got no game time he looked he was the one ready to push Robbie

Long needs first team football as a first choice striker. He moved to Southampton who play one up front. He is either a makeshift winger or a back up striker. He needs regular games up front to improve his finishing.

twinytwo

TheCitizen wrote: »

Robbie doesn't have to start away to Scotland, he could be very useful coming on as a sub with 30 minutes left if we were drawing or behind. He's still our best goalscorer, but I think he could get a lot of goals for us now coming on as a sub when the game is stretched.

what we need are midfielders who can pass the ball too his feet, i mean lets be serious, robbie isnt a tall man but atleast give him some chance.

Lobbing it up in the air does sweet **** all for him, the chances of him beating any good defender in the air is slim.

Billy86

kfallon wrote: »

More than a couple to be fair!
Reus, Schweinsteiger, Ozil, Khedira, Schurrle, Howedes, Kramer probably all would have played some part if fit last night!
Throw in the Benders *snigger* and Mario Gomez also out and they were down to the bare bones!

Of course that ignores the fact that we were without our best defender and player (Coleman), while our two best midfielders (McCarthy and Gibson) were unavailable in one case and just back from a year out injured in the other. But while they were able to replace their midfielders with the likes of Draxler (one of the highest rated younger players in his position in the world) and Gotze (a €37mn player who scored the WC winning goal) while still having Kroos (properly world class player), we had Stephen Quinn and Glenn Whelan. The only significant steps down in quality from their starting XI last night were Bellarabi and Rudiger (quite highly rated player but still very young) both on their right flank and guess what? We did pretty good on that side with McClean looking to get at them a few times even before they scored.

Billy86

tigger123 wrote: »

There's also the school of thought that says Martin O'Neill got his tactics spot on. He changed the team and set up to rescue a point when required.

It's a bit simplistic to say that we should have played the whole 90 like the last 20. Germany didn't so therefore we couldn't.

But Hoolahan has to start every game. He's one of the few players that connects our midfield and our attack.

Exactly - I think the telling point was the one good chance we got before their goal. Decent chance from us, seconds later it almost resulted in a goal for Podolski (and we were lucky Schurrle was out because I reckon he scored that chance). If we played open from the offset it would have been almost guaranteed that for every decent chance we had, they would have had about three more on top of typically another great chance on the counter. We also would have been far more tired than we were by the 70th minute, without even bringing up the fact that we likely would have been two, three or even four goals down.

Some were giving out about people here saying our players are not good enough etc - but we are not terrible. The thing is, there is some distance between being 'not terrible' or average and being able to match Germany man to man in an open game of football in their own country, and we are a long way off that) as are the vast majority of countries). On that end I think some people really do have delusions about our talent level, just like a month ago when we had a few scoffing over the thought that Poland or Scotland were on a par, if not better than us, in terms of overall talent. The Irish media is probably worst of all at it though, just like Ronnie Negativity Whelan claiming Durm is a 'poor' player or something to that effect before kickoff... yet an cargamento can be made that he is as good as Coleman, our best player. I said during the game that I don't know why some seemed to expect MON to play open, attacking football also since he rarely ever has as a manager, but he also does have a track record of being able to frustrate teams far better than his down the years into narrow wins, some draws and even re odd defeat. It is very rarely pretty, and it wasn't again yesterday, but it got us an absolutely huge result.

Don't agree on Hooligohan starting every game though. Most games he would work well playing off the striker or even in a 'three' alongside McGeady/McClean (who has been tip quality the last two games, both dominating a minnow and holding on against a giant) but he should start most. Poland and Scotland away, as well as possibly Germany at home, he might be best suited coming off the bench. To his credit he wasn't afraid to try and get things going last night, but he was not at all great in the way the clueless RTE dinosaurs wanted to believe he was. As usual we are being fed a false narrative on that end.

My one major criticism of MON last night was starting Whelan over Gibson despite Darron being still on the way back from injury. Would have preferred Long to Walters (or even Keane given the circumstances and our approach) also, but it was less of an error.

Aenaes

I'm not understanding the praise Gibson is getting. He lost the ball alot when he came on and even when he did manage to find a pass to feet, the ball was frequently driven at the receiving player making it hard to control.

I'm not convinced he's a first-choice midfield player. He could well be struggling to earn game time at Everton this season and Meyler, Hendrick and Quinn all likely in with a chance to get ahead of him in the pecking order.

dsmythy

Aenaes wrote: »

I'm not understanding the praise Gibson is getting. He lost the ball alot when he came on and even when he did manage to find a pass to feet, the ball was frequently driven at the receiving player making it hard to control.

I'm not convinced he's a first-choice midfield player. He could well be struggling to earn game time at Everton this season and Meyler, Hendrick and Quinn all likely in with a chance to get ahead of him in the pecking order.

I don't get it either. Always frustrates me when he gets the ball. Even more so when he does his specialty long range effort over the bar.

briany

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

https://twitter.com/nialloloughlin/status/522130906858151936/photo/1

I think that picture looks pretty spiteful, to be honest. Actually, because of what is mainly Dunphy's mouthing off, the two other boys get the stink of his bad reputation on him. While I would have to agree that Giles is well past it as an analyst, he does try to be even handed in what he says at least. The cartoon of him with the oxygen tank is unnecessary and not really funny.

And there is room for criticism of the team. There is room for improvement in the tactics and the mindset. The philosophy of 'party today and who gives a f*ck about tomorrow?' is what got Ireland totally scalped and embarrassed at the Euros and I seem to remember a lot of nay sayers being shouted down before that tournament began as well.

Again, great result, but there's always room for dialog on where the team could improve itself.

Pro. F

That was sweet. O'Shea is a hero.

Even though I'd prefer if MON was a bit more positive in his selections and set-up you have to be happy with nights like that. The team looked well organised when we were doing the ultra-defensive thing, that in itself is a massive improvement over the Trap system straight away. And then when we had no choice but to attack, MON showed flexibility and made a few sensible changes. I still don't agree with his over-cautious approach, but MON looks like a manager who knows how to coach, understands what's going on and is willing to change things up. That is a very welcome change.

Forde was great. I still worry about him under crosses, but the shot stopping and the speed he came off his line to snuff out chances last night was class.

It looked to me like the team were trying to play the ball out from the back a bit all through the game. It was only when the more skilful players came on that that started to work rather than just causing us trouble.

Keane didn't have a chance the way the team was set up while he was on.
Hopefully that's the end of the McGeady at 10 experiment.
Maybe MON likes the defensive qualities of Walters out wide. Walters should be in contention as a striker, but we should be playing our better wingers on the wing.
Hoolahan fûcked up a few times when he came on, but he also had some nice play and was involved in all our best attacks. He is still the best 10 we have and has done better in that position than any of the other candidates.

The way I see it we have two or three good options for every midfield position and a decent selection of strikers. When playing away to world champions and possession-mongers like Germany it's understandable to be cautious but, as we showed, we do have the talent to pass the ball and keep possession. So we should be doing that in most games. Hopefully we see it against Scotland.

Pudsy33

Aenaes wrote: »

I'm not understanding the praise Gibson is getting. He lost the ball alot when he came on and even when he did manage to find a pass to feet, the ball was frequently driven at the receiving player making it hard to control.

I'm not convinced he's a first-choice midfield player. He could well be struggling to earn game time at Everton this season and Meyler, Hendrick and Quinn all likely in with a chance to get ahead of him in the pecking order.

He kept the ball, passed it well, and went passed people. He was composed. He gave it a way a little but at least he pushed on. He outperformed Whelan. Quinn was good without the ball but poor with it.

GBXI

Pudsy33 wrote: »

He kept the ball, passed it well, and went passed people. He was composed. He gave it a way a little but at least he pushed on. He outperformed Whelan. Quinn was good without the ball but poor with it.

It is very hard to say that Gibson "outperformed" Whelan given that it's unlikely Gibson would have been able to do the defensive work that Whelan did for the 60+ minutes that he was on the field. Whelan for me is still a better defensive mid-fielder than Gibson.

Aenaes

Pudsy33 wrote: »

He kept the ball, passed it well

In some instances. He also lost the ball and passed poorly in other instances.

Pudsy33 wrote: »

He was composed

He wasn't. The passes that cannoned off receiving player's legs shows this.


I'm not saying Whelan is better than Gibson but as GBXI said, Whelan offers more defensively.
I'm just making the point that Gibson cannot be nailed down as a starter beside McCarthy. He hasn't justified his place.

Pudsy33

He trapped the ball, best players, and looked up field for a free man. That's composed in my book. I would agree he is not nailed down but I'd like him to play against the weaker teams.

Nerdlingr

Has Whelan justified his place?
He's a grafter, nothing more nothing less. He'll put the work in. But thats about all he offers. Nearly every ball is backwards. He's not quick enough mentally when he recives the ball to do anything with it other than lump it away or hit it back to the keeper. Like the RTE boys i dont want to be too harsh on him because he gives his all for his country but I think Gibson, maybe even Meyler, is a far better option.

Easy Rod

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Has Whelan justified his place?
He's a grafter, nothing more nothing less. He'll put the work in. But thats about all he offers. Nearly every ball is backwards. He's not quick enough mentally when he recives the ball to do anything with it other than lump it away or hit it back to the keeper. Like the RTE boys i dont want to be too harsh on him because he gives his all for his country but I think Gibson, maybe even Meyler, is a far better option.

That's a running joke with the gob****es at this stage. It's like saying "No offence" and then saying the most offensive possible statement about someone.

GBXI

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Has Whelan justified his place?
He's a grafter, nothing more nothing less. He'll put the work in. But thats about all he offers. Nearly every ball is backwards. He's not quick enough mentally when he recives the ball to do anything with it other than lump it away or hit it back to the keeper. Like the RTE boys i dont want to be too harsh on him because he gives his all for his country but I think Gibson, maybe even Meyler, is a far better option.

Again, I don't want to be seen as some Whelan fan boy, far from it, but people are way off the mark if they think the above is true. Both Meyler and Gibson have done next to nothing at club level compared to Whelan, hence the lack of international level opportunities they've received. On top of that, Whelan in general does a solid job for Ireland in what is a very tough position. I don't think Gibson will ever be defensively strong enough to play in a 2 man mid-field and Meyler has to start playing regularly at club before he can claim a starting spot as well.

UnitedIrishman

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Has Whelan justified his place?
He's a grafter, nothing more nothing less. He'll put the work in. But thats about all he offers. Nearly every ball is backwards. He's not quick enough mentally when he recives the ball to do anything with it other than lump it away or hit it back to the keeper. Like the RTE boys i dont want to be too harsh on him because he gives his all for his country but I think Gibson, maybe even Meyler, is a far better option.

The two central midfielders didn't do an awful lot when our defenders got on the ball in the first half hence a lot of direct balls up to Keane, McClean and Walters from the full backs. Meyler played very well last night in my opinion and it's a pity he's not left footed because Ward is by far the biggest liability in the side.

Gibson offers a lot more in terms of keeping possession as does Hendrick so we could see one of those come in against Scotland. Last night our setup was spot on - even though I thought we would get a trimming pre-match thinking that McGeady would be wide and Walters would be up front. He wasn't by any means brilliant but Walters gave us a great 'out-ball' when we were in trouble, and he won a couple of frees in physical battles when our backs were against the wall. Even when Keane went off he looked a bit more threatening and only for some poor decision making from McGeady we could have had two other real chances prior to our goal.

Our organisation was good and if you get into a gunfight with a team like Germany then you're asking for trouble. If we'd got hammered 5-0 after going out and attacking them then the three stooges on RTE would be saying we're naive and tactically inept so there's no winning. Hopefully the station realises it's getting tiresome having every decent result we get shot down by them (that's not to say they should turn into BBC either, but some reasonable analysis would be decent).

Nerdlingr

Easy Rod wrote: »

That's a running joke with the gob****es at this stage. It's like saying "No offence" and then saying the most offensive possible statement about someone.

Not really. Consider it more of a "I recognise you're playing at the best of your abilitiles but I still feel you're some way short. Thank you for your time and effort. Goodbye." :P

Nerdlingr

GBXI wrote: »

Again, I don't want to be seen as some Whelan fan boy, far from it, but people are way off the mark if they think the above is true. Both Meyler and Gibson have done next to nothing at club level compared to Whelan, hence the lack of international level opportunities they've received. On top of that, Whelan in general does a solid job for Ireland in what is a very tough position. I don't think Gibson will ever be defensively strong enough to play in a 2 man mid-field and Meyler has to start playing regularly at club before he can claim a starting spot as well.

Show us your medals Glenn .....