Ireland v Germany

Guffy

Easy Rod wrote: »

Which of my points don't make sense? I just don't think he played overly well.

Was it just me or did he kinda shut off a couple of times when ball sailed over box. One in particular when it went from right to left, I guess he assumed it was going to go out of play

TheCitizen

Forde has done really well since he has come in, he saved us a couple of times v Germany the other night and seems to work well with the centre halfs in front of him and has their confidence. I think people are trying to find reasons for why he doesn't play his club football in the EPL or something.

CSF

Billy86 wrote: »

For a team like Ireland he has been and is a very good player.

Like I said, if you want to claim to know more about Everton than their own fans, and their manager at the time who played him in almost every game, nearly always starting, then feel free. But it reeks of an agenda.

I don't claim to know more than their own fans, I'm saying that this is just a few of their fan's opinions. I could almost certainly find plenty of their own fans who had the opposite opinion, that is how these things work.

josip

Nerdlingr wrote: »

I didnt think the RTE were wrong in anything they were saying last night.
They praised the Irish fighting spirit and the commitment to keep going till the very end.
What they did question was why from the time the game starts, when we are in possession of the ball, can we not pass it to each other like we did in the last 20 mins?
Is it a confidence thing? Do the players / management not trust our ability to get the ball down and string a few passes together?
They werent syaing lets go out and attack Germany from the start. They were saying, when we turn the ball over why do we have to keep lamping it away?
A legitimate question I would have thought.

I'd have thought the answer is fairly obvious. Notwithstanding the substitutions, the Germans scoring a goal was a weight off the Irish shoulders which actually transferred to the German shoulders.

When you go out to get a draw, which invariably means scoreless rather than scoring, the entire mindset of the team is to not make a mistake, not to get caught in posession. Creativity gets stifled in that kind of environment.

Once that fear of making a mistake was lifted, the Irish were mentally free to move the ball around. And the Germans, in the absence of a leader like Schweinsteiger, took on that mental burden, of "don't concede an equaliser".

GBXI

Billy86 wrote: »

24 starts and 2 sub appearances of 27 games is not "fairly regular", it is nailed on, unquestioned first team starter. They year before that he was also starting fairly regularly for them, in 15 of 22 games.

He was injured for all but 3 games of 2013/14, of which he started 2. He only returned 32 days ago after an 11 month layoff so his big challenge at this point is getting into the first team - in that time he has 2 starts, 2 subs appearances, and has been an unused sub 3 times. There's a good chance they are easing him back in after so long off, but he still has a challenge on his hands there. But claiming he wasn't a regular for them because when he was injured is kind of weak - no injured player in the history of any sport has ever played regularly, for obvious reasons.

The only things that Whelan has on Gibson are running around more and "getting stuck in" (both of which Gibson offsets a good deal by having better positioning and discipline), as well as match fitness at this exact point in time. Gibson is better at just about everything else. I don't hate Whelan or anything, he can serve a purpose in some games, but he is simply not as good a player as Gibson.

It is also a weak argument to say that Whelan has had a better career than Gibson to this point - whereas Gibson was able to get into the Man Utd squad for 3 years, at the same age Whelan was in the Championship having been let go by a recently promoted Man City team without getting a single game there. While Gibson was a nailed on starter at Everton by 25, Whelan at that age was not guaranteed a start at Stoke and was only in his second year in the Premiership.

You said he was not a key player at Everton. Those posts from Everton fans who watch them week in, week out completely contradict what you were trying to claim, regardless of if he is indeed better than McCarthy or Arteta or not. But hey, if you want to claim to watch Everton play more than their own fans, to know more about their own team and players than they do, and to claim that starting 24 of 27 games (coming off the bench in two of the other three) is "semi regular" starting, be my guest.

If we agree that Gibson is/was a regular at Everton outside of his injuries, then that's fine, and I'm not denying that he isn't a good footballer. The bit that I have an issue with and the point I am trying to make is that Whelan, in general has been hugely under-rated by vocal element of Irish fans. The bit in bold where you say that all he has on Gibson is that he "runs around more" and "gets stuck in" is typical of the people who under-rate him. He obviously has good positional sense, which is hugely important for all players, but particularly a centre mid. He's also a very decent defensive mid-fielder, i.e. good at breaking up the game. He's no Roy Keane or Michael Carrick, who are/were also very good passers of the ball but he is good at what he does.

I watched the Ireland game in a popular Dublin sports bar this week and there were a number of "fans" who cheered when the screen showed Whelan down injured. I wasn't really embarrassed for them that a fan would celebrate his own player being injured, more so the fact that they have no appreciation for a player who clearly does a better job than most other Irish centre mids. I mean he keeps getting picked for Christ sake! Again, and this answers your last part about the Everton fans, just because some fans watch a lot a football, doesn't mean they have an appreciation for the game worth taking note of.

briany

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Celtic Park will hopefully suit us too.

Much better for fans going to pubs etc too.

Yeah, I think the Scottish FA would be looking to do all they can to avoid any possibility of trouble as well. I'm guessing the Celtic Park would have to be one of the most welcoming for traveling Irish support.

Ranchu

Defensively Whelan is possibly a slightly better choice than Gibson. Going forward there is absolutely no comparison though. When we were playing for a nil all there is an argument for having him there but if we want to attack teams Gibson should get the nod. Either way when McCarthy is back Whelan shouldn't start.

The_Kew_Tour

I think Gibson is equally as good defensively as Whelan . Thought he did well covering the last day when he came on.

Plus Gibson does not have worry about Kroos.

Nerdlingr

josip wrote: »

I'd have thought the answer is fairly obvious. Notwithstanding the substitutions, the Germans scoring a goal was a weight off the Irish shoulders which actually transferred to the German shoulders.

When you go out to get a draw, which invariably means scoreless rather than scoring, the entire mindset of the team is to not make a mistake, not to get caught in posession. Creativity gets stifled in that kind of environment.

Once that fear of making a mistake was lifted, the Irish were mentally free to move the ball around. And the Germans, in the absence of a leader like Schweinsteiger, took on that mental burden, of "don't concede an equaliser".

Why should it though? Thats the question. There's nothing to say that a team that defends well cant use the ball properly when they have the ball.
Thats what the RTE lads were getting at.
We need to change the mindset of panicking on the ball and just kicking it away (Trap era) to actually finding a pass and taking pressure off our back four. Why should it take a goal to change our mindset? Why cant it be "OK. We'll defend well and when we get the ball back lets string a few passes together".
The RTE lads were getting crucified because they were supposedly being negative about the result/performance. I dont think those that criticised them were actually listening to what they were saying and the questions they raised.

briany

Nerdlingr wrote: »

Why should it though? Thats the question. There's nothing to say that a team that defends well cant use the ball properly when they have the ball.
Thats what the RTE lads were getting at.
We need to change the mindset of panicking on the ball and just kicking it away (Trap era) to actually finding a pass and taking pressure off our back four. Why should it take a goal to change our mindset? Why cant it be "OK. We'll defend well and when we get the ball back lets string a few passes together".
The RTE lads were getting crucified because they were supposedly being negative about the result/performance. I dont think those that criticised them were actually listening to what they were saying and the questions they raised.

I have to preface whatever I say about the Germany game with 'great result', because it was, but nobody can really decry the football of the Trapattoni era and defend that performance because for 70 mins it was 'Trap plan A' AKA 'Trap's only plan'. I'll give credit to O'Neill for making positive changes when the time came, but what if the German goal came in the 80th minute? Or the 85th? What if the referee had been a homer? What if that ball went in off the crossbar? Ireland had a huge amount of luck in that game, unmanufactured luck that's in no way sure to come about every game. Ireland also missed chances, but they all basically came after Germany went 1 up. If Germany had taken their chances before then, the Irish resolve would have been broken at 3 nil down.

Nobody's asking the team to play it out from the back or to attack, attack, attack. That would be suicidal. What I think people are asking is for the team to have the confidence to hold onto the ball once in a while instead of needlessly giving it away so they can attempt to soak up yet another wave of attacking pressure. We saw how that tactic ended under Trapattoni. The system got found out when it was properly put to the test and the team's morale crumbled like a house of cards, disturbingly quickly. Do we want to see that happen again?

tayto lover

Can't see Mc Carthy playing against Scotland, his country of birth.
Will be surprised if he's fit.

Nerdlingr

briany wrote: »

I have to preface whatever I say about the Germany game with 'great result', because it was, but nobody can really decry the football of the Trapattoni era and defend that performance because for 70 mins it was 'Trap plan A' AKA 'Trap's only plan'. I'll give credit to O'Neill for making positive changes when the time came, but what if the German goal came in the 80th minute? Or the 85th? What if the referee had been a homer? What if that ball went in off the crossbar? Ireland had a huge amount of luck in that game, unmanufactured luck that's in no way sure to come about every game. Ireland also missed chances, but they all basically came after Germany went 1 up. If Germany had taken their chances before then, the Irish resolve would have been broken at 3 nil down.

Nobody's asking the team to play it out from the back or to attack, attack, attack. That would be suicidal. What I think people are asking is for the team to have the confidence to hold onto the ball once in a while instead of needlessly giving it away so they can attempt to soak up yet another wave of attacking pressure. We saw how that tactic ended under Trapattoni. The system got found out when it was properly put to the test and the team's morale crumbled like a house of cards, disturbingly quickly. Do we want to see that happen again?

Thats my point (and the RTE lads' point) entirely.
Some people seem to think that just because we may have a defensive mindset in the way the team is set up away from home it gives us a free pass to be sloppy in possession. It doesnt.
As I said in a previous post, what we're all looking for is an end to the era of just hoofing the ball away first chance we get, to seeing some signs of progression on the possession front.
There's no reason why, when we get the ball in the first minute, to not to try and pass it to a teammate, no matter what formation, mindset or opposition you have.

Ranchu

tayto lover wrote: »

Can't see Mc Carthy playing against Scotland, his country of birth.
Will be surprised if he's fit.

https://twitter.com/jmccarthy_16/status/522409059056906241

That's not the tweet of a worried man.

briany

tayto lover wrote: »

Can't see Mc Carthy playing against Scotland, his country of birth.
Will be surprised if he's fit.

Or, just to really rub it in, he plays, scores a hat trick, and to celebrate the 3rd goal him and Aiden McGeady run over to opposite corner flags and put on this mask,




Too Far?