Squad Prediction for November test(s)

S12b

What level of rotation are people expecting for the Georgia match? Wholesale changes or just a few?

Two things I'd love to see:
* Marmion start with Sexton
* an Olding/McCloskey + Henshaw midfield

Our first choice front row to be given a rest. With Healy and Moore out, McGrath and Ross are vital and need to be minded. I see no advantage to risking Rory Best for Georgia and Sean Cronin will have played a huge amount of rugby by mid November so give him the week off.

Therefore pick a front row and bench from the following:
Cronin, Kilcoyne, Buckley
Strauss, Casey
Furlong, White, Ah You

former legend

Podge_irl wrote: »

Well I don't think I was one of them (though I'm not sure!).

I'm not saying it's pointless playing D'Arcy though, I'm saying it's a waste to not give other players opportunities. There is a difference, albeit a subtle one. I have no problem with D'Arcy being the front-runner at the moment but if history has taught us anything it is that the drop in form of older players can be rather precipitous.

Sorry, I see now that it was in response to D'Arcy playing all three games. Yeah, that wouldn't be very wise at all.

Utah_Saint

Podge_irl wrote: »

While I could somewhat understand the logic I think that would be a complete waste. I think there is a very good chance either or both of Olding and McCloskey could be better options a year from now.

We really need to start looking at this option of the two Ulster lads. Payne is not a 13 but is slowly playing himself into form. Henshaw has been talked about being a 13 for a few years probably due to his athletic ability, but i'm not completely convinced.


Whatever happens i believe Olding is too good to leave out of any Ireland squad these days....

former legend

Utah_Saint wrote: »

We really need to start looking at this option of the two Ulster lads. Payne is not a 13 but is slowly playing himself into form. Henshaw has been talked about being a 13 for a few years probably due to his athletic ability, but i'm not completely convinced.


Whatever happens i believe Olding is too good to leave out of any Ireland squad these days....

Even if he's not good enough to be in the Ulster team??

Has Olding ever played a game of pro rugby at 13?

Utah_Saint

former legend wrote: »

Even if he's not good enough to be in the Ulster team??

Has Olding ever played a game of pro rugby at 13?

Olding not starting can be attributed to a number of factors:

Controlled return from a major injury
Cover from the bench for PJ or iHumph
McCloskey offering a larger presence in the inside channel (defensively)
IRFU insistence on playing Payne at 13 limiting the options of Center partnerships.

McCloskey is a great center but Olding is the most talented back i've seen Ireland produce since BoD.

But all players playing ahead of Olding @ Ulster are Irish eligible.

Remember when Ryan was starting ahead of DOC @ Munster and benching behind him for Kidney? Didn't make sense to any of us either.

Olding needs to force himself into the Ulster side to get international caps given that all of Payne, McCloskey, Marshall and Cave are Irish eligible.

b.gud

Here's the 23 I think we'll see against South Africa.

1. McGrath
2. Best
3. Ross
4. Toner
5. O'Connell
6. POM
7. Henry
8. Heaslip
9. Murray
10. Sexton
11. Trimble
12. D'Arcy
13. Henshaw
14. Bowe
15. Kearney

16. Cronin
17. Kilcoyne
18. White
19. McCarthy
20. Ruddock
21. Reddan
22. Jackson
23. Payne

Henshaw at 13 and Reddan over Marmion on the bench are probably the only 2 selection that are different to what most people expect to see for the game. The reason I went for Henshaw to start is that I think that JS* has him slightly above Payne in the pecking order based on the amount of time he's had in camp with Joe and his systems. I know that here the general consensus is that Marmion has over taken Reddan, but there seems to be a few areas that Joe still wants Marmion to improve on before he Joe shares our opinion.

*I could be very wrong on this as we've often seen we can be way off when trying to guess his thinking

eltonio

molloyjh wrote: »

|South Africa||Georgia||Australia
01.|McGrath|01.|Kilcoyne|01.|McGrath
02.|Best|02.|Cronin|02.|Best
03.|Ross|03.|Fitzpatrick|03.|Ross
04.|Toner|04.|Toner|04.|Toner
05.|O'Connell|05.|Foley|05.|O'Connell
06.|Ruddock|06.|O'Mahony|06.|O'Mahony
07.|Henry|07.|O'Donnell|07.|Henry
08.|Heaslip|08.|Heaslip|08.|Heaslip
|||||
09.|Murray|09.|Marmion|09.|Murray
10.|Sexton|10.|Jackson|10.|Sexton
11.|Trimble|11.|Zebo|11.|Trimble
12.|D'Arcy|12.|D'Arcy|12.|D'Arcy
13.|Payne|13.|Henshaw|13.|Payne/Henshaw
14.|Bowe|14.|Bowe/Trimble|14.|Bowe
15.|R Kearney|15.|R Kearney|15.|R Kearney
|||||
16.|Cronin|16.|Casey|16.|Cronin
17.|Kilcoyne|17.|McGrath|17.|Kilcoyne
18.|Fitzpatrick|18.|Ross|18.|Fitzpatrick
19.|McCarthy|19.|McCarthy|19.|McCarthy
20.|O'Mahony|20.|Ruddock|20.|Ruddock
21.|Marmion|21.|Murray|21.|Marmion
22.|Jackson|22.|Madigan|22.|Jackson
23.|Zebo|23.|McCloskey|23.|Zebo

There's no way he's gonna start D'Arcy in all three tests. In fact i'd be
surprised if any player starts all three. Would be interesting to see
Payne start at 15 in the Georgia game.

molloyjh

eltonio wrote: »

There's no way he's gonna start D'Arcy in all three tests. In fact i'd be
surprised if any player starts all three. Would be interesting to see
Payne start at 15 in the Georgia game.

If we are looking at 2 different 13s it would be difficult to fully judge either next to a new 12. We need a certain amount of stability inside Payne/Henshaw so that we can get a good proper look at both. It's the most important position for us right now as we can't afford to still have question marks over it during the 6 Nations.

Giving a 12 (Olding or McCloskey) some time off the bench in one or more games might be a runner but that seriously limits our options on the bench if we do. While Madigan might add some necessary versatility to accommodate it we also need to get Jackson game time as he is without doubt our number 2 out half. That's why I've gone with the selection I have for the Georgia game.

The Pheasant2

eltonio wrote: »

There's no way he's gonna start D'Arcy in all three tests. In fact i'd be
surprised if any player starts all three. Would be interesting to see
Payne start at 15 in the Georgia game.

I'd be surprised to see Payne at 15 tbh, I think he'll have to pick a position (13) and stick to it for this series at least

stephen_n

molloyjh wrote: »

|South Africa||Georgia||Australia
01.|McGrath|01.|Kilcoyne|01.|McGrath
02.|Best|02.|Cronin|02.|Best
03.|Ross|03.|Fitzpatrick|03.|Ross
04.|Toner|04.|Toner|04.|Toner
05.|O'Connell|05.|Foley|05.|O'Connell
06.|Ruddock|06.|O'Mahony|06.|O'Mahony
07.|Henry|07.|O'Donnell|07.|Henry
08.|Heaslip|08.|Heaslip|08.|Heaslip
|||||
09.|Murray|09.|Marmion|09.|Murray
10.|Sexton|10.|Jackson|10.|Sexton
11.|Trimble|11.|Zebo|11.|Trimble
12.|D'Arcy|12.|D'Arcy|12.|D'Arcy
13.|Payne|13.|Henshaw|13.|Payne/Henshaw
14.|Bowe|14.|Bowe/Trimble|14.|Bowe
15.|R Kearney|15.|R Kearney|15.|R Kearney
|||||
16.|Cronin|16.|Casey|16.|Cronin
17.|Kilcoyne|17.|McGrath|17.|Kilcoyne
18.|Fitzpatrick|18.|Ross|18.|Fitzpatrick
19.|McCarthy|19.|McCarthy|19.|McCarthy
20.|O'Mahony|20.|Ruddock|20.|Ruddock
21.|Marmion|21.|Murray|21.|Marmion
22.|Jackson|22.|Madigan|22.|Jackson
23.|Zebo|23.|McCloskey|23.|Zebo

Think I'd prefer for Marmion to start with Sexton.

molloyjh

stephen_n wrote: »

Think I'd prefer for Marmion to start with Sexton.

If we can dominate the Georgian pack I'm not sure it really matters who the half back partners are tbh. Against SA and Aus we may well not be able to afford either of them much game time. By starting both against Georgia we can balance that out. Unless we do one half Murray-Jackson and the second half Marmion-Sexton or something like that?

.ak

Trimble's toe is still at him I see. Hopefully he gets round 2 in, otherwise it'll be Zebo and Bowe starting, and whilst I think both of them are Ace players I don't think they're in their best form right now.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

Trimble's toe is still at him I see. Hopefully he gets round 2 in, otherwise it'll be Zebo and Bowe starting, and whilst I think both of them are Ace players I don't think they're in their best form right now.

I read that he'll miss both European games but will be back for the AIs.

.ak

Hard to see him starting then if that's the case.

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

Hard to see him starting then if that's the case.

I dunno about that. He'll only miss 3-4 weeks and his form prior to that was really good. Given his form in the 6 Nations if he can show up in training he'll almost certainly be a shoe in. And deservedly so.

.ak

Yeah just you know what Joe is like regarding momentum and game time etc.

stephen_n

molloyjh wrote: »

If we can dominate the Georgian pack I'm not sure it really matters who the half back partners are tbh. Against SA and Aus we may well not be able to afford either of them much game time. By starting both against Georgia we can balance that out. Unless we do one half Murray-Jackson and the second half Marmion-Sexton or something like that?

True enough but that's a big if against the Georgian pack and the injuries we have.

The Pheasant2

I don't think it's worth the risk starting Sexton against Georgia just for the sake of giving Marmion time with him - there'll be plenty of opportunity for that during the 6N

Tox56

bilston wrote: »

I heard, and hopefully it's wrong, that we won't we see Trimble again in 2014.

Massive blow for Ulster and would have definitely started for Ireland. But it goes to show the problem with predicting teams for AIs/WC/6N's so far out, Trimble got his chance through injury and Zebo (im guessing?) will get his now if this is true.

CatFromHue

If you take it that the irish qualified wingers starting this weekend are: Bowe, Gilroy, Fanning, Conway, Zebo, Poolman (I think) and Healy.

Conway, Gilroy, Fanning, and Healy wouldn't be in the frame really so it looks good for Zebo and Poolman.

The Pheasant2

CatFromHue wrote: »

If you take it that the irish qualified wingers starting this weekend are: Bowe, Gilroy, Fanning, Conway, Zebo, Poolman (I think) and Healy.

Conway, Gilroy, Fanning, and Healy wouldn't be in the frame really so it looks good for Zebo and Poolman.

You really think Poolman is ahead of Gilroy?

connachta

CatFromHue wrote: »

If you take it that the irish qualified wingers starting this weekend are: Bowe, Gilroy, Fanning, Conway, Zebo, Poolman (I think) and Healy.

Conway, Gilroy, Fanning, and Healy wouldn't be in the frame really so it looks good for Zebo and Poolman.

No, Poolman IQ in Sept 2015

CatFromHue

I would have ranked him currently yeah but if he's not IQ it doesn't matter.

I haven't been impressed with Gilroy much this season and can't see him being really considered for the Ireland team.

errlloyd

I get to do my favourite thing for the next 3 weeks and be optimistic about Luke Fitzgerald.

former legend

errlloyd wrote: »

I get to do my favourite thing for the next 3 weeks48 hours and be optimistic about Luke Fitzgerald.

FYP

leakyboots

Surprised people are not putting James Cronin ahead of Killer, Cronin looks the real deal. Better scrummager and an absolute animal in the loose. Killer still has issues in the scrum, superb in the loose as well.

We're (Munster... and Ireland) blessed with loosies at the moment.

bilston

leakyboots wrote: »

Surprised people are not putting James Cronin ahead of Killer, Cronin looks the real deal. Better scrummager and an absolute animal in the loose. Killer still has issues in the scrum, superb in the loose as well.

We're (Munster... and Ireland) blessed with loosies at the moment.

It will be interesting to see how Ulster get on against Leicester and Toulon on the scrum but on early season Pro 12 form Andy Warwick is another who at the very least deserves a mention. He was really impressive against Glasgow last weekend.

Fireball07

leakyboots wrote: »

Surprised people are not putting James Cronin ahead of Killer, Cronin looks the real deal. Better scrummager and an absolute animal in the loose. Killer still has issues in the scrum, superb in the loose as well.

We're (Munster... and Ireland) blessed with loosies at the moment.

Looks like they're going to be rotated regularly at club level, both are class though. Cronin is a stronger scrummager, better at the breakdown, but has discipline issues at times. Killer is just pure power in the loose, and very physical in attack and defence.

Zzippy

leakyboots wrote: »

Surprised people are not putting James Cronin ahead of Killer, Cronin looks the real deal. Better scrummager and an absolute animal in the loose. Killer still has issues in the scrum, superb in the loose as well.

We're (Munster... and Ireland) blessed with loosies at the moment.

God be with the days of Marcus Horan, and ummmm....yeah, that was it!

dub_skav

Zzippy wrote: »

God be with the days of Marcus Horan, and ummmm....yeah, that was it!

Don't forgot our other LH hero:

leakyboots

bilston wrote: »

It will be interesting to see how Ulster get on against Leicester and Toulon on the scrum but on early season Pro 12 form Andy Warwick is another who at the very least deserves a mention. He was really impressive against Glasgow last weekend.

Haven't heard of him, must keep an eye out!

bilston

leakyboots wrote: »

Haven't heard of him, must keep an eye out!

He is very well in the scrum, wouldn't be as obvious in the loose as Healy or Kilcoyne but better than say Court. There are others who will be ahead of him at this stage like the Munster guys you mentioned so he may have to wait his turn but he is definitely a guy with a very promising future.

It's scary to think how many good LHs we have now. Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne, Cronin, Buckley and Warwick et al. And the best thing is they are all young guys. It's a proper feast right now.

stephen_n

bilston wrote: »

He is very well in the scrum, wouldn't be as obvious in the loose as Healy or Kilcoyne but better than say Court. There are others who will be ahead of him at this stage like the Munster guys you mentioned so he may have to wait his turn but he is definitely a guy with a very promising future.

It's scary to think how many good LHs we have now. Healy, McGrath, Kilcoyne, Cronin, Buckley and Warwick et al. And the best thing is they are all young guys. It's a proper feast right now.

:pac::pac:

seems to come in cycles, the only thing we don't have a lot of is 13's and maybe 9's

Fireball07

stephen_n wrote: »

:pac::pac:

seems to come in cycles, the only thing we don't have a lot of is 13's and maybe 9's

8s?

And we're not overflowing with locks like we once were.

Fireball07

McCloskey might be callow, but starting at 12 for Ulster in a pretty much full-strength team must strengthen his case for a place in the squad.

Reid also starting for Leinster... they have all their centres available as far as I'm aware. (Obviously Teo'o, but he's only just signed). Reid's direct competition might be Macken but he's come on a long way recently... and he's better than Madigan at 12.

bilston

Fireball07 wrote: »

McCloskey might be callow, but starting at 12 for Ulster in a pretty much full-strength team must strengthen his case for a place in the squad.

Reid also starting for Leinster... they have all their centres available as far as I'm aware. (Obviously Teo'o, but he's only just signed). Reid's direct competition might be Macken but he's come on a long way recently... and he's better than Madigan at 12.

If McCloskey comes through battles with Tuilagi and Basteraud in flying colours then he has to be considered callow or not but realistically will he shift D'Arcy in the short term? The only way he will get in is if D'Arcy moves to 13 which is possible given he is playing there for Leinster

Tox56

Fireball07 wrote: »

8s?

And we're not overflowing with locks like we once were.

I wouldn't say POC, Toner, Henderson, Tuohy, Foley, McCarthy is particularly bad.

The 8 situation is a weird one. Im not even worried about jinxing it when I say Heaslip just never gets injured, he might as well be 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice, his resilience is incredible and you can be pretty much certain he will be available at all times

bilston

Tox56 wrote: »

I wouldn't say POC, Toner, Henderson, Tuohy, Foley, McCarthy is particularly bad.

The 8 situation is a weird one. Im not even worried about jinxing it when I say Heaslip just never gets injured, he might as well be 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice, his resilience is incredible and you can be pretty much certain he will be available at all times

As he gets older though he may become more injury prone, plus the fact he is what 31? means we could probably do with someone emerging quite soon.

The Pheasant2

I know he's stuck behind Heaslip at Leinster but I would love to see Jordi Murphy get more time at 8, it's by far his best position as he gets to do a bit more carrying - he's got an eye for the try line too being Leinster's top try scorer last season

leakyboots

Any merit to the argument of giving Duncan Casey a shout v Georgia?

There was a stat before/during the Leinster game that he's hit something like 40/41 lineouts this season, he's played two matches since and hasn't missed one since. Must be the most in-form thrower in world rugby now. 13 tackles the other night v Sale too. Haven't seen that level of throwing accuracy since Flannery was in his pomp. Contrast with the lineout issues you sometimes get with the likes of Varley, Best, Cronin (who all offer other qualities around the pitch has to be said) is it not worth rewarding form?

thomond2006

If not a start then a cap off the bench.

How did Casey and Zebo get on at the weekend? I only had one eye on the Munster match

bilston

Trying to think of an Irish XV from the weekend. Hard enough.

15 Jones
14 Conway
13 Payne
12 D'Arcy (no stand out 12s so moved him here)
11 Fanning
10 Sexton
9 Murray
1 McGrath
2 Casey
3 Bent
4 Foley
5 O'Connell
6 Ruddock/O'Mahony (impossible to call)
7 Ryan
8 Heaslip

Some interesting names in there.

leakyboots

Jones is a fella who I haven't rated that much since his injuries, so much so I wanted Zebo or a.n.other at fullback but he's been in blistering form this season and is back to beating fellas with pace/tenacity. Really throws himself into tackles too. Dave Foley too has really impressed, nice bit of dog about him - outperformed POC the other day.

molloyjh

bilston wrote: »

Trying to think of an Irish XV from the weekend. Hard enough.

15 Jones
14 Conway
13 Payne
12 D'Arcy (no stand out 12s so moved him here)
11 Fanning
10 Sexton
9 Murray
1 McGrath
2 Casey
3 Bent
4 Foley
5 O'Connell
6 Ruddock/O'Mahony (impossible to call)
7 Ryan
8 Heaslip

Some interesting names in there.

I'd be inclined to move POM to 7 and have Ruddock at 6 in the above case. POM may not be an openside, but neither is Ryan.

Buer

Well, based on this weekend, Heaslip and POM have nothing to be concerned about. Class is permanent.

McGrath is pretty much nailed on at loosehead. Casey is giving real food for thought at hooker. Dave Foley is quietly putting himself into the frame. Murray needs to be wrapped in cotton wool.

And Jonathan Sexton is head and shoulders above any other option still. He was a one man back line for Racing. He slithers through half gaps for fun. Northampton could not deal with him. I was not happy to see yet another side try and take him out with a high hit to the facial area. The bloke will have that jaw broken for a 3rd time before he retires, I'm sure.

bilston

leakyboots wrote: »

Jones is a fella who I haven't rated that much since his injuries, so much so I wanted Zebo or a.n.other at fullback but he's been in blistering form this season and is back to beating fellas with pace/tenacity. Really throws himself into tackles too. Dave Foley too has really impressed, nice bit of dog about him - outperformed POC the other day.

I've never been entirely convinced by Jones myself but I've been impressed on the couple of times I've seen him this season. He seems to have a prominent leadership role within the Munster squad and this seems to be agreeing with him. I thought he played well on Sat.

bilston

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd be inclined to move POM to 7 and have Ruddock at 6 in the above case. POM may not be an openside, but neither is Ryan.

I suppose that is fair given I did it with the centres.

accidentprone1

bilston wrote: »

Trying to think of an Irish XV from the weekend. Hard enough.

15 Jones
14 Conway
13 Payne
12 D'Arcy (no stand out 12s so moved him here)
11 Fanning
10 Sexton
9 Murray
1 McGrath
2 Casey
3 Bent
4 Foley
5 O'Connell
6 Ruddock/O'Mahony (impossible to call)
7 Ryan
8 Heaslip

Some interesting names in there.

Actually a good idea to form a team from a weekend of matches. It's interesting how different it's looks to what we'll actually see.