New footbridge

zulutango

@cookiemunster I haven't seen the article in the Leader where he says the bridge will go from Shannon Rowing Club. If it's true, surely that makes even less sense than running it from Arthur's Quay, from a utility point of view. And I'd be very surprised if Shannon Rowing Club are on board with that plan.

Just did a google search and a previous Leader article, published 24 February, says it will actually go from Arthur's Quay Park. Either Noonan is wrong, or he's misinformed, or the plan has changed.

If it goes from Arthur's Quay Park it will be an obstruction to boating traffic in every direction, unless there is a high span element, or an opening element, but you're getting into serious overkill by going down that route.

As for the structural issue, again I would say Noonan is wrong or misinformed on this. While I'm not a structural engineer, I am an engineer and have spent my whole career involved in infrastructural projects, some big, some not so big. It's an educated guess that the weir on its own will not support a bridge and to the best of my knowledge it was not designed to do so. I would welcome the input of those more knowledgeable in this area than I.

I can't see any justification at all for this project. We're talking about spending a few million euro for something that was never looked for by anyone and the benefits to the city are vague and sketchy at best. I'd ask you to stand back and think about that. This project has come from nowhere, there's no development plan which supports it. If there is a feasibility study, we haven't seen it. This is not how local government should work and not the way a progressive city should be run. It's backward and amateur and it stinks to high heaven.

Vanquished

This is the relevant part of the article in question.

It's a nice idea in theory but the practicality and merits of it are highly dubious! There are so many other projects in Limerick that have been awaiting funding for years and are far more deserving of €6 million than somebody's pet project that's just been plucked out of thin air all of a sudden!

Limerick Leader wrote:

Budget 2015: Noonan approves €6m for city pedestrian bridge

by Mike Dwane

WILLIE O’Dea may have observed this week that Fianna Fail has no messiah but Michael Noonan’s latest Budget should have us all walking on water within a couple of years.

The Minister for Finance said he had allocated €6m to the Failte Ireland for the development of a footbridge that will link Shannon Rowing Club to Merchant’s Quay, part of a wider tourism investment linking the city’s three bridges with pedestrian walkways.

The bridge will follow the weir to the rear of the Hunt Museum and Sarsfield House and was a project that Failte Ireland was enthusiastically behind, according to the minister. “I am providing €6m towards the cost of that. That wall there at the back of the Hunt Museum is keeping in millions of tonnes of water so the foundation is extraordinarily strong – and it is strong enough to take a pedestrian bridge on top of it. We have made provision for €6 million – €3 million in 2015 and €3 million in 2016.

“That will go through Failte Ireland’s capital fund. Failte Ireland think it is a very good project and it is either at the top or very near the top of the projects they want to fund,” the minister told the Leader.

More capital funding on the way to Limerick as a consequence of Budget 2015 will allow for the expansion of library facilities at the the minister revealed. “We have also made provision for €10 million for the library at UL. They are building a big extension to the library there and that will come out of the education capital fund and go a good distance towards it,” he said.

Johnny_BravoIII

How do you build a footbridge at river height?
I've seen the abbey river almost hit the potatoe market bridge last winter when they had to turn on all 4 turbines in ardnacrusha.

If a footbridge is built from Shannon Rowing club to the court-house, does this not pen in the boats that park in the jetty outside Sarsfield house? Also around the back of Island?

Didn't the guy from Kilaloe adventure centre run river-based history tours during the summer which brought tourists around the island? Much like the successful river lee tours in cork city?

Is there long term potential in this type of city based river tourism?
Is there long-term in potential in getting more summer cruisers to view Limerick city as a last stop, in much the same way Carrick-on-Shannon is viewed to northern cruiser tourism?

Would a flat footbridge which runs across the entrance of the abbey kill any ideas re the above?
For what purpose?

Realistically can this get through?
Ultimately are we talking about a continuation of the boardwalk from the spaights around arthurs quay park to connect with the potatoe market bridge?

pigtown

Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »

How do you build a footbridge at river height?
I've seen the abbey river almost hit the potatoe market bridge last winter when they had to turn on all 4 turbines in ardnacrusha.

While nobody has seen any plans and I'm sure the 'walking on water' quote was metaphorical, a bridge designed along the lines of a jetty, which rises and falls with the height of the water, wouldn't be too difficult to design.
Obviously it would need to be closed in periods of high tide/flood, just like the boardwalks are.

Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »

If a footbridge is built from Shannon Rowing club to the court-house, does this not pen in the boats that park in the jetty outside Sarsfield house? Also around the back of Island?

They could still use the lock at Sarsfield Bridge.

Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »

Didn't the guy from Kilaloe adventure centre run river-based history tours during the summer which brought tourists around the island? Much like the successful river lee tours in cork city?
Is there long term potential in this type of city based river tourism?
Is there long-term in potential in getting more summer cruisers to view Limerick city as a last stop, in much the same way Carrick-on-Shannon is viewed to northern cruiser tourism?

I'm no boating expert but I do know that the approach to Limerick is quite difficult, especially around the Abbey River. I would love to see the river tourism industry grow, and think a hovercraft service to Bunratty or Foynes in the summer would be great. Either way, the lock would still be operational.

Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »

Would a flat footbridge which runs across the entrance of the abbey kill any ideas re the above?
For what purpose?

I don't think so. I'm sure the relevant stakeholders wouldn't permit a bridge that blocks access to the river.

Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »

Realistically can this get through?

It's got the support of the Government and Fáilte Ireland, and probably the council. It also has €6 million funding. I think it can get through.

Johnny_BravoIII wrote: »

Ultimately are we talking about a continuation of the boardwalk from the spaights around arthurs quay park to connect with the potatoe market bridge?

From what I understand it would involve a bridge running from the back garden of Shannon Rowing Clubhouse, along the weir wall, and reaching Merchant's Quay, probably just before the courthouse. It would also require a short bridge from the back of Dunne's to the clubhouse island.

Effectively it would be a continuation of the new boardwalk.

Vanquished

pigtown wrote: »

It's got the support of the Government and Fáilte Ireland, and probably the council. It also has €6 million funding. I think it can get through.

Oh well sure if the government are all for it. Who are we to question them?!

They know what's best for us after all!

pigtown

Vanquished wrote: »

Oh well sure if the government are all for it. Who are we to question them?!

They know what's best for us after all!

If you read my full post you'll see I never mentioned anything about not questioning them. Just that the project has substantial support.

zulutango

Has anybody got a subscription to the Sunday Business Post? There's an article there written by Michael Brennan, political correspondent, with more detail on the bridge. I've retyped the article below in full.

There is so much ráiméis in it, it's hard to know where to begin. It's clear that a lot of money is going to be thrown at this before planning stage.

The Sunday Business Post wrote:

One of Minister for Finance Michael Noonan's budget surprises was a €6 million grant for a pedestrian bridge for his native Limerick City.

It will stretch over the Shannon for 100 metres, allowing people to walk from Arthur's Quay to King John's Castle in the medieval quarter to the city's commercial core at Arthur's Quay.

Although the footbridge was not included in Noonan's budget speech or in the main budget documentation, he made sure to announce it to his local newspaper, the Limerick Leader, afterwards.

The project is backed by Fáilte Ireland, which sees it as a way of increasing the attractiveness of Limerick City to tourists. A Fáite Ireland spokesman said it would have a "wow factor" and would link up several tourist attractions within walking distance. It is intended to be a way of promoting the city to tourists flying into Shannon Airport to drive on the Wild Atlantic Way.

Limerick Council also pushed the case for the footbridge on the grounds of social regeneration. It will provide a further connection to the St. Mary's Park estate in King's Island, which is one of the poorest parts of the city.

According to a business case drawn up by the council, the footbridge will cost between €7.5 million and €16 million, so private donations will be required. However, the council has pledged to make up any shortfall.

A council spokeswoman said it hoped to go to tender by the end of the year for the design process for the footbridge.

zulutango

This is a scam, pure and simple.

This is a project that has never been looked for, by anybody, that doesn't come under any plan by the city council, that no business case exists for, that we've heard only vague, woolly or crazily inaccurate justifications for, yet €6 million is going to be spent on it in the next two years, with the total cost estimated as being up to €17 million!!

It looks like there's a big rush to spend the money too. I suppose the design team are already appointed, maybe the main contractor too, but we'll have the usual palaver about fair, open and transparent tendering process!

Vanquished

pigtown wrote: »

If you read my full post you'll see I never mentioned anything about not questioning them. Just that the project has substantial support.

It doesn't have substantial support! That's a completely inaccurate statement! It's been pushed by some mandarins in Failte Ireland and Limerick Council with Noonan jumping on the bandwagon for political purposes!

Is it really any wonder that genuinely beneficial civic infrastructural, improvement projects take an eternity to be delivered in this country?! When they're constantly seeking to re-invent the wheel!

Once again the local council have got their priorities totally arseways!

pigtown

Vanquished wrote: »

It doesn't have substantial support! That's a completely inaccurate statement! It's been pushed by some mandarins in Failte Ireland and Limerick Council with Noonan jumping on the bandwagon for political purposes!

Well it's got the backing of the national government. It was specifically mentioned in the most important bill of the year which is supposed to have unanimous buy-in from the entire Cabinet.

It's got the support of the local government. I vaguely remember the council CEO (effectively the boss) give an interview about this a few months ago. And it's unlikely that the council will reject this project.

It's also got the support of Fáilte Ireland, and while I don't know how influential they are their support is certainly welcome, especially as they think it will boost the city's image among tourists.

Vanquished wrote: »

Once again the local council have got their priorities totally arseways!

What do you think should be the priority?

Vanquished

zulutango wrote: »

Limerick Council also pushed the case for the footbridge on the grounds of social regeneration. It will provide a further connection to the St. Mary's Park estate in King's Island, which is one of the poorest parts of the city.

That has to be one of the most tenuous and laughable justifications for a project ever!

A few short years ago the masterplan was to completely level St. Mary's Park. Now though it's providing some inspiration for a fancy new river footbridge that will magically assist in easing it's isolation and deprivation despite being the bones of a kilometre away! You couldn't make this stuff up!

chicorytip

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

This was discussed on here before.

I think it'll really detract from the view across the Shannon from Clancy's Strand. Not to mention, it just bypasses Nicholas Street instead of trying to improve it.

It's probably afraid of being mugged.

zulutango

pigtown wrote: »

Well it's got the backing of the national government. It was specifically mentioned in the most important bill of the year which is supposed to have unanimous buy-in from the entire Cabinet.

Ah, here. Seriously? You're making it sound like the government have a considered view on this. It's simply Noonan abusing his position of power. I wonder did Jan O'Sullivan, or even Noonan's FG constituency colleague, Kieran O'Donnell, know much about it before the announcement?

pigtown wrote: »

It's got the support of the local government. I vaguely remember the council CEO (effectively the boss) give an interview about this a few months ago. And it's unlikely that the council will reject this project.

Maybe the city manager is supportive, but what kind of endorsement is that? The man is from County Meath, has spent many years until recently in Louth, and he doesn't even live in the city!! In his innocence he may think this is a positive proposal for Limerick. It's not.

pigtown wrote: »

It's also got the support of Fáilte Ireland, and while I don't know how influential they are their support is certainly welcome, especially as they think it will boost the city's image among tourists.

I'd like to see a considered feasibility study for this proposal. Was there any kind of research done into whether this is the best use of scarce resources (from the point of view of encouraging tourism to Limerick)? This is a boon for the construction industry, and increasing tourism is being used as the excuse to hand a few million euro to consultants and contractors.

pigtown wrote: »

What do you think should be the priority?

The council should follow its own plan. This has never been mentioned in any document up to now. Deviating from the plan on the whim of some politician or egotistical senior local government official is the kind of backward management that has left us with so many problems in Limerick, and Ireland.

Pedestrianise O'Connell Street. Refurbish Nicholas Street. Proceed with Limerick 2030. Let's not pursue this white elephant / vanity project, which we'll live to regret.

Vanquished

pigtown wrote: »

Well it's got the backing of the national government. It was specifically mentioned in the most important bill of the year which is supposed to have unanimous buy-in from the entire Cabinet.

I'd wager that in a document like the budget that catalogues the distribution of billions of Euro to a wide variety of projects across multiple government departments. The inclusion of a funding mechanism for a footbridge here probably didn't even register with non Limerick TD's!

What do you think should be the priority?

How about focusing on promoting and rehabilitating the city centre, assisting in attracting new retailers, incentivising the refurbishment and re-use of the city's Georgian building stock, advancing the project to finally make Limericks main street somewhat presentable? Ditto for the likes of the Crescent and Pery Square. There are so many more worthy projects out there!

pigtown

zulutango wrote: »

Ah, here. Seriously? You're making it sound like the government have a considered view on this. It's simply Noonan abusing his position of power. I wonder did Jan O'Sullivan, or even Noonan's FG constituency colleague, Kieran O'Donnell, know much about it before the announcement?

Look, you have clearly chosen to be cynical about this. Maybe you're right. I've chosen to be optimistic. Maybe I'm right. Who knows?

zulutango wrote: »

Maybe the city manager is supportive, but what kind of endorsement is that? The man is from County Meath, has spent many years until recently in Louth, and he doesn't even live in the city!! In his innocence he may think this is a positive proposal for Limerick. It's not.

So only people who are from Limerick and live in the city could possibly know what's good for the place? Where's the logic in that?

zulutango wrote: »

I'd like to see a considered feasibility study for this proposal. Was there any kind of research done into whether this is the best use of scarce resources (from the point of view of encouraging tourism to Limerick)?

I don't know. Probably, otherwise they'd find it hard to justify handing over the money. The funding is coming through Fáilte Ireland so it must have to meet some criteria.

zulutango wrote: »

This is a boon for the construction industry, and increasing tourism is being used as the excuse to hand a few million euro to consultants and contractors.

Again, you're being very cynical here. Why would Michael Noonan want to hand out millions to some as yet to be hired contractors? EU rules mean it will have to go to tender so it's not like he can just choose who will get the job. I'm not sure what the story is with consultants. I think the government has a list of approved consultancy companies that they can give work to.

zulutango wrote: »

The council should follow its own plan. This has never been mentioned in any document up to now. Deviating from the plan on the whim of some politician or egotistical senior local government official is the kind of backward management that has left us with so many problems in Limerick, and Ireland.

I fully agree that the 2030 plan should be pursued but this bridge wouldn't exactly hurt 2030. It will enhance that riverside area, the biggest stated aim of the plan.

zulutango wrote: »

Pedestrianise O'Connell Street. Refurbish Nicholas Street. Proceed with Limerick 2030. Let's not pursue this white elephant / vanity project, which we'll live to regret.

All good ideas. I don't know how you can be so sure about the 'vanity project' and claims that we'll live to regret it. Why would we regret it?

zulutango

That's true, I am being cynical. Would you blame me?! I think there's fair cause to be. This is the same Council that hasn't exactly covered itself in glory in recent years.

It just beggars belief that so much money (up to €17 million according to the Sunday Business Post) is going to be directed at a project that nobody, literally nobody, in the city ever looked for, and this money is going to be given ahead of so many far more deserving projects that the Council is supposed to be pursuing!!

Notwithstanding that, there's a rush to spend the money with €3 million earmarked for 2015. That will almost entirely go to consultants who will carry out a detailed design. So, they're going full steam ahead with detailed design before they're having any consultation with stakeholders, on a project that was never mooted and nobody has looked for, and the justification for is (at best) completely wishy-washy. Forgive me for being cynical, but this is downright gross mismanagement of our city.

pigtown

zulutango wrote: »

That's true, I am being cynical. Would you blame me?!

Nope. It's very easy to be cynical about officialdom in this country. I find that I'm in less of a bad mood since I decided to try to be more optimistic though.

Vanquished

zulutango wrote: »

That's true, I am being cynical. Would you blame me?! I think there's fair cause to be. This is the same Council that hasn't exactly covered itself in glory in recent years.

It just beggars belief that so much money (up to €17 million according to the Sunday Business Post) is going to be directed at a project that nobody, literally nobody, in the city ever looked for, and this money is going to be given ahead of so many far more deserving projects that the Council is supposed to be pursuing!!

Notwithstanding that, there's a rush to spend the money with €3 million earmarked for 2015. That will almost entirely go to consultants who will carry out a detailed design. So, they're going full steam ahead with detailed design before they're having any consultation with stakeholders, on a project that was never mooted and nobody has looked for, and the justification for is (at best) completely wishy-washy. Forgive me for being cynical, but this is downright gross mismanagement of our city.

Totally agree. And of course if the project doesn't receive An Bord Pleanala approval all those millions that were spent on the planning and design are lost forever. Just like the children's hospital at the Mater, the new prison at Thornton Hall and the decentralisation debacle!

Tendering processes are easily manipulated and are often just a smokescreen.

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

That's true, I am being cynical. Would you blame me?! I think there's fair cause to be. This is the same Council that hasn't exactly covered itself in glory in recent years.

It's not the same council though. Half the old city councillors lost their seats at the last elections and with the amalgamation 15 of the 21 city area councillors are new.

zulutango wrote: »

It just beggars belief that so much money (up to €17 million according to the Sunday Business Post) is going to be directed at a project that nobody, literally nobody, in the city ever looked for, and this money is going to be given ahead of so many far more deserving projects that the Council is supposed to be pursuing!!

Can you prove that other projects will lose out over this? I don't see anywhere where this has been mentioned. The money for this will come from Failte Ireland and private donations.

zulutango wrote: »

Notwithstanding that, there's a rush to spend the money with €3 million earmarked for 2015. That will almost entirely go to consultants who will carry out a detailed design. So, they're going full steam ahead with detailed design before they're having any consultation with stakeholders, on a project that was never mooted and nobody has looked for, and the justification for is (at best) completely wishy-washy. Forgive me for being cynical, but this is downright gross mismanagement of our city.

Again where's you proof that any of this is correct? From everything I've read, it's being driven by Failte Ireland, not the council.

Vanquished

pigtown wrote: »

Nope. It's very easy to be cynical about officialdom in this country. I find that I'm in less of a bad mood since I decided to try to be more optimistic though.

I'm an optimistic person but I'm also realistic. If we've learned anything from past mistakes it's that we're dead right to be cynical about the "system" here. Appropriate safeguards and oversights are all too often lacking!

Just last year Limerick City Council appointed an individual to a highly paid position without a public competition. Scrutiny of their practices is essential given the vast amounts of tax payer funding they receive!

zulutango

Cookiemunster wrote: »

It's not the same council though. Half the old city councillors lost their seats at the last elections and with the amalgamation 15 of the 21 city area councillors are new.

Can you prove that other projects will lose out over this? I don't see anywhere where this has been mentioned. The money for this will come from Failte Ireland and private donations.

Again where's you proof that any of this is correct? From everything I've read, it's being driven by Failte Ireland, not the council.

The elected representatives are not relevant to this discussion. The most powerful people in Limerick are the unelected officials in city hall. There has been some shuffling about with the amalgamation, but a lot of the same personalities are there. Some of them are very good, others are not. I believe that this plan was the brainchild of one of the officials.

I'm not saying other projects will lose out, I'm saying that there are much more worthy, long-awaited projects which are already planned, which are being skipped for this. €6 million (initially, and increasing to €17 million) is being raided from the national coffers to push a project that nobody looked for, that no feasibility has been done on. Really, do you want Limerick to be run like this? It's that kind of management that has given us so many problems.

Fáilte Ireland are simply the vehicle with which this will be both justified and funded. I'm sure it originated in the back rooms of city council. It has all the hallmarks of it.

zulutango

It seems that the councillors were shown the initial plan yesterday so expect some images to appear in the local press in the next few days.

IsaacWunder

Really strikes me as a stupid idea. There's a pedestrian bridge already there that we can't access, and they now want to build a longer one in the middle of the river apparently for tourists. The fact that it links city hall with the centre of town is, I presume, completely coincidental.

phog

Artists impression of that area by 2030 and no sign of the bridge. It might well be the bridge was an after thought or a seperate idea from the Limerick 2030 project

zulutango

phog wrote: »

Artists impression of that area by 2030 and no sign of the bridge. It might well be the bridge was an after thought or a seperate idea from the Limerick 2030 project

I read every paragraph of the Limerick 2030 document. There was no mention of the bridge. It was dreamt up by one of the senior officials in city hall, probably after Limerick 2030 was unveiled. I don't think any urban planner who valued their credibility would have proposed it.

Vanquished

phog wrote: »

Artists impression of that area by 2030 and no sign of the bridge. It might well be the bridge was an after thought or a seperate idea from the Limerick 2030 project

It seems to have been instigated by the councils "planning and economic development" wing. The head of that department who originally floated the footbridge concept has now moved on to pastures new.

All images associated with the 2030 plan are entirely conceptual. I'd say they still haven't the foggiest notion what form or structure it'll take. It's already been 18 months since the glitzy launch and we've yet to see any concrete proposals!

zulutango

ShatterProof

zulutango wrote: »

Look like all the scumbags who'll hang out there got dressed for the photo shoot.

zulutango

Anyone have any ideas how boats are going to get past this?

Cookiemunster

zulutango wrote: »

Anyone have any ideas how boats are going to get past this?

Through the lock. That's what it was put there for.....