No motor tax

barrymac20

Hey guys.
Just wondering does anyone know the procedure that follows being caught by the guards having out of date tax, and non display.

I received a court summons a couple of weeks ago and I was led to believe that the summons was because I didn't pay a fine for non display of and out of date tax. I have since gotten confirmation that no fine was issued.

So should I have gotten a fine first or is a court appearance mandatory for this offence

Thanks

MarkR

I thought if the car was less than 3 months out, you got a fine. If over, the car is lifted? How far was it out?

fmcg_scribe

MarkR wrote: »

I thought if the car was less than 3 months out, you got a fine. If over, the car is lifted? How far was it out?

From http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_offences/driving_offences.html:
"[T]he Gardaí are empowered to impound any vehicle which has not been taxed for a period of two months or more...f you are stopped by the Gardaí while driving a vehicle and the road tax for that vehicle is out of date by two months or more, the Gardaí can seize that vehicle and impound it until such time as the owner can show proof that the motor tax has been paid for that vehicle to include the date on which it was impounded (i.e. paying the arrears due on the vehicle)."

barrymac20

MarkR wrote: »

I thought if the car was less than 3 months out, you got a fine. If over, the car is lifted? How far was it out?

It was out by nearly 2 months. Guard gave me impression I'd get a fine but next I heard about it was a summons! I thought maybe I missed the fine in the post somehow, started doubting myself. But had it confirmed yesterday that no fine was issued. It's a bit harsh if a court visit is mandatory for this

barrymac20

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

From http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/driving_offences/driving_offences.html:
"[T]he Gardaí are empowered to impound any vehicle which has not been taxed for a period of two months or more...f you are stopped by the Gardaí while driving a vehicle and the road tax for that vehicle is out of date by two months or more, the Gardaí can seize that vehicle and impound it until such time as the owner can show proof that the motor tax has been paid for that vehicle to include the date on which it was impounded (i.e. paying the arrears due on the vehicle)."

Thanks for the reply. Tax wasn't out by two months....

fmcg_scribe

barrymac20 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. Tax wasn't out by two months....

From http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/motor_tax_and_insurance/motor_tax_rates.html:
"Not only are you obliged by law to pay motor tax to drive your vehicle, you are also required to display evidence that you have paid (i.e., a current tax disc) on the windscreen of your vehicle. Failure to display a current tax disc on your vehicle is considered a motoring offence and will result in a €60 fixed-charge fine issued by a traffic warden or a Garda...Failure to tax your vehicle and/or display a current tax disc is a serious offence and you are liable to receive a fine and/or face prosecution if you do not comply."

There seems to be a degree of either/or about what happens if you're caught. Might be a good idea to clarify your situation with the Gardai.

Atlantic Dawn

If you now have tax they may be lenient to a degree, if you however go to court with it still not taxed they will likely give you the maximum fine available to them.

bigroad

If you tax it up to date including back tax and produce in court ,i would say the Judge will be happy enough.
The Judge will want to know why you didnt get a fine only.
I say he might not be too happy with the guard for wasting court time.

barrymac20

Yeah it's all a bit unclear. I have paid all arrears so t

barrymac20

The npo have come back and said that having no tax displayed should receive a fixed penalty fine. whereas car not being taxed does not fall under the fixed penalty fine list so would not receive a fine.

Yeah it's all a bit unclear really. I have paid all arrears and have proof so that's not a problem. I'll be interested to see how it goes and it does look i have a case to defend myself a bit

fmcg_scribe

Do you have a good excuse for not being compliant when you were caught?

A "dog ate my homework" style excuse might not go down well with a judge.

barrymac20

fmcg_scribe wrote: »

Do you have a good excuse for not being compliant when you were caught?

A "dog ate my homework" style excuse might not go down well with a judge.

Not really. Was low on funds and waiting for it to build up. That's about it

barrymac20

Update: The Guard in question is going to ask for the non display offence to be struck out as i should have received a fine for this first....
Hes still adamant that the fact the car wasn't taxed when I was stopped that a court appearance is mandatory! Still seems a bit harsh to me but we'll see what happens. Court on Friday....

ShaunieVW

Get a solicitor, Judges look badly upon people representing themselves.

barrymac20

ShaunieVW wrote: »

Get a solicitor, Judges look badly upon people representing themselves.

not sure they look badly but anyway I've gotten a solicitor to represent Me. I'd be ****ting myself otherwise

Voodoomelon

barrymac20 wrote: »

Update: The Guard in question is going to ask for the non display offence to be struck out as i should have received a fine for this first....
Hes still adamant that the fact the car wasn't taxed when I was stopped that a court appearance is mandatory! Still seems a bit harsh to me but we'll see what happens. Court on Friday....

This has me baffled, something has gone wrong here. I can't find the legislation and honestly i'm not 100% positive on this, but I have never heard of anyone being summonsed to court for not having motor tax.

As you said in your first post, you should only be summonsed if you failed to pay a fixed penalty notice, which you say was never sent in the first place. Even if you don't bring a solicitor to court, i'd be consulting one to see if this is correct.

coylemj

barrymac20 wrote: »

not sure they look badly but anyway I've gotten a solicitor to represent Me. I'd be ****ting myself otherwise

Judges do not 'look badly' on people who represent themselves for trivial motor offences like parking and tax. That solicitor is going to cost you a helluva lot more than you'd expect to be fined, given that you can show that you are now compliant and have paid the arrears.

Most judges on a good day will apply the probation act when they hear that you have paid the arrears.

Voodoomelon

I'm just thinking, was your vehicle declared off the road?

coylemj

Voodoomelon wrote: »

This has me baffled, something has gone wrong here. I can't find the legislation and honestly i'm not 100% positive on this, but I have never heard of anyone being summonsed to court for not having motor tax.

There are two separate offences - non-display is an offence under the Finance Act 1976 (see below) and non-payment is a revenue offence, can't remember under which act.

73.—(1) Where a vehicle to which this Part applies is used, parked or otherwise kept at any time in a public place, if while the vehicle is being so used, parked or kept there is not fixed to and exhibited on the vehicle in accordance with section 5 (5) of the Act of 1920 a licence which is both issued in respect of the vehicle and is for the time being in force, then the person by whom the vehicle is so used, parked or kept at the time shall be guilty of an offence, and in addition to the person aforesaid, the person (if he is not the person aforesaid) who on the day on which the offence is committed is in relation to the vehicle the relevant person shall also be guilty of an offence.

(2) A person shall not be convicted under this section and under section 12 (4) of the Act of 1920 in respect of the same omission.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1976/en/act/pub/0016/sec0073.html#sec73

Jesus.

Voodoomelon wrote: »

This has me baffled, something has gone wrong here. I can't find the legislation and honestly i'm not 100% positive on this, but I have never heard of anyone being summonsed to court for not having motor tax. As you said in your first post, you should only be summonsed if you failed to pay a fixed penalty notice, which you say was never sent in the first place. Even if you don't bring a solicitor to court, i'd be consulting one to see if this is correct.

Could it be because he gave the Guard some lip or would that come under something different? (Haven't a clue about these things)

barrymac20

coylemj wrote: »

Judges do not 'look badly' on people who represent themselves for trivial motor offences like parking and tax. That solicitor is going to cost you a helluva lot more than you'd expect to be fined, given that you can show that you are now compliant and have paid the arrears.

Most judges on a good day will apply the probation act when they hear that you have paid the arrears.

That might be the case but to be honest I did it for peace of mind rather than anything else. I would been really nervous on the day and really stressed in the build up. So it's 150Euro well spent hopefully

barrymac20

coylemj wrote: »

There are two separate offences - non-display is an offence under the Finance Act 1976 (see below) and non-payment is a revenue offence, can't remember under which act.

73.—(1) Where a vehicle to which this Part applies is used, parked or otherwise kept at any time in a public place, if while the vehicle is being so used, parked or kept there is not fixed to and exhibited on the vehicle in accordance with section 5 (5) of the Act of 1920 a licence which is both issued in respect of the vehicle and is for the time being in force, then the person by whom the vehicle is so used, parked or kept at the time shall be guilty of an offence, and in addition to the person aforesaid, the person (if he is not the person aforesaid) who on the day on which the offence is committed is in relation to the vehicle the relevant person shall also be guilty of an offence.

(2) A person shall not be convicted under this section and under section 12 (4) of the Act of 1920 in respect of the same omission.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1976/en/act/pub/0016/sec0073.html#sec73

Yeah i've found out that the non display offence should have earned a fine. as I didn't get one it will be struck out according to the guard. I can't find much info on the other one but the guard told me. Seems to me like I'm going to court for **** all

ardmacha

barrymac20 wrote: »

Yeah i've found out that the non display offence should have earned a fine. as I didn't get one it will be struck out according to the guard. I can't find much info on the other one but the guard told me. Seems to me like I'm going to court for **** all

This isn't just a fine for non display, you didn't have the car taxed!
Non display is when the disc fell off, or you hadn't bothered to put it up, or the Guard ate it.

Special Circumstances

ardmacha wrote: »

Non display is when ... the Guard ate it.

Feckers for that alright. I've mine soaked in chilli juice and dryed now, sick of it at this stage.

coylemj

barrymac20 wrote: »

Yeah i've found out that the non display offence should have earned a fine. as I didn't get one it will be struck out according to the guard. I can't find much info on the other one but the guard told me. Seems to me like I'm going to court for **** all

Can you look at the summons for non-payment please and tell us which law you're supposed to have broken. Please quote the act and section. The non-display should be the Finance Act 1976 so it's the other one.

Rightwing

barrymac20 wrote: »

not sure they look badly but anyway I've gotten a solicitor to represent Me. I'd be ****ting myself otherwise

Good luck with the case, if the judge has any cop on he'll throw the case out.

ebbsy

You do not need a solicitor.

I was in court last week ( two months arrears ).

Judge asked was I guilty. Yes.
Was I paid up to date. Yes. Produced the evidence.
He said I did'nt owe the state anything.

Make sure you turn up. He does not want to hear long stories, say you are guilty and you will probably get off.

Rightwing

ebbsy wrote: »

You do not need a solicitor.

I was in court last week ( two months arrears ).

Judge asked was I guilty. Yes.
Was I paid up to date. Yes. Produced the evidence.
He said I did'nt owe the state anything.

Make sure you turn up. He does not want to hear long stories, say you are guilty and you will probably get off.

I'd like Gardai to receive education. Your case proves it, clogging up the court with minor cases, 2 months out, ffs, anyone can forget to tax a car.

bigroad

The whole Motor Tax enforcement is a joke,its jobs for the boys.
They cant or wont move to the Uk system.
A little round piece of paper stuck to the windscreen ,what a joke.
We have people walking out of the court with eighty convictions but we drag in people with motor tax out of date for two months.

Voodoomelon

ebbsy wrote: »

You do not need a solicitor.

I was in court last week ( two months arrears ).

Judge asked was I guilty. Yes.
Was I paid up to date. Yes. Produced the evidence.
He said I did'nt owe the state anything.

Make sure you turn up. He does not want to hear long stories, say you are guilty and you will probably get off.

Can I ask what your offence was?

Rightwing

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Can I ask what your offence was?

Read the post again, it's rather self explanatory.

Voodoomelon

Rightwing wrote: »

Read the post again, it's rather self explanatory.

But not specific.

Was your tax out more than two months or less than two months? Were you summonsed for non display or failure to pay? Were you issued a fine and then forgot to pay or was it summons straight away?

Rightwing

Voodoomelon wrote: »

But not specific.

Was your tax out more than two months or less than two months? Were you summonsed for non display or failure to pay? Were you issued a fine and then forgot to pay or was it summons straight away?

Didn't he say the car tax was out for 2 months.

barrymac20

coylemj wrote: »

Can you look at the summons for non-payment please and tell us which law you're supposed to have broken. Please quote the act and section. The non-display should be the Finance Act 1976 so it's the other one.

Contrary to section 71 (1) finance act 1976 and section 76 finance act 1976 as amended by section 63 finance act 1993

ebbsy

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Can I ask what your offence was?

No bother bud. I was parked in Kildare and a warden saw I was two months out. Was waiting for funds to come in. Got a ticket, did'nt pay it, paid tax, but had gone up to €230 by then ???!!!!, still did'nt pay it. I paid the car tax and not a penny more. Already on my haunchers as it is.

The judge is faced with hundreds of these cases per sitting. Fess up and you should be grand, he does'nt like smartasses either.

Voodoomelon

Hmm, so you didn't get summonsed for no tax, it was for non payment of the fixed penalty. Still no clear why the OP got summonsed.

ebbsy

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Hmm, so you didn't get summonsed for no tax, it was for non payment of the fixed penalty. Still no clear why the OP got summonsed.

It is a gravy train and they have to keep it going. Money for jam.

pred racer

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Hmm, so you didn't get summonsed for no tax, it was for non payment of the fixed penalty. Still no clear why the OP got summonsed.

I've been summonsed for having no tax, just bought the car too. This was pre fixed penalty/points days, not sure what happens these days.

As above I pled guilty (no solicitor) explained the situation and showed proof of tax/back tax and it was thrown out.

*Kol*

Are there penalty points for not having motor tax?

slimjimmc

*Kol* wrote: »

Are there penalty points for not having motor tax?

No.

cadaliac

bigroad wrote: »

The whole Motor Tax enforcement is a joke,its jobs for the boys.
They cant or wont move to the Uk system.
A little round piece of paper stuck to the windscreen ,what a joke.
....

What system would that be? The one where we use ANPR?
Have a good look at the next Traffic Corps car you see.

bigroad

I know we have anpr but we dont have enough detection systems in place.
In the uk they use the anpr system for tax and insurance.
We have some anpr but still need to show three bits of paper on the windscreen including the Nct cert.
The insurance disc is not proof of insurance an insurance cert is .So a guard can ask to see both and this might include a trip to the station to produce your insurance cert if you do not carry it with you in the car.

barrymac20

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Hmm, so you didn't get summonsed for no tax, it was for non payment of the fixed penalty. Still no clear why the OP got summonsed.

For non payment of tax

Voodoomelon

I'd still like to know why some people get a fixed penalty notice and others (like you) get summonsed. Is it just Garda discretion?

barrymac20

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I'd still like to know why some people get a fixed penalty notice and others (like you) get summonsed. Is it just Garda discretion?

fixed penalty is only for non display.(this element will be struck out as I didn't get the fine)
but not having the car taxed does not fall under the fixed penalty system. So its the guards discretion. I guess he could have given me ten days to get taxed but he decided to bring me to court

realdanbreen

FFS! Does anyone want to pay for anything in this country anymore?
You had no tax on your car, you were caught, pay up, end of story.

barrymac20

realdanbreen wrote: »

FFS! Does anyone want to pay for anything in this country anymore?
You had no tax on your car, you were caught, pay up, end of story.

Get lost will ya....
I never said i wasn't going to pay up did I?
I started this thread to try and find out what the correct procedure was for dealing with these offences, not for a smart arse like you to stick his oar in.

realdanbreen

barrymac20 wrote: »

Get lost will ya....
I never said i wasn't going to pay up did I?
I started this thread to try and find out what the correct procedure was for dealing with these offences, not for a smart arse like you to stick his oar in.

Who cares what the procedure is! Pay your tax and you have no worries-and you don't have to pay any fat cat solicitors either.

barrymac20

realdanbreen wrote: »

Who cares what the procedure is! Pay your tax and you have no worries-and you don't have to pay any fat cat solicitors either.

No bother, cheers for the input.

Anyway, hearing was yesterday but my solicitor decided to go to ground and leave me hanging over tied weekend....

cadaliac

realdanbreen wrote: »

Who cares what the procedure is! Pay your tax and you have no worries-and you don't have to pay any fat cat solicitors either.

I care. I care very much actually. As the poster said, they wanted to find out what the actual procedure is. Not just hearsay or pub talk.
Come down off your high horse there luv. You'll only hurt yourself.

dr.fuzzenstein

barrymac20 wrote: »

No bother, cheers for the input.

Anyway, hearing was yesterday but my solicitor decided to go to ground and leave me hanging over tied weekend....

Sorry, elaborate? Did you go, was it postponed or did you not show up?