I Loathe Dublin Bus

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

I don't think there would necessarily be any shortfall, if it is set at a rate that takes account of total revenue of fare paying passengers divided by number of fare paying passengers. You may have a fall in shorter journeys less than current 3 stages but you may also have an increase in cheaper longer journeys, it may also encourage more people to travel if they don't have to concern themselves with the mind boggling current stage system.

But you're taking a fairly big risk of getting it wrong. It's not an exact science. With the company's financial position being as unhealthy as it is right now, and with another financial hit coming from the extra three years of child fares, I would find it highly unlikely that they or the NTA are prepared to take that risk.

Also do you think it particularly fair that someone travelling 1/3 stages should pay the same as someone travelling from City Centre to Bray for example? We have far longer bus routes than many cities due to our reliance on buses over rail in Dublin, which does mean that there is a far greater mix of fares.

Personally I think a zonal system with clear announcements and signage (as in Berlin and Barcelona) is what is probably the best way forward. That way you can maintain some conformity between bus, rail and LUAS fares.

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

But you're taking a fairly big risk of getting it wrong. It's not an exact science. With the company's financial position being as unhealthy as it is right now, and with another financial hit coming from the extra three years of child fares, I would find it highly unlikely that they or the NTA are prepared to take that risk.

Also do you think it particularly fair that someone travelling 1/3 stages should pay the same as someone travelling from City Centre to Bray for example? We have far longer bus routes than many cities due to our reliance on buses over rail in Dublin, which does mean that there is a far greater mix of fares.

Personally I think a zonal system with clear announcements and signage (as in Berlin and Barcelona) is what is probably the best way forward. That way you can maintain some conformity between bus, rail and LUAS fares.

There are a couple of aspects you are overlooking the current system isn't particularly fair either, someone can travel from Clarehall to Jobstown for €3.05 but if they want to just go to the city centre they pay €3.05 as well, or if they board a 67 in Lucan they pay the same fare to get to Maynooth as someone who boarded in town pays to get to Maynooth.

Also a flat fare would reduce fare dodgers who pay the minimum fare but over travel.

It would also encourage people to use the bus who are put off by the overly complicated current fare system.

It would reduce dwell time at stops, A because you don't have to ask whats the fare to A or B and secondly people would have zero excuse for not having the fare ready. it should also speed up the overworked ticket machines which would be drastically simplified.

Yes there would be winners and losers, I don't agree it would be taking a risk let alone a fairly big risk, it is certainly no more risky than the capping of fares for example in fact with capping now a lot of people are paying the highest €2.50 fare even on short journeys because they plan on reaching the daily or weekly cap anyway.

Alun

lxflyer wrote: »

Also do you think it particularly fair that someone travelling 1/3 stages should pay the same as someone travelling from City Centre to Bray for example?

It's not far off that already anyway ... the cash fare from my house in Bray to Quinsborough Rd. is €2.35, 4 stages and a distance of only 2.1km. For only 70c more I can go all the way into the centre of Dublin, 10 times the distance at 21km and 35 'stages'. If that's not a ludicrous fare structure then I don't know what is.

n97 mini

The city centre fare is also an anomaly. I do a short journey every few weeks for €1.95 (Leap), knowing it would be a third the price in the city centre. I'd do it by bus more often if it was a bit cheaper.

Having said that if I could do all journeys for €1.95 I wouldn't mind.

LXFlyer

Alun wrote: »

It's not far off that already anyway ... the cash fare from my house in Bray to Quinsborough Rd. is €2.35, 4 stages and a distance of only 2.1km. For only 70c more I can go all the way into the centre of Dublin, 10 times the distance at 21km and 35 'stages'. If that's not a ludicrous fare structure then I don't know what is.

Without having even more fares I can't see how you address that.

Alun

lxflyer wrote: »

Without having even more fares I can't see how you address that.

Why would having even more fares be a problem? Just rejig the 'stage' system so that everything within Bray is one stage, for example, job done. Why a distance of only 2.1km encompasses 4 stages is beyond me.

LXFlyer

cdebru wrote: »

There are a couple of aspects you are overlooking the current system isn't particularly fair either, someone can travel from Clarehall to Jobstown for €3.05 but if they want to just go to the city centre they pay €3.05 as well, or if they board a 67 in Lucan they pay the same fare to get to Maynooth as someone who boarded in town pays to get to Maynooth.

Also a flat fare would reduce fare dodgers who pay the minimum fare but over travel.

It would also encourage people to use the bus who are put off by the overly complicated current fare system.

It would reduce dwell time at stops, A because you don't have to ask whats the fare to A or B and secondly people would have zero excuse for not having the fare ready. it should also speed up the overworked ticket machines which would be drastically simplified.

Yes there would be winners and losers, I don't agree it would be taking a risk let alone a fairly big risk, it is certainly no more risky than the capping of fares for example in fact with capping now a lot of people are paying the highest €2.50 fare even on short journeys because they plan on reaching the daily or weekly cap anyway.

Well as a PT user I agree with you re the desirablility of simplifying the fare structure.

But as a Chartered Accountant I can see the risks that are involved, particularly given the fragile nature of the company's books right now and the ongoing hits they are taking from LEAP, the latest being the extension of child fares to 16, 17 and 18 year olds. No financial controller worth his salt in any company would advocate completely changing a company's pricing structure until stability returned, which it hasn't as yet.

punisher5112

n97 mini wrote: »

The city centre fare is also an anomaly. I do a short journey every few weeks for €1.95 (Leap), knowing it would be a third the price in the city centre. I'd do it by bus more often if it was a bit cheaper.

Having said that if I could do all journeys for €1.95 I wouldn't mind.

City centre fare aka shopper fare was introduced originally for people doing shopping in the city to try get people to use city centre shops all around so they wouldn't have to walk far.
The city centre fare is to try and compete with the Dublin bikes.

LXFlyer

n97 mini wrote: »

The city centre fare is also an anomaly. I do a short journey every few weeks for €1.95 (Leap), knowing it would be a third the price in the city centre. I'd do it by bus more often if it was a bit cheaper.

Having said that if I could do all journeys for €1.95 I wouldn't mind.

It's a promotional fare to encourage shoppers to use the bus in the city centre.

punisher5112

Anyone like op that just hates the company and seems to have the same attitude to its drivers should read up on the company bye laws and also try and see things from the driver side of things.


Some examples here so bare with me...

Bus has a huge amount of blind spots where driver will not see intending passengers and pedestrian including cyclists, cars and so on.

People literally appear out of thin air and I really mean this I don't have a answer to where they come out of.

The best is pull into stop and people get off and on then as soon as doors are closing or closed another person in a different world decide they wanted to get off or on but made no effort to show their intention.

We as professional drivers have so much things to be worrying about, watching and trying to predict what others are going to do around us from that kid hiding behind the bush to running out from parked car to people texting or on phone and just stepping out to the cyclist bursting themselves to squeeze up the inside or outside while moving and the risk to them going under the wheels very high.

So much can happen on a duty its unreal and if we as drivers told you all half the stuff that goes on or happens you would swear we were making it up.

RayM

Tarabuses wrote: »

Yes but, unfortunately, if you had died in these circumstances the driver could have been held responsible.

If stepping onto a stationary low-floor bus carried a significant risk of death, I'm sure the driver wouldn't have opened the door. I know that sounds facetious, but you can generally trust a professional driver to use their initiative.

lxflyer wrote: »

I appreciate your point, but being fair about it the company instructs drivers not to pick people up once they have closed the doors. From that point onwards, they are supposed to focus on driving and the road.

If they do open the doors, that is totally at their own discretion, and if something goes wrong, they're liable for it.

I don't see why people are, frankly, excoriating drivers for following company procedures. I've lost track of the number of times I've seen people making rude gestures at the driver of buses that I've been on for not opening doors between stops. But ultimately it's not a case of drivers being uncaring or rude, they are just following the procedures that they have been issued with.

If the driver genuinely believes that it's too dangerous - or even too awkward and inconvenient - to open the doors, then that's absolutely fair enough. In many situations, opening the doors will result in lots of other people trying to get on/off and then everybody gets delayed, so I can understand them refusing - especially if it's a busy route and there'll be another bus along in a few minutes anyway.

On the other hand, if they're still beside the bus stop, stuck in traffic, and they can clearly see that there isn't any sign of danger, I don't think it does any harm to be decent and open the door. I think most drivers would be inclined to open the door in that situation, rather than staring blankly ahead.

5uspect

I have no problem with drivers refusing to open doors when they are not pulled into a stop. It's a consistent and understandable rule. However I've had to run for buses that have come earlier than the supposed live updates said and missed them which is frustrating.

In Germany buses wait until the timetable catches up. Some stops even have a loo just for the driver and they can wait for several minutes at a stop while passengers hop on without any driver interaction.

Also, with regards to the exceptionally long routes, why is this the case? Can't these be broken up in a couple of routes?

n97 mini

lxflyer wrote: »

It's a promotional fare to encourage shoppers to use the bus in the city centre.

DB should be trying to encourage people to use the bus everywhere. There is so much more to Dublin and surrounds than the city centre. There are so many different town centres.

end of the road

5uspect wrote: »

with regards to the exceptionally long routes, why is this the case? Can't these be broken up in a couple of routes?

yes they could, but they would potentially require more busses and drivers to run them, costing more money. i believe that was the reason for the cross city routes as part of network direct?

cdebru

RayM wrote: »

If stepping onto a stationary low-floor bus carried a significant risk of death, I'm sure the driver wouldn't have opened the door. I know that sounds facetious, but you can generally trust a professional driver to use their initiative.



.

He did use his initiative he didn't open the door.

The reason why drivers stare blankly ahead is that it is much easier to just ignore someone than to make eye contact and say no, and even when they say no some people won't take no for an answer and continue knocking and pleading their case so now the driver is in a discussion through the closed door as to why they can't wont open it., just ignoring makes people go away quicker. It may appear rude ( and it is) but there is a reason behind it, it works.

cdebru

lxflyer wrote: »

Well as a PT user I agree with you re the desirablility of simplifying the fare structure.

But as a Chartered Accountant I can see the risks that are involved, particularly given the fragile nature of the company's books right now and the ongoing hits they are taking from LEAP, the latest being the extension of child fares to 16, 17 and 18 year olds. No financial controller worth his salt in any company would advocate completely changing a company's pricing structure until stability returned, which it hasn't as yet.

I don't accept that for one minute, DB is always in a financial predicament, there will never be a good time to change anything.

I agree with what you say as regards the child leapcard fares and IMO the NTA made the decision so they should pick up whatever the costs of that measure are, they should be easily identifiable.

All that said there is a lot that could be done even short of a total flat fare, they could scrap all stages and replace it with stop based structure say €2 for 10 stops or less and €3 over 10 stops. This would simplify the system down to 2 fares make it far more transparent for passengers.
The stage system is a joke, no one actually knows for sure where the stages are not even DB, even on their own fare calculator they have stages named differently from the ticket machine they have them in different places, misnamed misplaced etc so if the company themselves don't know their own stage system how could passengers ever know it ?

I'm not hung up on a flat fare but the current nonsense belongs to a different time and needs to be overhauled badly.

RayM

cdebru wrote: »

He did use his initiative he didn't open the door.

The reason why drivers stare blankly ahead is that it is much easier to just ignore someone than to make eye contact and say no, and even when they say no some people won't take no for an answer and continue knocking and pleading their case so now the driver is in a discussion through the closed door as to why they can't wont open it., just ignoring makes people go away quicker. It may appear rude ( and it is) but there is a reason behind it, it works.

In no other customer-facing job is it considered acceptable to behave so ignorantly towards members of the public. I'm not even suggesting that the driver should enter into a discussion - just a simple acknowledgement that they exist. I'm trying to imagine a shop assistant getting away with blanking someone like that, and... no... they wouldn't last very long in the job, would they?

Tickityboo

RayM wrote: »

In no other customer-facing job is it considered acceptable to behave so ignorantly towards members of the public. I'm not even suggesting that the driver should enter into a discussion - just a simple acknowledgement that they exist. I'm trying to imagine a shop assistant getting away with blanking someone like that, and... no... they wouldn't last very long in the job, would they?

How often would you ask a shop assistant to do something that goes against company policy and is potentially dangerous!!?

In the bus drivers case acknowledging the person who is asking you to do precisely that is inviting confrontation so it's better to avoid eye contact.

punisher5112

We as drivers have enough to watch and any person stepping out to try and get on should think of what could happen if driver of bus or cyclist or motorcyclist didn't see them.


i have had many a occasion this happen and have even had absolute idiots press door button while moving inside and out.

I and any other driver have to be watching for anything and everything.

markpb

lxflyer wrote: »

No financial controller worth his salt in any company would advocate completely changing a company's pricing structure until stability returned, which it hasn't as yet.

But a CEO might see that without a change that attract could more customers, the company's financial position might not improve. There's a balance to be found, companies that are constantly financially conservative are rarely successful.

cdebru

RayM wrote: »

In no other customer-facing job is it considered acceptable to behave so ignorantly towards members of the public. I'm not even suggesting that the driver should enter into a discussion - just a simple acknowledgement that they exist. I'm trying to imagine a shop assistant getting away with blanking someone like that, and... no... they wouldn't last very long in the job, would they?

Apples and oranges, a shop assistant is not in charge of a large public service vehicle with responsibilities to their passengers and all other road users. Bus stopped doors open is customer service time, doors closed is driving time and the drivers attention should not be on the person who think they should have a god given right to board any stationary bus at any given moment.
Drivers are specifically told to ignore people banging on the door, not to make eye contact and not to engage them as the best approach.

RayM

cdebru wrote: »

Apples and oranges, a shop assistant is not in charge of a large public service vehicle with responsibilities to their passengers and all other road users. Bus stopped doors open is customer service time, doors closed is driving time and the drivers attention should not be on the person who think they should have a god given right to board any stationary bus at any given moment.
Drivers are specifically told to ignore people banging on the door, not to make eye contact and not to engage them as the best approach.

Well, thankfully a lot of drivers aren't that ignorant towards their customers. Something I was very grateful for last week.

end of the road

RayM wrote: »

Well, thankfully a lot of drivers aren't that ignorant towards their customers. Something I was very grateful for last week.

how are drivers who are doing what they are told being "ignorant towards their customers." . if a driver goes against that rule its at their discretion, but your not entitled for them to do it.

cdebru

RayM wrote: »

Well, thankfully a lot of drivers aren't that ignorant towards their customers. Something I was very grateful for last week.

It's not ignorant it is doing their job properly, it's good you are grateful let's hope you still feel grateful if anything ever went wrong and you wouldn't use it to improve your case against DB and increase your payout ;-)