Employee stealing - No proof

clio_16v

I have a lot of stock or cash missing from my pub business and am not sure what to do. My cctv system was on the blink for a while and it hasn't shown anything. I've sorted that now. I have strong suspicions of one or two people, one of whom quit immediately once the discrepancies appeared. Is there anything I can do or do I have to just put it down to experience? It is a significant amount of money, very significant. Should I get Gardai involved? It's eating me apart, I can barely sleep and have been depressed for weeks about this. I have a good relationship with my staff but am probably too laid back with them and they are taking advantage.

magicmushroom

I would most definitely report it to the Gards, as soon as possible - doing nothing will only show the staff they can steal from you can get away with it.

I'm very sorry for your situation, it must feel awful to know that people you think you have a good relationship with have stolen from you.

Slunk

If you do go after them make sure you have them 100%. Guy in work was searched just outside the job, by one member of management and found to have the sane items in his possession as are stocked in work.
Firstly, two people have to be present for a bag search and secondly they had no proof they were taken from work. Ensure you have them on cctv in the workplace and always have a witness when confronting them. Guy got his hob back and paid for the time he was suspended pending investigation.

Mr. Incognito

Citizens cannot carry out searches under any circumstances.

Only a guard can do so.

If you carry out an illegal search any evidence you find cannot be admitted.

Slunk

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Citizens cannot carry out searches under any circumstances.

Only a guard can do so.

If you carry out an illegal search any evidence you find cannot be admitted.

Thanks for that, what about on company property?

pedronomix

OP, hate to be so blunt, no proof, no case. You are probably seriously pi**ed about the non CCTV.. you were not on it, they know it, you got toasted. In my book it is down to you, so best get over it and just get on with it.. you fcuked up and now you get to suck up the sludge. It is not right/fair but this is the reality of business today, you have got to be all over the detail.; Nice patsy guys get screwed!! learn from it, is about the only take away from this.

JMR

You should definitely report this theft to the Gardai.
The fact you suspect the culprit to be an employee or former employee is no reason not to report the crime and have it investigated.

Without CCTV, the investigation may not turn up anything but you cannot just ignore this and put it down to experience as other posters have suggested.

Report it and provide your suspicions to the Gardai and see what they can do.

28064212

Do not mention your suspicions to anyone (except maybe the guards). Otherwise you'll leave yourself wide open to a defamation suit. Also, do not dismiss them unless you have proof, and even then, you need to follow proper procedure. You should get legal advice.

Report the theft to the guards, and provide any evidence you have. Allow them to do their investigation, it's their job

mikeyjames9

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Citizens cannot carry out searches under any circumstances.

Only a guard can do so.

If you carry out an illegal search any evidence you find cannot be admitted.

hmm ..how do security guards do it in shops then?


are they all acting illegally?

Statler

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Citizens cannot carry out searches under any circumstances.

Only a guard can do so.

If you carry out an illegal search any evidence you find cannot be admitted.

Assuming they're in the appropriate position (i.e. Management or Security) anyone can carry out a search, once consent is given, but it would be advisable to have a written policy in place clearly outlining when, where, why and how such a search would take place. If you're working in the National Mint I'd expect to be searched leaving work everyday, if you're working in an office with no stock on the premises and were suddenly asked to consent to a search it'd be a different story altogether.

OP if it's large amount of cash and you're losing sleep over it go to the Gardai, present them with all the evidence you have, but realistically as has been said above you're probably going to have to chalk it down to experience. Hard lesson learned with cash trust no one, and spend as much money as possible on cctv and check it once a week to make sure it's working properly.

enricoh

my advice get a better cctv outfit that will fix it next day at the latest. my local is apparently like nasa upstairs with a heap of monitors etc. people are less inclined to dip if they know a cameras watching. even pay a student, one of your kids to go through the cameras to keep an eye on who u suspect in future?
let it be known that poxy cameras are on the blink again in a months time - when they're not
once they start thats it, theres always a few quid needed for car repair crimbo etc

a woman beside me got 50k out of a defamation case where she was accused of theft wrongly from a pub, do nothing till its on camera
good luck, hope u get a good crimbo to undo that crap

the_syco

clio_16v wrote: »

I have a lot of stock or cash missing from my pub business and am not sure what to do. My cctv system was on the blink for a while and it hasn't shown anything. I've sorted that now.

Did you find out what caused it, and if it could have been malicious? Did you inform your staff that the CCTV wasn't working?

28064212 wrote: »

Also, do not dismiss them unless you have proof, and even then, you need to follow proper procedure. You should get legal advice.

This. Also, put up some extra hidden CCTV near where the money went missing if you can.

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

hmm ..how do security guards do it in shops then?


are they all acting illegally?

People don't know their rights, or give their consent by accident. Also, most often, people don't involve the Gardai, so they just get banned from the shop, as opposed to a criminal record.

=-=

As said, mention to staff that the CCTV is on the blink again, and see who does what.

28064212

the_syco wrote: »

Also, put up some extra hidden CCTV near where the money went missing if you can.
...
As said, mention to staff that the CCTV is on the blink again, and see who does what.

Tread very, very carefully. I believe (but don't know for certain) employees have a right to know when they're being monitored. Again, you should consult a professional on these matters

Somewhat relevant story from today, shows what can happen if you don't know what you're doing in this area: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/cineworld-told-to-pay-fired-worker-20-000-in-hotdog-row-1.1966068

collegeme

A very good point about why the cctv was on the blink was made. Report it to the guards for sure!

You should look at hidden cctv that staff have no access to. I don't know anything about this area (cctv) but maybe you could inform them they are being monitored but not tell them exactly where it is or how to access it. Look into that for future reference.

Was it alcohol that went missing? If they are stupid enough they might be selling on those facebook selling page as there are lots of posts selling alcohol every weekend.

pedroeibar1

You should look at hidden cctv that staff have no access to. I don't know anything about this area (cctv) but maybe......

I believe (but don't know for certain)

Not picking on the two above, there are lots of other examples, but if posters admit they know nothing perhaps it would be an idea if they did not post?

@OP - Nobody stole anything until you have proof. There is more to security than CCTV. Security is a mindset. What was stolen? How? Where? was it cash? was it stock? How much in €? Did somebody bring in their own till? What type of stockcontrol system do you have? How often do you stocktake/balance? Why did you do nothing for so long?

My experience of retail is there rarely is just one staff member, there always is another or more. You still have a problem.

Quantify the loss, and if it is big ( and I mean thousands) call a staff meeting, tell them that €xk is missing from stock, that cannot be ignored, and henceforth new measures will be put in place. Decide if you have sufficient proof to get the Gardai involved. They will not be interested in 'solving it' , but the sight of a uniformed Garda coming into the workplace (pick a quiet time) does have merit and will have an effect. Call in at random times during opening hours. Close a till and balance it. Do not zero any till at the end of the evening, use a running total. Be around the place. Do not worry about the staff atmosphere, they will get the message.

You have described your problem perfectly.

I have a good relationship with my staff but am probably too laid back with them and they are taking advantage.

You are the boss - if you want a good relationship buy a dog. Blunt, but meant well.

the_syco

28064212 wrote: »

Tread very, very carefully. I believe (but don't know for certain) employees have a right to know when they're being monitored. Again, you should consult a professional on these matters

I agree regarding consulting a professional.

The OP should ask the pro about installing more cameras to protect the staff, so have cameras facing all the tills, and to ensure there are no blind spots. Also have some pointing towards the customers.

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

You are the boss - if you want a good relationship buy a dog. Blunt, but meant well.

Agreed. If the OP want a good relationship with the staff, they need a cnut of a manager who is a stickler for the rules. Too easy at the top, and the bottom will take advantage.

mikeyjames9

the_syco wrote: »

Agreed. If the OP want a good relationship with the staff, they need a cnut of a manager

Who told you that?

delahuntv

Staff have a right to know they are being monitored in a staff only area. There's no right to know in the public area.

Also, if the staff ember has been with you for less than a year, get rid, pay a weeks pay in lieu and just say they were not suitable for the position.

If they are there over a year you will need to follow a strict procedure.

Faktuu

you can safely assume that since it has happened once it will happen again and if the amounts missing are more than the cost of throwing them out the door than that`s what you should do.

Involve the Gardai and be guided by them. Do NOT involve anyone else. It's too late to prove what happened in the past, but if it's still happening, go to the Gardai.

28064212

delahuntv wrote: »

Staff have a right to know they are being monitored in a staff only area. There's no right to know in the public area.

This is why you need professional advice OP (not a dig at you delahuntv). They might be right on this, although I don't think they are, but if they're wrong, and you follow their advice, it could very well end up costing you far more than the theft

leeroybrown

the_syco wrote: »

This. Also, put up some extra hidden CCTV near where the money went missing if you can.

OP be very careful if you go down the route of hidden CCTV. Its is covered by data protection laws and normally employees must be notified and the footage may only be used for the stated purposes. There are provisions for covert surveillance but you'd need to tread very carefully. You can't just put in hidden cameras and use them on an ongoing basis. The Office of the Data Protection Commissioner have a page on the topic.

Nuttzz

you need to be very careful, there is a cautionary tale from this mornings paper

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/cinema-worker-sacked-in-wrong-hotdog-row-gets-20k-30671066.html

Adelphi Carlton Ltd, trading as Cineworld Cinemas in Dublin, has been ordered to pay one of its employees €20,000 after it was judged to have fired him unfairly.

Carl Meade had worked as a Multi-Functional Operator with the cinema group for three years before losing his job after buying a hot dog and packet of sweets at the complex on April 6, 2012.

His Operations Manager noted that while Mr Meade had signed his receipt to avail of the 40pc staff discount, he had paid for a regular hotdog, but received a more costly large hotdog.

The receipt also showed that he had received a packet of Maltesers but had paid for wine gums. The total difference in price, taking the 40pc discount into account, was €1.

Mr Meade told the Employment Appeals Tribunal that it was an honest mistake and he felt the sanction of dismissal was disproportionate.

The Operations Manager told the hearing that any discrepancy between what was signed for by the staff member and the actual goods received was viewed as a breach of policy. It was considered gross misconduct and merited dismissal.

The Tribunal found he was unfairly dismissed and awarded €20,000.

Nuttzz

you need to be very careful, there is a cautionary tale from this mornings paper

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/cinema-worker-sacked-in-wrong-hotdog-row-gets-20k-30671066.html

Adelphi Carlton Ltd, trading as Cineworld Cinemas in Dublin, has been ordered to pay one of its employees €20,000 after it was judged to have fired him unfairly.

Carl Meade had worked as a Multi-Functional Operator with the cinema group for three years before losing his job after buying a hot dog and packet of sweets at the complex on April 6, 2012.

His Operations Manager noted that while Mr Meade had signed his receipt to avail of the 40pc staff discount, he had paid for a regular hotdog, but received a more costly large hotdog.

The receipt also showed that he had received a packet of Maltesers but had paid for wine gums. The total difference in price, taking the 40pc discount into account, was €1.

Mr Meade told the Employment Appeals Tribunal that it was an honest mistake and he felt the sanction of dismissal was disproportionate.

The Operations Manager told the hearing that any discrepancy between what was signed for by the staff member and the actual goods received was viewed as a breach of policy. It was considered gross misconduct and merited dismissal.

The Tribunal found he was unfairly dismissed and awarded €20,000.

LordNorbury

clio_16v wrote: »

I have a lot of stock or cash missing from my pub business and am not sure what to do. My cctv system was on the blink for a while and it hasn't shown anything. I've sorted that now. I have strong suspicions of one or two people, one of whom quit immediately once the discrepancies appeared. Is there anything I can do or do I have to just put it down to experience? It is a significant amount of money, very significant. Should I get Gardai involved? It's eating me apart, I can barely sleep and have been depressed for weeks about this. I have a good relationship with my staff but am probably too laid back with them and they are taking advantage.

Had to post here OP, happened me once, business ended up closing over it, the theft was so significant, it wasn't one big theft but a few hundred every week that left me short thousands over a few months. These things tend to start off with someone coming home and finding a 20 in their pocket that they stuck into a shirt pocket or whatever with the intention of putting into the till, then they realise you didn't come looking for it, then next week it's a 50, and so on and so on.

I used to look at this very differently, but these days, my policy is that staff who handle cash, where there are no proper controls in place or where you have controls that go offline (CCTV in your case), you are nearly guaranteed to experience theft of stock and/or misappropriation of cash.

Gardai are slow to investigate these type of complaints, let alone prosecute, unless there is firm evidence of theft.

If I were you, I'd start with your customers, when I was being robbed, it was one of my customers who put me wide.

joeguevara

You can only put covert CCTV for a limited period of time and for a specific purpose (stock/cash going missing). You must inform the Gardaí of doing so. Once the period of time is up (good rule of thumb is a week), and nothing has been found, it must be removed immediately. If evidence is on the covert CCTV, give it to the Gardaí and allow them to investigate.

It cannot be done any other way than this. Also you must have a good reason to do so, but it appears that you do. Most importantly, it cannot be a long term thing.

dbran

Hi

First things first.

Do you have an employees handbook that sets out the terms and conditions for employment in your business? What does it say about disciplinery procedures? What is termed as gross misconduct and what are the procedures there?

Theft is usually a cause for gross misconduct and can result in summary dismissal. But not every time, especially if it has been going on for a while and everyone in the place is doing it.

Secondly, get some professional advice. Join IBEC or some other employer's association who will be able to give you exact advise or your rights tailored to your situation and also the rights of your employees. A ill thought out response from you can make a bad situation worse. You really do not want to end up in the labour court as it could be very expensive as well as stressful.

Finally, put systems and controls in place so that no more theft can occur Eg you will be checking the daily cash up every day and you will be also carrying out spot checks from time to time during the day. Make it known that these new systems are being employed and why.


Best of luck

dbran

the_syco

mikeyjames9 wrote: »

Who told you that?

Unless it's a large company where you have HR to fear, I generally find people take the piss unless there's a hardass near the top. Be it the headchef of a kitchen, the manager of a pub, or one of the managers in a cinema, unless they're there, the place falls apart. One such shop I worked in had a soft manager. Place slowly started going to sh|t until headoffice replaced him with a stickler for the rules.

pedronomix

Poor, amateur management gets stuffed, same old story, same old result!! OP you were deficient as an owner/manager and the outcome (very bad) lands in your lap. You will get loads of sympathy, loads of post event advice but the bottom line here is that you are the victim of your own mis-management and thus must take the responsibility. If you and your business survive this, you will be a much wiser and careful businessperson, or you will be wiped out by not learning from this.

SureYWouldntYa

Stuff like this used to happen to the man who ran the local. He wasn't the saviest of people, and used to just let whoever was working that night to do up the books.

People would press no sale on the till, and still put the money in, and whatever extra was in the till at the end of the night went in their pocket. Cameras wouldnt pick up on someone not putting in a sale, so this went on for a long time before it was noticed.

dbran

This can be picked up very easily by simply viewing the z reads on the till every day.

Excessive ringing up of low value items, till being opened but no money going in etc are all very easily spotted by even the must simple minded of business owner. And given that it is their own hard earned money that is being stolen it is surprising that it went on for such a long time.

dbran