Another Anti Crime page setup gone downhill

Deise67

Then you have the judiciary who obviously live in a completely different world to everyone else, because nothing else can explain the sentences they give out. The most recent example is this, where a man with 71 previous convictions was caught throwing rocks, bottles and bins on fire at Gardaí during the Queens visit, and the judge gives him a suspended 2 1/2 year sentence!

have to say agree wholeheartly with this comment , was called for jury duty a few months back , what an eye opener ! 100 plus people called , all taking time off work some paid some not (self-employed) three cases all thrown out by the judge ! must be soul destroying to be a guard !

obezyana

Potential-Monke wrote: »

As for the people on about L-Drivers and other non-serious crime

I was only mentioning L drivers and Tax in jest I didn't mean to offend any serving Garda that may have seen my comment. :pac:

sparkling sea

I have now heard of at least different gangs operating in the area.

The everybody knows who this gang is arguement is no longer standing up, because some people think its one gang (that everyone knows) and othe people think its another group (and everyon knows its them too).

I doubt these anti crime pages are of any positive use at all and might even cause cases to collapse, they could easily be seen to interfer with the right to a fair trial. If everybody already sees the accused as guilty because of this type of publicity and naming, the presumption of innocence is gone out the window and with it the right to a fair trial, any solicitor worth their salt will argue this.

Potential-Monke

obezyana wrote: »

I was only mentioning L drivers and Tax in jest I didn't mean to offend any serving Garda that may have seen my comment. :pac:

(Slightly off topic) Wasn't directed at you, just saw L-Drivers mentioned and took it for granted it was another jibe at the Gardaí. I try my best to ignore the comments these days. The anti-Garda brigade are spreading, and between them (and more recently blaming the Gardaí for the Irish Water situation) and the lack of support the Government gives them, it's no surprise if some members of the force no longer have an interest in the job.

This is another prime example of why a Garda may have completely lost interest. They break their balls doing what they can, and when set upon by the criminals they deal with, when off duty, and end up with permanent damage from an attack off-duty on a night out, an attack which was directed at them because they were Gardaí, and the Judge lets the attackers walk free. I don't know of anyone who woulnd't let something like that affect them. So if you see Gardaí not being bothered anymore, there's probably a good reason, that being that even if they act within the law, they can still be held accountable, and no one is supporting them.

sparkling sea

Potential-Monke wrote: »

(Slightly off topic) The anti-Garda brigade are spreading, and between them (and more recently blaming the Gardaí for the Irish Water situation) and the lack of support the Government gives them, it's no surprise if some members of the force no longer have an interest in the job.

They break their balls doing what they can, and when set upon by the criminals they deal with, when off duty, and end up with permanent damage from an attack off-duty on a night out, an attack which was directed at them because they were Gardaí, and the Judge lets the attackers walk free. I don't know of anyone who woulnd't let something like that affect them. So if you see Gardaí not being bothered anymore, there's probably a good reason, that being that even if they act within the law, they can still be held accountable, and no one is supporting them.

Gardai swear a oath to up hold the law and get well paid for doing this. They are not the same as an ordinary members of the public, they are not victims per se even when attacked, they are people getting paid to do a job. There may have been cases when Gardai are attacked and unfortunately they do not receive the justice they deserve, but no stone will go unturned in trying to prove the accused is guilty is these cases. The same standard is not applied when dealing with many civilian victims.

Further more, GSOC recevie a plethora of complaints about the same Gardai in every county, but because the Gardai are in the main investigating themselves, very few of the actual victims of Gardai abuse get the justice they deserve - the dark figure of crime in relation to Garda abuse, is just not recorded here in Ireland.

At the end of the day being a Garda is a job and just like in any other job, if disinterest negates your ability to preform then you should go through the proper disciplinary proceedings and then if the disinterest remains and there isn't health reasons for it, they should be dismissed. Dismissals rarely happen in the Gardai because the Gardai ususally look after each other. Its disappointing that people make excuses for under preformace and bad practive in the Gardai, however its an historical attitude among alot of people and thats why we don't see the changes that would benefit us all

TheNog

sparkling sea wrote: »

Gardai swear a oath to up hold the law and get well paid for doing this. They are not the same as an ordinary members of the public, they are not victims per se even when attacked, they are people getting paid to do a job. There may have been cases when Gardai are attacked and unfortunately they do not receive the justice they deserve, but no stone will go unturned in trying to prove the accused is guilty is these cases.

I'm sorry but that's bull****. Assault against any person is still assault no matter what the job they are doing.

sparkling sea wrote: »

The same standard is not applied when dealing with many civilian victims.

That is simply because usually when a Garda is assaulted he/she is accompanied by other Gardai who make good witnesses. If a member of the public is assaulted it is difficult to find witnesses or even for witnesses to come forward and make statements.

sparkling sea wrote: »

Further more, GSOC recevie a plethora of complaints about the same Gardai in every county, but because the Gardai are in the main investigating themselves, very few of the actual victims of Gardai abuse get the justice they deserve - the dark figure of crime in relation to Garda abuse, is just not recorded here in Ireland.

Just over 2,000 complaints against 13,000 Garda members is hardly a plethora. According to the GSOC report published in March this year almost 6,000 allegations were made. Almost 4,000 of those allegations were inadmissible, no further investigation or deemed not in breach of regulations.

sparkling sea wrote: »

At the end of the day being a Garda is a job and just like in any other job, if disinterest negates your ability to preform then you should go through the proper disciplinary proceedings and then if the disinterest remains and there isn't health reasons for it, they should be dismissed.

Alot of it can be more psychological rather than disinterest. Same as all other ES personnel we see alot of very disturbing things.

sparkling sea wrote: »

Dismissals rarely happen in the Gardai because the Gardai ususally look after each other. Its disappointing that people make excuses for under preformace and bad practive in the Gardai, however its an historical attitude among alot of people and thats why we don't see the changes that would benefit us all

If you could see what we see on the other side of the fence you might change your opinion. Many other Garda members will tell you straight out internal investigations are sometimes likened to witch hunts. I have seen it myself against another Garda member and it sickened me tbh. Just to point out I had met this Garda member only once and did not know him at all.

Potential-Monke

sparkling sea wrote: »

They are not the same as an ordinary members of the public, they are not victims per se even when attacked, they are people getting paid to do a job.

The Nog answered everything above, but i just had to pick this part out. This sentence implies that it's ok to attack a Garda. Are you serious? Are you saying that a Garda should be expected to be assaulted when trying to uphold the law? Are you saying that assaults on members holds less importance? Yes, they're getting paid to do a job (because, lets be honest, the majority of people wouldn't even dream of doing it), but you think that's a good enough reason for them to expect to get assaulted? It's attitudes like this that leads to the situation i described above. Why would a member bother putting him or herself in dangers way when the public believe that getting assaulted is acceptable?

The Government, Judiciary and Laws in this country have made the Gardaí the way they are today. What employee would still give 110% knowing that, if everything doesn't work out perfectly, there's a witch hunt and no support? The Gardaí are still doing their jobs, in increasingly difficult times, with less members, less support, no back-up and increased crime (regardless of the media spin). There are things I could tell you, but i'd end up in jail for telling them, because the powers that be don't want them told.

There are two sides to every story, and unfortunately the Garda side is gagged and muted, the public believe every article they read, most of which only tell one side. The Government doesn't protect them, GSOC are still trying to prove a point and don't care who they sh!t on to do it. And now, pages like this are making the job harder because any solicitor worth their salt are keeping an eye on these pages and using it to get unfair trials and get their clients off. That is why these pages do more damage than good. That is why these pages should not put up anything without proof. And that is why Gardaí may have lost interest, and why they may be doing just enough to stay out of trouble and within the law. The days of a proactive force is gone, and the reactive force is barely holding on. Want reform? Then it needs to come from the top down, not the ground up, where the vast majority of the 10,000 on the street members are good and honest people.

sparkling sea

Potential-Monke wrote: »

The Nog answered everything above, but i just had to pick this part out. This sentence implies that it's ok to attack a Garda. Are you serious? Are you saying that a Garda should be expected to be assaulted when trying to uphold the law? Are you saying that assaults on members holds less importance? Yes, they're getting paid to do a job (because, lets be honest, the majority of people wouldn't even dream of doing it), but you think that's a good enough reason for them to expect to get assaulted? It's attitudes like this that leads to the situation i described above. Why would a member bother putting him or herself in dangers way when the public believe that getting assaulted is acceptable?

The Government, Judiciary and Laws in this country have made the Gardaí the way they are today. What employee would still give 110% knowing that, if everything doesn't work out perfectly, there's a witch hunt and no support? The Gardaí are still doing their jobs, in increasingly difficult times, with less members, less support, no back-up and increased crime (regardless of the media spin). There are things I could tell you, but i'd end up in jail for telling them, because the powers that be don't want them told.

There are two sides to every story, and unfortunately the Garda side is gagged and muted, the public believe every article they read, most of which only tell one side. The Government doesn't protect them, GSOC are still trying to prove a point and don't care who they sh!t on to do it. And now, pages like this are making the job harder because any solicitor worth their salt are keeping an eye on these pages and using it to get unfair trials and get their clients off. That is why these pages do more damage than good. That is why these pages should not put up anything without proof. And that is why Gardaí may have lost interest, and why they may be doing just enough to stay out of trouble and within the law. The days of a proactive force is gone, and the reactive force is barely holding on. Want reform? Then it needs to come from the top down, not the ground up, where the vast majority of the 10,000 on the street members are good and honest people.

Point out that a certainty of being attacked implies that it is ok for someone to attack is a huge leap and an odd conslucion to draw.

I complete agree that the vast majority of Gardai have good intentions however as was pointed out in the Morris Tribunal, there is a very high likelhood that problems exist in every Gardai station The Garda force were found to be corrupt in the 1970's, 1990's, the 2000's and again now and there is nothing to suggest that anything has changed

While I think its completely wrong for any person to be attacked by another, it is hardly surprising that some Gardai are attacked but nowhere have I said it is acceptable, it is however part of the job.

The Gardai investigating themselves and sweeping aside 4000 GSOC complaints is hardly surprising, but as I previously pointed out, most people in Waterford will know or know of someone who was assualted by a Gardai The Holland case and the amount of men I have heard of, who had complained to GSOC about the now imprisioned Garda only goes to show, the Garda connot ivestigate themselves at any level; its also show that a culture of turning a blind eye to bad eyes also exists and this is a bad reflection on all Gardai.

At fact that little appears to have changed since the Morris Tribunal is the greatest problem facing the Gardai, the Blue Wall of Silence still exists and some people would well to remeber the following summary of the findings "Many gardaí lied to the Tribunal and built up a “blue wall of silence”, refusing to give evidence against one another. This element of garda subculture was succinctly portrayed to the Tribunal by one garda who stated that “You don’t hang your own” (p.91). Perhaps one of the most worrying suggestions from Justice Morris in the course of the Tribunal was that there were no particular factors at play which might mean that the events which occurred in Donegal were specific to that district alone:
“Of the Gardaí serving in Donegal it cannot be said that they are unrepresentative or an aberration from the generality. All of them were trained as Gardaí and served under a uniform structure of administration and discipline that is standardised.” (Fifth Report, para.6.02, quoted at p.90)

None of this takes away from the fact that there are some exceptional good Gardai but this despite of the internal culture and not because of it IMO.

TheNog

sparkling sea wrote: »

I complete agree that the vast majority of Gardai have good intentions however as was pointed out in the Morris Tribunal, there is a very high likelhood that problems exist in every Gardai station The Garda force were found to be corrupt in the 1970's, 1990's, the 2000's and again now and there is nothing to suggest that anything has changed

There is always going to be corruption at all levels of very facet of life, no exceptions. The problem is how to deal with the situation and prevent it from happening again. Will AGS ever get rid of all corruption within its ranks? No. Granted on occasion AGS has not shown itself in perfect light.

The Gardai investigating themselves and sweeping aside 4000 GSOC complaints is hardly surprising,

Hold on a minute that is a fairly serious statement to make. Have you any links to support this or is it just your opinion?

but as I previously pointed out, most people in Waterford will know or know of someone who was assualted by a Gardai The Holland case and the amount of men I have heard of, who had complained to GSOC about the now imprisioned Garda only goes to show, the Garda connot ivestigate themselves at any level; its also show that a culture of turning a blind eye to bad eyes also exists and this is a bad reflection on all Gardai.

Since GSOC was set up AGS and the GRA have been saying GSOC should be doing all investigations. There is however no political foresight for this to happen and now there is no money to increase the GSOC budget.

At fact that little appears to have changed since the Morris Tribunal is the greatest problem facing the Gardai, the Blue Wall of Silence still exists and some people would well to remeber the following summary of the findings "Many gardaí lied to the Tribunal and built up a “blue wall of silence”, refusing to give evidence against one another. This element of garda subculture was succinctly portrayed to the Tribunal by one garda who stated that “You don’t hang your own” (p.91). Perhaps one of the most worrying suggestions from Justice Morris in the course of the Tribunal was that there were no particular factors at play which might mean that the events which occurred in Donegal were specific to that district alone:
“Of the Gardaí serving in Donegal it cannot be said that they are unrepresentative or an aberration from the generality. All of them were trained as Gardaí and served under a uniform structure of administration and discipline that is standardised.” (Fifth Report, para.6.02, quoted at p.90)

The job has changed significantly since these incidents of the 1990's and the subsequent tribunal from 2002 - 2008. Everything a Garda member on the street does is now under close scrutiny from all angles be it management or the public. Look at the latest Irish Water disturbances on Youtube.

Is it a good thing though? Accountability is a good thing. It creates a hell of a lot of paperwork but it is good. If you have nothing to hide then no need to be worried.

None of this takes away from the fact that there are some exceptional good Gardai but this despite of the internal culture and not because of it IMO.

It is not ' there are some exceptional good Gardai' rather there are many exceptional Gardai. It is just that people remember the one bad encounter over 2-3 good encounters. Fact of life.

Fate Amenable To Change

TheNog wrote: »

It is not ' there are some exceptional good Gardai' rather there are many exceptional Gardai. It is just that people remember the one bad encounter over 2-3 good encounters. Fact of life.

One out of 3 would be shocking in my opinion. Gardai do good work and I know they're hassled. Wish there would be more numbers put on the street to actually deal with the crimes.

I remember a few years ago on a Saturday night there would be more than a few gardai outside the nightclubs in case of trouble... only very rarely do I see even a couple now.

If you asked me I'd give the majority of Guards trained Guard dogs. Well trained and able to subdue someone very quickly without the extremes of a gun. I can't see someone throwing chips at a Guard with a trained dog. At least no Guard would be left alone in very troubling positions. Expensive but it would definitely be worth it.

Chip Whitley

Just passed a large crowd of people down on Manor St, chanting and a few people running toward the scene. Guards are out down there too. I thought of this thread straight away, anyone know what's going on? It was causing trafific delays whatever it was.

MitchKoobski

They're all gathered outside someones house chanting "OUT OUT OUT". Thats all I can grasp from it anyway. https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=837447799634241

cookie.monster

tis the roma gypsie house

Shellakybooky

More scum in that video then there probably is in that house

jebus84

Why aren't they protesting outside Gregory Hennessy house?

reni10

And now the Guards are protecting them it seems but they are never around when someone is being beaten up or robbed by them!

This is what happens when no action is taken by the Guards, people will only take so much!

Fate Amenable To Change

reni10 wrote: »

And now the Guards are protecting them it seems but they are never around when someone is being beaten up or robbed by them!

This is what happens when no action is taken by the Guards, people will only take so much!

The Guards can't pick or choose who to protect, its a slippery slope and would lead to anarchy very quickly. If there isn't a Guard on duty then its not the ones on the ground that are to blame. Not saying they're all perfect, they most definitely are not, but thats a comment that doesn't help anyone or anything.

Shellakybooky

reni10 wrote: »

And now the Guards are protecting them it seems but they are never around when someone is being beaten up or robbed by them!

This is what happens when no action is taken by the Guards, people will only take so much!

Ah the mob look great don't they? Leave them at it, never mind any children in the house. Burn the place down yeah. Beat them and kill them off sure while you are at it. Go for it reni10

reni10

So what other options are there when they continue to rob and beat people and it is reported to the Guards every time and nothing happens?

I suppose you Shellakybooky would prefer another beating tonight for an innocent person walking along there than something to be done about it?
It would be nice to live in your world...

deise08

Had to drive past there a few mins ago. I only hope it doesn't turn nasty!

mooseknunkle

One person arrested according to Damien Tiernan

https://twitter.com/damienrte/status/526077077515411456

jebus84

reni10 wrote: »

So what other options are there when they continue to rob and beat people and it is reported to the Guards every time and nothing happens?

I suppose you Shellakybooky would prefer another beating tonight for an innocent person walking along there than something to be done about it?
It would be nice to live in your world...

is that the real problem!

reni10

I think nothing happening after the reports is a large factor jebus84, people feel they have no other option.

This is a criminal gang that the Guards have had numerous reports of over the last few months and they continue as if they had never been reported and each week another few people are beaten up and robbed.

I witnessed it myself at 9am one weekday morning with them openly dealing drugs near the children's play park and could not really believe what I was seeing...

Shellakybooky

reni10 wrote: »

So what other options are there when they continue to rob and beat people and it is reported to the Guards every time and nothing happens?

I suppose you Shellakybooky would prefer another beating tonight for an innocent person walking along there than something to be done about it?
It would be nice to live in your world...

And what about the children that live there reno10?
Let the mob beat and break down their doors?
That will teach them. I'm not defending anyone.
But this attack is disgusting. A lot more well know people causing sh*t around this town for years and no one cared.

7upfree

Shellakybooky wrote: »

And what about the children that live there reno10?
Let the mob beat and break down their doors?
That will teach them. I'm not defending anyone.
But this attack is disgusting. A lot more well know people causing sh*t around this town for years and no one cared.

Are these the babies that are dragged around the city centre in the depths of winter - begging?

reni10

I believe the social services have been informed numerous times and so have the Guards but nothing has been done.

They are blatantly seen begging with children even though that is against the law and I have reported this and it has then been witnessed by the Guards.

It may seem strange but maybe the mob down there will actually help these children as they now may actually be taken into state protection as they should have been many months ago.

Sully

reni10 wrote: »

And now the Guards are protecting them it seems but they are never around when someone is being beaten up or robbed by them!

This is what happens when no action is taken by the Guards, people will only take so much!

The Guards weren't there at the beginning when the crowd arrived initially. They had came earlier to break up a fight in Railway Square, and left. When the larger crowd came and when two of the mob broke the window AND kicked in the door of the house, it was a good 15mins after that before they arrived (bar a squad car doing a loop, but waiting for backup). They just stood at the house to prevent anybody entering and was small enough numbers.

Backup arrived a good while later, by form of Armed Gardai and extra units, when the Guards themselves were being abused and pushed around at the rear of the house resulting in one arrest.

reni10 wrote: »

So what other options are there when they continue to rob and beat people and it is reported to the Guards every time and nothing happens?

I suppose you Shellakybooky would prefer another beating tonight for an innocent person walking along there than something to be done about it?
It would be nice to live in your world...

The way our policing system works is we have Gardai driving around towns and cities on the lookout and if they see an offence being committed, there on it. I've witnessed this over the years, whether it be a Traffic Offence or something happening in public like an assault.

When a report of a crime comes in, they attend and take statements. If there are no witnesses and it's one word against the other, our legal system limits what can be done. What's to stop me accusing my neighbouring of beating me up, and my neighbouring denying it? I have nothing to prove it. If they pick my pocket, or rob me, but I can't prove it then once again there is little the Gardai can do.

I don't believe for one second the Gardai are protecting anybody.

The mob can chant away, and the keyboard warriors online can have a good moan about the guards protecting them. But this mob had ample opportunity to do something, the same thing they were threatening to do, but didn't. They broke into the house without a Garda present, and ran back across the road to continue chanting. One of them covered up their face, the other didn't bother. The alleged gang were not being protected and the mob didn't do anything.

allthedoyles

mooseknunkle wrote: »

One person arrested according to Damien Tiernan

https://twitter.com/damienrte/status/526077077515411456

Probably arrested for disturbing the peace .

Shellakybooky

7upfree wrote: »

Are these the babies that are dragged around the city centre in the depths of winter - begging?

They are yes. Still wondering what a mob breaking down their windows does for these children ?

jebus84

Who Watches the Watchmen