International or Club football?

CSF

rarnes1 wrote: »

Interested in the topic myself but wading through lots of posts bickering makes it difficult.

It's an interesting subject but always veers way off topic

To be fair, considering the key demographic on this forum is Premier League fans from Ireland, locality was always going to become an issue in here. Those who said club football were less likely to consider locality a factor, and those who prefer international football (those who choose Ireland as their international football team at least) were likely to consider locality and nationality a massive factor, hence it becoming the crux of the thread.

It is very different from it becoming part of a thread about something random, which admittedly it sometimes does.

anncoates

rarnes1 wrote: »

Interested in the topic myself but wading through lots of posts bickering makes it difficult.

It's an interesting subject but always veers way off topic

It's impossible to discuss the topic of Ireland vs club without the elephant in the room. It's an Irish forum.

LuckyLloyd

anncoates wrote: »

It's impossible to discuss the topic of Ireland vs club without the elephant in the room. It's an Irish forum.

Well no, that isn't a fair representation of what is going on here at all.

The question of International Football versus Club is valid and interesting - and it applies to the question of Shamrock Rovers vs Ireland aswell as Liverpool vs Ireland. However, it is being deliberately hijacked by the 'oh the poor aul LOI, if only we had REAL football fans in this country' agenda.

anncoates

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well no, that isn't a fair representation of what is going on here at all.

The question of International Football versus Club is valid and interesting - and it applies to the question of Shamrock Rovers vs Ireland aswell as Liverpool vs Ireland. However, it is being deliberately hijacked by the 'oh the poor aul LOI, if only we had REAL football fans in this country' agenda.

That's your opinion. Fair enough.

I'm not crying as a result of it being expressed.

CSF

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well no, that isn't a fair representation of what is going on here at all.

The question of International Football versus Club is valid and interesting - and it applies to the question of Shamrock Rovers vs Ireland aswell as Liverpool vs Ireland. However, it is being deliberately hijacked by the 'oh the poor aul LOI, if only we had REAL football fans in this country' agenda.

Actually not the case, I'm pretty sure the guy who started off the thing about guys who prefer English clubs to the Irish team needing a slap is not a LOI fan, well not one with any posts in the LOI threads if he is (which naturally I very much doubt given the facts available)

From there, you've a tonne of guys being highly offended letting us all know why this guy is completely wrong, if your expectation is that people won't vocally disagree with those points, if that is their opinion, then you are being unreasonable.

You could make the argument that if that guy hadn't done it, someone else would have, but
a) I think it is better to discuss what actually happened rather than what might have happened
and
b) That just goes to show how a thread in Ireland about club or country was always going to go down the route of nationality considering one is supported because of locality, and one is not.

galwaylad14

I'm not an LOI fan and never have been (no particular reason just none of my friends or family were ever really into it) but I would follow the premiership but wouldn't support any particular team but I would be a big fan of the Irish soccer team, simply because they represent me and my country. And I really can't get my head around how any Irish man could care more about Liverpool or Chelsea ahead of a team that represents us and our country.

I'd be more of a gaa and in particular hurling fan. So my favourite teams would be my local hurling club and then the Galway hurling and football teams. Their my favourite teams because they represent me and where I live, they are a huge part of me and my family and friends and they always have been and always will be. It's the same reason Ireland are my favourite soccer team,(and if I followed LOI I presume I'd feel like this towards Galway FC aswell).

People can support who they like and it makes no difference to me but I don't believe that an Irish person can ever have the same feeling and sheer emotional investment towards man utd or Miami heat or whoever as I have in Galway and my club and Ireland

ionadnapokot

if I had to choose between my LOI club winning the League or ROI qualifying for the EC or WC. Ireland.
LOI club qualifying for CLeague or ROI qualifying for the EC or WC. Mmmm.... LOI club
Chicken and Egg

"galwaylad14

"galwaylad14 wrote: »

I don't believe that an Irish person can ever have the same feeling and sheer emotional investment towards man utd or Miami heat or whoever as I have in Galway and my club and Ireland

How can you actually know that? Unless you have some way of measuring emotional investment it's just pretty much nonsense.

Some people couldn't care less about their local gaa/football team and invest more time into supporting a team elsewhere.

Fr Tod Umptious

rarnes1 wrote: »

How can you actually know that? Unless you have some way of measuring emotional investment it's just pretty much nonsense.

Some people couldn't care less about their local gaa/football team and invest more time into supporting a team elsewhere.

But it's bizarre that someone from Ireland could have more emotional attachment to, say, The Vancouver White Caps, than to the Irish national team.

It just is.

Omackeral

rarnes1 wrote: »

Some people couldn't care less about their local gaa/football team and invest more time into supporting a team elsewhere.

Yes but that's probably if they don't like GAA in the first place. Chances are a Cork man will follow the Cork GAA team and a Dub will follow Dublin GAA. In fact it's the norm.

Will I Amnt

Can someone clear up a few instances for me if they could?

- A new club comes along in the LOI eg: Sporting Fingal in 2007, a grown man decides this is the team for him. He is more a proper fan than an Irish fan following Leeds United for 30 years?

- The LOI team you support ceases to exist eg: Home Farm, Dublin City, Sporting Fingal etc. You pick another team, a team that you were willing to lose and probably screamed abuse at for years, you are more a proper fan than any Irish man supporting Arsenal all his life?

- An Irish Sheffield Wednesday fan who has no interest in LOI but goes along to his local Leinster Senior League games every other week, is he considered less of a fan than a Sligo Rovers man that rarely misses a game?

CSF

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Can someone clear up a few instances for me if they could?

- A new club comes along in the LOI eg: Sporting Fingal in 2007, a grown man decides this is the team for him. He is more a proper fan than an Irish fan following Leeds United for 30 years?

- The LOI team you support ceases to exist eg: Home Farm, Dublin City, Sporting Fingal etc. You pick another team, a team that you were willing to lose and probably screamed abuse at for years, you are more a proper fan than any Irish man supporting Arsenal all his life?

- An Irish Sheffield Wednesday fan who has no interest in LOI but goes along to his local Leinster Senior League games every other week, is he considered less of a fan than a Sligo Rovers man that rarely misses a game?

I can clear up my opinion, which probably is different to plenty of other LOI fans, we're not the same person.

Yes for the first 2. Its not how long you've supported a team, it is how you support the team, if some guy who has supported Man United all his life starts supporting Shels tomorrow I certainly don't have any airs and graces about being a better Shels fan than him. That sort of thing is a load of crap IMO.

For the third one, no, I don't think supporting a Leinster Senior League team is any way inferior to supporting the Premier Division champions. Most LOI fans (myself included) also support other teams (but know that it isn't really the same) so I don't see why LSL fans should be any different.

I know yours was only a hypothetical scenario, but I don't think many LSL clubs have many regular matchgoing fans, if they do, more power to them.

symbolic

Don't know a lot about this subject.. But interested. Would a lot of Irish national team players not have played for English teams/even been born in England played for Ireland? And prob watched more English club football than Irish club football/attended/commented /tweeted on more English club football than Irish club football. I don't think the Irish football team players would have been too pushed with you guys supporting English clubs.

CSF

symbolic wrote: »

Don't know a lot about this subject.. But interested. Would a lot of Irish national team players not have played for English teams/even been born in England played for Ireland? And prob watched more English club football than Irish club football/attended/commented /tweeted on more English club football than Irish club football. I don't think the Irish football team players would have been too pushed with you guys supporting English clubs.

To be honest I don't think anyone really cares what the players think on the subject. It's the club or country you support, rather than individuals who play for it.

symbolic

CSF wrote: »

To be honest I don't think anyone really cares what the players think on the subject. It's the club or country you support, rather than individuals who play for it.

I get ya... I thought it was funny people being upset about supporting an English club over their country team when the people who play for the country team prob do the exact same thing so it's prob fine?

Is part of the crux of this the disjoint between Irish club teams and the national team.. There seems to be a problem there even before fans get involved.

Will I Amnt

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Can someone clear up a few instances for me if they could?

- A new club comes along in the LOI eg: Sporting Fingal in 2007, a grown man decides this is the team for him. He is more a proper fan than an Irish fan following Leeds United for 30 years?

- The LOI team you support ceases to exist eg: Home Farm, Dublin City, Sporting Fingal etc. You pick another team, a team that you were willing to lose and probably screamed abuse at for years, you are more a proper fan than any Irish man supporting Arsenal all his life?

- An Irish Sheffield Wednesday fan who has no interest in LOI but goes along to his local Leinster Senior League games every other week, is he considered less of a fan than a Sligo Rovers man that rarely misses a game?

I see you have decided to join in with gusto...it seems so long ago when you posted...

Will I Amnt wrote: »

The thread is miles off topic and has been from the get go. It's now LOI v EPL and it was sticking out like a sore thumb that it was going to come down to that from the thread title.

Will I Amnt

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I see you have decided to join in with gusto...it seems so long ago when you posted...

The thread is still miles off topic, what's your point?

Greyfox

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But it's bizarre that someone from Ireland could have more emotional attachment to, say, The Vancouver White Caps, than to the Irish national team.

It just is.

Very unlikely to happen but what if a guy spent years living in Canada and his social circle was dominated by this teams fans that he became a fan himself and over time loved going to matches, he also ended up marrying a woman who was a big fan and returned to Ireland, he has now invested emotion into this team and will more then likely continue to do so. Also he watches the odd Ireland match but like lots of Irish people he either never or very rarely gets an emotional high from it so it just doesn’t matter to him as much.

A stronger emotional attachment to an English club for example is perfectly normal and understandable if you grow up surrounded by fans of English football and if none of your inner circle follow LOI and if you think the national team is rubbish.

COYVB

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But it's bizarre that someone from Ireland could have more emotional attachment to, say, The Vancouver White Caps, than to the Irish national team.

It just is.

Maybe they think the international game is a pointless waste of time that gets in the way of proper club football comprising of teams who pay and train with each other every week rather than the occasional representative sortie abroad for a couple of days training and a kickaround with a few lads they play with a handful of times a year

Greyfox

CSF wrote: »

Yes for the first 2

What a load of nonsense. If the Leeds fan has went to matches live he’s definitely more of a proper fan. This would be a man that’s been through loads of bad periods with his club and is still a loyal and true fan by not supporting another team now that his club is no longer doing well.

Yes, someone going to matches is more of a fan then someone who never goes to matches. If the team you support is from Ireland rather then England this does not automatically make you more of a fan. How much of a fan you are is down to how much effort and emotion you invest in your team.

Ferris_Bueller

Greyfox wrote: »

What a load of nonsense. If the Leeds fan has went to matches live he’s definitely more of a proper fan. This would be a man that’s been through loads of bad periods with his club and is still a loyal and true fan by not supporting another team now that his club is no longer doing well.

Yes, someone going to matches is more of a fan then someone who never goes to matches. If the team you support is from Ireland rather then England this does not automatically make you more of a fan. How much of a fan you are is down to how much effort and emotion you invest in your team.

While I agree with a lot of CSFs points in this thread, I agree with Greyfox here. There is emotional attachment to any club if you have been supporting them for a few years, so to say if someone just started going to LoI games it instantly makes them a better fan can't be true. I would put a lot of it down to going to games every week, the more you go to games the more invested you are, and usually LoI fans will simply go to a lot more games than supporters of English clubs, but there are a lot who do travel over to most games.

Omackeral

Greyfox wrote: »

Very unlikely to happen but what if a guy spent years living in Canada and his social circle was dominated by this teams fans that he became a fan himself and over time loved going to matcheshe also ended up marrying a woman who was a big fan and returned to Ireland, he has now invested emotion into this team and will more then likely continue to do so. Also he watches the odd Ireland match but like lots of Irish people he either never or very rarely gets an emotional high from it so it just doesn’t matter to him as much.

A stronger emotional attachment to an English club for example is perfectly normal and understandable if you grow up surrounded by fans of English football and if none of your inner circle follow LOI and if you think the national team is rubbish.

Do this and your as big a fan as anyone in my book.

CSF

Greyfox wrote: »

What a load of nonsense. If the Leeds fan has went to matches live he’s definitely more of a proper fan. This would be a man that’s been through loads of bad periods with his club and is still a loyal and true fan by not supporting another team now that his club is no longer doing well.

Yes, someone going to matches is more of a fan then someone who never goes to matches. If the team you support is from Ireland rather then England this does not automatically make you more of a fan. How much of a fan you are is down to how much effort and emotion you invest in your team.

Well of course you're going to say that, I was hardly expecting you to come on and say otherwise. The effort and emotion line has been trotted out in all sorts of discussions relating to this but it doesn't change what a fan is and always has been. Increased exposure to football on TV and cheaper Ryanair flights haven't suddenly changed that.

People can have a go at me all they want (and they will) but in the end I'm merely responding to hypotheticals put forward by another poster

CSF

Omackeral wrote: »

Do this and your as big a fan as anyone in my book.

Of course, they're his local team then. The notion that to support a team you have to declare it in a schoolyard at the age of 6 based on which shiny you got in your Premier League sticker pack is nonsense.

Omackeral

CSF wrote: »

Of course, they're his local team then. The notion that to support a team you have to declare it in a schoolyard at the age of 6 based on which shiny you got in your Premier League sticker pack is nonsense.

Especially if you already had it in a swap.

CSF

Omackeral wrote: »

Especially if you already had it in a swap.

I'd have been a Wimbledon fan, the likes of Warren Barton and Alan Kimble seemed to be in every f*ckin pack!!!!

Omackeral

Carlton Palmer was forever in my pocket.

Will I Amnt

Will I Amnt wrote: »

The thread is still miles off topic, what's your point?

But you are too. Whereas initially you appeared to be objecting because you believed it off topic.

Will I Amnt

[Deleted User] wrote: »

But you are too. Whereas initially you appeared to be objecting because you believed it off topic.

I was. Would I have preferred to stick to the original topic? Yes. Does that mean I can't have an opinion or contribute to what it is now? No.

galwaylad14

rarnes1 wrote: »

How can you actually know that? Unless you have some way of measuring emotional investment it's just pretty much nonsense.

Some people couldn't care less about their local gaa/football team and invest more time into supporting a team elsewhere.

Maybe I'm being obtuse here but I just can't get my head around how any clear thinking, logical individual from say Roscommon can have an emotional attachment to Leeds United or mk dons or whoever. They're just a team from a random city in England that you decided you liked when you were about 8. You have no actual reason to support them outside of you liked their jerseys or your cousin visited there once and brought you back a scarf or they had some Irish player at the time or something.

They're not reasons. I support my teams because they represent where I'm from and my people, they are a part of me.

I didn't have a choice in supporting my teams, I was born into it and it's been a part of who I am for as long as I remember. This is a big shout now but I think if you have to actively "choose" a team to support then you're not a fan in the sane way as someone who supports a team because it's just a way of life and what they were always naturally going to do, there's no choice about it

Will I Amnt

galwaylad14 wrote: »

This is a big shout now but I think if you have to actively "choose" a team to support then you're not a fan in the sane way as someone who supports a team because it's just a way of life and what they were always naturally going to do, there's no choice about it

I would still have to choose a team if I were to support an LOI team ever again.

Iang87

I dont understand why you must go to matches to be a "proper" fan. Lets say I dont have the 10 - 15 quid spare to go to my local team each week. Does that mean i'm not a proper fan?

I think theres so many variables to this people just dont get it. I live in Limerick so the irish soccer team to me growing up may aswell have been an english club. There was no way I was going to be going to any of the matches so growing up they went on a par with my club side, I was only going to see them on TV.

galwaylad14

Iang87 wrote: »

I dont understand why you must go to matches to be a "proper" fan. Lets say I dont have the 10 - 15 quid spare to go to my local team each week. Does that mean i'm not a proper fan?

I think theres so many variables to this people just dont get it. I live in Limerick so the irish soccer team to me growing up may aswell have been an english club. There was no way I was going to be going to any of the matches so growing up they went on a par with my club side, I was only going to see them on TV.

But you're actually from Ireland! You're not from Manchester or whatever random city the random club you support are from.

Does that not mean anything?

Iang87

Iang87 wrote: »

I live in Limerick so the irish soccer team to me growing up may aswell have been an english club.

Is Limerick not in Ireland, or was it not there when you were growing up?

Do you not appreciate the connection between Limerick and Ireland, or do you really think it is one and the same as Limerick and (any random place in England)?

citytillidie

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But it's bizarre that someone from Ireland could have more emotional attachment to, say, The Vancouver White Caps, than to the Irish national team.

It just is.

Why not I lived in Montreal for a while and got a season ticket there for $120 and attended every game while I was there and that was before the Impact were in the MLS, since then I have followed there results

CSF

Iang87 wrote: »

I dont understand why you must go to matches to be a "proper" fan. Lets say I dont have the 10 - 15 quid spare to go to my local team each week. Does that mean i'm not a proper fan?

I think theres so many variables to this people just dont get it. I live in Limerick so the irish soccer team to me growing up may aswell have been an english club. There was no way I was going to be going to any of the matches so growing up they went on a par with my club side, I was only going to see them on TV.

Jesus man, what sorta deadly deal did you get on your Sky package because I know mine is costing me alot more than my match tickets are.

Ironically, and more on topic, international football is quickly becoming the only football we're getting for free with the Champions League being gradually absorbed by Sky, so naturally that should be the budget-conscious individual's choice of football.

CSF

citytillidie wrote: »

Why not I lived in Montreal for a while and got a season ticket there for $120 and attended every game while I was there and that was before the Impact were in the MLS, since then I have followed there results

That is different and you know it is.

Iang87

galwaylad14 wrote: »

But you're actually from Ireland! You're not from Manchester or whatever random city the random club you support are from.

Does that not mean anything?

I do support Limerick aswell and i'd rather see them do well than Ireland aswell. Whatever my reasons for supporting Liverpool growing up, they're not my reasons now so its irrelevant. You grow and become more attached to the club or you grow and detach, thats my opinion on that.

Deleted User wrote: »

Is Limerick not in Ireland, or was it not there when you were growing up?

Do you not appreciate the connection between Limerick and Ireland, or do you really think it is one and the same as Limerick and (any random place in England)?

The point is they were based in dublin and growing up that may aswell have been england cos I wasnt going to either for anything. Outside of the obligatory school tour to the zoo. I didnt go there so to me it was a million miles off.

CSF wrote: »

Jesus man, what sorta deadly deal did you get on your Sky package because I know mine is costing me alot more than my match tickets are.

Ironically, and more on topic, international football is quickly becoming the only football we're getting for free with the Champions League being gradually absorbed by Sky, so naturally that should be the budget-conscious individual's choice of football.

I was talking about growing up when to go to an ireland match I had to be brought and interestingly in saying that it would cost more for me to get a train to dublin and spend a night there and go out have dinner, go to the match and a few pints than it would to go to liverpool for the same thing.

Iang87

Iang87 wrote: »

The point is they were based in dublin and growing up that may aswell have been england cos I wasnt going to either for anything.

But do you think people in Dublin have some deeper connection with Ireland because the Dáil is there and the GPO and the 1916 Rising took place there and Kilmainham Jail is there and so on and they can visit them?

I really do not understand that proximity to Dublin changes ones feelings about the country, whether that be pride in the our culture or support for our football team.

Not that I'm remotely prescribing that you must be proud of being Irish, you don't have to be...but would never have though distance from Dublin a factor in following Ireland or an Irish team in anything.

niallo27

CSF wrote: »

Jesus man, what sorta deadly deal did you get on your Sky package because I know mine is costing me alot more than my match tickets are.

Ironically, and more on topic, international football is quickly becoming the only football we're getting for free with the Champions League being gradually absorbed by Sky, so naturally that should be the budget-conscious individual's choice of football.

I get every football match in TV for about 3 euro a month.

niallo27

galwaylad14 wrote: »

Maybe I'm being obtuse here but I just can't get my head around how any clear thinking, logical individual from say Roscommon can have an emotional attachment to Leeds United or mk dons or whoever. They're just a team from a random city in England that you decided you liked when you were about 8. You have no actual reason to support them outside of you liked their jerseys or your cousin visited there once and brought you back a scarf or they had some Irish player at the time or something.

They're not reasons. I support my teams because they represent where I'm from and my people, they are a part of me.

I didn't have a choice in supporting my teams, I was born into it and it's been a part of who I am for as long as I remember. This is a big shout now but I think if you have to actively "choose" a team to support then you're not a fan in the sane way as someone who supports a team because it's just a way of life and what they were always naturally going to do, there's no choice about it

What if your travelling to games for years following them all over England and meeting the same fans the whole time having a few beers getting bottles ****ed at ya, people spitting in your face, getting a thump for no reason and having the Craic. Do you not think you could build up a tiny emotional attachment attachment by then.

Omackeral

niallo27 wrote: »

What if your travelling to games for years following them all over England and meeting the same fans the whole time having a few beers getting bottles ****ed at ya, people spitting in your face, getting a thump for no reason and having the Craic. Do you not think you could build up a tiny emotional attachment attachment by then.

Sounds like great fun!

CSF

niallo27 wrote: »

I get every football match in TV for about 3 euro a month.

You pay 3 euro a month? How?

niallo27

CSF wrote: »

You pay 3 euro a month? How?

Dodgy box for sky and can run streams through my TV for 3 o'clock games.

niallo27

Omackeral wrote: »

Sounds like great fun!

Away games are brilliant man. 99 times out of 100 there is no trouble.

Omackeral

niallo27 wrote: »

Dodgy box for sky and can run streams through my TV for 3 o'clock games.

Super fan contributing to your club.

CSF

niallo27 wrote: »

Dodgy box for sky and can run streams through my TV for 3 o'clock games.

So your club doesn't actually benefit at all from you watching their games? And you've entered this argument of all arguments?

Omackeral

niallo27 wrote: »

Away games are brilliant man. 99 times out of 100 there is no trouble.

I know. I go to them all the the time. Funnily enough I've only ever been to away games for Ireland. Ultimate Sunshine stuff!

CSF

Omackeral wrote: »

I know. I go to them all the the time. Funnily enough I've only ever been to away games for Ireland. Ultimate Sunshine stuff!

How do you build an emotional attachment if nobody has ever spit in your face though?

niallo27

Omackeral wrote: »

Super fan contributing to your club.

They have enough money. I go in Thomand park when I can and give a few euro to limerick when I can.