International or Club football?

COYVB

The Golden Miller wrote: »

With some exceptions, Irish fans following teams in the Premiership are just glory hunting bandwagon sheep. Funny how the vast majority all follow United, Liverpool,Chelsea and Arsenal. Some Man City jerseys popping up around the place since they became successful. You used to see the Leeds jerseys during the early 2000's. It's pathetic really. Then you have the fans who randomly pick the lower teams for the sake of it, to seem more real, to prove they aren't just doing it just to be glory hunters. All in all, a pathetic superficial bunch.

Your location is Meath, so you don't support any LOI team I take it, since there are none there. MDL team for you I assume?

Omackeral

COYVB wrote: »

Your location is Meath, so you don't support any LOI team I take it, since there are none there. MDL team for you I assume?

Drogheda stretches into Co Meath and they've a decent support from there.

Also, the Space exploration point was the best thing I've ever read to be honest. Let me paraphrase "you can be a massive fan of space without ever actually going there". Brilliant.

The Golden Miller

The Golden Miller wrote: »

then you have the fans who randomly pick the lower teams for the sake of it, to seem more real, to prove they aren't just doing it just to be glory hunters. All in all, a pathetic superficial bunch.

Remember Des Cahill's push to get everyone supporting Rochdale in the early 90s?

He thought it was gas...but may have been a certain amount of uncomfortable insight in it.

COYVB

Omackeral wrote: »

Drogheda stretches into Co Meath and they've a decent support from there.

But by the logic here, Meath people have no ties to Drogheda. Sure they can drive there in a short enough time, but they're not FROM there. (I say this as someone raised in Balbriggan, though actually born in Drogheda, who had a Drogs season ticket pretty much my entire life).

My curiousity centres around where the line is drawn. A Meath person can get to Drogheda handy enough, but an Irish person can get to any stadium in the UK handy enough, too. I'd go to Villa home games and it'd cost me less than my mates were spending in the pub watching the same match some weeks, and not really take all that much time out of my life travelling. Sure, it meant getting up earlier, but I'd be in Brum by the time I'd normally have woken up anyway, and I'd still be home in time for match of the day

Omackeral

Have you missed my point entirely? Parts of Drogheda are in County Meath. Some of them ARE FROM there.

Ferris_Bueller

COYVB wrote: »

Let's say I had a kid that was born in Birmingham and lived in Aston for 2 years before moving abroad. Would it be any more acceptable for that kid to be a die hard Villa fan, despite still only being able to watch on TV and, ultimately, not really having any memory or ties to the area?

I'm just trying to figure out the logic here. People can have a passion for space exploration and dedicate their lives to being ardent followers of it without going to space, for example.

What exactly is a die hard supporter of a team? Professional football teams are businesses. They're companies run to make money. Supporting any of them is completely illogical, really.

If I'm born and bred in Birmingham City, chances are there's an amateur team closer to me than Aston Villa or Birmingham City, and that team will be comprised of people actually from the area, who you'd actually have something in common with. Wouldn't the "proper die hard football fan" favour them over the professional team further away?

Why should the guy from balbriggan, by this logic, support an LOI team outside the town when there's 3 Leinster Senior League teams in it?

Where do you stop filtering it down? Where doesit suit the "proper fan" argument to call it quits on drilling further and further down? Does the "proper fan" not follow ANY team, but rather wants to watch them all?

I don't know to be honest, I've lived in the same place my entire life so I don't know how connected you would feel to an area if you lived there until you were two years old, again I would think it would be more about supporting the team from the area which represents you best.

Football teams and space exploration are different. Surely teams are formed to represent their areas, the name of the club surely ties it to that area? Fair point about where do you stop filtering it down. I like seeing any teams from my area do well (Kildare/Ireland), but I wouldn't go down to watch Newbridge Town play every week in the LSL.

For me, there is almost a community feel to supporting a team, when I'm in Lansdowne rd. I know that everyone there is together supporting Ireland because they are representing us on an international stage, likewise when I went to LoI games it was Kildare County representing my area on a national stage, and everybody there was there for that reason. Very similar to the GAA and their fans I'd imagine. I also follow Liverpool but it's not for the same reaosn, more so for something to talk about and entertainment purposes.

Omackeral

^

Excellent post. Nail on the head in every point.

COYVB

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

Surely teams are formed to represent their areas, the name of the club surely ties it to that area?

That's why they WERE formed, sure. But once the professional game came in that all changed. They're no more about representing the area than anything else. They're businesses now. And there's nothing wrong with that really. People support local business all the time

Ferris_Bueller

COYVB wrote: »

That's why they WERE formed, sure. But once the professional game came in that all changed. They're no more about representing the area than anything else. They're businesses now. And there's nothing wrong with that really. People support local business all the time

Not necessarily. Manchester United I'm sure provide lots of kids in Manchester opportunities to play football and watch world class football right on their doorstep, just because they don't have 11 lads from Manchester playing for their first team doesn't mean they don't represent the area.

Beasty

Ferris_Bueller wrote: »

Surely teams are formed to represent their areas

No they are not. I've already pointed out that Man United were formed to "represent" a railway company. Arsenal were formed by the workers at the Royal Arsenal. Notts Co, the oldest professional club, were formed to play their own version of the game, probably because there was no other club to play against. Everton was formed to allow people of the parish to play sport year round. Liverpool were formed because of a dispute within Everton. I could go on, but the clubs established in the 19th century were generally formed to provide the opportunity to play the game. Few if any would have been formed with spectators in mind, and a fan base was a consequence of rather than a reason for formation

The Golden Miller

COYVB wrote: »

But by the logic here, Meath people have no ties to Drogheda. Sure they can drive there in a short enough time, but they're not FROM there. (I say this as someone raised in Balbriggan, though actually born in Drogheda, who had a Drogs season ticket pretty much my entire life).

My curiousity centres around where the line is drawn. A Meath person can get to Drogheda handy enough, but an Irish person can get to any stadium in the UK handy enough, too. I'd go to Villa home games and it'd cost me less than my mates were spending in the pub watching the same match some weeks, and not really take all that much time out of my life travelling. Sure, it meant getting up earlier, but I'd be in Brum by the time I'd normally have woken up anyway, and I'd still be home in time for match of the day

Drogheda and Balbriggan? About 15 minutes from each other ye? Same general vicinity really ye? It isn't the same analogy as supporting a team in a different country, no matter how much your want to be. You know someones lost an argument when all they can do is go on the defensive and try to counter and obstruct people's arguments with irrelevant pedantry. If you genuinely believe going to a foreign country to support a team is the same as supporting one 15 minutes away in the same country which is just over an invisible border, then more power to you, but in saying that, I'd strongly advise you to get an education

COYVB

The Golden Miller wrote: »

It isn't the same analogy as supporting a team in a different country

What if someone from Leixlip supported Derry?

The Golden Miller wrote: »

If you genuinely believe going to a foreign country to support a team is the same as supporting one 15 minutes away in the same country which is just over an invisible border, then more power to you

It's a case of using the, somewhat strange, logic being presented here. Drogheda is 2 counties over from Balbriggan. The Drogheda team is in no way representative of Balbriggan or its people. Glebe North are a perfectly good Leinster Senior League team in the town, for example. Surely supporting an LOI club over a local club is absolutely no different to supporting an EPL club over an LOI club, using the logic being thrown around here, of course.

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I'd strongly advise you to get an education

Really any need for that?

The Golden Miller

COYVB wrote: »

What if someone from Leixlip supported Derry?



It's a case of using the, somewhat strange, logic being presented here. Drogheda is 2 counties over from Balbriggan. The Drogheda team is in no way representative of Balbriggan or its people. Glebe North are a perfectly good Leinster Senior League team in the town, for example. Surely supporting an LOI club over a local club is absolutely no different to supporting an EPL club over an LOI club, using the logic being thrown around here, of course.



Really any need for that?

It's a different country. Can you still not grasp that?

COYVB

The Golden Miller wrote: »

It's a different country. Can you still not grasp that?

So is Derry

The Golden Miller

COYVB wrote: »

So is Derry

I see Ian Paisley hasn't died. People like you truly are a disgrace. Basically imply 900,000 Irish people are British, and for what? To further some pathetic point, in which you very well know the analogy isn't the same. This is why forums have gone to sh1t. Constant pedantry on technicalities, whataboutery etc. I'd really love a coward like you to call an Irish man from Derry British, and say it to their face, or tell them they don't live in Ireland. Wouldn't have the balls. Piss off to Ballymena you clown, you'd fit right in

COYVB

Politics forum this way

Geography forum this way

Conspiracy theory forum this way

Diabhal Beag

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I see Ian Paisley hasn't died.

I could've sworn I saw something on the news about it. Must have been some Onion joke that went o'er my head.

COYVB

Another example of the failed logic in this argument. Joe lives bang smack in the middle of Dublin City. Joe's oul lad is from Cork, his ma is from Liverpool. He supports Cork City because his da's side of the family are a long line of Cork-dwellers. He gets pats on the back from LOI fans for heading to all Cork's games. "That's dedication" they say. "Fair play to you!"

He also supports Liverpool, because all this mother's side of the family are from that neck of the woods. He goes to all their home games, too, because they're on a different day to the Cork games, so he can. "Glory hunter" he gets called. "What are you like supporting foreign teams," they say, "support local football".

The irony here? As the crow flies, Anfield is closer to his house than Turners Cross. In this case, Liverpool ARE his local team (out of the two anyway)

The Golden Miller

COYVB wrote: »

Politics forum this way

Geography forum this way

Conspiracy theory forum this way

And then when pulled up on something, resort to taking some kind of smarmy condescending moral high ground. And for the record, your the one who brought up the issue of Derry being in a different country, so off with you to the politics forum. They are from Ireland (wheather it be the "UK part" or not, and play in the Irish league). So again, not the same analogy. I'm surprised you still haven't mentioned "Celtic are British". The calling card of the Irish Premiership fan who is called out on their superficial support

The Golden Miller

Diabhal Beag wrote: »

I could've sworn I saw something on the news about it. Must have been some Onion joke that went o'er my head.

You must have had one too many double vodka's man. He's posting in this forum right now

The Golden Miller

COYVB wrote: »

Another example of the failed logic in this argument. Joe lives bang smack in the middle of Dublin City. Joe's oul lad is from Cork, his ma is from Liverpool. He supports Cork City because his da's side of the family are a long line of Cork-dwellers. He gets pats on the back from LOI fans for heading to all Cork's games. "That's dedication" they say. "Fair play to you!"

He also supports Liverpool, because all this mother's side of the family are from that neck of the woods. He goes to all their home games, too, because they're on a different day to the Cork games, so he can. "Glory hunter" he gets called. "What are you like supporting foreign teams," they say, "support local football".

The irony here? As the crow flies, Anfield is closer to his house than Turners Cross. In this case, Liverpool ARE his local team (out of the two anyway)

You see Cork's Irish and play in an Irish league, Liverpool isn't, and that's the crux of the argument and the very reason it isn't the same analogy

COYVB

The Golden Miller wrote: »

And then when pulled up on something, resort to taking some kind of smarmy condescending moral high ground. And for the record, your the one who brought up the issue of Derry being in a different country, so off with you to the politics forum. They are from Ireland (wheather it be the "UK part" or not, and play in the Irish league). So again, not the same analogy. I'm surprised you still haven't mentioned "Celtic are British". The calling card of the Irish Premiership fan who is called out on their superficial support

I've got absolutely no doubt I've been to more LOI games than you, me oul mucker. The difference is I don't really care who anyone supports or why, because supporting 11 men in shorts kicking an air-filled leather ball around a pitch of grass is, in itself, a little bit silly.

The Golden Miller

COYVB wrote: »

I've got absolutely no doubt I've been to more LOI games than you, me oul mucker. The difference is I don't really care who anyone supports or why, because supporting 11 men in shorts kicking an air-filled leather ball around a pitch of grass is, in itself, a little bit silly.

I'm just pointing out it's not t he same analogy, something you can't seem to grasp. And all you've been able to produce is whataboutery, pedantry, take some condescending moral high ground, the then seemingly back down from your stance altogether and say you don't care. It seems anything but acknowledge that your analogy isn't the same, which it isn't, by the very nature of one team being from Ireland, while the other isn't

osarusan

The fortunes of my club (Limerick FC) mean so much more to me than those of the international team does, definitely.

COYVB

The Golden Miller wrote: »

I'm just pointing out it's not t he same analogy, something you can't seem to grasp. And all you've been able to produce is whataboutery, pedantry, take some condescending moral high ground, the then seemingly back down from your stance altogether and say you don't care. It seems anything but acknowledge that your analogy isn't the same, which it isn't, by the very nature of one team being from Ireland, while the other isn't

My point is what does it bloody well matter? Where do you stop drilling down was my original point. It's okay NOT to support your local team if the team you support is Irish? It's okay to support whoever the hell you want to support. If you like football, going to see live football is the best way to enjoy it. Whether you're willing to get on the ferry to go see someone in England or hop on a plane and fly to Dortmund, you're going to watch football. You can do that in Ireland if you like. You can probably do it on a Sunday morning at the pitches near your house too.

Whichever way you want to take in your football, there's no right or wrong. Just enjoy the bloody sport or don't

The Golden Miller

COYVB wrote: »

My point is what does it bloody well matter? Where do you stop drilling down was my original point. It's okay NOT to support your local team if the team you support is Irish? It's okay to support whoever the hell you want to support. If you like football, going to see live football is the best way to enjoy it. Whether you're willing to get on the ferry to go see someone in England or hop on a plane and fly to Dortmund, you're going to watch football. You can do that in Ireland if you like. You can probably do it on a Sunday morning at the pitches near your house too.

Whichever way you want to take in your football, there's no right or wrong. Just enjoy the bloody sport or don't

"What does it matter" is your point? Really? Well going by what I've read two pages ago from you, "what does it matter" is in great contrast to the points you were making then

COYVB

The Golden Miller wrote: »

"What does it matter" is your point? Really? Well going by what I've read two pages ago from you, "what does it matter" is in great contrast to the points you were making then

It's called playing devil's advocate to try to identify the logic (or lack thereof) that others are making. Mainly lack of logic TBH.

And in the past couple of pages I've been accused of superficial support, being a coward and lacking education. That was a nice touch.

And for the record, Derry don't play in the Irish league, Celtic ARE British, and Northern Ireland is another country :pac:

Now take your rage and do something productive with it

The Golden Miller

COYVB wrote: »

It's called playing devil's advocate to try to identify the logic (or lack thereof) that others are making. Mainly lack of logic TBH

So basically just ruining the thread? When you could have just easily questioned the persons logic, ye?

Although your being sarcastic, and just out of curiosity, what league do Derry play in so?

COYVB

The Golden Miller wrote: »

what league do Derry play in so?

They play in the League of Ireland, which is a different league, in a different country, to the Irish League

The Golden Miller

COYVB wrote: »

They play in the League of Ireland, which is a different league, in a different country, to the Irish League

No such league as the Irish league. It's the Northern Ireland Football League Premiership. I guess Liverpool et all, don't play in the English league, as it's not called the English league ye?

UnleashTheBeast

Club - always.

I've supported Galway United for over 15 years and special nights like last night in Tolka Park only re-affirmed my belief RE; Club. I've never experienced anything like that at an Ireland game.

Obviously I'd like to see Ireland doing well but I feel little or no affinity for the national team and that's largely down to the supporters who for the most part follow EPL Clubs over their own local Clubs which bemuses and annoys me. I could never understand that mindset and I haven't been to a National game in years as a result.

Each to their own I guess.

Will I Amnt

The Golden Miller wrote: »

And then when pulled up on something, resort to taking some kind of smarmy condescending moral high ground.

To be fair, if someone is telling you to piss off, calling you a clown and insulting your intelligence, you're well within your rights to be a bit smarmy.

extra gravy

Do the people who think one should only support clubs based in their area also only listen to music by local artists, only eat local produce, etc. or is this parochial attitude reserved solely for football? The narrow-minded shiite that's been displayed in this thread is embarrassing and has no place in modern society where football is a global game. I'm from Ireland and support an English team and I couldn't care less about the LOI or the Ireland team. But according to some, this is objectively wrong and means I'm not a proper football fan. Not everyone bases their enjoyment of sport on geography or nationalistic sentiment. The idea that you shouldn't support a particular club "because they're not from your area" is insular and absurd.

Will I Amnt

extra gravy wrote: »

Do the people who think one should only support clubs based in their area also only listen to music by local artists, only eat local produce, etc. or is this parochial attitude reserved solely for football? The narrow-minded shiite that's been displayed in this thread is embarrassing and has no place in modern society where football is a global game. I'm from Ireland and support an English team and I couldn't care less about the LOI or the Ireland team. But according to some, this is objectively wrong and means I'm not a proper football fan. Not everyone bases their enjoyment of sport on geography or nationalistic sentiment. The idea that you shouldn't support a particular club "because they're not from your area" is insular and absurd.

Everything has to be black and white with the militant anti-PL brigade.

There's been plenty of examples, hypothetical situations and analogies thrown up here that are just getting shot down because "it's in a different country"

A man goes to Tolka Park every other week with his mates, win/lose/draw it doesn't affect him too much, the most important thing is the few pints afterwards with the lads.

Still a better fan than those bloody glory hunters...

UnleashTheBeast

extra gravy wrote: »

Do the people who think one should only support clubs based in their area also only listen to music by local artists, only eat local produce, etc. or is this parochial attitude reserved solely for football? The narrow-minded shiite that's been displayed in this thread is embarrassing and has no place in modern society where football is a global game. I'm from Ireland and support an English team and I couldn't care less about the LOI or the Ireland team. But according to some, this is objectively wrong and means I'm not a proper football fan. Not everyone bases their enjoyment of sport on geography or nationalistic sentiment. The idea that you shouldn't support a particular club "because they're not from your area" is insular and absurd.

I supportered Man Utd as a youngster but grew out of it, I watch football from all over the globe and have interests in many Leagues but the only team I am truly interested in is Galway United. For me, there is something special about supporting my local club, it's hard to explain to somebody like you (or someone that has your interests/views), you may consider it insular and parochial but that's your prerogative as I've already stated (each to their own). I don't like the slanted view you're painting of LOI fans though, not agreeing with your view doesn't equal considering a subject "objectively wrong". That's hyberbole.

UnleashTheBeast

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Everything has to be black and white with the militant anti-PL brigade.

There's been plenty of examples, hypothetical situations and analogies thrown up here that are just getting shot down because "it's in a different country"

A man goes to Tolka Park every other week with his mates, win/lose/draw it doesn't affect him too much, the most important thing is the few pints afterwards with the lads.

Still a better fan than those bloody glory hunters...

That's some fine generalising you're doing there...

I think you'll find that a lot of LOI fans support PL teams, which makes that post look fairly silly.

I'm genuinely unsure as to what point you're trying to make with the bolded text?

Will I Amnt

UnleashTheBeast wrote: »

That's some fine generalising you're doing there...

I think you'll find that a lot of LOI fans support PL teams, which makes that post look fairly silly.

I'm genuinely unsure as to what point you're trying to make with the bolded text?

Generalising how?

UnleashTheBeast

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Generalising how?

"Everything has to be black and white with the militant anti-PL brigade."

Silly sweeping statement to suit your argument. Also, could you please explain the point you're trying to make in your last post (text in bold)?

Will I Amnt

UnleashTheBeast wrote: »

"Everything has to be black and white with the militant anti-PL brigade."

Silly sweeping statement to suit your argument. Also, could you please explain the point you're trying to make in your last post (text in bold)?

The fact that I said 'militant' surely cuts the generalisation out of it? That was the idea anyway I would have just said LOI fans if I was generalising.

The bolder part is just another hypothetical situation for someone to come along and try and defend if they so wish.

CSF

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Everything has to be black and white with the militant anti-PL brigade.

There's been plenty of examples, hypothetical situations and analogies thrown up here that are just getting shot down because "it's in a different country"

A man goes to Tolka Park every other week with his mates, win/lose/draw it doesn't affect him too much, the most important thing is the few pints afterwards with the lads.

Still a better fan than those bloody glory hunters...

To be fair, the hypothetical situations and analogies have been merely tedious and proved nothing other than that sometimes people can have legitimate geographical links with more than 1 place. Which I and most people agree with.

Which has nothing to do with some random lad from Dublin supporting Liverpool or Man United.

Omackeral

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Everything has to be black and white with the militant anti-PL brigade.

There's been plenty of examples, hypothetical situations and analogies thrown up here that are just getting shot down because "it's in a different country"

A man goes to Tolka Park every other week with his mates, win/lose/draw it doesn't affect him too much, the most important thing is the few pints afterwards with the lads.

Still a better fan than those bloody glory hunters...

I've been to 95% of home games this season. Been in the bar once for pints with the lads. Once. So yeah it's nowhere near the most important thing at all. It's not a day trip, it doesn't require a 'session'. It's just going to the match every other week.

Will I Amnt

Omackeral wrote: »

I've been to 95% of home games this season. Been in the bar once for pints with the lads. Once. So yeah it's nowhere near the most important thing at all. It's not a day trip, it doesn't require a 'session'. It's just going to the match every other week.

I wasn't implying you or anybody here behaves like that but there are people that will tell you that because he goes to his local team's games, the fictional man in that hypothetical situation is a far greater fan than the Irish PL fan regardless of his interest in the actual football.

Some people are just completely blinded by their disdain for PL support that they won't give an inch no matter what the situation.

WesternZulu

I can't help but feel that United winning the champions league would mean more to someone actually from Manchester than their fans scattered around the globe...that a club that shares the same city as themselves are amongst the elite in the world must be a source of pride that other fans simply cannot feel.

Beasty

WesternZulu wrote: »

I can't help but feel that United winning the champions league would mean more to someone actually from Manchester than their fans scattered around the globe...that a club that shares the same city as themselves are amongst the elite in the world must be a source of pride that other fans simply cannot feel.

I was living and working in Manchester in 1999 and can assure you it meant more to me than 95+% of those in who were born and brought up in the area. Like everywhere there is a "core" of real fanatics, but most people take a passing interest which is elevated whenever there is success at the club.

COYVB

WesternZulu wrote: »

I can't help but feel that United winning the champions league would mean more to someone actually from Manchester

I don't see what city fans have to do with anything

CSF

Beasty wrote: »

I was living and working in Manchester in 1999 and can assure you it meant more to me than 95+% of those in who were born and brought up in the area. Like everywhere there is a "core" of real fanatics, but most people take a passing interest which is elevated whenever there is success at the club.

Man United are almost an exception though, in that having also worked there, I can vouch that City are very much the Manchester club and those local United fans I worked with resent the fact that their club has been usurped by non-locals and ticket prices hiked up as a result.

Beasty

Having spent over 25 years there I can confirm the notion there are more City than United fans in Manchester is a complete myth. It's basically a notion often perpetuated by some City fans. Yes United are now based in Salford but it is absolutely clear to me that United have had a stronger fan base within the city and indeed Greater Manchester area throughout the times I've frequented the club

CSF

Beasty wrote: »

Having spent over 25 years there I can confirm the notion there are more City than United fans in Manchester is a complete myth. It's basically a notion often perpetuated by some City fans. Yes United are now based in Salford but it is absolutely clear to me that United have had a stronger fan base within the city and indeed Greater Manchester area throughout the times I've frequented the club

Can't speak for Greater Manchester but in terms of the City I've experienced those common observations to be very much true.

miroslavklose

CSF wrote: »

Can't speak for Greater Manchester but in terms of the City I've experienced those common observations to be very much true.

Funny thing is I know a bloke who grew up in Manchester in the 50s, and his family had two season tickets - one for United and one for City, as they played alternating weeks. They supported Manchester teams regardless, and it was a pretty normal thing for the city. They supported their locality.

CSF

miroslavklose wrote: »

Funny thing is I know a bloke who grew up in Manchester in the 50s, and his family had two season tickets - one for United and one for City, as they played alternating weeks. They supported Manchester teams regardless, and it was a pretty normal thing for the city. They supported their locality.

Nice enough sentiment, couldn't do it myself though.