More Crap on Adams, Mod Warning in OP.

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

You think we should just go "ah sure we know we had IRA kangaroo courts into sexual abuse, nothing to see here, move on". That's like a scene out of police squad or Naked Gun!

Do you say that about all historic sexual abuse cases? Should all victims just move on or just ones that got paraded in front of IRA "courts".



Well, I don't have to twist anything. I'd suggest taking a moment and pondering how you come across. It seems the cause over rides any concern over sexual abuse cases.

There should be a full investigation into how SF/IRA handled sexual abuse cases in the past. Nothing less would be expected if this was the church or any other political party.

Godge wrote: »

This is the absolute key point.

Nothing less was done when it was the church and we had it all exposed.

And you know and I know and Enda knows that a full 'investigation' into the activities of the IRA (including kangaroo courts and what they did about community policing) will not happen, unless it is part of a full truth and reconciliation process. Is Enda going to call for that or put the proper pressure on the British and Unionists to take part? No he isn't. Everyone has questions for SF and the IRA but none for the other active and willing participants in the conflict.

Enda now says, 'SF need to provide information', how about Maria Cahill providing some tangible, verifiable information over and above unsubstantiated, in any way, allegations?

maccored

wasnt there plenty of time over the past few decades to raise that issue? why now? and why are SF being accused? did they run the IRA?

Facilitated escape? Mind explaining that one for me?

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

That revelation is not surprising. However it will be news to most people that SF/IRA investigated internal sexual abuse allegations and covered them up when senior IRA members were implicated. Also just to make matters worse, they facilitated the escape of those accused from Northern Ireland. Horrifying to think that despite what SF/IRA know these people - sexual abusers - might still be active in the community. A scandal of the highest proportions.

The Irish and British governments should intervene immediately to ensure that a service is setup to which those who experienced sexual abuse at the hands of members of paramilitary organisations, and were then forced to undergo hidden and secretive unjust investigations, are given the support that they need.

maccored

Indeed, as per SF have been calling for a truth commission for years to deal with all aspects of the conflict.

Indeed.

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed, as per the SF and Mary Lou statement about the Catholic Church in 09:



Indeed.

maccored

that seems to be the norm alright.

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Yeah, "these are sexual abuse cases" therefore Adams is guilty of anything I can magic up with zero factual evidence, because, ya know, it's a serious crime.
So stop using logic and asking for facts and just say you agree with me already.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

And you know and I know and Enda knows that a full 'investigation' into the activities of the IRA (including kangaroo courts and what they did about community policing) will not happen, unless it is part of a full truth and reconciliation process. Is Enda going to call for that or put the proper pressure on the British and Unionists to take part? No he isn't. Everyone has questions for SF and the IRA but none for the other active and willing participants in the conflict.

The same old whataboutery. We won't own up to what we did until everybody else does. We can't wait for that. Gerry Adams has said the IRA let sex abusers go. Where are they now?

Happyman42 wrote: »

Enda now says, 'SF need to provide information', how about Maria Cahill providing some tangible, verifiable information over and above unsubstantiated, in any way, allegations?

It is not just Mairia Cahill. There is a second victim interviewed today. Gerry Adams has admitted there were IRA kangaroo courts that investigate sexual abuse by IRA members (but not Mairia Cahill's case) and that the perpetrators they let go are wandering the country drinking pints in Donegal and abusing children everywhere for all we know. The last bit about what they are doing is my speculation but what else would they be doing.

Of course nobody has told Pearse Doherty any of this yet.

Godge

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

That revelation is not surprising. However it will be news to most people that SF/IRA investigated internal sexual abuse allegations and covered them up when senior IRA members were implicated. Also just to make matters worse, they facilitated the escape of those accused from Northern Ireland. Horrifying to think that despite what SF/IRA know these people - sexual abusers - might still be active in the community. A scandal of the highest proportions.

The Irish and British governments should intervene immediately to ensure that a service is setup to which those who experienced sexual abuse at the hands of members of paramilitary organisations, and were then forced to undergo hidden and secretive unjust investigations, are given the support that they need.

Not just active in the community but SF/IRA may have facilitated these people abusing again. Think of Liam Adams and the various community jobs he got in SF-dominated localities. How many are out there?

For Reals

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

*edited by For Reals*
That revelation is not surprising. However it will be news to most people that SF/IRA the Catholic Church investigated internal sexual abuse allegations and covered them up when senior IRA Church members were implicated. Also just to make matters worse, they facilitated the escape of those accused from Northern Ireland. Horrifying to think that despite what SF/IRA the Catholic Church know these people - sexual abusers - might still be active in the community. A scandal of the highest proportions.

Just pointing out
We must stop Pope Francis now!!!!
Despot Kenny is loving the distraction.

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

The Irish and British governments should intervene immediately to ensure that a service is setup to which those who experienced sexual abuse at the hands of members of paramilitary organisations, and were then forced to undergo hidden and secretive unjust investigations, are given the support that they need.

Agreed, but they may seeing as it's investigating the 'RA and not themselves.

K-9

maccored wrote: »

wasnt there plenty of time over the past few decades to raise that issue? why now? and why are SF being accused? did they run the IRA?

Facilitated escape? Mind explaining that one for me?

As we get constantly reminded, and rightly so, N.I. was a broken society. Normal justice wasn't functioning for various reasons.

Many people who were paraded in front of IRA kangaroo courts were in fear of speaking out. We know that contrary to some IRA justice utopia some would have us believe, the IRA had rogue and extremely violent types, the McCartney case a perfect example.

seamus

K-9 wrote: »

You think we should just go "ah sure we know we had IRA kangaroo courts into sexual abuse, nothing to see here, move on". That's like a scene out of police squad or Naked Gun!

Do you say that about all historic sexual abuse cases? Should all victims just move on or just ones that got paraded in front of IRA "courts".

Indeed. It came out that the Catholic Church did exactly the same thing - held kangaroo courts where victims were intimidated and harrassed and made to feel like they were the criminals, after which their abusers were allowed go free and the abuses covered up. And people were foaming at the mouth about it, especially when it transpired that current church leaders had been involved in that cover-up.

This is relevant to Sinn Fein now because it appears that Adams (who is the leader of Sinn Fein, let's remember) may be implicated in this kind of behaviour.

It's funny to see people hopping about "allegations" and "prove it", when we already have the below key pieces of evidence:

1. The IRA carried out these Kangaroo courts - Adams confirmed this
2. By inference, Adams and SF knew this was happening
3. Again, by inference, Adams and SF allowed this to happen

So at this stage it's kind of irrelevant what evidence needs to be presented. Adams and the senior SF leadership needs to explain why they allowed these kangaroo courts to take place and why they allowed victims of abuse to be subject to this injustice.

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

The same old whataboutery.[?QUOTE]
I could have sworn it was you going on about what happened with the Catholic Church? :rolleyes:

We won't own up to what we did until everybody else does.

Why does that suprise you?
It has been said often enough and it won't happen until everybody is at the table.



We can't wait for that. Gerry Adams has said the IRA let sex abusers go. Where are they now?

It is not just Mairia Cahill. There is a second victim interviewed today. .

Not a scintilla of back-up or verification behind that story either and interestingly not picked up by the other paper of record The Irish Times yet afaics. Always a clear indication that the Independent is making stuff up again.

K-9

It also seems paedophiles and abusers were told to go to England or down South. The parallels between the godfathers of the IRA and the Catholic Church are striking.

Dan_Solo

K-9 wrote: »

It also seems paedophiles and abusers were told to go to England or down South. The parallels between the godfathers of the IRA and the Catholic Church are striking.

"Seems"? Well that's enough proof for me! Hang 'em high!

Barely There

Poor Gerry's had his arse handed to him in the Dail this afternoon - he's in for many more grillings on this issue I reckon. His lick-spittle buddies beside him looked like they wanted the ground to open up and swallow them.

An opinion poll is currently being carried out with results to be presented in this weekend's newspapers. Will be interesting to see what damage the Shinners will have suffered.

Hopefully not enough to make them consider ditching the 'dear leader' - it's very important for civilised society that he be allowed to continue his fantastic work in ensuring SF remain forever unelectable.

Timberrrrrrrr

from her meeting today

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ma%C3%ADria-cahill-meets-compassionate-taoiseach-1.1972617

Speaking after their one-and-a-half-hour meeting, she reiterated her claim that she had discussed with Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams at a meeting her allegation that she was raped by an IRA member.
“I met him from 2000 right through to 2006. I mean, we weren’t discussing his teddybears, he knows exactly what we were discussing,” she added.

She said she told Mr Kenny perpetrators of child sexual abuse had been relocated to the Republic from Northern Ireland.

Ms Cahill told reporters she replied she would meet Ms McDonald when she was “prepared to say I’m telling the truth”.

maccored

What are you talking about? Were you watching a different Dail debate than I as?

Barely There wrote: »

Poor Gerry's had his arse handed to him in the Dail this afternoon - he's in for many more grillings on this issue I reckon. His lick-spittle buddies beside him looked like they wanted the ground to open up and swallow them.

K-9

Dan_Solo wrote: »

"Seems"? Well that's enough proof for me! Hang 'em high!

Thanks for the correction, we know they did. Have you not followed this story at all?

maccored

I think that last quote does Maria more harm than good. You dont meet to discuss issues with people on the prerequisite that they agree with you beforehand. lets not forget, no-one disputes the woman was abused and raped - so thats not what she is referrring to.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

from her meeting today

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ma%C3%ADria-cahill-meets-compassionate-taoiseach-1.1972617

Barely There

maccored wrote: »

What are you talking about? Were you watching a different Dail debate than I as?

No, but I wasn't wearing my Shinnerbot sunglasses which may explain some differences in perception..

Donnielighto

Dan_Solo wrote: »

"Seems"? Well that's enough proof for me! Hang 'em high!

What line would you like the authorities to take with the investigation? If the SF leadership don't request the IRA to release information they have on incidences then what?

The allegation of sexual abuse should not be easily dismissed imo. Also there is the reality that within communities it would/could have been dealt with internally due to possible/expected reaction from the community to involving the RUC at the time.

Kermit.de.frog

If this was any other party the leader would be LONG gone by now.

Disgraceful.

K-9

Adams never answered the Taoiseachs question:

http://www.highlandradio.com/2014/10/22/taoiseach-accuses-ira-of-moving-ni-sex-offenders-into-safe-houses-in-donegal/

Happyman42

Donnielighto wrote: »

What line would you like the authorities to take with the investigation? If the SF leadership don't request the IRA to release information they have on incidences then what?

How about arresting the people alleged to have done it, take them to court and with the help of the victim's evidence, get a conviction?
That's the easy and only way to get a fair and just outcome.

Donnielighto

Oh and for anyone thinking about these cases, there is the alleged options given to the two brothers who were abused when their uncle(?) was found guilty by the SF/IRA (organised by a local SF rep, presided over by IRA) court.

The guy would be shot, they would get a chance to do what they want with him or he would be exiled.

In this case they were giving the option of violence up to an including murder or relocation where he could do it again, a terrible choice to give someone. In cases like that there should have handed him over to the police.

Donnielighto

Happyman42 wrote: »

How about arresting the people alleged to have done it, take them to court and with the help of the victim's evidence, get a conviction?
That's the easy and only way to get a fair and just outcome.

Because it is a hard thing to get evidence in a case of this nature. Investigations of child abuse should be allowed to be carried out, what about letting a former member comb the records if there are any for information on the matter? I'm not really bothered by the politics of the issue, I dont think there are politics at the core of it, this is a justice issue. EK shouldnt gain but equally Cahill should have some closure.

Happyman42

Donnielighto wrote: »

Because it is a hard thing to get evidence in a case of this nature. Investigations of child abuse should be allowed to be carried out, what about letting a former member comb the records if there are any for information on the matter? I'm not really bothered by the politics of the issue, I dont think there are politics at the core of it, this is a justice issue. EK shouldnt gain but equally Cahill should have some closure.

You are aware that the alleged perpetrator and the men who allegedly carried out the interrogation where before the courts?

Donnielighto

maccored wrote: »

What are you talking about? Were you watching a different Dail debate than I as?

Hey not dealing with what you posted but could you write the comment after the quote, it helps with flow as currently the response is read before context is given. Leads to some being re read

Donnielighto

Happyman42 wrote: »

You are aware that the alleged perpetrator and the men who allegedly carried out the interrogation where before the courts?

You responded to a post where I asked about records on the matter being released to the case, as far as I know they weren't.

Them being before the courts without full evidence is pretty much the scenario I was responding to in the last post

Donnielighto

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

If this was any other party the leader would be LONG gone by now.

Disgraceful.

The problem is it is nearly (all?) rumours and the like. Of course the nature of the north at the time is that much of the justice system in nationalist areas and regarding nationalists would have been carried out by non governmental bodies within those communities. As such things dont have an official record to prove either way. It means that one side can claim "wheres the proof" while the other can claim "Cover up" and this leads us to plausible deniability where acts occurred and smears where they didnt as needed.

Timberrrrrrrr

Donnielighto wrote: »

The problem is it is nearly (all?) rumours and the like. Of course the nature of the north at the time is that much of the justice system in nationalist areas and regarding nationalists would have been carried out by non governmental bodies within those communities. As such things dont have an official record to prove either way. It means that one side can claim "wheres the proof" while the other can claim "Cover up" and this leads us to plausible deniability where acts occurred and smears where they didnt as needed.

Do you believe that Maíria Cahill has lied about being raped and that Gerry Adams talked to her about it?

Happyman42

Donnielighto wrote: »

You responded to a post where I asked about records on the matter being released to the case, as far as I know they weren't.

Them being before the courts without full evidence is pretty much the scenario I was responding to in the last post

What evidence pertinent to a rape would the IRA have?

Regarding the alleged interrogation, the IRA are quite clear that they won't be releasing any information about their activity unless it is part of a full truth and reconciliation process. Enda and Michael and the rest know this, are they calling for that process to begin? like you know, something that actually might help everybody who was a victim of the conflict to get closure? No they aren't, they are just politicising this girls ordeal to inflict some cheap political damage.
At the very least their advice to this girl should be, 'get back into a court and help convict the man who raped you, and we will assist you in every way we can to do that'.

oscarBravo

Happyman42 wrote: »

Regarding the alleged interrogation, the IRA are quite clear that they won't be releasing any information about their activity unless it is part of a full truth and reconciliation process.

And, of course, we all trust that the same honourable group of people who facilitated the transfer of child abusers out of the jurisdiction would be completely honest and forthcoming in such a process.

Does anyone not wearing green-tinted glasses truly believe this to be the case? Hell, does anyone at all truly believe it?

marienbad

Happyman42 wrote: »

How about arresting the people alleged to have done it, take them to court and with the help of the victim's evidence, get a conviction?
That's the easy and only way to get a fair and just outcome.

So why not use that option in the first place ?

Barely There

Happyman42 wrote: »

.
At the very least their advice to this girl should be, 'get back into a court and help convict the man who raped you, and we will assist you in every way we can to do that'.

We've moved on from this - You need to keep up.

Now we'd like answers to how many rapists and child molesters Gerry and friends relocated down to this jurisdiction and their whereabouts now.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

How about arresting the people alleged to have done it, take them to court and with the help of the victim's evidence, get a conviction?
That's the easy and only way to get a fair and just outcome.

So SF/IRA who covered up the allegation in the first place, and who gathered information as part of their "investigations" don't have to release records, don't have to provide witnesses, don't have to tell which safe houses they sent the abusers to?

This is getting worse.

whippet

For a man that is adamant he was never in the IRA; he seemed to be involved in a lot of what they were doing. I'm surprised at how a secretive organisation like the IRA allowed non-member play such active roles. Or maybe Gerry might not be telling us everything.

Donnielighto

Happyman42 wrote: »

What evidence pertinent to a rape would the IRA have?

Regarding the alleged interrogation, the IRA are quite clear that they won't be releasing any information about their activity unless it is part of a full truth and reconciliation process. Enda and Michael and the rest know this, are they calling for that process to begin? like you know, something that actually might help everybody who was a victim of the conflict to get closure? No they aren't, they are just politicising this girls ordeal to inflict some cheap political damage.
At the very least their advice to this girl should be, 'get back into a court and help convict the man who raped you, and we will assist you in every way we can to do that'.

Child abuse has zero to do republican goals and should not be used as a shield to protect them. How was Mairia Cahill a victim of the conflict, the IRA hardly sanctioned what she is alleging in fairness. Hold onto the info regarding the armed stuff if needs be but this cant be defended with that argument, can it?

The last bit I do agree with and is what I was asking for.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

What evidence pertinent to a rape would the IRA have?

Regarding the alleged interrogation, the IRA are quite clear that they won't be releasing any information about their activity unless it is part of a full truth and reconciliation process. Enda and Michael and the rest know this, are they calling for that process to begin? like you know, something that actually might help everybody who was a victim of the conflict to get closure? No they aren't, they are just politicising this girls ordeal to inflict some cheap political damage.
At the very least their advice to this girl should be, 'get back into a court and help convict the man who raped you, and we will assist you in every way we can to do that'.

Let us make this clear. By insisting that they will only release information in the context of a full truth and reconciliation process, the SF/IRA are co-operating in a process to ensure that sex abusers are let go free.

Donnielighto

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Do you believe that Maíria Cahill has lied about being raped and that Gerry Adams talked to her about it?

Did I say I do? However there isn't evidence of it and SF are closing ranks. Think you missed the whole point of my post, there are two sides and one side demonising the other isn't going to get them to cooperate at all.

Donnielighto

marienbad wrote: »

So why not use that option in the first place ?

Anything that happened after 1997 should have gone this way, would have been some justification for kangaroo courts before that but not after. Mind you child abuse should have been dealt with in regular court anyway.

sallymomo

Happyman42 wrote: »

And you know and I know and Enda knows that a full 'investigation' into the activities of the IRA (including kangaroo courts and what they did about community policing) will not happen, unless it is part of a full truth and reconciliation process. Is Enda going to call for that or put the proper pressure on the British and Unionists to take part? No he isn't. Everyone has questions for SF and the IRA but none for the other active and willing participants in the conflict.

Enda now says, 'SF need to provide information', how about Maria Cahill providing some tangible, verifiable information over and above unsubstantiated, in any way, allegations?

I don't see the relevance, bringing the British & the Unionists into a thread that is dealing with Gerry Adams, the IRA, Mairia Cahill and sex abuse?
The thread is titled "more crap on Adams" but as time is passing the message from SF HQ is gradually changing...rather than doing the usual SF deflection, how about you follow this saga impartially and see how it plays out? You might find that the great and glorious within Sinn Fein are indeed quite the opposite.

Happyman42

oscarBravo wrote: »

And, of course, we all trust that the same honourable group of people who facilitated the transfer of child abusers out of the jurisdiction would be completely honest and forthcoming in such a process.

Does anyone not wearing green-tinted glasses truly believe this to be the case? Hell, does anyone at all truly believe it?

Well the perception is often put around about 'the disappeared' that the IRA where stalling on giving info. But that flies in the face of the fact that the ICLVR made a statement that said;

Geoff Knupfer wrote:

"in a spirit of cooperation and reconciliation they are trying to help in every way they can."
"I am absolutely convinced that they are doing everything they can to assist. The support we have had from them has been absolutely 100% from day one."

To me, that indicates that they would co-operate in a T&R process. It is they and SF who are most strident in calling for one after all.

The Irish and British government should call their bluff on it and take part themselves.
The truth isn't gonna come out any other way, unless you can think of a realistic way it will?

Donnielighto

This isn't a political football, it is childern's lives that were affected, it shouldn't be treated as some point scoring exercise, those using it as such and those shouting down the abused to maintain face are both in the wrong.

Donnielighto

Happyman42 wrote: »

Well the perception is often put around about 'the disappeared' that the IRA where stalling on giving info. But that flies in the face of the fact that the ICLVR made a statement that said;

To me, that indicates that they would co-operate in a T&R process. It is they and SF who are most strident in calling for one after all.

The Irish and British government should call their bluff on it and take part themselves.
The truth isn't gonna come out any other way, unless you can think of a realistic way it will?

I'd imagine it is the UK that wouldn't like to be involved in that.

Viper_JB

Donnielighto wrote: »

This isn't a political football, it is childern's lives that were affected, it shouldn't be treated as some point scoring exercise, those using it as such and those shouting down the abused to maintain face are both in the wrong.

It is to some, Enda wouldn't give two craps if it didn't have the opportunity to score some political points over SF (he's never gotten this involved in any alleged sexual abuse case in the past) and it's a good distraction from all the IW stuff that's going on at the moment. But some very strong FG supporters/canvassers on here, would be wondering how much they're making per post.

sallymomo

When a person becomes a member/sympathiser of Sinn Fein, do they automatically get a "deflection pack"?
And what else does it contain apart from
1) Green tinted glasses
2) It wasn't us wristbands..

sallymomo

Viper_JB wrote: »

It is to some, Enda wouldn't give two craps if it didn't have the opportunity to score some political points over SF (he's never gotten this involved in any alleged sexual abuse case in the past) and it's a good distraction from all the IW stuff that's going on at the moment. But some very strong FG supporters/canvassers on here, would be wondering how much they're making per post.

I can't stand Inda, but wasn't he the one (political scoring or not) that called out the Catholic Church a couple of years ago?

Creative Juices

I voted SF in the recent local elections. Not #1 but it was still the first time I ever put them down as a preference. I was glad I did. I really like Mary Lou and Pearse as people as politicians.
However I will not vote for a SF candidate in the next GE if Adams is still in charge. Why? I just don't trust him and I never will. Wrong or right, that wont change. I doubt I am alone. I expect SF to do very well but I do think they have the potential to be great.

Happyman42

Joe Duffy can't get anybody to rant, only people who are pointing out the political hypocrisy of Michael and Enda.

I can see this poor girl left high and dry with her attacker still free. Very sad that nobody advised her this was the wrong way to go.

Donnielighto

Viper_JB wrote: »

It is to some, Enda wouldn't give two craps if it didn't have the opportunity to score some political points over SF (he's never gotten this involved in any alleged sexual abuse case in the past) and it's a good distraction from all the IW stuff that's going on at the moment. But some very strong FG supporters/canvassers on here, would be wondering how much they're making per post.

That's some leap.

And my post was about removing the political bias from the discussion, then you go ahead and have a post that only deals with slagging one particular party... Really?

Happyman42

Donnielighto wrote: »

I'd imagine it is the UK that wouldn't like to be involved in that.

Your imagination is sound, they have resisted all the way.