More Crap on Adams, Mod Warning in OP.

Creative Juices

Happyman42 wrote: »

I am not a member of SF but I don't see any shred of evidence of that tbh. SF, like republicans in general, would be well used to this cyclical round of allegation, designed for one purpose, by sections of the media and political opponents, out of ideas on how to legitimately counter their rise in support.
It would tend to harden support more than take it away.
If it wasn't GA it would be something else. GA will leave the stage at some point and then we will be getting the sensationalist exposés on Mary Lou or Pearse or whoever succeeds him.

I think you are wrong. There is no way Mary Lou or Pearse would be so divisive or untrustworthy.

Happyman42

Creative Juices wrote: »

I think you are wrong. There is no way Mary Lou or Pearse would be so divisive or untrustworthy.

The leader has never been the problem...it's the party that must be stopped. Hence the cyclical allegations...I predict the next round will be in the run up to the GE.

the_syco

Happyman42 wrote: »

Would it be that 'most people' in NI don't see them that way and that a growing number in Southern Ireland are seeing it too?

I find NI SF and RoI SF two different parties, with very different policies. NI SF actually does a good job, but RoI SF seem to go for the populist vote.

Creative Juices wrote: »

Sinn Fein know this now, the issue is how long it will take them to sort it.

He's the team mascot. Removing him will remove votes if done incorrectly. I think he needs to find himself a replacement, and officially retire. Also he can't use the replacement as a puppet, or the blowback could be extreme if found out.

Creative Juices wrote: »

I think you are wrong. There is no way Mary Lou or Pearse would be so divisive or untrustworthy.

IMO, they're both fairly new, and as such don't have such a collection of skeletons as of yet, but it's be naive to say that they had none.

Creative Juices

the_syco wrote: »

IMO, they're both fairly new, and as such don't have such a collection of skeletons as of yet, but it's be naive to say that they had none.

They might have skeletons must nothing in comparison to Adams.

I think SF would gain way more votes if Adams stepped down than the number of votes they would lose. Existing SF voters would be very loyal. It's the new voters they need to worry about to have any hope of power.

Happyman42

Creative Juices wrote: »

They might have skeletons must nothing in comparison to Adams.

I think SF would gain way more votes if Adams stepped down than the number of votes they would lose. Existing SF voters would be very loyal. It's the new voters they need to worry about to have any hope of power.

You have just demonstrated the power and danger of these 'cyclical allegations'.

Could you point to 'actual proven skeletons', not alleged ones, that have been found in Gerry's cupboard?
Mud obviously sticks for some people.

ThisRegard

Happyman42 wrote: »

The leader has never been the problem...it's the party that must be stopped. Hence the cyclical allegations...I predict the next round will be in the run up to the GE.

He's a massive problem for some people. He's an ongoing joke with his continuous denials in their eyes and as a result the party suffers.

bobbysands81

Trent Clever Ugliness wrote: »

You're not serious.. Are you?
What revolution? It was a terrorist campaign and nothing else.

The "terrorist campaign" was waged on, not by, the minority grouping in the 6 counties.

The fact that they had the temerity to fight this discrimination, oppression and right to self determination seems an issue in this country whilst the aggressor who is responsible for the discrimination and oppression are given a "free pass" whilst we pat ourselves on the back and say "Sure aren't we a great little nation, look how mature we are and how we'll all moved on and we're great friends now and we've put this silly conflict behind us".

We'll only have truly moved on and put this conflict behind us, and matured as a Nation, when we can speak openly and honestly about why this conflict happened, why people needed to stand up for their communities and why "democracy" was closed off to the minority leaving a vacuum filled with violence.

Creative Juices

Happyman42 wrote: »

You have just demonstrated the power and danger of these 'cyclical allegations'.

Could you point to 'actual proven skeletons', not alleged ones, that have been found in Gerry's cupboard?
Mud obviously sticks for some people.

Look call it whatever you like, my misplaced perception, my brainwashing by the media whatever...the fact is I don't trust him and I never will. And there are many like me.
SF need to deal with that one way or the other.

On the other hand I do really like Mary Lou, I think she is a fantastic politician. I also believe her role and her party's growth is stunted by having Adams as leader.

maccored

Denying gossip. Oh what a terrible man he is.

ThisRegard wrote: »

He's a massive problem for some people. He's an ongoing joke with his continuous denials in their eyes and as a result the party suffers.

duckcfc

Phoebas wrote: »

These guys weren't our revolutionary leaders; they were terrorists. And the Irish people consistently rejected them and their political wing all the time they were active.

Of course they were. You people have very short memories. Think back to the way they where treated by an orange state and British. IMI they where and still are revolutionary leaders in the same mould as Michael Collins, che Guevara, Fidel Castro etc... Without Adams and the IRA the Irish across the border would be still getting a bad raw deal. There was no other route to go other than take up arms and fight for basic human rights so IMO, of course they where revolutionary leaders

I'd like to know what you and others think a revolutionary leader is.

Happyman42

ThisRegard wrote: »

He's a massive problem for some people. He's an ongoing joke with his continuous denials in their eyes and as a result the party suffers.

The party is the real 'problem', lets not kid ourselves. If it wasn't allegations about GA it would be something else.
Some people can be bought and influenced by the media, that is why powerful people buy newspapers and TV stations.

maccored

Creative Juices wrote: »

SF need to deal with that one way or the other.

No. To be frank its the people who distrust a party based on hearsay that need to deal with it. It is, after all, their belief in the political bull**** that's been fed to them thats the issue.

golfball37

I've no problem with IRA kangaroo courts back in the day as that was how justice was meted out in an area living through a war with no police force. If we are to take them to task for looking after their own when it comes to a serious crime like rape then we'd have stories daily about the Gardaí & Political classes in Eire doing the same.
The real issue here is whether Adams is lying about this case.

josip

It is not "crap" about Adams.
The IRA murdered unarmed Gardai protecting the citizens of this country.
For some children Daddy never came home from work.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

The party is the real 'problem', lets not kid ourselves. If it wasn't allegations about GA it would be something else.
Some people can be bought and influenced by the media, that is why powerful people buy newspapers and TV stations.

If SF/IRA were to deal properly with the allegations, they might go away.

For example, where are all the sexual offenders and paedophiles that were expelled from Northern Ireland by the IRA kangaroo courts? And who are they?

Were they just moved on like the Catholic Church moved along priests?

maccored

golfball37 wrote: »

The real issue here is whether Adams is lying about this case.

I agree - though it would also help to have a clear definition of what he's meant to be lying/not lying about. One claim is that SF did not assist the police in maria cahils case. apparently that is untrue, though as I say, a bit more definition on what he is meant to be lying about would be handy. I dont hear that in the media ... I just hear people being amazed that republicans couldnt go to the ruc at the time. terrible people dont even know the more recent history of what went on.

Godge

golfball37 wrote: »

I've no problem with IRA kangaroo courts back in the day as that was how justice was meted out in an area living through a war with no police force. If we are to take them to task for looking after their own when it comes to a serious crime like rape then we'd have stories daily about the Gardaí & Political classes in Eire doing the same.
The real issue here is whether Adams is lying about this case.

Are you suggesting that the Gardai and the political classes down south look after their own when it comes to a serious crime like rape?

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

If SF/IRA were to deal properly with the allegations, they might go away.

For example, where are all the sexual offenders and paedophiles that were expelled from Northern Ireland by the IRA kangaroo courts? And who are they?

Were they just moved on like the Catholic Church moved along priests?

Did you read GA's statement or just cherrypick the bits that 'appall' you?
He deals with all of that fairly comprehensively.
Nobody should be dealing with this stuff in the media. What is required is that people who have issues or complaints bring them to the proper authorities and have them forensically and properly examined.

gallag

duckcfc wrote: »

Of course they were. You people have very short memories. Think back to the way they where treated by an orange state and British. IMI they where and still are revolutionary leaders in the same mould as Michael Collins, che Guevara, Fidel Castro etc... Without Adams and the IRA the Irish across the border would be still getting a bad raw deal. There was no other route to go other than take up arms and fight for basic human rights so IMO, of course they where revolutionary leaders

I'd like to know what you and others think a revolutionary leader is.

yet the IRA/SF Killed more catholics/nationalists than the UVF, UDA or the British Security Forces. Did they actually make things any better? The only thing we can say is there would certainly be more catholics alive today if the IRA didn't exist. I would have imagined moggy or major would have helped a UI become possible were it not for the blood thirsty IRA.

duckcfc

josip wrote: »

It is not "crap" about Adams.
The IRA murdered unarmed Gardai protecting the citizens of this country.
For some children Daddy never came home from work.

There was a war on!! Changed times now and to make another point, the IRA just didn't go out to target unarmed gardai for fun. They're deaths shouldn't have happened but the fact is, there was a war on and some gardai just got in the way.

Timberrrrrrrr

duckcfc wrote: »

There was a war on!! Changed times now and to make another point, the IRA just didn't go out to target unarmed gardai for fun. They're deaths shouldn't have happened but the fact is, there was a war on and some gardai just got in the way.

But if an unarmed IRA "soldier" was shot by the SAS it was suddenly a shoot to kill policy "but the fact is, there was a war on and some just got in the way" works both ways.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

Did you read GA's statement or just cherrypick the bits that 'appall' you?
He deals with all of that fairly comprehensively.
Nobody should be dealing with this stuff in the media. What is required is that people who have issues or complaints bring them to the proper authorities and have them forensically and properly examined.

I didn't see any destinations or names in Gerry's statement.

His statement raises more questions than answers.

The Cahill case may only be the tip of the iceberg. Last week Gerry was saying "if there was an IRA investigation, that was wrong". This week Gerry is able to tell us there were lots of IRA investigations and people were shot and expelled. With a bit of luck he can tell us more next week and we might eventually get to the bottom of this story.

duckcfc

gallag wrote: »

yet the IRA/SF Killed more catholics/nationalists than the UVF, UDA or the British Security Forces. Did they actually make things any better? The only thing we can say is there would certainly be more catholics alive today if the IRA didn't exist. I would have imagined moggy or major would have helped a UI become possible were it not for the blood thirsty IRA.

Maggie and major would have helped bring a UI if it wasn't for the IRA, you my friend have just gave me one of the funniest things I've read on the internet in quite awhile. Now can you tell me what you base that crap on all while the Irish would still be 2nd class citizens in a dirty orange state. And what about Paisley and his mob, do you think they would have agreed with tgem .

Did SF and the IRA make things better for the Catholics up north, you can bet your balls they did. The place is totally recognizable up there now. I remember that war and would hate my people to go through any of it again and I'm proud of men like Adams and the IRA who rose up against it. Many men like yourself wouldn't have the balls and would lie down and just accept the status quo.

maccored

If that seriously is news to you, then maybe you shouldnt be having any more conversations about what happened in the north until you educate yourself a bit on the subject.

Godge wrote: »

This week Gerry is able to tell us there were lots of IRA investigations and people were shot and expelled.

maccored

Not according to this - http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/troubles/troubles_stats.html#community

If you add the combined loyalist killings of catholics, they far exceed that of the IRA. Plus SF never shot anyone.

gallag wrote: »

yet the IRA/SF Killed more catholics/nationalists than the UVF, UDA or the British Security Forces. Did they actually make things any better? The only thing we can say is there would certainly be more catholics alive today if the IRA didn't exist. I would have imagined moggy or major would have helped a UI become possible were it not for the blood thirsty IRA.

ThisRegard

maccored wrote: »

Denying gossip. Oh what a terrible man he is.

You see, this is the head in the sand attitude that will hold SF back.

Johnny Bubble

I see the big unit MLMcD is being forced into some serious climb down.

Godge

maccored wrote: »

If that seriously is news to you, then maybe you shouldnt be having any more conversations about what happened in the north until you educate yourself a bit on the subject.

It wasn't news to me, but it was news to Gerry.

Last week he said in relation to Maria Cahill "If there was an IRA investigation, that was wrong". This week there are loads of them and sex offenders have been shot and expelled. Thing is, we don't know where they are now.

ThisRegard

Happyman42 wrote: »

The party is the real 'problem', lets not kid ourselves. If it wasn't allegations about GA it would be something else.
Some people can be bought and influenced by the media, that is why powerful people buy newspapers and TV stations.

And again, this idea there's no independent thinking in Ireland. "If you're not with us, you're only against us because the meeja told you to".

maccored

It wasnt news to gerry. he was trying to explain how things were to those who have no understanding of it.

Godge wrote: »

It wasn't news to me, but it was news to Gerry.

Last week he said in relation to Maria Cahill "If there was an IRA investigation, that was wrong". This week there are loads of them and sex offenders have been shot and expelled. Thing is, we don't know where they are now.

maccored

So the claims he's lying about IRA membership isnt gossip? Its fact? And you can prove that?

if not, what are you talking about with 'this head in the sand attitude'?

ThisRegard wrote: »

You see, this is the head in the sand attitude that will hold SF back.

Godge

maccored wrote: »

It wasnt news to gerry. he was trying to explain how things were to those who have no understanding of it.

http://www.newstalk.com/Mairia-Cahill-on-Gerry-Adams:-I-am-calling-for-him-to-do-the-decent-thing-and-step-down


Here is Mairia explaining how things were to those who have no understanding of it.

Maybe someone could explain child sexual abuse and how things are in relation to that to Gerry Adams and he might show a bit of compassion.

Rightwing

Adams needs to go. SF can be the dominant force in Irish politics, but not with Adams at the helm. Too much dirt from the past + he is as incapable a politician as is out there, and there are damn bad ones out there.

maccored

?

whats that got to do with how the IRA dealt with issues? and who is denying child sex abuse took place?

Godge wrote: »

http://www.newstalk.com/Mairia-Cahill-on-Gerry-Adams:-I-am-calling-for-him-to-do-the-decent-thing-and-step-down


Here is Mairia explaining how things were to those who have no understanding of it.

Maybe someone could explain child sexual abuse and how things are in relation to that to Gerry Adams and he might show a bit of compassion.

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

I didn't see any destinations or names in Gerry's statement.

So Gerry should start publicly outing people who where 'alleged' to be abusers and rapists?

In defence of her Uncle Joe, Maria Cahill just said on Sean O'Rourke...'If there is no victim, there is no crime'
So until victims come forward to the proper authorities (as Adams says) then there is not much that can be done on that score. Maria can still go to the proper authorities with her allegations and the 'irrefutable evidence' she says she has but nobody that I know of has seen.

josip

Dessie "112lbs of Explosives" Ellis manning the parapet now.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1020/653455-mairia-cahill/
Wouldn't Sinn Fein be better off letting members who don't have blood under their fingernails, make the media announcements?

Rightwing

Happyman42 wrote: »

So Gerry should start publicly outing people who where 'alleged' to be abusers and rapists?

In defence of her Uncle Joe, Maria Cahill just said on Sean O'Rourke...'If there is no victim, there is no crime'
So until victims come forward to the proper authorities (as Adams says) then there is not much that can be done on that score. Maria can still go to the proper authorities with her allegations and the 'irrefutable evidence' she says she has but nobody that I know of has seen.

What is this about ?

Happyman42

ThisRegard wrote: »

And again, this idea there's no independent thinking in Ireland. "If you're not with us, you're only against us because the meeja told you to".

There has been no convictions on any of the 'allegations' over the years. Yet 'independent' thinkers believe them anyway?

Editor|: 'Shouldn't that read 'Independent readers Happyman42?' :rolleyes:

Happyman42

Rightwing wrote: »

What is this about ?

She was asked about 'allegations' about her Uncle Joe Cahill in this morning's newspapers.

maccored

great uncle

Rightwing

Happyman42 wrote: »

She was asked about 'allegations' about her Uncle Joe Cahill in this morning's newspapers.

I'm not really familiar with any of this, what are the allegations?

Barely There

duckcfc wrote: »

There was a war on!!

There wasn't a war on - it really doesn't matter how many exclamation points you add, you're just not going to make it true.

Love the way this line is constantly trotted out by SF/IRA to try to justify the atrocities carried out by them over 3 decades of murder and mayhem.

I've great admiration for the actions of the SDLP who worked within the existing political establishment to engender real social change. The IRA murdered, bombed, maimed, robbed, and raped innocent people over a prolonged period of time without justification and achieved the grand total of fcuk all.

That's the reality.

Time for the Shinnerbots to admit it to themselves.

Adams is a busted flush and SF are forever tainted to the majority of Irish people.

maccored

Your reality doesnt match with the reality I had growing up during it

Barely There wrote: »

There wasn't a war on - it really doesn't matter how many exclamation points you add, you're just not going to make it true.

Love the way this line is constantly trotted out by SF/IRA to try to justify the atrocities carried out by them over 3 decades of murder and mayhem.

I've great admiration for the actions of the SDLP who worked within the existing political establishment to engender real social change. The IRA murdered, bombed, maimed, robbed, and raped innocent people over a prolonged period of time without justification and achieved the grand total of fcuk all.

That's the reality.

Time for the Shinnerbots to admit it to themselves.

Adams is a busted flush and SF are forever tainted to the majority of Irish people.

Rightwing

Barely There wrote: »

There wasn't a war on - it really doesn't matter how many exclamation points you add, you're just not going to make it true.

Love the way this line is constantly trotted out by SF/IRA to try to justify the atrocities carried out by them over 3 decades of murder and mayhem.

I've great admiration for the actions of the SDLP who worked within the existing political establishment to engender real social change. The IRA murdered, bombed, maimed, robbed, and raped innocent people over a prolonged period of time without justification and achieved the grand total of fcuk all.

That's the reality.

Time for the Shinnerbots to admit it to themselves.

Adams is a busted flush and SF are forever tainted to the majority of Irish people.

Current economic matters trumps any matters from the past. This is why SF are rising and the other parties are very worried.

ThisRegard

josip wrote: »

Dessie "112lbs of Explosives" Ellis manning the parapet now.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1020/653455-mairia-cahill/
Wouldn't Sinn Fein be better off letting members who don't have blood under their fingernails, make the media announcements?

You know things are bad when you have people like him being rolled out. I'd say some of the newer, and those would be seen as more respectable, members wouldn't want to touch this with a barge pole. Pearse Doherty would rightly feel he was stitched up yesterday.

They need to clear the decks of anyone with a murky past, starting with Adams.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

So Gerry should start publicly outing people who where 'alleged' to be abusers and rapists?

So all of those people who were kneecapped, shot and expelled from the North by SF/IRA are only "alleged" to have been drug dealers, abusers, burglars, car thieves and rapists?

Can they sue Uncle Joe's estate, and the two Martins and Dessie as acknowledged members of the IRA for damage to their reputation and for compensation?

If the IRA administered justice in Northern Ireland as Gerry Adams claimed - "In many republican areas the community put pressure on the IRA - which sprang from and was sustained by the community - to fill this policing vacuum." "However, the IRA often punished petty criminals, car thieves, burglars and drug dealers" - why can't they name who they punished and why they were punished??

Given "the high standards and decency of the vast majority of IRA volunteers", this should be possible as the high standards and decency would mean they would be willing to come forward. Or maybe the standards and decency aren't so high after all?

maccored

Do you, hand on heart, think the IRA kept logs and records or something? Otherwise, who would have recorded the info in regards the who, what and where? Nevermind his 'claims' are true ... there's no arguing about that part (or at least there shouldnt be as thats what happened)

Godge wrote: »

So all of those people who were kneecapped, shot and expelled from the North by SF/IRA are only "alleged" to have been drug dealers, abusers, burglars, car thieves and rapists?

Can they sue Uncle Joe's estate, and the two Martins and Dessie as acknowledged members of the IRA for damage to their reputation and for compensation?

If the IRA administered justice in Northern Ireland as Gerry Adams claimed - "In many republican areas the community put pressure on the IRA - which sprang from and was sustained by the community - to fill this policing vacuum." "However, the IRA often punished petty criminals, car thieves, burglars and drug dealers" - why can't they name who they punished and why they were punished??

Given "the high standards and decency of the vast majority of IRA volunteers", this should be possible as the high standards and decency would mean they would be willing to come forward. Or maybe the standards and decency aren't so high after all?

Happyman42

Barely There wrote: »

SF are forever tainted to the majority of Irish people.

You might have some traction with that theory if it where not for the fact that SF where not the biggest nationalist party in NI and powersharing as equals in a formerly sectarian state and growing year on year in the South.

Godge

maccored wrote: »

Do you, hand on heart, think the IRA kept logs and records or something? Otherwise, who would have recorded the info in regards the who, what and where? Nevermind his 'claims' are true ... there's no arguing about that part (or at least there shouldnt be as thats what happened)

So they administered kneecapping, punishment beatings, shootings and expelling without keeping the minimum record? I am not surprised by that but that doesn't accord with a statement that lauds "the high standards and decency of the vast majority of IRA volunteers".

Either there was high standards and decency which means records were kept and there are decent people who can come forward with those record. Or else there was low standards and a lack of decency and people were beaten, shot and expelled for little evidence or reason. SF/IRA can't have it both ways.

ThisRegard

Happyman42 wrote: »

You might have some traction with that theory if it where not for the fact that SF where not the biggest nationalist party in NI and powersharing as equals in a formerly sectarian state and growing year on year in the South.

Sinn Fein north and south are two different parties, often with opposing views to each other, with a completely different background. They might as well be two different political parties.