More Crap on Adams, Mod Warning in OP.

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

So all of those people who were kneecapped, shot and expelled from the North by SF/IRA are only "alleged" to have been drug dealers, abusers, burglars, car thieves and rapists?

Can they sue Uncle Joe's estate, and the two Martins and Dessie as acknowledged members of the IRA for damage to their reputation and for compensation?

If the IRA administered justice in Northern Ireland as Gerry Adams claimed - "In many republican areas the community put pressure on the IRA - which sprang from and was sustained by the community - to fill this policing vacuum." "However, the IRA often punished petty criminals, car thieves, burglars and drug dealers" - why can't they name who they punished and why they were punished??

Given "the high standards and decency of the vast majority of IRA volunteers", this should be possible as the high standards and decency would mean they would be willing to come forward. Or maybe the standards and decency aren't so high after all?

Could you for once answer the question you where asked...'Should GA start publicly naming people alleged to be rapists and abusers?'


p.s. he has already said that it was wrong that the IRA dealt with this stuff and outlined the very real reasons why it happened like it did. Maria Cahill said on the Spotlight programme that she herself did NOT recognise the RUC's right to police.
You must also remember that the RUC was disbanded in disgrace, the lack of proper policing was just another of the tragedies of a failed sectarian state.

maccored

that couldnt be further from the truth. Really, whats the point if people are just going to make stuff up?

ThisRegard wrote: »

Sinn Fein north and south are two different parties, often with opposing views to each other, with a completely different background. They might as well be two different political parties.

Happyman42

ThisRegard wrote: »

Sinn Fein north and south are two different parties, often with opposing views to each other, with a completely different background. They might as well be two different political parties.

That is just getting into the realms of ridiculousness.

maccored

So, you DO think the IRA - an illegal organisation - kept records of the people they got rid of. I wouldnt agree. basically because its a very silly thing for an illegal organisation - who's members many times didnt even know each other - to do. decency has nothing to do with keeping records btw. thats just being silly.

Godge wrote: »

So they administered kneecapping, punishment beatings, shootings and expelling without keeping the minimum record? I am not surprised by that but that doesn't accord with a statement that lauds "the high standards and decency of the vast majority of IRA volunteers".

Either there was high standards and decency which means records were kept and there are decent people who can come forward with those record. Or else there was low standards and a lack of decency and people were beaten, shot and expelled for little evidence or reason. SF/IRA can't have it both ways.

Rightwing

Without knowing much, I'd say someone gave Maria a few bob to open her mouth. She was ill advised. Sorry state of affairs the whole thing.

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

Could you for once answer the question you where asked...'Should GA start publicly naming people alleged to be rapists and abusers?'


p.s. he has already said that it was wrong that the IRA dealt with this stuff and outlined the very real reasons why it happened like it did. Maria Cahill said on the Spotlight programme that she herself did NOT recognise the RUC's right to police.
You must also remember that the RUC was disbanded in disgrace, the lack of proper policing was just another of the tragedies of a failed sectarian state.

Were they alleged to be rapists and abusers or did the SF/IRA system of justice find them guilty of being rapists and abusers in accordance with the so-called high standards and decency of IRA members?

I can't answer your question until I know which category they fall into.

I can put it another way though. If it is accepted that SF/IRA ran around the North terrorising, controlling and intimidating the local Catholic population while shooting, beating, kneecapping and expelling rapists and abusers merely on allegations, then it is more difficult to name them. But that does not tally with what he and others have said happened so yes, he should name them if they were subject to high standards and decency of justice.

He could also name them under privilege in the Dail .

ThisRegard

maccored wrote: »

that couldnt be further from the truth. Really, whats the point if people are just going to make stuff up?

Happyman42 wrote: »

That is just getting into the realms of ridiculousness.

What did I make up ?

Godge

Rightwing wrote: »

Without knowing much, I'd say someone gave Maria a few bob to open her mouth. She was ill advised. Sorry state of affairs the whole thing.

The only bit of your post that rings true is that you don't know much about the story.

Sierra Oscar

maccored wrote: »

Do you, hand on heart, think the IRA kept logs and records or something?

That is the EXACT same excuse that the church used to justify the covering up of child sex abuse and for moving abusers to different locations, allowing them to abuse children again. That line of defence did not hold up with the Irish public and it won't for SF/IRA either.

Eitherway even if there is no documentary evidence, which is contested by Cahill, it does not matter. Just ask the prople that sat on the internal enquiries that your leader has now admitted to having taken place. Those members have been named by Cahill and some still occupy very senior positions in SF/IRA. This happened in the 2000's, not 1970's.

maccored

that SF in the north and south are virtually two different parties. they arent.

ThisRegard wrote: »

What did I make up ?

maccored

thats not an excuse - its a question. the church were an illegal organisation then were they?

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

That is the EXACT same excuse that the church used to justify the covering up of child sex abuse and for moving abusers to different locations, allowing them to abuse children again. That line of defence dos not he up with the Irish public and it won't for SF/IRA either.

Eitherway even if there is no documentary evidence, which is contested by Cahill, it does not matter. Just ask the prople that saw on the internal enquiries that your leader has now admitted to having existed. Those members have been named by Cahill and some still occupy very senior positions in SF/IRA. This happened in the 2000's, not 1970's.

Dyr

Godge wrote: »

Either there was high standards and decency which means records were kept and there are decent people who can come forward with those record.

The provos should have been keeping records of their activities? With that you drift off into the magical land of self righteous makebelieve

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBdGOrcUEg8

ThisRegard

maccored wrote: »

that SF in the north and south are virtually two different parties. they arent.

So they have a unified set of policies, north and south ?

Godge

maccored wrote: »

So, you DO think the IRA - an illegal organisation - kept records of the people they got rid of. I wouldnt agree. basically because its a very silly thing for an illegal organisation - who's members many times didnt even know each other - to do. decency has nothing to do with keeping records btw. thats just being silly.

Mairia Cahill has said that there is a recording in existence of her case. I think she repeats this in this interview.

http://www.newstalk.com/Mairia-Cahill-on-Gerry-Adams:-I-am-calling-for-him-to-do-the-decent-thing-and-step-down

So yes, I do think the IRA kept records. They probably existed up until last week when this story broke.

maccored

two different places, but yes, overall they have the same outlook in both places.

ThisRegard wrote: »

So they have a unified set of policies, north and south ?

Godge

Bambi wrote: »

The provos should have been keeping records of their activities? With that you drift off into the magical land of self righteous makebelieve

Well, I know you don't believe Ms. Cahill was a victim, so your response shouldn't surprise but she has said herself there were recordings made of her case and she believes they still exist.

maccored

of her interview with adams? And yet she isnt using that to prove her case about her discussion with him? doesnt that sound strange to you?

Godge wrote: »

Mairia Cahill has said that there is a recording in existence of her case. I think she repeats this in this interview.

http://www.newstalk.com/Mairia-Cahill-on-Gerry-Adams:-I-am-calling-for-him-to-do-the-decent-thing-and-step-down

So yes, I do think the IRA kept records. They probably existed up until last week when this story broke.

Rightwing

Godge wrote: »

The only bit of your post that rings true is that you don't know much about the story.

I must be honest - I know nothing about it. I'm more interested in seeing will it impact on SF even in the short term.

ThisRegard

maccored wrote: »

two different places, but yes, overall they have the same outlook in both places.

Property taxes, water charges, and broader budget cuts to name but 3. They have a different approach to both depending on what side of the border they're on.

maccored

Nope. they fought against property taxes and water charges. London looks after those things, not stormont.

ThisRegard wrote: »

Property taxes, water charges, and broader budget cuts to name but 3. They have a different approach to both depending on what side of the border they're on.

bobbysands81

Maybe we should all take a step back from turning this into a crass political football and remember that at the root of this is a female who was sexually abused.

Highlighting sexual abuse is always to be commended but turning it into a political football to score political points is cheap and disgusting.

Will Enda Kenny make time is his diary for ALL victims of sexual abuse now or will he onky do it when there's political capital to be made?

ThisRegard

maccored wrote: »

Nope. they fought against property taxes and water charges. London looks after those things, not stormont.

Property taxes are controlled by the local councils up there aren't they ?

maccored

http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/26394 - fyi

ThisRegard wrote: »

Property taxes, water charges, and broader budget cuts to name but 3. They have a different approach to both depending on what side of the border they're on.

maccored

again incorrect - councils can only set the rate. t hey have no power over if there IS a charge or not.

ThisRegard wrote: »

Property taxes are controlled by the local councils up there aren't they ?

ThisRegard

maccored wrote: »

again incorrect - councils can only set the rate. t hey have no power over if there IS a charge or not.

The rate is the most relevant part of the property tax, a rate which they increase in many of their councils, granted not all.

maccored

thats up to the council, not SF. You know, democracy and all that.

ThisRegard wrote: »

The rate is the most relevant part of the property tax, a rate which they increase.

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

Were they alleged to be rapists and abusers or did the SF/IRA system of justice find them guilty of being rapists and abusers in accordance with the so-called high standards and decency of IRA members?

I can't answer your question until I know which category they fall into.

I can put it another way though. If it is accepted that SF/IRA ran around the North terrorising, controlling and intimidating the local Catholic population while shooting, beating, kneecapping and expelling rapists and abusers merely on allegations, then it is more difficult to name them. But that does not tally with what he and others have said happened so yes, he should name them if they were subject to high standards and decency of justice.

He could also name them under privilege in the Dail .

Adams said it was wrong and that the IRA sometimes made mistakes, so we don't know if they where guilty.
Do you think it would be responsible for Adams to now name them in public or do you think that having admitted they made mistakes that the PROPER thing to do for everybody involved is to go to the proper authorities?

Godge wrote: »

Mairia Cahill has said that there is a recording in existence of her case. I think she repeats this in this interview.

http://www.newstalk.com/Mairia-Cahill-on-Gerry-Adams:-I-am-calling-for-him-to-do-the-decent-thing-and-step-down

So yes, I do think the IRA kept records. They probably existed up until last week when this story broke.

Godge will you take a few hours off the internet and review this story and get your facts about it straight.
She was referring to tapes made by the British who allegedly bugged IRA offices.
Just shows you how much anti SF people are taking onboard about the actual story.
The Independent obviously knows it's target readership well.

Godge

maccored wrote: »

of her interview with adams? And yet she isnt using that to prove her case about her discussion with him? doesnt that sound strange to you?

You obviously haven't listened very carefully. She didn't record the interview but she says the IRA recorded it.

It does sound strange that those with the recording - SF/IRA - haven't released the recording to back the words of the Dear Leader.

ThisRegard

maccored wrote: »

thats up to the council, not SF. You know, democracy and all that.

Seriously though, who controls many of the councils, democratically elected to do so and all that ?

Dyr

Godge wrote: »

Well, I know you don't believe Ms. Cahill was a victim, so your response shouldn't surprise but she has said herself there were recordings made of her case and she believes they still exist.

I said I don't believe her? I neither believe or disbelieve her, as no proof has been presented. I don't take peoples word at face value in these matters


You on the other hand, well..you want to believe regardless, why would that be?

Anywhoo, your original statement had nothing to do with the cahill case, you thought the provos should have been keeping records of who they punished, in case they ever needed to be checked at some point in the future, which is a patently ludicrous idea.

maccored

You said SF have control over property taxes etc - they clearly do not. They can only do what every other party can do and that is be part of the discussion. I think you are starting to scrape the barrel with this.

ThisRegard wrote: »

Seriously though, who controls many of the councils, democratically elected to do so and all that ?

the_syco

Creative Juices wrote: »

Look call it whatever you like, my misplaced perception, my brainwashing by the media whatever...the fact is I don't trust him and I never will. And there are many like me.
SF need to deal with that one way or the other.

IMO, they need ot get rid of the "old guard".

duckcfc wrote: »

There was no other route to go other than take up arms and fight for basic human rights so IMO, of course they where revolutionary leaders

Although there were other ways, the other ways were not bearing fruit. As for "revolutionary leaders", one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. I'll view them as terrorists, but at the same time admit that they did what was needed. Not the right way to go about it, but back any animal into a corner, and you won't like the outcome.

duckcfc wrote: »

There was a war on!!

If this is true, the Bloody Sunday soldiers have nothing to answer for. As the door of justice swings both ways, if you want justice, you must ensure justice is adhered to.

ThisRegard wrote: »

So they have a unified set of policies, north and south ?

Not really. See the difference in the water charge and property tax. Down here they want it scrapped. Don't hear them trying to scrap it up north.

maccored

Do you mean the british recordings happyman mentioned? Are you sure its me who hasnt been listening carefully?

Godge wrote: »

You obviously haven't listened very carefully. She didn't record the interview but she says the IRA recorded it.

It does sound strange that those with the recording - SF/IRA - haven't released the recording to back the words of the Dear Leader.

ThisRegard

maccored wrote: »

You said SF have control over property taxes etc - they clearly do not.

maccored wrote: »

councils can only set the rate.

So local council rates set rates, Sinn Fein are the majority party in many councils, such councils increase rates. SF, with a majority, should be able to vote down any increases, and infact vote for decreases.

What am I not seeing ?

K-9

gunny558 wrote: »

Right well listen I am a SF GA supporter and during a team debate I had the arse tore out of me by someone from FF.

And its got me wondering. During the debates we basically threw dirt and called people hypocrites and pulled skeletons out of their closets. And to be honest I never quite realised thats what we did.... not on those words.... the thought process was a bit more like "oh well your one to talk...."

So anyway, I got the ass tore out of me and then I started noticing I was doing it.... and then I started noticing it on here.

During debates, same as whats happened right here in this thread... there is an issue highlighted about Gerry Adams and soon enough we are saying "look what cameron did", "look what thatcher did"..... "do you know the MI5 knowingly employed a paedo"... "do you know what FF did"... "the media doesnt like us" etc

There is another debate on this Thursday about GA and the Cahill girl.... and I just know Im gonna have my ass handed to me again. Your obviously an up to speed guy (along with a few others on here)..... Id like see a proper debate take place on here and see some good arguments put forward and defended..... and not... as you say.... continusoly pointing out of hypocrisy.

Excellent post, which to prove your point, got completely ignored!

Denis Bradley on Newstalk was brilliant this morning, as he said nobody comes out of the troubles looking good. Policing is one of the first victims in a war situation but the heads of the IRA should have had the cop to know that they couldn't possibly deal with sex abuse cases. That was for the state authorities to deal with, and even they, with far more resources and knowledge, often got it wrong.

Really, the last group that should be dealing with sex abuse cases is the IRA.

DellyBelly

I was thinking big time of voting for Sinn Fein in the next election (voted for them in the local elections) but this kind of rubbish really has changed my mind. Still can't see myself voting for FG or Labour so maybe I'll give FF a second chance ort maybe go independent.

maccored

you are now saying SF can dictate to councils what the rates are. Im not too sure what you arent seeing or not to be honest as I can't fathom your point.

ThisRegard wrote: »

So local council rates set rates, Sinn Fein are the majority party in many councils, such councils increase rates. SF, with a majority, should be able to vote down any increases, and infact vote for decreases.

What am I not seeing ?

Happyman42

K-9 wrote: »

Really, the last group that should be dealing with sex abuse cases is the IRA.

I think GA dealt with that too in his statement in fairness.

Godge

maccored wrote: »

Do you mean the british recordings happyman mentioned? Are you sure its me who hasnt been listening carefully?

I haven't heard any references to british recordings.

However, I just listened back to her interview this morning and she mentioned that she has called on those who have recordings of the meeting to release the recordings.

maybe, some other time she said that was the British, maybe it is happyman who is speculating that, I don't know, but I would also like to see those recordings released. It certainly isn't Mairia Cahill who is withholding them.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92685494&postcount=318

However, it is you who suggested Ms. Cahill was withholding the recordings. So how do you now conclude they were British?

maccored

Im not concluding anything. Im stating if she had the recordings then why doesnt she use them. Now you say she claims the IRA have the recordings.
Who's going to have them? the PIRA disbanded years ago.

Godge wrote: »

I haven't heard any references to british recordings.

However, I just listened back to her interview this morning and she mentioned that she has called on those who have recordings of the meeting to release the recordings.

maybe, some other time she said that was the British, maybe it is happyman who is speculating that, I don't know, but I would also like to see those recordings released. It certainly isn't Mairia Cahill who is withholding them.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92685494&postcount=318

However, it is you who suggested Ms. Cahill was withholding the recordings. So how do you now conclude they were British?

Godge

K-9 wrote: »

Excellent post, which to prove your point, got completely ignored!

Denis Bradley on Newstalk was brilliant this morning, as he said nobody comes out of the troubles looking good. Policing is one of the first victims in a war situation but the heads of the IRA should have had the cop to know that they couldn't possibly deal with sex abuse cases. That was for the state authorities to deal with, and even they, with far more resources and knowledge, often got it wrong.

Really, the last group that should be dealing with sex abuse cases is the IRA.

The problem now is that Sinn Fein don't appear to have the cop on to come clean about exactly what happened.

They are like the Catholic Church. We dealt with it in our own way and moved them on. That is just not good enough. It is also not good enough that victims are still waiting for justice.

K-9

Mod:

This really isn't the thread for stuff about rates in the North. I'm sure there are others in the politics forum to do that. Thanks.

Rightwing

DellyBelly wrote: »

I was thinking big time of voting for Sinn Fein in the next election (voted for them in the local elections) but this kind of rubbish really has changed my mind. Still can't see myself voting for FG or Labour so maybe I'll give FF a second chance ort maybe go independent.

That's the worry for SF. The 2 most economic illiterate parties competing for the same vote. FF could well be the winners here.

ThisRegard

maccored wrote: »

you are now saying SF can dictate to councils what the rates are.

Sinn Fein are the council !

EDIT: Just saw the mod message. Apologies.

K-9

Happyman42 wrote: »

I think GA dealt with that too in his statement in fairness.

Bradleys point was Adams should have come out with that straight away. When you're explaining you are losing in politics, especially when it comes to sexual abuse cases and kangaroo courts.

maccored

that does not equal sinn fein in the north and south are completely different. thats what you are missing. Im saying no more on this as per mod request.

ThisRegard wrote: »

So local council rates set rates, Sinn Fein are the majority party in many councils, such councils increase rates. SF, with a majority, should be able to vote down any increases, and infact vote for decreases.

What am I not seeing ?

Happyman42

Godge wrote: »

I haven't heard any references to british recordings.

However, I just listened back to her interview this morning and she mentioned that she has called on those who have recordings of the meeting to release the recordings.

maybe, some other time she said that was the British, maybe it is happyman who is speculating that, I don't know, but I would also like to see those recordings released. It certainly isn't Mairia Cahill who is withholding them.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=92685494&postcount=318

However, it is you who suggested Ms. Cahill was withholding the recordings. So how do you now conclude they were British?

Godge, she claimed the British bugged the IRA and 'must' have the recordings.

She also re-iterated this morning that she had 'irrefutable evidence' of what she is alleging.
She hasn't released that either.

Dan_Solo

Creative Juices wrote: »

Ah stop, we all know. He is a liar.

He was an IRA member and he might be liable for 2 years prison (under legislation that followed the GFA). It would be highly unlikely that Mr Adams would be prosecuted or that a judge would impose a custodial sentence.

Unless somebody "wanted it to happen". Like for example, somebody wanting to bring him in for questioning around an election time, which would surely never happen.

Dyr

Happyman42 wrote: »

Godge, she claimed the British bugged the IRA and 'must' have the recordings.

She also re-iterated this morning that she had 'irrefutable evidence' of what she is alleging.
She hasn't released that either.

Is this the original trial or was there another?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-27027645

Godge

Happyman42 wrote: »

Godge, she claimed the British bugged the IRA and 'must' have the recordings.

She also re-iterated this morning that she had 'irrefutable evidence' of what she is alleging.
She hasn't released that either.

Link to this British claim. I must have missed it along the way. I was so stunned by some of the stuff I saw and listened to that I must have missed that reference.