Convicts who've served their time.

Recondite49

eviltwin wrote: »

We don't know this is a false complaint though. The act happened. Only Evans and the woman know if it was rape or not. Its possible they both have different opinions of what took place and both are innocent of any wrongdoing.

We know false allegations happen but they are rare compared to genuine cases. The UK rape crisis network says false claims are only about 4%, some police forces say it could be 8-10% but that means at least 90% are genuine and that's only the 90% that get reported.

4%? As in one in twenty five?

It's notoriously difficult to calculate false allegations as it is of course for the dark figure of unreported crime.

Certainly though I think 1 in 25 would be much too high for my liking if I wanted to make a complaint. Then again people don't seem to get so emotional when we look at a different category of crime e.g GBH - absent any corroborating evidence, we don't seem to feel that the accused must have been guilty all along.

Buona Fortuna

Laois6556 wrote: »

The sentences for serious crimes such as rape is far too lenient both in this case and in general.

Please tell me you're nothing to do with the judiciary.

Gelatomela

Laois6556 wrote: »

See you're doubting the woman right there.

2 years is a lot shorter than the life sentence the victim has got.

Of course she should be doubted, as should Ched Evans. None of us know who is telling the truth.

Laois6556

Cienciano wrote: »

Nice strawman argument there. You seem to have trouble understanding severity or crimes and think everything is black and white. Its not

It has been explained, rape is rape, there can be additional crimes with that also.

branie2

I'm coming home, I've served my time.
And I got know what is or isn't mine

Recondite49

Laois6556 wrote: »

See you're doubting the woman right there.

2 years is a lot shorter than the life sentence the victim has got.

What life sentence would this be? You mean because of the trauma caused by an incident of which she has no memory? An incident where no excessive force was used and she was uninjured physically? A crime committed by a man who most likely will struggle to have a functional relationship again with a woman without the media being all over him?

Two years is quite enough in my view. The Judge seems to have agreed, he's done his time, can we move on?

Laois6556

eviltwin wrote: »

It doesn't have to be a life sentence. I would argue as well that the media attention, the abuse from the internet trolls and the dragging up of this again is more damaging to her.

No, it doesn't have to be but for many it is. I agree the attention wont be doing her any good, another reason as to why he should have got a longer sentence.

Cienciano

Laois6556 wrote: »

It has been explained, rape is rape, there can be additional crimes with that also.

Yeah, you explain your stance earlier, you were wrong then and you're still wrong.

Laois6556

Gelatomela wrote: »

Of course she should be doubted, as should Ched Evans. None of us know who is telling the truth.

He was convicted.

eviltwin

Recondite49 wrote: »

4%? As in one in twenty five?

It's notoriously difficult to calculate false allegations as it is of course for the dark figure of unreported crime.

Certainly though I think 1 in 25 would be much too high for my liking if I wanted to make a complaint. Then again people don't seem to get so emotional when we look at a different category of crime e.g GBH - absent any corroborating evidence, we don't seem to feel that the accused must have been guilty all along.

It is too high, it should be 0% rape and sexual assault are a reality and also way too common but they have to be investigated. I agree the people who make false claims to damage to those who have been affected but so too does the assumption of lying. Its the reason I didn't go to the police when I was assaulted. Facts should speak for themselves and if the facts can't prove rape then the accused shouldn't be convicted. But unless the woman admits she was lying she shouldn't be assumed to be just because the evidence doesn't support her claim.

Laois6556

Recondite49 wrote: »

What life sentence would this be? You mean because of the trauma caused by an incident of which she has no memory? An incident where no excessive force was used and she was uninjured physically? A crime committed by a man who most likely will struggle to have a functional relationship again with a woman without the media being all over him?

Two years is quite enough in my view. The Judge seems to have agreed, he's done his time, can we move on?

Right, we got your point, you have more sympathy for the rapist than the victim. The thoughts of being raped could torture her for years, this has happened to ohers even though their memory has blanked the incident.

muddypaws

Laois6556 wrote: »

From your earlier post it's obvious that you either thinks she's lying or was asking for it.

Yes I have.

Wow.

What I actually think is that she is an adult who was out, got herself drunk and made a bad decision. She chose to go to a hotel room with a man. From reading the transcript I don't think she was raped, so no, I don't think she was asking for it. How can she be lying, when she can't remember what happened? I don't think you have read the transcript at all.

You're one of those feminists that believes all men are evil aren't you. Whereas I'm one that has lived my life, and continues to do so, making my own decisions, and living with them, regardless of what my gender may happen to be. And not allowing men to impact as negatively on what I do as you obviously do. Stop hating, and maybe get out there and start living?

Laois6556

Cienciano wrote: »

Yeah, you explain your stance earlier, you were wrong then and you're still wrong.

It's either rape or it isn't, how can you think differently?

muddypaws

Laois6556 wrote: »

He was convicted.

You can't have it both ways. He was convicted under the legal system, which you are happy with, and he has served the sentence handed down under that legal system, which you also have to accept.

eviltwin

Laois6556 wrote: »

No, it doesn't have to be but for many it is. I agree the attention wont be doing her any good, another reason as to why he should have got a longer sentence.

You can hardly blame Evans for the media attention now can you?

Gelatomela

Laois6556 wrote: »

He was convicted.

We know that. We still don't know if he committed the crime or not.

There are plenty of rapists out there who were never convicted and there are plenty of people convicted for rape who never raped anyone.

Recondite49

Laois6556 wrote: »

It's either rape or it isn't, how can you think differently?

Simply because a certain degree of drunkenness wouldn't mean that the woman can't consent to sex, of course such matters are for a jury to decide. As muddypaws says, you can't have it both ways, he was convicted and given a sentence by the court, we have to accept it. He could well have been acquitted.

Laois6556

muddypaws wrote: »

Wow.

What I actually think is that she is an adult who was out, got herself drunk and made a bad decision. She chose to go to a hotel room with a man. From reading the transcript I don't think she was raped, so no, I don't think she was asking for it. How can she be lying, when she can't remember what happened? I don't think you have read the transcript at all.

You're one of those feminists that believes all men are evil aren't you. Whereas I'm one that has lived my life, and continues to do so, making my own decisions, and living with them, regardless of what my gender may happen to be. And not allowing men to impact as negatively on what I do as you obviously do. Stop hating, and maybe get out there and start living?

She went back with one man, have you read the transcript? That's why that man was aquitted. The rapist came in later.

I want to see rapists get fair sentences, you want to victim blame.

Laois6556

muddypaws wrote: »

You can't have it both ways. He was convicted under the legal system, which you are happy with, and he has served the sentence handed down under that legal system, which you also have to accept.

That's what I'm saying, the system needs to be changed. Both here and in Britain.

Recondite49

Laois6556 wrote: »

She went back with one man, have you read the transcript? That's why that man was aquitted. The rapist came in later.

I want to see rapists get fair sentences, you want to victim blame.

Using the term "victim blame" is an appeal to the argument. If the complaint wasn't valid then the girl in question wasn't a victim.

I agree what he did was foolish but not overly malicious. He deserved to get two years but no more.

Laois6556

eviltwin wrote: »

You can hardly blame Evans for the media attention now can you?

I know, it's the justice system.

Penn

Gelatomela wrote: »

We know that. We still don't know if he committed the crime or not.

There are plenty of rapists out there who were never convicted and there are plenty of people convicted for rape who never raped anyone.

Innocent until proven guilty. He was proven guilty, so it has to be assumed he is guilty until such time as he can prove he's innocent.

Either way, he served his time in prison. That being said, allowing him to resume a highly paid, highly public career where thousands will be cheering him, rooting him on, appearing in the paper or TV occasionally, is unfair to the victim. He served his sentence, but that doesn't mean there won't still be consequences for what he did, and one of those consequences should be that his football career is over.

eviltwin

Laois6556 wrote: »

That's what I'm saying, the system needs to be changed. Both here and in Britain.

It does. You only have to look at the Anthony Lyons case to see the failings in our system. Britain I'm sure has similar cases. But you can't use this Ched Evans as a scapegoat, he has served the time given to him by the courts, what more can be done?

Recondite49

Laois6556 wrote: »

That's what I'm saying, the system needs to be changed. Both here and in Britain.

I heartily agree, namely:

- Accusations without corroboration shouldn't result in an arrest, particularly if the accused is a celebrity and it could injure their reputation on which of course they have to capitalise.

- Mandatory jail sentence of at least 12 months for women who make accusations against men which are later proven to be false.

- Abolishing the terms "rape culture" and "victim blaming", both are invalid and cloud the issue.

Laois6556

Gelatomela wrote: »

We know that. We still don't know if he committed the crime or not.

There are plenty of rapists out there who were never convicted and there are plenty of people convicted for rape who never raped anyone.

Of course but there's no reason to consider this man innocent.

Gelatomela

Penn wrote: »

Innocent until proven guilty. He was proven guilty, so it has to be assumed he is guilty until such time as he can prove he's innocent.

Either way, he served his time in prison. That being said, allowing him to resume a highly paid, highly public career where thousands will be cheering him, rooting him on, appearing in the paper or TV occasionally, is unfair to the victim. He served his sentence, but that doesn't mean there won't still be consequences for what he did, and one of those consequences should be that his football career is over.

I don't have to assume anything, I will always keep an open mind.

If he served his sentence he should be free to resume his career.

eviltwin

Recondite49 wrote: »

I heartily agree, namely:

- Accusations without corroboration shouldn't result in an arrest, particularly if the accused is a celebrity and it could injure their reputation on which of course they have to capitalise.

- Mandatory jail sentence of at least 12 months for women who make accusations against men which are later proven to be false.

- Abolishing the terms "rape culture" and "victim blaming", both are invalid and cloud the issue.

If he successfully overturns his conviction do you think the woman should go to jail?

B0jangles

Recondite49 wrote: »

I heartily agree, namely:

- Accusations without corroboration shouldn't result in an arrest, particularly if the accused is a celebrity and it could injure their reputation on which of course they have to capitalise.

- Mandatory jail sentence of at least 12 months for women who make accusations against men which are later proven to be false.

- Abolishing the terms "rape culture" and "victim blaming", both are invalid and cloud the issue.

So only violent rapists or non-violent rapists that were witnessed raping someone should get as far as even an arrest?


And you think that "rape culture" doesn't exist?

I hate to break it to you, but your views are the essence of what is meant by the term.

Recondite49

eviltwin wrote: »

If he successfully overturns his conviction do you think the woman should go to jail?

This comes down to the same issue we discussed before, where someone may have actually committed a crime but there isn't proof beyond reasonable doubt that they did so.

We certainly can't prove the statement was made maliciously beyond all reasonable doubt. In this case it's not even certain if the court granted leave to appeal. No doubt this would be interpreted as yet more "victim blaming."

Gelatomela

B0jangles wrote: »

So only violent rapes or non-violent rapes that were witnessed by a third party should get as far as even an arrest?


And you think that "rape culture" doesn't exist?

I hate to break it to you, but your views are the essence of what is meant by the term.

Rapists are abhorred worse than murderers, "rape culture" is ridiculous.

Recondite49

B0jangles wrote: »

So only violent rapists or non-violent rapists that were witnessed raping someone should get as far as even an arrest?


And you think that "rape culture" doesn't exist?

I hate to break it to you, but your views are the essence of what is meant by the term.

Well if someone makes a statement and an arrest is made, absent any corroborating evidence, the suspect would actually have to make a confession on bended knee and risk five years in the slammer - do you think there'd be a realistic prospect of them being charged under the circumstances?

Alternatively perhaps the Police could actually I don't know... investigate and see if there is anything to back up the accuser's statement - I don't think we need to narrowly interpret this as saying we only require a witness statement - what about actual forensic evidence of intercourse taking place? What about any signs of violence on that person or property? What about security camera footage showing the accused and the accuser together?

Rape Culture does exist but not in the way most people think. It represents wooly thinking and a desire to lower the burden of proof. Those people who are accused of rape deserve the same presumption of innocence as those people who are investigated in any other type of crime.

B0jangles

Gelatomela wrote: »

Rapists are abhorred worse than murderers, "rape culture" is ridiculous.

Have you read the thread? I'm not seeing a lot of hatred for convicted rapist Ched Evans.

B0jangles

Recondite49 wrote: »

Well if someone makes a statement and an arrest is made, absent any corroborating evidence, the suspect would actually have to make a confession on bended knee and risk five years in the slammer - do you think there'd be a realistic prospect of them being charged under the circumstances?

Alternatively perhaps the Police could actually I don't know... investigate and see if there is anything to back up the accuser's statement - I don't think we need to narrowly interpret this as saying we only require a witness statement - what about actual forensic evidence of intercourse taking place? What about any signs of violence on that person or property? What about security camera footage showing the accused and the accuser together?

Rape Culture does exist but not in the way most people think. It represents wooly thinking and a desire to lower the burden of proof. Those people who are accused of rape deserve the same presumption of innocence as those people who are investigated in any other type of crime.

I'm pretty sure that is what police officers are paid to do - investigate reported crimes?

Recondite49

The odd thing is when a woman is falsely accused of a crime, her fellow sisters are all over it. No doubt most of you will remember Angela Cannings who was convicted of killing her own babies, even though they died of SIDS - mostly it came down to the subjective interpretation of one supposed expert witness.

It just seems bizarre to me that when you take rape out of the equation and in particular when the accused is a woman we don't seem to have any problem recognising an unsafe conviction. When a man is accused of rape however it's assumed that as all men want sex he probably did it.

Johngoose

The Corrie male actors that were accused of rape falsely,will live out the rest of their lives with an air of suspicion hanging over them.I think it is dispicable that any woman would falsely accuse a man of rape.I also despise actual rapists,who have been convicted of rape,where there is undeniable evidence against them.

Gelatomela

B0jangles wrote: »

Have you read the thread? I'm not seeing a lot of hatred for convicted rapist Ched Evans.

Hatred is an emotion the world would be better off without, do you want to see more hatred in the world?

What do you want people to say about Ched Evans?

B0jangles

Gelatomela wrote: »

Hatred is an emotion the world would be better off without, do you want to see more hatred in the world?

What do you want people to say about Ched Evans?

I beg your pardon, perhaps I should have said "I'm not seeing a lot of abhorrence towards convicted rapist Ched Evans"

Happy?

eviltwin

Recondite49 wrote: »

The odd thing is when a woman is falsely accused of a crime, her fellow sisters are all over it. No doubt most of you will remember Angela Cannings who was convicted of killing her own babies, even though they died of SIDS - mostly it came down to the subjective interpretation of one supposed expert witness.

It just seems bizarre to me that when you take rape out of the equation and in particular when the accused is a woman we don't seem to have any problem recognising an unsafe conviction. When a man is accused of rape however it's assumed that as all men want sex he probably did it.

Not the same at all. She didn't have any kind of contact with her children that could have led to their deaths. She was convicted on the testimony of someone outside who wasn't there. Evans and this girl did have sex, that is not in doubt. How you can compare the two is beyond me.

Recondite49

B0jangles wrote: »

I'm pretty sure that is what police officers are paid to do - investigate reported crimes?

Yes indeed, I hate to sound patronising but you're not one of those people who believes that because people are paid to do something they're necessarily any good at it are you? If so you're in for a very rude awakening...!

I mentioned before the experience I went through with my brother. I was present when he was interviewed as he was only 17 at the time and they needed a responsible adult.

I put some very basic questions to the investigating officers which they were unable to answer e.g Was there a medical examination? Did you find any evidence of coercion on her body? Did you speak to other people at the party who are willing to testify that she was laughing and smiling both before and after the event? etc. etc.

I later on found out that they hadn't approached these people - indeed they did NOTHING after the complaint was made except report it and then arrest my brother. They didn't even do a rape kit on the girl which could have shown that the girl didn't have intercourse on the evening in question. She told me this herself three years later.

We count ourselves as lucky as I was able to persuade the "victim" to come forward and tell the truth. Many men aren't so fortunate.

Gelatomela

B0jangles wrote: »

I beg your pardon, perhaps I should have said "I'm not seeing a lot of abhorrence towards convicted rapist Ched Evans"

Happy?

Fir a start people don't know that he is a rapist, there is much doubt surrounding his case. Have you actually not seen how much people despise rapists?

Recondite49

eviltwin wrote: »

Not the same at all. She didn't have any kind of contact with her children that could have led to their deaths. She was convicted on the testimony of someone outside who wasn't there. Evans and this girl did have sex, that is not in doubt. How you can compare the two is beyond me.

Well as the mother she did have contact with the children; she was alone with them on a number of occasions. She was wrongly convicted based on a biased jury being swayed by a supposed expert who pointed out the symptoms are consistent with smothering as they are for SIDS.

In this case the evidence was that Evans and this girl had sex but the question or not was whether he found a criminal intent in so doing.

The only difference here is the type of crime and the fact that the accused is a woman. It magically removes the "rape culture" blinkers and helps us use some common sense.

Recondite49

B0jangles wrote: »

Have you read the thread? I'm not seeing a lot of hatred for convicted rapist Ched Evans.

In the same way that not every man who is acquitted is innocent, this man may well not be guilty. There's no harm in keeping an open mind ; I certainly don't think this man is a danger to society any longer.

Cyber Ghost

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Is a convicted rapist a good roll model for kids (yeah yea won't someone think of the kiddies ) but seriously, he goes back playing, i could honestly say if i was a Sheffield fan i wouldn't go to see him play and if my team were playing Sheffield away i wouldn't travel to that ground.

Football players are a bad role model for kids in general.

Stupid, materialistic, cheating, womanizing, etc

Lyger

Gelatomela wrote: »

Fir a start people don't know that he is a rapist, there is much doubt surrounding his case. Have you actually not seen how much people despise rapists?

Yeh like that guy in India.

The Evans case is a complex one for sure.

The commentary in favour of him about how he can rape who wants and stuff though is a bigger issue at this stage, in my opinion. That kinda stuff from people with mothers, wives, girlfriends, daughters... ain't good for society.

eviltwin

Recondite49 wrote: »

Well as the mother she did have contact with the children; she was alone with them on a number of occasions. She was wrongly convicted based on a biased jury being swayed by a supposed expert who pointed out the symptoms are consistent with smothering as they are for SIDS.

In this case the evidence was that Evans and this girl had sex but the question or not was whether he found a criminal intent in so doing.

The only difference here is the type of crime and the fact that the accused is a woman. It magically removes the "rape culture" blinkers and helps us use some common sense.

Now you are just being ridiculous. There are many high profile female criminals, women don't have a herd mentality that all females are innocent just because they are female. You certainly don't speak for me.

B0jangles

Recondite49 wrote: »

Yes indeed, I hate to sound patronising but you're not one of those people who believes that because people are paid to do something they're necessarily any good at it are you? If so you're in for a very rude awakening...!

I mentioned before the experience I went through with my brother. I was present when he was interviewed as he was only 17 at the time and they needed a responsible adult.

I put some very basic questions to the investigating officers which they were unable to answer e.g Was there a medical examination? Did you find any evidence of coercion on her body? Did you speak to other people at the party who are willing to testify that she was laughing and smiling both before and after the event? etc. etc.

I later on found out that they hadn't approached these people - indeed they did NOTHING after the complaint was made except report it and then arrest my brother. They didn't even do a rape kit on the girl which could have shown that the girl didn't have intercourse on the evening in question. She told me this herself three years later.

We count ourselves as lucky as I was able to persuade the "victim" to come forward and tell the truth. Many men aren't so fortunate.

First off, I'm very sorry your brother had such a terrible experience.

Of course I don't believe the police are perfect investigating machines, but do you really believe that this case would have even gone to trial if the investigation had not been thorough? Ched Evans' legal team would have pounced on any failure in the investigation like hawks, but they apparently couldn't find enough weaknesses to convince the jury not to convict.

We're not talking about a isolated teenager being represented by an incompetent duty lawyer - this man could afford to pay for the best.

tritium

B0jangles wrote: »

Have you read the thread? I'm not seeing a lot of hatred for convicted rapist Ched Evans.

Funny I'm seeing quite a bit, tempered occasionally by the knowledge that he's served a jail sentence for his crime.


Using this thread as an example of rape culture is ridiculous tbh

tritium

eviltwin wrote: »

If he successfully overturns his conviction do you think the woman should go to jail?

That would be daft (as I think you intended the point to be). The nature of much alleged sexual crime is that both parties may have a very different ides of what happened. Especially where both have been drinking heavily. To charge someone in these circumstances with false reporting would be as unfair to real victims if false claims as flase claimants are to real rape victims.

Mrsmum

Tbh I think we should be brutally hammering home a few real facts of life to young men and women and one brutal fact of life is that actions have consequences. So to young girls we should say yes technically you are entitled to be as drunk as you like but remember that then can result in someone else taking advantage because quite frankly they don't give a damn about you and your whole life can be ruined while you were too drunk to protect yourself. And young men need to realise that if you put yourself in a situation where to an unbiased jury you clearly are happy to have sex with a rag doll then wise up because there may be reprecussions when the rag doll wakes up. No point in boo hooing about it when you life is ruined afterwards. You may be able to convince yourself and your nearest and dearest that rape, as in stranger jumping out of the bushes, wasn't the intention but at the very least when you turn up at a hotel ready to have sex with a girl that you have never met or spoken one word to, a girl that your friend has just finished having sex with, a girl who is totally drunk and out of it, then in my book you can man up to the consequences also because if you put yourself in that he said she said situation then as many people will believe her as you.

Even if he was found not guilty, mud would stick. That's just life.

But he was found guilty. End of story.

BrokenHero

Gelatomela wrote: »

Rapists are abhorred worse than murderers, "rape culture" is ridiculous.

Indeed.

Sure look at what happened to John Leslie ffs. Someone sort of hints in a book that they might have not, perhaps, maybe, given consent to him when they where going out once and the guy hasn't worked since. A guy that was at the height of his career.

And yet some would have us believe that society doesn't take date rape seriously. Yeah right.

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2258348/John-Leslie-reveals-attack-claims-destroyed-life-left-recluse.html