ETB Unwilling to pay for work done

superdude268

Hi guys, first time poster here! I am in a bit of bother with my ETB. Basically, my teaching council registration only went through last week. I started covering a maternity post on the 25th of August. My ETB are now saying I will only be paid from last week onwards as that is when I was registered and they cannot pay me for hours worked before that. The post I am covering is 22.5 hrs so as you can imagine I am a little bit stressed as that will be the guts of €3,500 I won't get! Any help/tips would be greatly appreciated. I am also a NQT so that is why I was not registered before this point.

smallgarden

How long did your registration take if you don't mind me asking
I'd give post primary payroll a ring. I've always found them helpful. Also if you haven't joined a union now would be a good time.
http://www.education.ie/en/The-Department/Management-Organisation/Payroll-Division.html

superdude268

Thanks for the reply, it took a few weeks. I'll admit I was late in submitting my registration as I simply did not have €90 to pay for it. I will give the post primary payroll a call tomorrow thank you. I'm not a member of a union no, I'll have to sort that out tomorrow too and see would one of them be able to give me any help.

smallgarden

Technically if you were not registered then they can't pay you for the work you did retrospectively.They should have told you that you that they couldn't pay you. I'm not sure if they're able to employ someone who isn't registered so that's their responsibility too.But also its your responsibility to know you need to be registered to get paid. It's a strange situation but contact payroll and see what they say.

km79

superdude268 wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, it took a few weeks. I'll admit I was late in submitting my registration as I simply did not have €90 to pay for it. I will give the post primary payroll a call tomorrow thank you. I'm not a member of a union no, I'll have to sort that out tomorrow too and see would one of them be able to give me any help.

when did you start the registration process I.e submit the form initially

smallgarden

This might be relevant too
http://www.education.ie/en/The-Education-System/Legislation/SI-32-of-2014-Education-Act-1998-Unregistered-Persons-Regulations-2014.pdf

http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/Requirement-For-Teachers-In-Recognised-Schools-To-Register-With-The-Teaching-Council.pdf
This is where they're getting the info from Id say unless there's an updated circular

superdude268

Id say about 3 weeks ago. I had my Garda vetting however since last year, but was told that was out of date (even though it wasnt 12 months old) and I would have to submit a new one. That held up the process also. I appreciate the replies and I know a significant portion of the blame lies with myself. On my contracts however it did say all was required was evidence that I had begun the process of registering so realistically it should just have said teaching council number required here, do not apply otherwise?

mirrorwall14

smallgarden wrote: »

This might be relevant too
http://www.education.ie/en/The-Education-System/Legislation/SI-32-of-2014-Education-Act-1998-Unregistered-Persons-Regulations-2014.pdf

http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/Requirement-For-Teachers-In-Recognised-Schools-To-Register-With-The-Teaching-Council.pdf
This is where they're getting the info from Id say unless there's an updated circular

I would imagine 4.2 (c) of the second is what's applying here. That reads very straighforward as they are simply not allowed to pay you. In addition later on it says that there is no discretion in individual cases allowed

The whole circular also says from date of registration, not date of application and specifically references the length of time Garda getting can take. You might be in trouble here OP

superdude268

I'm in a bit of shock I won't lie. Surely the ETB should not have employed me without all documentation? Is that a valid argument?

smallgarden

Possibly.Also general employment law would come into play as well. I'd check with the department asap, see what they say and take it from there. It's certainly not black and white.

mirrorwall14

Have you your contract? Is there a clause in it saying you need to be up to date with registration? If they haven't updated them to say that you must be registered then maybe you might have a leg to stand on. Are you in a union? If not you need to join or get an employment solicitor involved

superdude268

I am going to contact the department first thing in the morning and see what they say. I don't have my contract no. Someone mentioned in the staffroom today they didn't get their contracts back until 3 months after they'd submitted them! Definitely though as I said the contract did not explicitly state I needed to be fully registered. It wasn't like I was trying to pull a fast one either. I am fully qualified with a masters degree and my naivety as a NQT is what let me down.

evolving_doors

contract is with the school though isnt it? Therefore if the school are employing you and the contract says something like "payment will be in line with dept. pay " then you should have reasonable expectations to receive this pay, if not from dept then it should fall back to the school to stump up.

But if it refers to dept. 'conditions' or regulations then that would imply registration.. I.e. "payment will be in line with dep. regulations".

In a way though, the school should have required you to be registered either way... otherwise they should have known you wouldnt be paid! Did the school ask you for your teaching council number?

Thats my reading of it though and I aint no legal.. get a solicitor asap as it seems the dept. are giving you the runaround (union solicitor preferably!)... failing not being in a union, they might let you join up if the 'cheque is in the post'... failing that and you are stuck for cash try a no-win-no-fee employment solicitor... its a long shot but ive heard they're out there!

superdude268

The contract is with the ETB (Education Training Board formerly the V.E.C.). I will request a copy of my contract tomorrow also and see for definite what it states. The school said that it was the responsibility of the E.T.B. to ensure I was registered as that is the whole point of their existence, i.e. to centralise the applications and employment processes and all things associated with that. The school did not ask me for my teaching council number.
I do appreciate everyones help here. I'll try the union way first as I'm sure their familiarity in the area might be of more use to me. The no-win-no-fee option might not be the worst idea either!

mirrorwall14

Armelodie wrote: »

contract is with the school though isnt it? Therefore if the school are employing you and the contract says something like "payment will be in line with dept. pay " then you should have reasonable expectations to receive this pay, if not from dept then it should fall back to the school to stump up.

But if it refers to dept. 'conditions' or regulations then that would imply registration.. I.e. "payment will be in line with dep. regulations".

In a way though, the school should have required you to be registered either way... otherwise they should have known you wouldnt be paid! Did the school ask you for your teaching council number?

Thats my reading of it though and I aint no legal.. get a solicitor asap as it seems the dept. are giving you the runaround (union solicitor preferably!)... failing not being in a union, they might let you join up if the 'cheque is in the post'... failing that and you are stuck for cash try a no-win-no-fee employment solicitor... its a long shot but ive heard they're out there!

In an ETB the contracts come through head office not the school. I really can't see this being an easy win though as its been very well publicised. I'm six years qualified and NUIM were very very clear on the warnings about registration and that was quite a few years before it became law. Not that that helps the OP but three weeks ago to submit registration was the start of October which is 5 weeks where the OP hadn't even started applying. I imagine it will be easier to fight for the last three weeks pay than the five before that.

OP when did you sit the interview?

superdude268

I sat the interview on the 22nd of August. All relative points mirrorwall. My excuse if you could call it that was that I was completing my masters thesis up until the middle of August so did not have time/money to begin registering with the teaching council. As you can imagine also I have absolutely no money having just completed said masters so to stump up another €100 for registration was not my first prerogative. I'm not sure I agree with you about it being very well publicised. None of the staff in my school, both newly qualified and more senior were aware that was the case.

km79

I can't see a case like this standong up in law
they employed you whilst knowing you were not registered but would be
And now won't pay
I'm sorry when I think about that its so wrong .
The teaching council seem do nothing for teachers

mirrorwall14

Its an interesting one alright. The reality is that the OP shouldn't have been let into the classroom in the first place, similar to the way a Doc or nurse is not allowed to practise without registration. However they were let teach for this long without the registration and they were hired without the registration!

In addition according to the circular they should not have been allowed to be hired over someone who had registration which is another grey area here. It is very likely that someone else at those interviews did have the registration and thus should have been hired in place of the OP.

This is one I'd definitely like to see as it may well become more common in future years. I'd imagine if you join the union asap OP they may end up taking a case over it.

Also just on rereading your OP, you should not be teaching more than 22hrs!

aunt aggie

I'm surprised this has been allowed to happen. I have recently been told that my ETB checks the registration status of every staff member before paying wages every month. So if anyone lets their registration lapse they are in trouble.

Did the ETB initially think your wages could be backdated? I'm surprised they didnt encourage you to apply as soon as you got the job!!

smallgarden

Did you ring payroll?

rainbowtrout

superdude268 wrote: »

I sat the interview on the 22nd of August. All relative points mirrorwall. My excuse if you could call it that was that I was completing my masters thesis up until the middle of August so did not have time/money to begin registering with the teaching council. As you can imagine also I have absolutely no money having just completed said masters so to stump up another €100 for registration was not my first prerogative. I'm not sure I agree with you about it being very well publicised. None of the staff in my school, both newly qualified and more senior were aware that was the case.

While I accept you were broke, that's not the ETB's problem.

I'd also agree with mirrorwall, it has been well publicised. That and many of the dip students who have posted on this board over the last year or two have spoken about it. Job applications look for Teaching Council registrations. It's been discussed on here for a number of years, the fact that teachers will have to be registered in order to be paid. On that front I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

Senior teachers might not be aware of it, because it's not something they have to do, registration with the teaching council isn't something that affects them on a a day to day basis.

It's also not crystal clear from the ETB side. Were you given a contract? Were there conditions written into the job offer or contract: i.e. job is offered on condition that applicant is fully registered with teaching council? Was the job offered on the basis that your registration was in process?

Interviewing on Aug 22 and not putting in your application until October doesn't leave you in a very strong position in my opinion.

evolving_doors

Thats pretty much the long and short of it as Rainbowtrout said..
only thing you can base a claim on is the contract you were under.. (i would presume).

Get a copy ASAP OP , (tell em its for an urgent bank loan as your car is acting up.. if you say its for a potential legal case who knows what journey that contract will go on!).

Mardy Bum

You generally have to tick boxes on the contract stating you are fully registered and the documents have to be sent to the department fully completed otherwise they are sent back to the school.

fall

Please join the union asap. If you receive independent advice from a solicitor the union won't get involved so be careful how you go about this. Is it CDETB? If so join the TUI as they have negotiating rights with them and the ASTI don't.

superdude268

I put my hands up and admit I messed up pretty badly and am about to learn a very expensive mistake. Thanks for all the replies they were all appreciated! I'll just try and move on from this now.

smallgarden

superdude268 wrote: »

I put my hands up and admit I messed up pretty badly and am about to learn a very expensive mistake. Thanks for all the replies they were all appreciated! I'll just try and move on from this now.

Did you ring the department? What did they say?

superdude268

i was talking to a girl but to be honest i don't think she knew herself. she said i should be at least entitled to the unqualified rate and if i was employed by the department that is what i would be entitled to. but because i am employed by the etb, the dept can do nothing for me.

CraftySue

I would imagine they would have to pay the unqualified rate as well. Keep onto hr, and payroll, and ask them to confirm everything they say in writing.

superdude268

At this stage I am afraid my contract might be terminated because I was not registered before I got the job so I'm afraid now to push too hard for anything like that. I'm waiting for my union guy to call me back and see what he says.

kippy

Itd be interesting to see what would happen if this type of thing were legally challenged. You are a qualified teacher and did the work. Outside of that if you do not get paid for the work you were contracted to do, teaching council or not, then I suspect the law would be on your side.
outside of the fact that the teaching council is a waste of 90 quid a year the stipulation that you be a member of it before payment should be challenged in general.

superdude268

If I were in any sort of position at all to challenge this I would. But the debt I incurred for doing a masters, and living expenses for the last 2 months have myself and my parents completely wiped out. You can imagine the team of solicitors either the ETB or the Teaching Council would have in place also.

smallgarden

I'd agree with crafty Sue and try to get something in writing from the department. My understanding is that the money is coming from the department and the etb should be getting the money to cover the maternity leave cover from them. If in this situation the department would be willing to pay you then really the etb should too. Otherwise where is the money they're getting for the maternity cover going? Also employment law should come into play. The person in the etb payroll is probably reading section 31 which does say they can't pay you so is only enforcing that information. I'd say if you got a letter from the department explaining that you should be untitled to the unqualified rate the etb should pay you

If payroll can't help you try contacting the contact for section30 section30_queries@education.gov.ie and section30@teachingcouncil.ie Id exhaust these before going down solicitor and union route

kippy

superdude268 wrote: »

If I were in any sort of position at all to challenge this I would. But the debt I incurred for doing a masters, and living expenses for the last 2 months have myself and my parents completely wiped out. You can imagine the team of solicitors either the ETB or the Teaching Council would have in place also.

This is where the union should come in. However I believe the initial concept of a teaching council was favoured by the unions. I really cant believd however that members allowed the council go ahead as a annual cash cow.

superdude268

smallgarden wrote: »

I'd agree with crafty Sue and try to get something in writing from the department. My understanding is that the money is coming from the department and the etb should be getting the money to cover the maternity leave cover from them. If in this situation the department would be willing to pay you then really the etb should too. Otherwise where is the money they're getting for the maternity cover going? Also employment law should come into play. The person in the etb payroll is probably reading section 31 which does say they can't pay you so is only enforcing that information. I'd say if you got a letter from the department explaining that you should be untitled to the unqualified rate the etb should pay you

Very good point made there. My only concern here is that the girl I was talking to on the phone may not be in a position to put that in writing. If however she did, it would certainly hold substantial weight.

happywithlife

You did the work and I cannot believe you should go completely unpaid for it. Yes you should have been registered but then somebody from their HR should have called a halt BEFORE you started teaching. Errors on both sides here. I can't believe you wouldn't get the unqualified rate. Don't normal employment laws still apply? You completed the work with a reasonable expectation of payment

smallgarden

If she's not able Id ask her to put you in contact with someone who can, added in emails of people who deal with section 30 in above post. They're at end of circular I posted before. Emails are handy as they're in writing as well

superdude268

Just e-mailing those addresses now thank you.

superdude268

I rang the Teaching Council earlier also but they said there was absolutely nothing they could do as they are completely separate from pay and hr related issues.

spurious

Unlike the Teaching Council, the ETBs occasionally live in the real world. I wouldn't worry about any 'teams of solicitors' on the ETB's part.

You should at least be able to get the unqualified rate, though if it were me, I'd be pushing for the qualified rate. The TC cried wolf for years about not paying people who were not registered. There are plenty of cases for precedent of people who were not registered and were paid.

Get a name of someone sensible in payroll (ask older teachers, there is always one sensible head in any payroll department) and speak directly to them. Meanwhile get the union to bring your case up as a personal case at Stage 3 (their regular monthly meeting with the officers of the ETB) - there is no need for any nonsense about this.

TheDriver

You should not have been employed until proof of at least pending registration was produced in writing. In my ETB, we don't even interview people unless current registration is produced or receipt of pending application. Hence you should have some leeway with the etb

NapoleonInRags

Surely the position here is that the ETB are not entitled to claim funding for an unregistered teacher, rather than you not being entitled to be paid for work you carried out in good faith.

In other words the ETB should be out of pocket on this, not you.

km79

superdude268 wrote: »

I rang the Teaching Council earlier also but they said there was absolutely nothing they could do as they are completely separate from pay and hr related issues.

They are absolutely USELESS
Apart from taking money from TEACHERS what do the TEACHING council do for us?
Best of luck anyway OP
At worst you should be getting the unqualified rate. Do not be afraid to push for the money. You did the work. You must get paid

kippy

km79 wrote: »

They are absolutely USELESS
Apart from taking money from TEACHERS what do the TEACHING council do for us?
Best of luck anyway OP
At worst you should be getting the unqualified rate. Do not be afraid to push for the money. You did the work. You must get paid

The things they are supposed to do:
1. Verify your educational credentials and assure whoever employs you that you those credentials allow you to work in "whatever" area.
2. Verify your Garda vetting status.
At a cost of €90 initially and I believe €90 a year after that.
The theory is a good thing as it centralises that work however why you pay 90 quid a year after they first "verify" you, is one of the biggest cons going.

bearhugs

I think it's gone down to €65 a year now, if I remember correctly. Best of luck OP, awful situation to be in.

aunt aggie

kippy wrote: »

The things they are supposed to do:
1. Verify your educational credentials and assure whoever employs you that you those credentials allow you to work in "whatever" area.
2. Verify your Garda vetting status.
At a cost of €90 initially and I believe €90 a year after that.
The theory is a good thing as it centralises that work however why you pay 90 quid a year after they first "verify" you, is one of the biggest cons going.

i refuse to accept the teaching council have anything to do with the vetting process. I send my form to a policeman in Athlone who then forwards the garda vetting cert to me and/or my employer. Absolutely nothing to do with the TC. I've been registered with TC for over four years and they only garda vetted me once!! All other vetting has been through my employers.

I do know that the TC are responsible for writing the Professional Guidelines for teaching and could soon have the power to remove teachers from the register if a complaint is brought against them and upheld by the TC.

Its all ahead of us lads!

mtoutlemonde

aunt aggie wrote: »

i refuse to accept the teaching council have anything to do with the vetting process.

Amazing how this happened to be in the news today
http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/1022/653979-teachers-garda-vetting/

Only new teachers and those moving schools are currently required to obtain garda clearance, which is administered by the Teaching Council.

I suppose they have to say they do it to justify the fees we pay them!

aunt aggie wrote: »

I've been registered with TC for over four years and they only garda vetted me once!!

+1 I have only been vetted once and have been in a lot of schools.

aunt aggie wrote: »

I send my form to a policeman in Athlone who then forwards the garda vetting cert to me and/or my employer. Absolutely nothing to do with the TC.

Have you got a vetting certificate from the Teaching Council?

f3232

rainbowtrout wrote: »

While I accept you were broke, that's not the ETB's problem.

I'd also agree with mirrorwall, it has been well publicised. That and many of the dip students who have posted on this board over the last year or two have spoken about it. Job applications look for Teaching Council registrations. It's been discussed on here for a number of years, the fact that teachers will have to be registered in order to be paid. On that front I don't think you have a leg to stand on.

Senior teachers might not be aware of it, because it's not something they have to do, registration with the teaching council isn't something that affects them on a a day to day basis.

It's also not crystal clear from the ETB side. Were you given a contract? Were there conditions written into the job offer or contract: i.e. job is offered on condition that applicant is fully registered with teaching council? Was the job offered on the basis that your registration was in process?

Interviewing on Aug 22 and not putting in your application until October doesn't leave you in a very strong position in my opinion.

There is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. This person was doing I expect a fair days work during their time so far. The ETB has a moral responsibility to get this sorted for the OP.

You cant just employ someone for 3 weeks and then tell them sorry, your not getting paid and then say sorry we really should not have even employed you you cant get paid?? I mean i know we live in a banana republic but that's having a laugh.

Also I suggest getting the union involved

aunt aggie

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

+1 I have only been vetted once and have been in a lot of schools.
Have you got a vetting certificate from the Teaching Council?

I have been vetted by new schools but that doesn't involve the TC. Schools and ETBs require garda vetting upon hiring new teachers for child protection issues. The TC have no input on this and as far as I know schools are not required to forward this information to the TC.

The garda vetting form is universal to all professions, whether you're a teacher, coaching GAA or involved in voluntary work with children.

smallgarden

aunt aggie wrote: »

I have been vetted by new schools but that doesn't involve the TC. Schools and ETBs require garda vetting upon hiring new teachers for child protection issues. The TC have no input on this and as far as I know schools are not required to forward this information to the TC.

The garda vetting form is universal to all professions, whether you're a teacher, coaching GAA or involved in voluntary work with children.

You have to get vetting done through the teaching council now on their form and you send it to them rather than the gardai.

seavill

aunt aggie wrote: »

I have been vetted by new schools but that doesn't involve the TC. Schools and ETBs require garda vetting upon hiring new teachers for child protection issues. The TC have no input on this and as far as I know schools are not required to forward this information to the TC.

The garda vetting form is universal to all professions, whether you're a teacher, coaching GAA or involved in voluntary work with children.

The vetting form is universal but you have to get separate vetting done for each organisation eg one for teaching one for FAI one for gaa etc

TheBody

The whole system stinks. There are a few people subbing in my wife's ETB school. None of them with teaching qualifications and all getting paid.