Another Hour Record Attempt upcoming

eeeee

pelevin wrote: »

No, ultimately my opinion is that when we talk about the greatest cyclists of all time, it's more or less a given that the conversation is about road cycling. Maybe there's mountain bikers & cyclo-cross riders whose achievements comparatively dwarf all but Merckx from road-cycling but tellingly no one is mentioning their names. I presume a conversation about the greatest tennis players of all time doesn't get altered to "being elite in an array of fields is what is required" and so someone who has also done very well in squash or badminton trumps a Federer or whoever who solely won in the tennis field.

You have been given two names of track stars already-Bauget and Pervis. I believe a lad called Chris Hoy was handy too, and Jason Kenny. Anna Meares is in my opinion the best track cyclist of all time. The list can go on and on and on, but track is not in the public consciousness as much due to there being more money in the road, plain and simple.

No modern rider can ever beat palmares like Merckx or Indurain or Hainault as racing has changed completely. A GT rider now is not going to win Paris Roubaix etc. Even in the last ten years it has become so specialised. so what it takes to be great has changed completely. Arguably you cannot compare the old days to now, so the definition of what it takes to be great has changed.

IMO to reach the top in more than one discipline (discipline NOT sport, the badminton, squash analogy doesn't carry) such as Marianne Vos has, or Pauline ferrand Prevost is incredible. Consider what it takes to win a world championship in one discipline, the skills and talent required, then imagine doing that in two or even three disciplines. That is exceptional IMO. Track, mtb, cyclocross are not lesser challenges or less harder or valid than road. Because they get less air time does not make them less of a challenge.

ETA I am not a Wiggins fan, I don't like his character, but he is up there, not the greatest, or top 5, but up there given his achievements in my opinion.

eeeee

Also do you really think the skills acquired in another discipline don't matter in another one? There's no doubt former mtb ers bike handling has helped their road careers, and former trackies power and smooth pedalling style helps them be efficient.

Look up the TDF stage 5 last year, the cobble stage, to See what cyclocross can do for your chances on the road.

nak

mcgratheoin wrote: »

Is there the same variety (as road) in cyclocross or MTB though? Are there riders who can challenge in downhill and x-country and enduro in MTB? (genuine question, I don't know enough about it to make a statement).

No, people have moved from DH to Enduro and vice versa, but XC is totally different, not as technical (even though it seems incredibly technical to a newbie coming from a road background - i.e. me) and requires a different type of fitness.

Good few riders doing well in the road scene from XC and cyclocross - Zdenek Stybar would be a good example of that and was last year's cyclocross world champion.

mcgratheoin

gadetra wrote: »

A GT rider now is not going to win Paris Roubaix etc.

Valverde? Purito is certainly capable of winning a GT as well.

I don't think it's fully the specialisation that is the issue with why GT riders don't win the monuments any more. There are very few GT contenders out there at all, and to maximise their value, they need to train specifically for the GTs. I reckon Cadel Evans (as an example) could have challenged for a few had he not been focused completely on the stage races (I think he may have got a few top tens as is)

Completely agree that Vos is streets ahead in terms of all-round dominance and ability at the moment.

As a nice little exercise, can those in the know list their greatest track cyclist, MTB cyclist and cyclocross rider with the appropriate palmares and we can try to slot them in with the roadies and the crossover guys. Men and women welcome, I suspect the women's ranks should be a bit easier as there are more riders who rare multi-disciplinary (probably due to lack of money & investment in women's sport but that's another topic.)

dave_o_brien

pelevin wrote: »

No, ultimately my opinion is that when we talk about the greatest cyclists of all time, it's more or less a given that the conversation is about road cycling.

Oh right, so this is greatest ROAD cyclists of all time. Fair enough. Great topic of conversation to be had in a thread about the hour record. Y'know, an hour on the tracks and all that... Shall we leave it there?

pelevin wrote: »

Maybe there's mountain bikers & cyclo-cross riders whose achievements comparatively dwarf all but Merckx from road-cycling but tellingly no one is mentioning their names.

No. No we shall not leave it there... So people like Sven Nys, John Tomac, Brian Lopes, etc., all have claims to be amongst the greatest bike racers ever, but they didn't win Roubaix, so who cares, right?!

pelevin wrote: »

I presume a conversation about the greatest tennis players of all time doesn't get altered to "being elite in an array of fields is what is required" and so someone who has also done very well in squash or badminton trumps a Federer or whoever who solely won in the tennis field.

Riiight... But conventionally, cycling is thought of as a single sport with disciplines under the one umbrella. Racket sports are not thought of as the same sport, so I fail to see your point here.

I think most people understand what you're saying, and I don't actually disagree with you. To be considered one of the great road cyclists, one must win a lot on the road. What this argument is saying is that to be considered one of the great cyclists, one must win a lot across a range of disciplines. I just happen to think track is interesting, and so think your narrow definition of what constitutes greatness is, well, narrow.

mcgratheoin

dave_o_brien wrote: »

What this argument is saying is that to be considered one of the great cyclists, one must win a lot across a range of disciplines.

Interesting premise - do you think it's possible to have a "who is the greatest conversation" in the modern context, given the lack of (major) crossover between the varying forms of cycling. If there were to be a list of qualifications to get onto the shortlist, then what would they be?

One other question, given the vast discrepancy in monetary rewards between the varying forms of cycling, is it fair to assume that the majority (not all) of the talent gravitates towards the more lucrative roadie end of the spectrum, and if so, the competition on the road may be tougher or deeper?

mark kiernan

vos
hands down the best rider ,nobody comes close
road track cross mtb id say if you gave her a bmx shed have a go at that as well

manafana

nak wrote: »

Marianne Vos imo is the most complete cyclist at the moment - world titles in track, road, cyclocross and now competing in XC mountain biking.

Bradley Wiggins has had a very impressive career, the majority of pro riders retire without achieving a smidgeon of what he has. Terrible at cyclocross though

I do agree with the rest of your post, you can't compare and Merckx wouldn't be able to win all those races in the present day.

I see your Marianne Vos and raise you the current world road race champion Pauline Ferrand-Prevot at 23 she is already duel world champ in road and cyclecross and is national champion in the tt and mtb as well as road and cyclecross.

Harrybelafonte

manafana wrote: »

I see your Marianne Vos and raise you the current world road race champion Pauline Ferrand-Prevot at 23 she is already duel world champ in road and cyclecross and is national champion in the tt and mtb as well as road and cyclecross.

She was already mentioned by Nak and Dave O'Brien above as PFP

Fellow trackies... there's no point trying to bring some roadie fans around to the idea of what makes track racing a great sport. Leave them to their myopia. Sport for many is something they watch, not something they participate in.

Harrybelafonte

smcclaw

^^

Wow!

Lusk_Doyle

Goose81 wrote: »

As a very casual fan of cycling can someone explain why wiggins only won one Tour de France and didn't seem too competitive much after ? Was it a particularly weak year or was he too old for more or another reason?

That one had approx 100kms of individual tts. Set up for him to win big mig style.

Leroy42

^^The Vos picture. Is that a still from one of those Hoarders programs on Discovery. She doesn't even have a proper chair to sit on. We get it, you won a few races.

I just threw my MB200 medal in the drawer when I got home. Seriously, she needs to get over it.

nak

Leroy42 wrote: »

^^The Vos picture. Is that a still from one of those Hoarders programs on Discovery. She doesn't even have a proper chair to sit on. We get it, you won a few races.

I just threw my MB200 medal in the drawer when I got home. Seriously, she needs to get over it.

It's her Dad's garage. Just greedy winning all those races.

Leads a quiet life, had dinner in a hostel in Paris with a few of us after winning La Course instead of attending the TdF parties. Her male counterparts wouldn't be able to do that and be left alone.

buffalo

eeeee

Leroy42 wrote: »

^^The Vos picture. Is that a still from one of those Hoarders programs on Discovery. She doesn't even have a proper chair to sit on. We get it, you won a few races.

I just threw my MB200 medal in the drawer when I got home. Seriously, she needs to get over it.

If I won a medal of any kind of colour I would tattoo it to my forehead and weld it to my face forever! Serious kudos to the lady, no cyclist in any category or gender has achieved as much as she has across so many disciplines. Talk about a complete cyclist!

Pauline Ferrand Prevost isn't too far behind, and still so young.

Beasty

nak wrote: »

Are there many options for an indoor track at altitude?

3 in Mexico at between 1,500m and 2,300m (Mexico City - probably explains why Merckx went there)

ROK ON

Beasty wrote: »

3 in Mexico at between 1,500m and 2,300m (Mexico City - probably explains why Merckx went there)

Wiggo has welcomed people to have a go at his record. He has said that he would like to see athletes attack the record at sea level and I do think that he has a point. It would be good to set comparable benchmarks in as much as that can be done.
If Martin could work in track skills and positioning he could put this away-but the lack of those skills on his part probably favour someone like Dowsett over time.

I hate track racing but I watched yesterday and was mesmerised by it. The idea of one man and a bike seemed so pure in a way. It was brutal. Delighted he got it but also please that it's not unreachable. It says a huge amount about his ability that he put some much distance into Dowsett when the conditions did not suit the attempt.

He is a remarkable cyclists. One of the best of all time- no idea. One of the best of the last twenty years - undoubtedly in my mind.

kumate_champ07

the best track cyclist of all time is probably Koichi Nakano, 10 times match sprint world champion, current coach of Japanese national sprint team

Harrybelafonte

ROK ON wrote: »

Wiggo has welcomed people to have a go at his record. He has said that he would like to see athletes attack the record at sea level and I do think that he has a point. It would be good to set comparable benchmarks in as much as that can be done.
If Martin could work in track skills and positioning he could put this away-but the lack of those skills on his part probably favour someone like Dowsett over time.

I hate track racing but I watched yesterday and was mesmerised by it. The idea of one man and a bike seemed so pure in a way. It was brutal. Delighted he got it but also please that it's not unreachable. It says a huge amount about his ability that he put some much distance into Dowsett when the conditions did not suit the attempt.

He is a remarkable cyclists. One of the best of all time- no idea. One of the best of the last twenty years - undoubtedly in my mind.

You hate track cycling? Really? It offends you somehow.

manafana

ROK ON wrote: »

Wiggo has welcomed people to have a go at his record. He has said that he would like to see athletes attack the record at sea level and I do think that he has a point. It would be good to set comparable benchmarks in as much as that can be done.
If Martin could work in track skills and positioning he could put this away-but the lack of those skills on his part probably favour someone like Dowsett over time.

I hate track racing but I watched yesterday and was mesmerised by it. The idea of one man and a bike seemed so pure in a way. It was brutal. Delighted he got it but also please that it's not unreachable. It says a huge amount about his ability that he put some much distance into Dowsett when the conditions did not suit the attempt.

He is a remarkable cyclists. One of the best of all time- no idea. One of the best of the last twenty years - undoubtedly in my mind.

The hour record when presented well with cut aways to other information and good timing is very interesting.

Track cycling is ok the tactics are good but there are less ways of winning race and of course less different type of routes, there only advantage is they can charge in. Really road racing has more money because its not more popular not the other way round.

eeeee

manafana wrote: »

The hour record when presented well with cut aways to other information and good timing is very interesting.

Track cycling is ok the tactics are good but there are less ways of winning race and of course less different type of routes, there only advantage is they can charge in. Really road racing has more money because its not more popular not the other way round.

There are plenty of ways to win a track race, breakaways stay away on track too! And horseracing hasn't suffered from racing happening in an oval.
Track is a lot more spectator friendly, you can see everything happening in a race backside, It's easier to follow. Also you are not allowed (bar the Madison) to 'collude' so you don't have teams controlling things or protecting riders. It's a lot purer, rider v rider not team v team. And it's faster. It's not the quality of racing that sees it less commercially popular than road!

But if chateau's and big business are your thing road is the way to go:P...but It is perfectly legal to like both

ROK ON

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

You hate track cycling? Really? It offends you somehow.

Yes I do not enjoy watching it. Hate is a strong word but in this context I have used to attempt to highlight while i dislike watching track cycling (as I people racing other people) I found the hour dramatic.
Nothing wrong with any sport, but I dislike watching many sports - track cycling one of them.
Maybe hate is a poor choice to convey dislike?:rolleyes:

dastardly00

This sounds like a bit of sour grapes to me.

From cyclingnews:

The coach of former UCI Hour Record holder Alex Dowsett, Steve Collins, has spoken out against Bradley Wiggins’ recent record breaking attempt, saying that it was done illegally.

"For attempts like that it should all be production available so you can buy it off the shelf. You can't get 3D-printed handlebars moulded to your own arms to make it easier for your own attempt."

Darkglasses

dastardly00 wrote: »

This sounds like a bit of sour grapes to me.

From cyclingnews:

Very sour. Hope the quotes are out of context or something, that's a silly attitude to have for a coach.

nak

Darkglasses wrote: »

Very sour. Hope the quotes are out of context or something, that's a silly attitude to have for a coach.

Hopefully seeing as you can't just pop down the local bike shop and buy all of Dowsett's equipment/clothing either.

manafana

dastardly00 wrote: »

This sounds like a bit of sour grapes to me.

From cyclingnews:

steve collins wasn't his coach for the attempt he was like an assistant. Think point on the bars was that they were on off custom piece, all pieces are meant to be produced to be commercially available, so normally make 4 of them one for race one for spare one for uci and one to sell. Silly remark all same

Harrybelafonte

manafana wrote: »

steve collins wasn't his coach for the attempt he was like an assistant. Think point on the bars was that they were on off custom piece, all pieces are meant to be produced to be commercially available, so normally make 4 of them one for race one for spare one for uci and one to sell. Silly remark all same

So he's right? Or he isn't?

CramCycle

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

So he's right? Or he isn't?

If it's a 3d print Wiggins could easily put the file up for sale so as to be technically commercially available.

niceonetom

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

So he's right? Or he isn't?

He's not wrong.

The record became a technological battle ground once before and it killed it. I think the UCI did (uncharacteristically) well in resurrecting the hour, it'd be a shame to let it get bogged down in bickering about equipment, and maybe the best way to avoid that would be to police those areas where bespoke and off-the-shelf only very slightly overlap i.e. the secret-squirrels of Team GB etc.

FWIW I also think the UCI dropped the ball by not including any stipulations about altitude. If Dowset (or whoever really) beats this distance but does so at Aguas Calientes we could well be back to the problem of inferior human efforts yielding superior results and that's best avoided if we want the record to be meaningful across generations.