Performance - Related Pay???

smcgiff

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

But how do you evaluate a teacher when the child is on the ASD spectrum? Severe dyslexia? Dyspraxia? We had a WSE (whole school inspection) last year and the SEN team got great praise . The whole thing was a tick the box exercise, though.

I'm not sure what the value of a WSE is. There's a couple of week's advance notice, the principal has a heart attack and keeps everyone back for a meeting to ensure everyone gets their paperwork up to date and has excellent lesson plans prepared for the day in question.

I imagine SEN pupils will improve over the years of education. I think it should be possible to document that.

For anyone that thinks the teaching profession is not assessable, can they tell me any other job that cannot be assessed?

evolving_doors

smcgiff wrote: »

I'm not sure what the value of a WSE is. There's a couple of week's advance notice, the principal has a heart attack and keeps everyone back for a meeting to ensure everyone gets their paperwork up to date and has excellent lesson plans prepared for the day in question.

I imagine SEN pupils will improve over the years of education. I think it should be possible to document that.

For anyone that thinks the teaching profession is not assessable, can they tell me any other job that cannot be assessed?

You have to draw a distinction between Job and Professions in the public service though...

Dentists, Doctors, Nurses, social workers... how is their performance assessed?

For anyone that thinks the teaching profession is assessable, could you state exactly how it can be done...

smcgiff wrote: »

1. What Continuous professional education has the teacher undertaken?

Could you suggest how this could be linked to how a teacher performs in their classroom. Now I'm not saying for a moment that theory doesn't inform practice but you might be quite surprised to note that most of the teachers I know have undertaken further studies to masters level (of their own volition) whilst in the job (about 85% of our staff have at least a masters degree). The CPD proposed by the TC is ..what.. 5 days!!! You can be guaranteed that if CPD is linked to performance related pay it'll be a tokenistic 5 days box ticking exercise.

smcgiff wrote: »

2. How many sick days has the teacher taken in the last year.

Could you provide a link to this DES self certified circular... as you may be aware there are many circulars.

smcgiff wrote: »

3. How has their manager assessed their work - the principal in this case. Is this a shocking thought? A lot of other employees are graded by their managers.

Leaving aside the problems associated with measuring 'improvements in grades' (see posts #10 #11 #19 #27 #32 if you'd care to take issue with those)... how would you propose that the manager assess their work?
Classroom observations! Our principal would have well over 30 classes to go to, just for one observation.. do they get a complete picture of a teachers abilities from 1 observation?).

Indeed a lot of other employees are graded by their managers... could you possibly outline one example that could be applied to education?

Just because something is difficult, does it mean that a 'solution' needs to be sought. Why is there a great need to measure everything that a teacher does. It's not bloody rocket science.. if you want improvements in education the reduce the class sizes... no matter how Mr Chips you are you can;t just pack em in and expect 'good performance'.

smcgiff

Armelodie wrote: »

You have to draw a distinction between Job and Professions in the public service though...

Dentists, Doctors, Nurses, social workers... how is their performance assessed?

Their case files are peer reviewed. Also, guess what happens when a complaint against a doctor or nurse is made. The words fine tooth comb come to mind.

Armelodie wrote: »

For anyone that thinks the teaching profession is assessable, could you state exactly how it can be done...

I've listed 4, some of which you've discussed below.

Armelodie wrote: »

Could you suggest how this could be linked to how a teacher performs in their classroom. Now I'm not saying for a moment that theory doesn't inform practice but you might be quite surprised to note that most of the teachers I know have undertaken further studies to masters level (of their own volition) whilst in the job (about 85% of our staff have at least a masters degree). The CPD proposed by the TC is ..what.. 5 days!!! You can be guaranteed that if CPD is linked to performance related pay it'll be a tokenistic 5 days box ticking exercise.


Could you provide a link to this DES self certified circular... as you may be aware there are many circulars.

I'm surprised this is even asked. How did a teacher achieve their H Dip in the first place? They are assessed through the dreaded TP. This should provide the basis of extra training for teachers if necessary.

Re the tokenistic box ticking, do you have no faith in the education system?

This is similar to the Circular I had in mind, http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0043_2012.pdf

So, who takes all seven of their Duvet days?

Armelodie wrote: »

Indeed a lot of other employees are graded by their managers... could you possibly outline one example that could be applied to education?

As discussed above, direct observation by the principal or an external body similar to those that assess trainee teachers.

Armelodie wrote: »

Just because something is difficult, does it mean that a 'solution' needs to be sought. Why is there a great need to measure everything that a teacher does. It's not bloody rocket science.. if you want improvements in education the reduce the class sizes... no matter how Mr Chips you are you can;t just pack em in and expect 'good performance'.

Is the quality of the teacher so unimportant in your opinion? There are some bad accountants, lawyers or doctors and you'll see them struck off/reprimanded each month (after due process) in their professional magazines.

Is the teaching profession important enough to merit such professional oversight?

amacca

smcgiff wrote: »

There are some bad accountants, lawyers or doctors and you'll see them struck off/reprimanded each month (after due process) in their professional magazines.

I'd like to say from the outset that I'm not against performance review……. (with the caveat that its truly fair and workable in terms of the amount of time that would have to be put into it and that it doesn't degenerate into a box ticking paper exercise or an excuse not to pay fair rates for what is a demanding job in lots of ways etc etc)

However, I know of at least two of what I would call poor solicitors that offered very poor advice to members of my family and I don't see them being struck of the register following complaint….

The only guys I see being struck off in the legal profession are the guys who really and truly "take the piss" for want of a better phrase……….the kind of characters who take loans out fraudulently using properties owned by their clients as collateral or end up mysteriously owning their dead clients properties etc

I'd be deeply afraid that if performance related pay is brought in it will degenerate into something that won't help student outcomes at all or teacher outcomes …thats if its not flawed from the start…..I do truly think its a very tricky thing to do correctly in teaching and that the job does stand apart at least in that respect……you can see how its done across the water and the inconsistencies it causes there (I'm sure the powers that be think thats a great idea but will eventually be forced into a rethink)….I'd even be afraid it wouldn't save money either as it would probably introduce another layer of administration/box ticking in the system too

smcgiff

amacca wrote: »

I'd like to say from the outset that I'm not against performance review……. (with the caveat that its truly fair and workable in terms of the amount of time that would have to be put into it and that it doesn't degenerate into a box ticking paper exercise or an excuse not to pay fair rates for what is a demanding job in lots of ways etc etc)

However, I know of at least two of what I would call poor solicitors that offered very poor advice to members of my family and I don't see them being struck of the register following complaint….

The only guys I see being struck off in the legal profession are the guys who really and truly "take the piss" for want of a better word……….the guys who take loans out fraudulently using properties owned by their clients as collateral or end up mysteriously owning their dead clients properties etc

You're describing incompetence versus fraud. I don't think being struck off for making a mistake would be the right outcome. However, if they were at a financial disadvantage they should have been able to claim off their solicitor's through their professional indemnity insurance.

Likewise if a teacher made a factual mistake in an observed lesson it would not be grounds for dismissal, but for possible CPD.

I would imagine the law society would have taken the solicitors to task, even if they were not struck off. Similarly they would be punished by higher premiums if compensation were paid.

#15

I have looked into this issue before and performance related pay is almost worthless if the aim is to increase student achievement or to ''raise test scores''.

I am copying a post I made in another forum at that time.

#15 wrote:

The US is testing merit pay in schools and the evidence shows that it has not worked, and is unlikely to work in the future.

Top ranked Schools of Education in the US such Peabody at Vanderbilt have carried out the most detailed research on merit pay.

Rewarding teachers with bonus pay, does not raise student test scores, according to a new study issued today by the National Center on Performance Incentives at Vanderbilt University’s Peabody College of education and human development in partnership with the RAND Corporation.

This and other findings from a three-year experiment – the first scientific study of performance pay ever conducted in the United States – were released at a conference on evaluating and rewarding educator effectiveness hosted by the National Center on Performance Incentives at Vanderbilt.

“We tested the most basic and foundational question related to performance incentives — Does bonus pay alone improve student outcomes? – and we found that it does not,” Matthew Springer, executive director of the National Center on Performance Incentives, said

Mathematica Policy Research Group is halfway through a merit pay trial in the Chicago Public School System and the most recent findings said

We compared these 16 schools as a group to a carefully matched group of comparison schools and found that test score growth was not measurably better, nor were there detectable impacts on the rates at which teachers were retained in the school or in the district. The finding of no significant impacts is robust to the use of different samples and methods.

We compared these 16 schools as a group to a carefully matched group of comparison schools and found that test score growth was not measurably better, nor were there detectable impacts on the rates at which teachers were retained in the school or in the district. The finding of no significant impacts is robust to the use of different samples and methods.

Roland Fryer, from Harvard's Department of Economics led another trial in New York City schools.

He found "no evidence that teacher incentives increase student performance, attendance or graduation". On the contrary, Fryer reported that teacher incentives may actually decrease student achievement, especially in larger schools

The most significant report by far though, is the first one that I cited.

Diane Ravitch has also wrote quite a bit on this issue. She is an education professor at NYU and was an assistant secretary of education in George H.W. Bush's administration.

One of the signature issues of businesspeople and conservative Republicans for the past 30 years has been merit pay. They believe in competition, and they believe that financial rewards can be used to incentivize better performance, so it seems natural for them to conclude that merit pay or performance pay would incentivize teachers to produce better results.
Few people realize that merit pay schemes have been tried again and again since the 1920s.

Belief in them waxes and wanes, but the results have never been robust.

amacca

smcgiff wrote: »

You're describing incompetence versus fraud. I don't think being struck off for making a mistake would be the right outcome. However, if they were at a financial disadvantage they should have been able to claim off their solicitor's through their professional indemnity insurance.

everything seems to be very cut and dried with you….its not that simple, advice was given in one instance which resulted in not enough stamps for pension - i.e: negative consequences were well down the road from the consultation….how do you even go about proving solicitor said x 10plus years ago without a recording or transcript or having it in writing…….id be willing to bet there are levels of incompetence in most professions no amount of performance management would solve….

smcgiff wrote: »

Likewise if a teacher made a factual mistake in an observed lesson it would not be grounds for dismissal, but for possible CPD.

depends on the mistake imo and conditions it occurred under

smcgiff wrote: »

I would imagine the law society would have taken the solicitors to task, even if they were not struck off. Similarly they would be punished by higher premiums if compensation were paid.

You'd imagine wrong methinks …see above, theres plenty of them out there + accountants that like using pressure tactics to hold on to business and doctors that routinely prescribe antibiotics for viral infections without there being a need to fight secondary bacterial infections along with bendy solicitors etc etc

smcgiff

amacca wrote: »

everything seems to be very cut and dried with you….its not that simple, advice was given in one instance which resulted in not enough stamps for pension - i.e: negative consequences were well down the road from the consultation….how do you even go about proving solicitor said x 10plus years ago without a recording or transcript or having it in writing…….id be willing to bet there are levels of incompetence in most professions no amount of performance management would solve….



depends on the mistake imo and conditions it occurred under



You'd imagine wrong methinks …see above, theres plenty of them out there + accountants that like using pressure tactics to hold on to business and doctors that routinely prescribe antibiotics for viral infections without there being a need to fight secondary bacterial infections along with bendy solicitors etc etc

On the contrary, you're the one that seems to be cut and dry.

It looks like the law society had nothing to deal with. Your argument to my mind is irrelevant. Apart from your anecdote there are plenty of cases where solicitors are brought to task and it is why such professions have professional indemnity insurance.

Edit - Just realised something. Why were they getting financial advice from a solicitor?!?

smcgiff

#15 wrote: »

I have looked into this issue before and performance related pay is almost worthless if the aim is to increase student achievement or to ''raise test scores''.

I am copying a post I made in another forum at that time.

“We tested the most basic and foundational question related to performance incentives — Does bonus pay alone improve student outcomes? "

You can see the gaping hole in that argument can't you.

From what you've listed it doesn't appear to answer WHY it felt performance wasn't improved, which would be interesting.

However, it could also be the case that a student's grades/performance (as this seems to be what this study was looking into) remaining consistent and not deteriorating could be seen as a good performance by a teacher.

The studies mentioned seem to expect teachers to improve students ability, we know this would be extremely difficult and shouldn't be the basis of assessment.

amacca

smcgiff wrote: »

On the contrary, you're the one that seems to be cut and dry.

not sure where you're getting that from…your bolded sections don't really help?

smcgiff wrote: »

It looks like the law society had nothing to deal with. Your argument to my mind is irrelevant. Apart from your anecdote there are plenty of cases where solicitors are brought to task and it is why such professions have professional indemnity insurance.

thats exactly my point…despite gross incompetence (to my mind) there was probably nothing they could do…kind of puts a damper on your argument.

smcgiff wrote: »

Edit - Just realised something. Why were they getting financial advice from a solicitor?!?

it was legal advice…..ie: what were the rules/regulations/laws governing conditions and eligibility! is that not within the remit of a solicitor?

smcgiff

amacca wrote: »

thats exactly my point…despite gross incompetence (to my mind) there was probably nothing they could do…kind of puts a damper on your argument.

Only in your anecdote. The legal, medicine and accounting professions (and many others) are highly regulated and a lot of cases get into the media, many more are reported in the related media. Going down the road of comparing the regulation of the education and other professional bodies REALLY isn't helping you.

amacca wrote: »

it was legal advice…..ie: what were the rules/regulations/laws governing conditions and eligibility! is that not within the remit of a solicitor?

I'm not a solicitor, but I would never have considered them being experts on financial products.

Calculation of stamps would be in the remit of a taxation consultant/accountant. Overall for pensions it would be best to discuss with a CFA.

evolving_doors

smcgiff wrote: »

Their case files are peer reviewed.

And they get a pay increase on this basis????

smcgiff wrote: »

Also, guess what happens when a complaint against a doctor or nurse is made. The words fine tooth comb come to mind.

You mention fine tooth comb ... is this for all complaints made to the medical council? I would assume the nature of the complaint is taken into account... i.e. "the doctor was a little bit rude towards a patient"... full investigation by the medical council ensues .. I think not. Similarly for teachers, the nature of the complaint is taken into account by the teaching council/school.

BTW, This is irrelevant to the discussion of performance related pay. Unless you are suggesting of course that if a complaint is made and upheld then the doctor's pay is decreased!!!

smcgiff wrote: »

I'm surprised this is even asked. How did a teacher achieve their H Dip in the first place? They are assessed through the dreaded TP. This should provide the basis of extra training for teachers if necessary.

So therefore you are suggesting that the principal undertakes at least 4 observations per year to be in line with HDip practice!! I'd like to see you suggest that my principal...

"Ah sorry Mr. Principal,,, you have to do...

• 160 observations on your staff this year
• and the associated paperwork...
• and don;t forget the training required to ensure you are qualified to make these judgements,
• and then deal with the appeals process
• and negative sentiment created amongst the staff because of accusations of favoritism."

What if the Principal is happy with the quality of his staff!!! That's a hell of a lot of extra work for a lot of unnecessary paperwork.

smcgiff wrote: »

Re the tokenistic box ticking, do you have no faith in the education system?

Yes I actully have some faith in the education system and the professionalism of teachers as things stand at the moment. What I don't have faith in is the rabble and politicians who have absolutely no clue about the education system (apart from being qualified in 'gone to school once'). As plenty of teachers have commented here, look to the UK.

smcgiff wrote: »

This is similar to the Circular I had in mind, http://www.education.ie/en/Circulars-and-Forms/Active-Circulars/cl0043_2012.pdf

So that's your trump card there “seven days self-certified paid sick leave be granted over a rolling two year period”.
Wow,,, or should i say 'LOL, ROTFL,LMAO'... Obviously the teaching profession is rife with people being sick less than 4 times in a year. I don;t know about your knowledge of teaching but when I miss out days I do actually have to make up the time in order to get the course finished. And what's worse is the amount of teachers I see coming in sick because they don;t want their students to miss out. Duvet days!!! if you are a teacher taking duvet days you really are setting yourself up for a fall.

See what happened in the UK HERE) or (HERE)with the introduction of performance related pay and having to justify everything with tonnes of unnecessary paperwork.

"The vast majority of teachers, sometimes unwisely, go into school, even though they may be ill, because of their commitment to the children.
'Unfortunately, too much stress is endemic to the job and it is the responsibility of not only the Government but the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats to explore ways of reducing the excessive numbers of initiatives faced weekly by schools.'
Despite record education spending under Labour, teaching vacancies have risen by a quarter in the past year - with four in ten new teachers quitting within a year. Critics say they are weighed down with too many initiatives, too much form-filling and too much bad behaviour"

BTW are you happy for me to undertake less teaching contact hours to incorporate all this paperwork That will ensue if we follow the UK model.... and still pay me the same despite having to employ extra teachers to make up the time lost.

smcgiff wrote: »

So, who takes all seven of their Duvet days?

I don;t know who does maybe you could provide some statistics as to those who take self-certified sick leave and are actually 'not sick'

Anyway.. how is this related to performance related pay. If you are sick for four days in the year you dont get a pay increase!!

Is that it?

smcgiff wrote: »

Is the quality of the teacher so unimportant in your opinion? There are some bad accountants, lawyers or doctors and you'll see them struck off/reprimanded each month (after due process) in their professional magazines.

Is the teaching profession important enough to merit such professional oversight?

It's not the 'principal' of the thing but how it's done if it is to be done... You are very scant on the actual 'how' part. This is what I have concerns about as I see the mess that has been created in the UK just to appease the rabble.

amacca

smcgiff wrote: »

Only in your anecdote. The legal, medicine and accounting professions (and many others) are highly regulated and a lot of cases get into the media, many more are reported in the related media. Going down the road of comparing the regulation of the education and other professional bodies REALLY isn't helping you.

I didn't go down that road, you did………..I'm simply responding to an implication in your posts that the regulation in those professions weeds out incompetence to a greater degree than the teaching profession

I find that implication hard to swallow given personal experience and the amount of solicitors that actually end up ejected from the profession/put on the bold list by the law society

I don't think your argument is helping you but I suppose well have to agree to disagree:)

smcgiff wrote: »

I'm not a solicitor, but I would never have considered them being experts on financial products.

Calculation of stamps would be in the remit of a taxation consultant/accountant. Overall for pensions it would be best to discuss with a CFA.

I wouldn't consider them to be experts on financial products either except It wasn't a product offered by a business….state pension therefore governed by what I presume would be the laws of the land….

just after asking dad about it, he said he also got bad advice from an accountant about the pension thing…..he thinks the guy wanted to encourage him even sell some of his stamps to a "preferred client" - then again he likes a good conspiracy theory my dad

smcgiff

Armelodie wrote: »

And they get a pay increase on this basis????

It was mentioned that those professions were not assessed. This thread is the one discussing performance related pay for teachers. And up to now it was proposed that it was not possible to assess teachers, that they were different.

Armelodie wrote: »

You mention fine tooth comb ... is this for all complaints made to the medical council? I would assume the nature of the complaint is taken into account... i.e. "the doctor was a little bit rude towards a patient"... full investigation by the medical council ensues .. I think not. Similarly for teachers, the nature of the complaint is taken into account by the teaching council/school.

BTW, This is irrelevant to the discussion of performance related pay. Unless you are suggesting of course that if a complaint is made and upheld then the doctor's pay is decreased!!!

You know full well the implications for doctors if complaints are upheld. It can mean anything up to being struck off. But, again that post relates back to the belief that it is impossible for teachers to be assessed. Other professions are and so can teachers.

Armelodie wrote: »

So therefore you are suggesting that the principal undertakes at least 4 observations per year to be in line with HDip practice!! I'd like to see you suggest that my principal...

"Ah sorry Mr. Principal,,, you have to do...

• 160 observations on your staff this year
• and the associated paperwork...
• and don;t forget the training required to ensure you are qualified to make these judgements,
• and then deal with the appeals process
• and negative sentiment created amongst the staff because of accusations of favoritism."

What if the Principal is happy with the quality of his staff!!! That's a hell of a lot of extra work for a lot of unnecessary paperwork.

No, I don't think it would need to be 4 times per year, and as discussed subsequently, it would (similar to TP) need to be an external assessor. So, at least all your subsequent worries can be put to rest.

Armelodie wrote: »

Yes I actully have some faith in the education system and the professionalism of teachers as things stand at the moment. What I don't have faith in is the rabble and politicians who have absolutely no clue about the education system (apart from being qualified in 'gone to school once'). As plenty of teachers have commented here, look to the UK.

It was the comment about CPD education being less than adequate that showed the lack of faith.

Re bold comment. Who exactly are the rabble? Parents of children? The posters on here? That comment really does you no credit.

The current Minister for education, the politician is a former teacher, as are quite a lot of politicians as it happens.

Armelodie wrote: »

So that's your trump card there “seven days self-certified paid
sick leave be granted over a rolling two year period”. Wow,,, or should i say 'LOL, ROTFL,LMAO'... Obviously the teaching profession is rife with people being sick less than 4 times in a year. I don;t know about your knowledge of teaching but when I miss out days I do actually have to make up the time in order to get the course finished. And what's worse is the amount of teacher I see coming in sick because they don;t want their students to miss out. Duvet days!!! if you are a teacher taking duvet days you really are setting yourself up for a fall.

The whole point about this discussion is that teachers are just like anybody else. SOME will abuse the system. Yes, the majority of teachers are conscientious and do excellent jobs. All the more reason for these to be highlighted. And I've not even mentioned substitutes - okay, I just have :P

Armelodie wrote: »

I don;t know who does maybe you could provide some statistics as to those who take self-certified sick leave and are actually 'not sick'

Is it your assertion that teachers never take duvet days? While the rest of the population does, hence the term is widely understood, teachers couldn't possibly?

Armelodie wrote: »

It's not the 'principal' of the thing but how it's done if it is to be done... You are very scant on the actual 'how' part.

As a trained professional in the education system, do you have any suggestions as to how it can be done.

Everyone on this thread will be in agreement that the eduction of our children is of paramount importance.

We know how important class size is, but does the quality of the teacher matter?

And yes, we all know bad teachers. We've had them ourselves. We've also had great teachers. The best I've known was a lecturer that was head and shoulders over the dinosaurs that weren't fit to lick her boots, but they had tenure. She left totally disillusioned with the farce.

smcgiff

amacca wrote: »

I don't think your argument is helping you but I suppose well have to agree to disagree:)

Probably for the best.

amacca wrote: »

I wouldn't consider them to be experts on financial products either except It wasn't a product offered by a business….state pension therefore governed by what I presume would be the laws of the land….

just after asking dad about it, he said he also got bad advice from an accountant about the pension thing…..he thinks the guy wanted to encourage him even sell some of his stamps to a "preferred client" - then again he likes a good conspiracy theory my dad

Taxation is law as well. I really suggest you don't go to your solicitor for tax advice. I would similarly have thought a solicitor was not the best person to expect to have knowledge on state pensions. Especially ones like teachers' where they could 'buy stamps' - that's probably not the correct term, but I'm not an expert on stamps.

And, re bad advice from an accountant. It certainly does happen. Same as a doctor may misdiagnose. Lawyers not having sufficient case law knowledge. That's the point. There are also teachers that may not be performing sufficiently well that need help or those that are doing very well and should be rewarded.

amacca

smcgiff wrote: »

Probably for the best.
Taxation is law as well. I really suggest you don't go to your solicitor for tax advice. I would similarly have thought a solicitor was not the best person to expect to have knowledge on state pensions. Especially ones like teachers' where they could 'buy stamps' - that's probably not the correct term, but I'm not an expert on stamps.

Just to clarify…my dad is not and never was a teacher……he was a carpenter/v.small farmer -> I think back then people with lots of different occupations could sell stamps if they had more than you needed due to periods of employment above what was required…or something along those lines

Anyway he got bad advice on the amount that was needed and ended up being very nearly screwed as a result……..through his own research he caught the error……still down financially but not nearly as bad as it could have been

smcgiff wrote: »

And, re bad advice from an accountant. It certainly does happen. Same as a doctor may misdiagnose. Lawyers not having sufficient case law knowledge. That's the point. There are also teachers that may not be performing sufficiently well that need help or those that are doing very well and should be rewarded.

Like I said not against it in principle, its the practice I'd be worried about given the amount of administrative box ticking jobs for the boys bullsh1t Ive seen in the job and many others in the private sector too…. I do think its more than likely going to end up having many more negative consequences than positive ones if its brought in

I like previous posters have no faith in the powers that be to do it right in a fair ,balanced, cost neutral way that isn't a knee jerk reaction or won't end up being a fiasco or leaving the job nightmare thats less and less about actual teaching and providing the right conditions for teaching more about covering your ass and playing the blame game

I see a lot of things foisted on teaching because the crowds seem to bay loud enough for it or it was a particular ministers hobby horse/means of securing a legacy(possibly not a good one) or reputation that would help in securing further positions, not because it was justified by actual educational research…I've seen what I think are things introduced using "selected" parts of research while other parts were conveniently ignored because the didn't suit a populist narrative……And i've also seen things introduced that seemed to be decided at the top level and were then expected to happen without any follow through or proper resourcing……basically no joined up thinking due to a disconnect between those at the top and the people actually doing the job on the ground…thats not good in the long run and i've no reason to suspect some or all of the above wouldn't be the case in any performance related pay initiative.

I've mentioned in previous posts what I think would have to happen hand in hand with performance related pay for it to be successful never mind the actual mechanisms for measuring performance……I don't see those things (which i consider to be perfectly fair) happening (because i have little or no faith in the powers that be) and until they did i'd be against it.

#15

smcgiff wrote: »

“We tested the most basic and foundational question related to performance incentives — Does bonus pay alone improve student outcomes? "

You can see the gaping hole in that argument can't you.

Yes, which is exactly why I said

performance related pay is almost worthless if the aim is to increase student achievement or to ''raise test scores''.

But that raises the question that if the aim of PRP is not to increase student achivement, then what the hell is it for? To cut costs?

For what purpose is PRP necessary, in your opinion?
- Improving educational outcomes?
- Cost-cutting measures?
- Rewarding ''good'' teachers?
- Punishing bad teachers?
- Or some other reason?

smcgiff

#15 wrote: »

Yes, which is exactly why I said


But that raises the question that if the aim of PRP is not to increase student achivement, then what the hell is it for? To cut costs?

I've already answered this and I'm surprised it is not obvious.

#15

smcgiff wrote: »

I've already answered this and I'm surprised it is not obvious.

Sorry, I can't see your answer. I haven't been following this thread closely and my original post was not really aimed at you.

But I've had a skim over the thread and can't see your reasoning, other than that teachers ought to be assessed because they can be assessed and other professionals are assessed :

For anyone that thinks the teaching profession is not assessable, can they tell me any other job that cannot be assessed?

If I am misrepresenting you it's not intentional and it would be good if you could clarify it!

smcgiff

#15 wrote: »

Sorry, I can't see your answer. I haven't been following this thread closely and my original post was not really aimed at you.

But I've had a skim over the thread and can't see your reasoning, other than that teachers ought to be assessed because they can be assessed and other professionals are assessed :



If I am misrepresenting you it's not intentional and it would be good if you could clarify it!

I think student's improving in ability, moving up in standard tests is not a good test of ability of the teacher. However, a student or group of students going backwards would be something that should be looked at. If student's do show signs of improvement it would be exceptional and most certainly worthy of reward. I would imagine it would be very hard to achieve this, especially with the current classroom sizes.

#15

smcgiff wrote: »

I think student's improving in ability, moving up in standard tests is not a good test of ability of the teacher. However, a student or group of students going backwards would be something that should be looked at. If student's do show signs of improvement it would be exceptional and most certainly worthy of reward. I would imagine it would be very hard to achieve this, especially with the current classroom sizes.

Thanks for the clarification!

byhookorbycrook

I'm thinking particularly of primary where the curriculum is two year cycle, how do you measure how children "improve" without proper tests? And if we are to use tests that are standardized, you will end up with teaching to the test(which is what the Leaving has become). At present standardized tests only exist for Maths, Reading (English) and Irish, how do you envisage measuring progress in the arts, science, SESE and so on?

The process of creating the maths and literacy tests is long and slow and quite expensive, never mind the expense to the school of buying the tests.

A teacher may be exceptional in teaching to these tests (if they did exist)in say music and merely "very good" in all the others, so how do you decide to pay them or not, notionally on performance? The other factor that would worry me is that schools and even teachers might cherry pick pupils (as happens with some secondary schools already) and refuse to accept children with SEN or those whose first language is not English or those children from homes where education is not valued.

evolving_doors

smcgiff wrote: »

It was mentioned that those professions were not assessed. This thread is the one discussing performance related pay for teachers. And up to now it was proposed that it was not possible to assess teachers, that they were different.

Yes it was I who mentioned that these professions are not assessed for the purposes of performance related pay. And up until now it was proposed by 'some' (myself included) that it was not possible to assess teachers, that they were different (in line with other public services). And beyond 'now' it is being proposed also !...

So if you accept that these other professions (mainly dealing with the pubilc in a public service system) are not assessed in relation to pay related performance then you have to wonder why!!!

Maybe have a think about the word Profession... I know wikipedia is much decried but lets go with it anyway...

"A profession is a vocation founded upon specialized educational training, the purpose of which is to supply objective counsel and service to others, for a direct and definite compensation, wholly apart from expectation of other business gain."
Notice the emboldened part. This is not like a door-to-door salesman who works on commission. You know what you get paid and you do the best in your job. Simple.

smcgiff wrote: »

You know full well the implications for doctors if complaints are upheld. It can mean anything up to being struck off. But, again that post relates back to the belief that it is impossible for teachers to be assessed. Other professions are and so can teachers.

Meh! You could easily say that about teachers being struck off too if complaints are upheld. i.e. It can mean anything up to being struck off....
So what other public service professions are assessed for pay-related-performance?

smcgiff wrote: »

No, I don't think it would need to be 4 times per year, and as discussed subsequently, it would (similar to TP) need to be an external assessor. So, at least all your subsequent worries can be put to rest.

Ok good, we are digging into the topic a bit more and we are finding out that getting the Principal/'Manager' to do the assessing won't work.
As you say 'similar to the TP' then ,sorry, it's going to have to be more than one observation to make a judgement. The TP is usually around 4 observations (depending on how the course is structured with that particular University).

Sooo, we've moved on to 'Oh I don't know, get someone else to do it.. someone from the outside' idea. I'll give you that much though as it is being considered by some in the Dept. (HERE).

Although I can't really see inspectors coming in a few times a year every year to assess every teacher in our school in order to give a pay-rise. And then have them drive on to the next school to do the same, and then of course have the time to pour over the paperwork for appeals and to check up on the required paperwork from teachers that every student is meeting their targets (as per UK model). Do you have any idea how many inspectors would be needed to do this...

All of this to what end... to appease some numpties' notion that the wealthy teachers are creaming it at the trough while the kids aint learning anything....but what about the bad teachers joe.. and even then the baying crowd will be looking for more appeasement...and the 3 months holidays joe, the 3 months holidays. No matter what you do it's never enough for the begrudgers.

Why not just spend the money on increasing the pay to attract a bigger pool of teachers.. or spend the money to decrease the crazy class sizes.

Tl;Dr ..let the inspectors decide on pay related performance!!!

LOL

smcgiff wrote: »

It was the comment about CPD education being less than adequate that showed the lack of faith.

Ya don;t get me wrong, some of the CPD courses I've attended (of my own volition I might add.. no pay rise dangled in front of me) have been good. But once it's rolled out as 'this course will fulfill your CPD requirement' then we know the way it's going to go (well most teachers know the way it''s going to go anyway)..

You may be unfamiliar with the Croke Park hours that have been rolled out in teaching.. I'll stand corrected but most of the teacher experience of the extra hours 'meetings' have been mind-numbing-for-the-sake-of-it-borefests... (Just search 'croke park hours' on this forum). Once the intrinsic motivation for attending CPD is gone then the extrinsic monetary motivation will take over.

smcgiff wrote: »

Re bold comment. Who exactly are the rabble? Parents of children? The posters on here? That comment really does you no credit.

Who are the rabble? Basically i don't mind who likes to comment on education once they are prepared to listen to teachers and accept that their experience has merit. Those who don;t wish to listen and continue on with the same simplified one-liners are rabble.

smcgiff wrote: »

The current Minister for education, the politician is a former teacher, as are quite a lot of politicians as it happens.

Ya.. sure .. back in the 1970's!!! (Like Enda and Jan) "for a brief period" is usually the tagline on their teaching experience. A lot has changed since then (except the pension scheme that they are probably still in!).

smcgiff wrote: »

The whole point about this discussion is that teachers are just like anybody else. SOME will abuse the system. Yes, the majority of teachers are conscientious and do excellent jobs. All the more reason for these to be highlighted. And I've not even mentioned substitutes - okay, I just have :P

The whole point of this discussion is to consider how pay would be linked to 'teacher performance'. So as yet I've yet to see how it could be proposed without hindering the education system and a teacher's day to day job.

smcgiff wrote: »

Is it your assertion that teachers never take duvet days? While the rest of the population does, hence the term is widely understood, teachers couldn't possibly?

I'm saying that 'duvet days' has nothing got to do with pay-related-performance so your point falls down in that regard.
Mainly because you still haven't responded to the refutations about the absurdity of linking 'absenteeism due to illness' to 'performance/pay'.

smcgiff wrote: »

As a trained professional in the education system, do you have any suggestions as to how it can be done.

I'm saying that it can't be done effectively without spending A LOT of money. (as I've outlined already).
I'm also questioning why it should be done?
Who is asking for it to be done?
I am also saying that once you start to do it , it will go down the UK route. Less time for actual teaching and more time needed to justify why you should be paid.

smcgiff wrote: »

Everyone on this thread will be in agreement that the eduction of our children is of paramount importance.

Thanks for pointing that out.

smcgiff wrote: »

We know how important class size is, but does the quality of the teacher matter?

And yes, we all know bad teachers. We've had them ourselves. We've also had great teachers. The best I've known was a lecturer that was head and shoulders over the dinosaurs that weren't fit to lick her boots, but they had tenure. She left totally disillusioned with the farce.

So we're back to the tenure/can't lose their jobs dilemma.. (BTW Lecturing and teaching are different things).
So, back to the drawing board again.... how do you propose to do it in order to weed out the bad teachers and compensate the good ones?

smcgiff wrote: »

1. What Continuous professional education has the teacher undertaken?
2. How many sick days has the teacher taken in the last year.
3. How has their manager assessed their work - the principal in this case. Is this a shocking thought? A lot of other employees are graded by their managers.

BTW I've noticed your above initial suggestions have not held much water as you've given up on those also... care to mention some other ways that performance can be measured... and rewarded accordingly?

smcgiff

Armelodie wrote: »

BTW I've noticed your above initial suggestions have not held much water as you've given up on these also... care to mention some other ways that performance can be measured... and rewarded accordingly?

Really? How did you possibly come to that conclusion? I stand by all 4 of my original suggestions. If you think any of the attempts to change my mind were persuasive then you've over estimated your power of debate.

But, that's simply an error of judgement. I can forgive that. What I don't have time for is the putting words in my mouth. That's simply... childish.

As for the substantial debate I'd only be going around in circles. And as a Higher Professional I don't have time for that. Oh, look. I can be flippant too.

evolving_doors

smcgiff wrote: »

Really? How did you possibly come to that conclusion? I stand by all 4 of my original suggestions. If you think any of the attempts to change my mind were persuasive then you've over estimated your power of debate.

But, that's simply an error of judgement. I can forgive that. What I don't have time for is the putting words in my mouth. That's simply... childish.

As for the substantial debate I'd only be going around in circles. And as a Higher Professional I don't have time for that. Oh, look. I can be flippant too.

Yes you can stand by them allright, the same as people can stand by the 'principle' of performance related pay... but you still failed to justify with debate.. let me summarise:

You say that PRP is applicable to any job, but you fail to accept or put forward a method of doing so in any public service profession.

You fail to put forward any opposition to a definition of a profession.

You suggested something about principals doing the deciding, but recanted.

You then suggested inspectors should do it but neglected to 'account' for the massive cost involved.

You mentioned something about factoring in duvet days... whatever that was about.

You talked about factoring in CPD which has merit but neglected to counter my example of tokenism/extrinsic vs' intrinsic motivation/croke park/high levels of cpd undertaken already.

You accept that student grades are not a good measure of deciding PRP.

I think its rather pertinent about public service and PRP if you look at the Irish water remuneration structure... I.e. PRP... now people have replaced the notion of PRP with the dirty word of BONUSES.

"What? Bonuses for doing their bloody job".

'well no actually its to weed out the 'bad' workers and reward the 'good' ones so theyll work better'.

LOL

smcgiff

Armelodie wrote: »

Yes you can stand by them allright, the same as people can stand by the 'principle' of performance related pay... but you still failed to justify with debate.. let me summarise:

You say that PRP is applicable to any job, but you fail to accept or put forward a method of doing so in any public service profession.

You fail to put forward any opposition to a definition of a profession.

You suggested something about principals doing the deciding, but recanted.

You then suggested inspectors should do it but neglected to 'account' for the massive cost involved.

You mentioned something about factoring in duvet days... whatever that was about.

You talked about factoring in CPD which has merit but neglected to counter my example of tokenism/extrinsic vs' intrinsic motivation/croke park/high levels of cpd undertaken already.

You accept that student grades are not a good measure of deciding PRP.

I think its rather pertinent about public service and PRP if you look at the Irish water remuneration structure... I.e. PRP... now people have replaced the notion of PRP with the dirty word of BONUSES.

"What? Bonuses for doing their bloody job".

'well no actually its to weed out the 'bad' workers and reward the 'good' ones so theyll work better'.

LOL

I'll give you a new word to play with.

ROFL.

I disagree with your conclusions. But, I feel like I'd be rehashing old arguments again to take it further.

Take that as a victory if you like. You probably will.

evolving_doors

smcgiff wrote: »

I'll give you a new word to play with.

ROFL.

I disagree with your conclusions. But, I feel like I'd be rehashing old arguments again to take it further.

Take that as a victory if you like. You probably will.

I used ROFL a few posts back.

As regards rehashing old arguments... lets just say theres no point as they have been shown not to hold any merit.

TBH its easy to be against something and give loads of reasons why not (which is my position), but teachers have seen enough 'reform for the sake of soundbites' to be critical.
Also, given the sham of a JCert that is being rammed through... you'ld have to wonder will they justify its success by linking it to PRP... I.e. "either get with the program or you won't be paid your 'bonus'."

In a few years the phrase 'Pay related performance' will change to 'bonus for doing your normal job' ..and look at the bad sentiment that has created already (Irish water!!!).

byhookorbycrook

Smgiff, you haven't answered my questions re performance pay at primary level?

SM746

Just glancing through the last few days comments and there does seem to be a rebuttal from a fewcof the idea of bringing CPD into any performance related agenda. As I said I am firmly against results relayed pay but I think CPD should have a prominent role in any future system which I think will come.


All evidence based research indicates that teacher quality is the greatest influence on student achievement. Surely a properly thought out and structured CPD system with a clear and visible goal and outcome could only benefit education?

An improvement in teacher quality will inevitably come from good cpd and then the knock on effect would be seen so why not link compulsory CPD to a performance related pay system?

I recognise an overhaul of the current CPD out there is drastically needed but surely with the few right minds together that is achievable? I would love to have a say on it :-)

mirrorwall14

SM746 wrote: »

Just glancing through the last few days comments and there does seem to be a rebuttal from a fewcof the idea of bringing CPD into any performance related agenda. As I said I am firmly against results relayed pay but I think CPD should have a prominent role in any future system which I think will come.


All evidence based research indicates that teacher quality is the greatest influence on student achievement. Surely a properly thought out and structured CPD system with a clear and visible goal and outcome could only benefit education?

An improvement in teacher quality will inevitably come from good cpd and then the knock on effect would be seen so why not link compulsory CPD to a performance related pay system?

I recognise an overhaul of the current CPD out there is drastically needed but surely with the few right minds together that is achievable? I would love to have a say on it :-)

I think there are several major issues with CPD at the moment:

1. Chronically underfunded/unorganised.
The Project Maths workshops are the perfect example. The materials never seem to be quite right so if you are the first group to go, the stuff isn't fantastic and can be riddled with errors (though it has improved in the last year). The questions teachers have tend not to get answered and the work can be ridiculous in the extreme (making function machines by rolling paper). There is little opportunity for peer discussion. Some of the materials are good but realistically the last two days I spent on CPD for project maths could have been done in about 2 hours by myself or in a small group going through the materials ourselves.

2. Not enough variety
I don't need to go to a basic course in computers but I'd love to go to a proper one in programming or one that does maths computing etc but there's nothing available at this level. Similarly in other subjects the same CPD is run year in year out with little options for progression. E.g. there are ipad courses running in drumcondra at the moment but there is only beginner and intermediate. What about those of us who are past that? Similarly if you read the course description for one of the other courses here it doesn't appear to go beyond basics. In fact drumcondra seem to be only offering three post primary courses this year, two of them are versions of the same course!
Additionally there are next to no post primary courses run over the summer-they are all primary school

3. Relevance
A lot of CPD is just not linked enough to the subjects/work in the classroom. We don't just need to know how to use google drive, unless subject specific examples that are relevant and useful are given-the reality is it will never be used. In a similar way I remember the early Project Maths workshops had tons of maths questions but none of them had a recommended level e.g. HL/OL or JC/LC. Thats just ridiculous. If we are giving time up for CPD it needs to be relevant and useful

4. Whole School CPD
This is frankly a complete waste of time in most cases. The numbers are too large for any meaningful discussion to take place. There is never enough time and crucially it simply cannot be aimed at all the different levels of knowledge in the room with boring some people to tears and completely losing others. I have sat through numerous full day workshops in various different schools and I can honestly say that the material could have been covered far more concisely and way quicker if it wasn't taught as CPD.
Croke park hours that had to be done as a staff in particular were horrific and a complete pen pushers exercise. What workplace environment do you know of that insists that all staff members take CPD together as one massive group??! They created huge amounts of resentment against CPD

Anyways that was longer than I anticipated but you get my thoughts

evolving_doors

SM746 wrote: »

Just glancing through the last few days comments and there does seem to be a rebuttal from a fewcof the idea of bringing CPD into any performance related agenda. As I said I am firmly against results relayed pay but I think CPD should have a prominent role in any future system which I think will come.


All evidence based research indicates that teacher quality is the greatest influence on student achievement. Surely a properly thought out and structured CPD system with a clear and visible goal and outcome could only benefit education?

An improvement in teacher quality will inevitably come from good cpd and then the knock on effect would be seen so why not link compulsory CPD to a performance related pay system?

I recognise an overhaul of the current CPD out there is drastically needed but surely with the few right minds together that is achievable? I would love to have a say on it :-)

I think the whole notion of Performance Related Pay in a profession is abhorrent. Just let us get on with our work and get paid accordingly, if you want to incentivise CPD then just provide substitution and teachers will go of their own volition. To echo mirrorwall14's point above.. the CPD being offered is scant and very basic ..at best.. So I somehow doubt that they have the funds to put on anything more substantial than a one-day overview.

Personally I think what should be done is to pump more money into letting teachers seek out their own courses or allow them to propose to travel to the UK for better short term courses. (Sure there would be extra costs but consider the costs associated with PRP and all the paperwork, appeals, reviews, reports, inspections that go with it). So I would hazzard a guess that if the money is there to invest in a PRP system then the money is there to let teachers use their own professional judgement on what the trends are and what their needs are.

I also think the varied nature of what teachers believe to be relevant to 'their own' teaching, allows for a greater diversity of educational styles. If you have compulsory CPD then it will be agenda driven by what 'others' believe to be important things teachers must know. Is the stick of chalk less powerful than an iPad?? No, they are just different tools, and can be equally as educationally effective in the right hands.

SM746

Armelodie wrote: »

I think the whole notion of Performance Related Pay in a profession is abhorrent. Just let us get on with our work and get paid accordingly, if you want to incentivise CPD then just provide substitution and teachers will go of their own volition. To echo mirrorwall14's point above.. the CPD being offered is scant and very basic ..at best.. So I somehow doubt that they have the funds to put on anything more substantial than a one-day overview.

Personally I think what should be done is to pump more money into letting teachers seek out their own courses or allow them to propose to travel to the UK for better short term courses. (Sure there would be extra costs but consider the costs associated with PRP and all the paperwork, appeals, reviews, reports, inspections that go with it). So I would hazzard a guess that if the money is there to invest in a PRP system then the money is there to let teachers use their own professional judgement on what the trends are and what their needs are.

I also think the varied nature of what teachers believe to be relevant to 'their own' teaching, allows for a greater diversity of educational styles. If you have compulsory CPD then it will be agenda driven by what 'others' believe to be important things teachers must know. Is the stick of chalk less powerful than an iPad?? No, they are just different tools, and can be equally as educationally effective in the right hands.

Oh I agree that the thoughts of a PRP system, and especially the thoughts of results based pay, is abhorrent but I have no doubt that there is talks going on by some 'expert advisors' regarding the implementation of this issue and we will have some PRP system by the end of the decade I personally feel.

With that in mind I think what I am trying to raise in my last few points is what I feel would be the fairest way to get this implemented.

With the fact that teacher quality is so important in student outcomes, would bringing CPD to the fore not be the best initial starting point?
I say that in full agreement with what you and the previous poster have said about CPD in its current state not being fit for practice.

However a PRP system has to start somewhere and you can be sure the men in power will be monitoring England very closely to see what we can take from it.

I'm probably being totally pessimistic but I really believe PRP is coming and with the power brokers we have I can see it being implemented as poorly as the experiences our English posters have given us.

clartharlear

I'm not getting involved in the (vitriolic at times!) debate, but I thought some of you might be interested in the lesson observation aspect of PRP in the UK. Lessons are formally observed termly on average, but could be more if 'capability' is questioned. Much of the performance management is carried out by the middle management - a layer which basically does not exist in Ireland.

Here are the boxes we need to tick in each lesson: (the form changes substantially every year to keep up with the latest trends)

• Does the lesson start promptly and in an organised way? (TS4, TS7)
• Do the students have the correct equipment and resources to aid their learning?
• Are the students engaged with the task? (TS1,2,4)
• Has an effective starter activity been planned for? Does it build on prior learning or introduce new learning? (TS2, TS4)
• Have the learning objectives been introduced? Are they challenging (differentiated)? (TS2)
• Is the school’s policy regarding uniform and behaviour and health & Safety being adhered to? (TS2, TS7)
• Do the learning activities allow the students to meet the learning objectives? (TS4)
• Is the lesson appropriately pitched for this group? (TS2)
• Are there a range of tasks which allows all groups of learners to make progress? (TS2,4,5)
• Does each activity build on prior learning? (TS2)
• Are students taking responsibility for their own learning? (TS2)
• Are there high expectations? (TS1)
• Are the students engaged and on task? (TS4,7)
• Do the students understand the explanations provided and know what and why they are doing the tasks? (TS3)
• Does the teacher display good subject knowledge? (TS3)
• Can the teacher anticipate possible misconceptions and prevent/ deal appropriately with them? (TS3)
• Are the students making progress? What is the evidence for this? (TS2)
• How is the students’ progress being monitored? (TS6)
• How is this information being used to inform teaching and learning? (TS4)
• Are the students provided constructive feedback? (TS6)
• How are those students of whom are EAL and those with SEND, appropriately supported? (TS5)
• How do the students respond to the school’s agreed approach to rewards and sanctions? (TS7)
• Has a plenary activity been planned for and delivered? (TS4,6)
• Is there an orderly end to the lesson?
• Has all equipment and resources been safely packed away? (TS1,7)
• Has homework been set? Or handed in? (TS4)
• Does the homework activity challenge all groups of learners? (TS2,4)

Final reflection on progress…
• Have the learning objectives been met? What is the evidence for this? (TS2)
• Was there sufficient challenge within the lesson? (indicator: could students answer questions straight away or did they have to think and/ or develop their skills)

Work Scrutiny (TS2,6)
• Review the quality of feedback provided within marked work. Does the student (s) know how to progress?
• Do the students act on the feedback provided?
• Is there evidence that progress is being made over time?


Student Voice
• Is this a typical lesson?
• What level/ grade are you working at?
• What are your key areas of strength?
• What areas do you need to focus on? How can you improve within those areas?
• What do you enjoy most about this subject?

byhookorbycrook

Do the students have the correct equipment and resources to aid their learning?

The lack of all kinds of resources and the funding for the same mean this will never be introduced here. Many schools can hardly afford heating!

Is the school’s policy regarding uniform and behaviour and health & Safety being adhered to? Seriously,32 children in an overcrowded class where some children are doing well to come to school, not to mind have the full uniform, ?? * Snort*

How are those students of whom are EAL and those with SEND, appropriately supported? This would be funny, if it weren't so serious.

Is there evidence that progress is being made over time? How do we define and measure progress? Isn't that part of the whole issue? Are we still trying to ape the failed English system where every single child has hundred of objectives to be ticked and where many NQTS leave the job within a few years?

amacca

clartharlear wrote: »

I'm not getting involved in the (vitriolic at times!) debate, but I thought some of you might be interested in the lesson observation aspect of PRP in the UK. Lessons are formally observed termly on average, but could be more if 'capability' is questioned. Much of the performance management is carried out by the middle management - a layer which basically does not exist in Ireland.

Here are the boxes we need to tick in each lesson: (the form changes substantially every year to keep up with the latest trends)

• Does the lesson start promptly and in an organised way? (TS4, TS7)
• Do the students have the correct equipment and resources to aid their learning?
• Are the students engaged with the task? (TS1,2,4)
• Has an effective starter activity been planned for? Does it build on prior learning or introduce new learning? (TS2, TS4)
• Have the learning objectives been introduced? Are they challenging (differentiated)? (TS2)
• Is the school’s policy regarding uniform and behaviour and health & Safety being adhered to? (TS2, TS7)
• Do the learning activities allow the students to meet the learning objectives? (TS4)
• Is the lesson appropriately pitched for this group? (TS2)
• Are there a range of tasks which allows all groups of learners to make progress? (TS2,4,5)
• Does each activity build on prior learning? (TS2)
• Are students taking responsibility for their own learning? (TS2)
• Are there high expectations? (TS1)
• Are the students engaged and on task? (TS4,7)
• Do the students understand the explanations provided and know what and why they are doing the tasks? (TS3)
• Does the teacher display good subject knowledge? (TS3)
• Can the teacher anticipate possible misconceptions and prevent/ deal appropriately with them? (TS3)
• Are the students making progress? What is the evidence for this? (TS2)
• How is the students’ progress being monitored? (TS6)
• How is this information being used to inform teaching and learning? (TS4)
• Are the students provided constructive feedback? (TS6)
• How are those students of whom are EAL and those with SEND, appropriately supported? (TS5)
• How do the students respond to the school’s agreed approach to rewards and sanctions? (TS7)
• Has a plenary activity been planned for and delivered? (TS4,6)
• Is there an orderly end to the lesson?
• Has all equipment and resources been safely packed away? (TS1,7)
• Has homework been set? Or handed in? (TS4)
• Does the homework activity challenge all groups of learners? (TS2,4)

Final reflection on progress…
• Have the learning objectives been met? What is the evidence for this? (TS2)
• Was there sufficient challenge within the lesson? (indicator: could students answer questions straight away or did they have to think and/ or develop their skills)

Work Scrutiny (TS2,6)
• Review the quality of feedback provided within marked work. Does the student (s) know how to progress?
• Do the students act on the feedback provided?
• Is there evidence that progress is being made over time?


Student Voice
• Is this a typical lesson?
• What level/ grade are you working at?
• What are your key areas of strength?
• What areas do you need to focus on? How can you improve within those areas?
• What do you enjoy most about this subject?

That is interesting, in a mildly depressing way

Is it actually possible for any human being to tick all those boxes in one single lesson? - if we are talking about one lesson, how long is the lesson for? 40mins - 1hr?….presumably it would be a fantastic lesson that would tick all of those boxes and some sort of magician that would be able to tick those boxes 8-9 times a day, 5 days a week week after week with classes of 30+ students an increasing number of which with EBDs along with the usual stuff that goes on……….does the system expect everything to be perfect or is there common sense applied…i.e. the nature and size of the group is taken into account + other mitigating factors etc


There are a number of specific ones I'd have a problem with being marked down on personally, some examples are

• Do the students have the correct equipment and resources to aid their learning?

Is it the teachers fault if they don't in that system?…..what if they keep showing up without them, mammy won't buy them for them, they deliberately misplace them etc etc - why is that not showing up on their assessment rather than the teachers - do they have no responsibility for themselves in the system?

I consider resources to be things like, relevant textbook, pens, pencils, ruler, t-square, compass, calculator etc etc - When I was a student I was expected to bring theses things with me and I would have expected any students of mine to do the same…tbh I thought it was good training.


• How do the students respond to the school’s agreed approach to rewards and sanctions? (TS7)

Again why is this showing up on a teacher assessment…If the student responds badly to the school rules applied by the book is it that the individual teachers fault?

if the schools uniform and behaviour policy is not being adhered to, can that be said to be the entirely the teachers fault (if at all in a lot of cases) etc etc


I also kind of think this approach is a bit like a paint by numbers …… its going to drain any spontaneity or originality out of a classroom eventually as everyone will be singing off the same hymn sheet…..its funny in a way, many people are giving out about teaching to the test in this country…with a system like this you have every teacher brainwashed into teaching towards the teachers test (their assessment) if you get what i mean……


eg: while being assessed every teacher will be sure to have "high expectations"

T: I have high expectations for you little Johnny/class!
LJ: O.K. thanks sir, ill be sure and try harder now that you've said that like every other teacher every class period every day this week…..I'm sure the students themselves will begin to spot a familiar pattern after a while and consequently get very bored very quickly and the whole thing becomes meaningless after a while

but can an assessor state they didn't have high expectations if the teacher states it explicitly? I'd argue they couldn't, the use of opinion in a system like that could be easily disputed

Some of the above smacks of misguided micromanagement to me and i think ultimately although it or something like it will come in…imo it will be found to be unsuitable after about the amount of time it takes to wreck the system and be shown to have little or no effect on student achievement except perhaps a detrimental one……If I was still at it, I'd be motivated to ace the assessment rather than improve teaching as thats what the system is telling me it wants - some of that might align with better teaching but quite a lot of it wouldn't imo

Not the differentiation, normal class organisation aspects mind….I can see how these are important…just the way of going about it with nonsensical form filling, box ticking administrative nonsense that will grind the energy, enthusiasm and spontaneity out of the classroom teacher while creating another layer of HSE style clipboard jockeys

clartharlear

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Are we still trying to ape the failed English system where every single child has hundred of objectives to be ticked and where many NQTS leave the job within a few years?

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear - I AM in England. Thought it might be interesting for you at home to see what sort of situations PRP here leads to.

Afroshack

amacca wrote: »

That is interesting, in a mildly depressing way

Is it actually possible for any human being to tick all those boxes in one single lesson? - if we are talking about one lesson, how long is the lesson for? 40mins - 1hr?….presumably it would be a fantastic lesson that would tick all of those boxes and some sort of magician that would be able to tick those boxes 8-9 times a day, 5 days a week week after week with classes of 30+ students an increasing number of which with EBDs along with the usual stuff that goes on……….does the system expect everything to be perfect or is there common sense applied…i.e. the nature and size of the group is taken into account + other mitigating factors etc


There are a number of specific ones I'd have a problem with being marked down on personally, some examples are

• Do the students have the correct equipment and resources to aid their learning?

Is it the teachers fault if they don't in that system?…..what if they keep showing up without them, mammy won't buy them for them, they deliberately misplace them etc etc - why is that not showing up on their assessment rather than the teachers - do they have no responsibility for themselves in the system?

I consider resources to be things like, relevant textbook, pens, pencils, ruler, t-square, compass, calculator etc etc - When I was a student I was expected to bring theses things with me and I would have expected any students of mine to do the same…tbh I thought it was good training.


• How do the students respond to the school’s agreed approach to rewards and sanctions? (TS7)

Again why is this showing up on a teacher assessment…If the student responds badly to the school rules applied by the book is it that the individual teachers fault?

if the schools uniform and behaviour policy is not being adhered to, can that be said to be the entirely the teachers fault (if at all in a lot of cases) etc etc


I also kind of think this approach is a bit like a paint by numbers …… its going to drain any spontaneity or originality out of a classroom eventually as everyone will be singing off the same hymn sheet…..its funny in a way, many people are giving out about teaching to the test in this country…with a system like this you have every teacher brainwashed into teaching towards the teachers test (their assessment) if you get what i mean……


eg: while being assessed every teacher will be sure to have "high expectations"

T: I have high expectations for you little Johnny/class!
LJ: O.K. thanks sir, ill be sure and try harder now that you've said that like every other teacher every class period every day this week…..I'm sure the students themselves will begin to spot a familiar pattern after a while and consequently get very bored very quickly and the whole thing becomes meaningless after a while

but can an assessor state they didn't have high expectations if the teacher states it explicitly? I'd argue they couldn't, the use of opinion in a system like that could be easily disputed

Some of the above smacks of misguided micromanagement to me and i think ultimately although it or something like it will come in…imo it will be found to be unsuitable after about the amount of time it takes to wreck the system and be shown to have little or no effect on student achievement except perhaps a detrimental one……If I was still at it, I'd be motivated to ace the assessment rather than improve teaching as thats what the system is telling me it wants - some of that might align with better teaching but quite a lot of it wouldn't imo

Not the differentiation, normal class organisation aspects mind….I can see how these are important…just the way of going about it with nonsensical form filling, box ticking administrative nonsense that will grind the energy, enthusiasm and spontaneity out of the classroom teacher while creating another layer of HSE style clipboard jockeys

The issue of equipment etc is something that drives me mental and I'm SO glad someone else has commented on this. In English schools, books to write in are usually provided, as are the plays and novels etc. The students are basically only expected to bring a pen and there's always several who never have one..ever. It's our responsibility to lay out the books/highlighters/worksheets/extra pens before they get to the lesson and have it ready when they arrive.

Regarding the behaviour sanctions, we are expected to 'build relationships' with the kids to reduce the possibility of them acting up in class. This is all well and good, but the kids are also very aware of these expectations on us, and if you've read the Secret Teacher you're aware that many kids will deliberaltey pick an observation to act up BECAUSE they know they won't be blamed. It's ALWAYS the teacher's responsibility to make them happy in the lesson.

Yeah the 'high expectations' thing is a double-edged sword. It puts horrendous pressure on pupils to the point that a Year 7 female pupil of mine (age 12) has been diagnosed with Acute Anxiety because she's terrified of failing her GCSE's. The bored kids hear the 'expectations' reminders but it gets so commonplace that they simply don't believe it anymore, or they start to feel like anything less than an A (that doesn't tick the box in other words) equals a failure.

amacca

Afroshack wrote: »

The issue of equipment etc is something that drives me mental and I'm SO glad someone else has commented on this. In English schools, books to write in are usually provided, as are the plays and novels etc. The students are basically only expected to bring a pen and there's always several who never have one..ever. It's our responsibility to lay out the books/highlighters/worksheets/extra pens before they get to the lesson and have it ready when they arrive.

Regarding the behaviour sanctions, we are expected to 'build relationships' with the kids to reduce the possibility of them acting up in class. This is all well and good, but the kids are also very aware of these expectations on us, and if you've read the Secret Teacher you're aware that many kids will deliberaltey pick an observation to act up BECAUSE they know they won't be blamed. It's ALWAYS the teacher's responsibility to make them happy in the lesson.

Yeah the 'high expectations' thing is a double-edged sword. It puts horrendous pressure on pupils to the point that a Year 7 female pupil of mine (age 12) has been diagnosed with Acute Anxiety because she's terrified of failing her GCSE's. The bored kids hear the 'expectations' reminders but it gets so commonplace that they simply don't believe it anymore, or they start to feel like anything less than an A (that doesn't tick the box in other words) equals a failure.

Pretty much as I thought……its misguided at best. And probably not going to result in better educational standards, actual education is taking a back seat because of some of this stuff.

Pinkycharm

clartharlear wrote: »

I'm not getting involved in the (vitriolic at times!) debate, but I thought some of you might be interested in the lesson observation aspect of PRP in the UK. Lessons are formally observed termly on average, but could be more if 'capability' is questioned. Much of the performance management is carried out by the middle management - a layer which basically does not exist in Ireland.

Here are the boxes we need to tick in each lesson: (the form changes substantially every year to keep up with the latest trends)

• Does the lesson start promptly and in an organised way? (TS4, TS7)
• Do the students have the correct equipment and resources to aid their learning?
• Are the students engaged with the task? (TS1,2,4)
• Has an effective starter activity been planned for? Does it build on prior learning or introduce new learning? (TS2, TS4)
• Have the learning objectives been introduced? Are they challenging (differentiated)? (TS2)
• Is the school’s policy regarding uniform and behaviour and health & Safety being adhered to? (TS2, TS7)
• Do the learning activities allow the students to meet the learning objectives? (TS4)
• Is the lesson appropriately pitched for this group? (TS2)
• Are there a range of tasks which allows all groups of learners to make progress? (TS2,4,5)
• Does each activity build on prior learning? (TS2)
• Are students taking responsibility for their own learning? (TS2)
• Are there high expectations? (TS1)
• Are the students engaged and on task? (TS4,7)
• Do the students understand the explanations provided and know what and why they are doing the tasks? (TS3)
• Does the teacher display good subject knowledge? (TS3)
• Can the teacher anticipate possible misconceptions and prevent/ deal appropriately with them? (TS3)
• Are the students making progress? What is the evidence for this? (TS2)
• How is the students’ progress being monitored? (TS6)
• How is this information being used to inform teaching and learning? (TS4)
• Are the students provided constructive feedback? (TS6)
• How are those students of whom are EAL and those with SEND, appropriately supported? (TS5)
• How do the students respond to the school’s agreed approach to rewards and sanctions? (TS7)
• Has a plenary activity been planned for and delivered? (TS4,6)
• Is there an orderly end to the lesson?
• Has all equipment and resources been safely packed away? (TS1,7)
• Has homework been set? Or handed in? (TS4)
• Does the homework activity challenge all groups of learners? (TS2,4)

Final reflection on progress…
• Have the learning objectives been met? What is the evidence for this? (TS2)
• Was there sufficient challenge within the lesson? (indicator: could students answer questions straight away or did they have to think and/ or develop their skills)


We were given an exact list of these questions when I was with hibernia for the Dip for post primary and every lesson plan we did had to be checked against this and written as a reflection. Then for our inspections the inspector had this same list and unless we ticked the majority of boxes we were deemed unsatisfactory and had to endure another inspection until more or less all of the were ticked. This list bloody terrified me!! Not sure any of the rest of the colleges use it to the extent hibernia do!!